Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(09-04-2016, 12:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:10 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-03-2016, 11:52 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-03-2016, 10:59 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-03-2016, 07:06 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: [ -> ]Right. I am MOST unlikely to adopt your laissez faire philosophy. I can only hope it is in decline now, after 36 years of predominance. The same for materialist science views.

That is because you are a nasty self-righteous totalitarian who likes to rule other people.  Sadly, your lack of knowledge on so many subjects makes you the least qualified person to do so.

You are not wrong there. From what i have seen he seem to think if you are for anything remotely to do with the 80s, not a new age hippy like person or anything that he believes in you are wrong and he is right and he sticks to it. Telling him others feel differently does not dissuade him. He is the most self centered person I have ever met. He even said he wishes he could get others to feel the way he does (regarding music.) I would not be surprised if this applies to his other beliefs. So much for being a lefty.

Now imagine growing up in the seventies surrounded by legions of idiots just like Eric the Obtuse.  Generation X should now make more sense to you.

were they all really like him?   that is a frightening thought. I am glad our kiwi boomers have more sense.

Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

(09-04-2016, 12:23 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:19 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

very different to our boomers that is for sure.

I suggest that you read Scott Adams' endorsement of Hillary.  It will give you an understanding of where the left and the right are right now in the US like few other things will.  It will also explain how short sighted Boomers like Eric the Obtuse truly are.  If you don't have to put up with this level of idiocy in New Zealand then you are truly fortunate.

(09-04-2016, 12:43 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:35 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:23 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:19 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

very different to our boomers that is for sure.

I suggest that you read Scott Adams' endorsement of Hillary.  It will give you an understanding of where the left and the right are right now in the US like few other things will.  It will also explain how short sighted Boomers like Eric the Obtuse truly are.  If you don't have to put up with this level of idiocy in New Zealand then you are truly fortunate.

Our boomers are more like your missionaries in temperament. They had settled on that ridiculous culture war by the times the 80s rolled round. They are Apollonian boomers. Dionysian prophets are seemingly more destructive.

They started off destructive and only seem to be getting worse as they age.

(09-04-2016, 12:19 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:10 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-03-2016, 11:52 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-03-2016, 10:59 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]That is because you are a nasty self-righteous totalitarian who likes to rule other people.  Sadly, your lack of knowledge on so many subjects makes you the least qualified person to do so.

You are not wrong there. From what i have seen he seem to think if you are for anything remotely to do with the 80s, not a new age hippy like person or anything that he believes in you are wrong and he is right and he sticks to it. Telling him others feel differently does not dissuade him. He is the most self centered person I have ever met. He even said he wishes he could get others to feel the way he does (regarding music.) I would not be surprised if this applies to his other beliefs. So much for being a lefty.

Now imagine growing up in the seventies surrounded by legions of idiots just like Eric the Obtuse.  Generation X should now make more sense to you.

were they all really like him?   that is a frightening thought. I am glad our kiwi boomers have more sense.

Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

First, any stereotype that mashes the blue and red boomers together is bogus.  The stagnation of the unravelling is dependent on large part on the stubborn refusal of either group to move.  I'd note that this isn't unique to the boomers.  While the younger generations reflect their opinions with different mannerisms, they are equally divided.

Woodstock and the Summer of Love reflected a very brief moment.  If you look back in history to the Great Awakening and Second Great Awakening, the emotional high of a revival lasts only a few years.  So it was with the blue boomer's brief moment.  It might have started as early as the Beatle's arrival, but by the time of Nixon's election there was a lot of disillusionment.  The fall of Saigon and Watergate definitely ended it.

The States after World War II was a place of a lot of optimistic energy.  The GI's lived President Kennedy's promise.  "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."  This involved a lot of burden bearing and tax paying.  Through the 1950s and 1960s there was a decent return on the effort.  As tax and spend liberalism was working quite well thank you, LBJ doubled down on it, taking it beyond a reasonable point.  The 1970s brought with it a bunch of failures.  Watergate, the fall of Saigon, the hostage crisis, the oil crisis, stagflation all lead to Carter's National Malaise.  This broke the nigh on endless optimism and energy not only of the blue boomers, but all generations that lived through the times, including even the GIs.  Reagan's call for lower taxes and smaller government was a major reflection of this loss of greatness,  There was also 'future shock'.  There had been too many changes in too short a time, and a lot of folk wanted stability and tradition.  Thus, the red boomers and red other generations checked the onrush of change  of the awakening, such as the women's movement and the civil rights movement.  While the blue boomers and other blue generations would rise in outrage should the red factions try to roll back the hard won gains of the awakening, the push for continued improvement and change was gone.  

Music also reflects the change.  During the peak of the awakening folk and rock music often involved itself in protest and idealism.  The Nixon disillusionment might be well marked by Carol King's Tapestry album.  Think through the various titles.  They were about self fulfillment and personal issues.  While the unravelling and the younger generations are about selfishness and self interest, this isn't altogether bad, has left behind some things that are worthy.  While I'm one to acknowledge that 95% of anything is garbage, except perhaps disco, which achieved a higher percentage, Tapestry reflects the non-garbage aspect of the supposed "cocaine based bout of hedonism".  People were stepping back from the intense emotion and trauma of the awakening, trying to find their own lives.  

While I admire and approve of what came out of the awakening time period in terms of things like civil rights, women's rights, the breaking of the domino theory and the environmental movement, you can't go all out petal to the floor indefinitely.  The awakening was intense.  The red boomers and red other generations had had enough.  It was time to abandon greatness and have a vacation.  This vacation, in my opinion, can't go on forever.

Galen and Eric tend to indulge in what I call 'vile stereotypes'.  They have spliced together the worst aspects of members of their opposite cultures into ugly caricatures, and will try to sell their venom as if it represents the culture of their political rivals.  They are highly partisan and as such are making no attempt to understand or sympathize with people who disagree with them.  If you are trying to understand the United States by splicing together Eric's vile stenotypes of red America and Galen's vile stenotypes of blue, you're not going to get a true impression.  You are going to get distorted lies and hate.  This will tell you a great deal about how partisan thinkers are full of lies and hate, but won't tell you all that much about Americans.  If you are going to pay attention to the vile stereotypes, at least balance it with what blue folk say about blue folk, and what red folk say about red folk.  You will get far better understanding of both groups if you listen to what they say about themselves rather than what is said about them by those who hate them.

The awakening was a brief though glorious dream time.  Eric is in some ways an echo of it.  Not a total echo.  Most blue boomers aren't into astrology or mysticism.  Eric has become something of a hawk of late, which is not representative of the old anti-war hippies.  Most blue boomers did grow out of the awakening mood, and got into wives, family, jobs and (shudder) disco.  They in time outgrew the disco as well.  As much as anyone on this forum, though, Eric might give you some impression of hippie culture.  I'm a blue boomer too, though.  Not all blue boomers are totally alike.  Beware vile stereotypes.  Don't judge the United States as a scrambled collection of hateful partisan propaganda.

(09-04-2016, 01:41 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The awakening was a brief though glorious dream time.  Eric is in some ways an echo of it.  Not a total echo.  Most blue boomers aren't into astrology or mysticism.  Eric has become something of a hawk of late, which is not representative of the old anti-war hippies.  Most blue boomers did grow out of the awakening mood, and got into wives, family, jobs and (shudder) disco.  They in time outgrew the disco as well.  As much as anyone on this forum, though, Eric might give you some impression of hippie culture.  I'm a blue boomer too, though.  Not all blue boomers are totally alike.  Beware vile stereotypes.  Don't judge the United States as a scrambled collection of hateful partisan propaganda.

What do you mean by that?

In the slang of the time, a 'hawk' was an advocate for the use of military force.  A 'dove' would wish to avoid use of military force.  During the awakening, the Establishment believed in the domino theory, that communism had to be resisted everywhere and always, thus they would be the hawks.  The young blue boomers were being sent to Vietnam to risk their lives for a corrupt dictatorship.  They were for the most part doves.

During the Bush 43 administration there was a debate about the Iraq war.  The Republicans leaned 'stay the course,' and would be labeled hawks using the old slang.  The Democrats leaned 'cut and run' and would be called doves.

Eric seems to be favoring intervention in Syria of late.  Now, Syria is quite different from Vietnam,  The hawk / dove debate ought to be framed in a very different way.  Still, to the extent he is advocating intervention he is going hawk, while during the awakening your typical hippie would be a dove.

Love, peace and rock and roll.  

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:19 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:10 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-03-2016, 11:52 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]You are not wrong there. From what i have seen he seem to think if you are for anything remotely to do with the 80s, not a new age hippy like person or anything that he believes in you are wrong and he is right and he sticks to it. Telling him others feel differently does not dissuade him. He is the most self centered person I have ever met. He even said he wishes he could get others to feel the way he does (regarding music.) I would not be surprised if this applies to his other beliefs. So much for being a lefty.

Now imagine growing up in the seventies surrounded by legions of idiots just like Eric the Obtuse.  Generation X should now make more sense to you.

were they all really like him?   that is a frightening thought. I am glad our kiwi boomers have more sense.

Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

Galen and Eric tend to indulge in what I call 'vile stereotypes'.  They have spliced together the worst aspects of members of their opposite cultures into ugly caricatures, and will try to sell their venom as if it represents the culture of their political rivals.  They are highly partisan and as such are making no attempt to understand or sympathize with people who disagree with them.

There is a couple of things that you are forgetting.  One is that I don't really do red or blue and both teams tend to embody the worst of the Boomers.  While their objectives may be different the means often tend to be the same.

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The awakening was a brief though glorious dream time.  Eric is in some ways an echo of it.  Not a total echo.  Most blue boomers aren't into astrology or mysticism.  Eric has become something of a hawk of late, which is not representative of the old anti-war hippies.  Most blue boomers did grow out of the awakening mood, and got into wives, family, jobs and (shudder) disco.  They in time outgrew the disco as well.  As much as anyone on this forum, though, Eric might give you some impression of hippie culture.  I'm a blue boomer too, though.  Not all blue boomers are totally alike.  Beware vile stereotypes.  Don't judge the United States as a scrambled collection of hateful partisan propaganda.

Eric the Obtuse is not merely an echo but rather still acts as if its 1968.  If he were living in Oregon he would have moved to Eugene which is where all the hippies went, this process started about 1985.  In the present Eugene seems to be populated by militant vegans.  A friend of mine was working at HP when one of them complained to her about eating a hamburger during a meeting.  In typical Xer fashion she started eating hamburgers at this vegan.  Militant vegans are the only people on Earth it is possible to eat a hamburger at.

Here is one thing you need to know about politics: Seventy percent of the population doesn't really matter because they are just picking the lesser of evils.  The remaining thirty percent are the ones that do matter because they are busy lining up the rest who do about as much thinking as a herd of cattle.  This is the crowd that tends to embody the worst of any population because they are doing even less thinking than the herd is.

Bob is looking back on the Awakening as a good time because for most of the Boomers it was.  They were simply too blitzed out or self-absorbed to notice much of anything.  The rest of us really didn't enjoy the experience.

(09-04-2016, 02:46 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 02:07 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:19 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]were they all really like him?   that is a frightening thought. I am glad our kiwi boomers have more sense.

Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

Galen and Eric tend to indulge in what I call 'vile stereotypes'.  They have spliced together the worst aspects of members of their opposite cultures into ugly caricatures, and will try to sell their venom as if it represents the culture of their political rivals.  They are highly partisan and as such are making no attempt to understand or sympathize with people who disagree with them.

There is a couple of things that you are forgetting.  One is that I don't really do red or blue and both teams  tend to embody the worst of the Boomers.  While their objectives may be different the means often tend to be the same.

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The awakening was a brief though glorious dream time.  Eric is in some ways an echo of it.  Not a total echo.  Most blue boomers aren't into astrology or mysticism.  Eric has become something of a hawk of late, which is not representative of the old anti-war hippies.  Most blue boomers did grow out of the awakening mood, and got into wives, family, jobs and (shudder) disco.  They in time outgrew the disco as well.  As much as anyone on this forum, though, Eric might give you some impression of hippie culture.  I'm a blue boomer too, though.  Not all blue boomers are totally alike.  Beware vile stereotypes.  Don't judge the United States as a scrambled collection of hateful partisan propaganda.

Eric the Obtuse is not merely an echo but rather still acts as if its 1968.  If he were living in Oregon he would have moved to Eugene which is where all the hippies went, this process started about 1985.  In the present Eugene seems to be populated by militant vegans.  A friend of mine was working at HP when one of them complained to her about eating a hamburger during a meeting.  In typical Xer fashion she started eating hamburgers at this vegan.  Militant vegans are the only people on Earth it is possible to eat a hamburger at.

Here is one thing you need to know about politics: Seventy percent of the population doesn't really matter because they are just picking the lesser of evils.  The remaining thirty percent are the ones that do matter because they are busy lining up the rest who do about as much thinking as a herd of cattle.  This is the crowd that tends to embody the worst of any population because they are doing even less thinking than the herd is.

Bob is looking back on the Awakening as a good time because for most of the Boomers it was.  They were simply too blitzed out or self-absorbed to notice much of anything.  The rest of us really didn't enjoy the experience.

I have to appreciate the rights they gave to those who had less rights. Like for us women for instance. Some may have been stoned but they must have been fighting for equality and won. They were here in NZ anyway.

Here in the US they were much more self-centered they were simply trying to save their own asses.  The rest of the time they were trying to find themselves by getting stoned, laid and listening to rock and roll.  Boomers like Bob have been spending decades trying to convince anyone who will listen that Boomers were not a disaster.  Nobody ever see themselves as a villain, its what gets them through the day.

(09-04-2016, 03:29 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 03:13 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 02:46 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 02:07 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Galen and Eric tend to indulge in what I call 'vile stereotypes'.  They have spliced together the worst aspects of members of their opposite cultures into ugly caricatures, and will try to sell their venom as if it represents the culture of their political rivals.  They are highly partisan and as such are making no attempt to understand or sympathize with people who disagree with them.

There is a couple of things that you are forgetting.  One is that I don't really do red or blue and both teams  tend to embody the worst of the Boomers.  While their objectives may be different the means often tend to be the same.

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The awakening was a brief though glorious dream time.  Eric is in some ways an echo of it.  Not a total echo.  Most blue boomers aren't into astrology or mysticism.  Eric has become something of a hawk of late, which is not representative of the old anti-war hippies.  Most blue boomers did grow out of the awakening mood, and got into wives, family, jobs and (shudder) disco.  They in time outgrew the disco as well.  As much as anyone on this forum, though, Eric might give you some impression of hippie culture.  I'm a blue boomer too, though.  Not all blue boomers are totally alike.  Beware vile stereotypes.  Don't judge the United States as a scrambled collection of hateful partisan propaganda.

Eric the Obtuse is not merely an echo but rather still acts as if its 1968.  If he were living in Oregon he would have moved to Eugene which is where all the hippies went, this process started about 1985.  In the present Eugene seems to be populated by militant vegans.  A friend of mine was working at HP when one of them complained to her about eating a hamburger during a meeting.  In typical Xer fashion she started eating hamburgers at this vegan.  Militant vegans are the only people on Earth it is possible to eat a hamburger at.

Here is one thing you need to know about politics: Seventy percent of the population doesn't really matter because they are just picking the lesser of evils.  The remaining thirty percent are the ones that do matter because they are busy lining up the rest who do about as much thinking as a herd of cattle.  This is the crowd that tends to embody the worst of any population because they are doing even less thinking than the herd is.

Bob is looking back on the Awakening as a good time because for most of the Boomers it was.  They were simply too blitzed out or self-absorbed to notice much of anything.  The rest of us really didn't enjoy the experience.

I have to appreciate the rights they gave to those who had less rights. Like for us women for instance. Some may have been stoned but they must have been fighting for equality and won. They were here in NZ anyway.

Here in the US they were much more self-centered they were simply trying to save their own asses.  The rest of the time they were trying to find themselves by getting stoned, laid and listening to rock and roll.  Boomers like Bob have been spending decades trying to convince anyone who will listen that Boomers were not a disaster.  Nobody ever see themselves as a villain, its what gets them through the day.

But they improved the opportunities available for women, blacks etc and how gays are viewed etc right? I mean clearly you guys are not living with the mind set that was rampant back in the 50s on a woman's "place" and less rights for them, women and gays were viewed as unhealthy. Clearly they have had some good influence.

If you want to see something interesting do a little research.  Look at black poverty rates through the twentieth century and tell me if you notice anything unusual.  I knew women who lived before the sixties and they never complained about being oppressed and did not like the feminists of the sixties and later.  As for the gays, they were never looking for tolerance but rather approval which I don't think is ever really going to happen.

You may not realize it but the political correctness is really beginning to wear thin in the US.  No doubt a reaction to the last fifty years.

(09-04-2016, 04:00 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Approval is becoming more wide spread. As for women, there also were enough to complain for it to be discussed in the first place. Those who did not think thy were oppressed simply were content with their life as it was. Those who were not spoke for those who wanted more opportunity. Which i am thankful for as a woman who likes the fact i can easily be accepted at universities and positions in the workforce which were originally thought of as male dominated (concept artist for me). You are actually talking to a feminist. One who wants equal opportunity for all...not just women.

It is a little more complicated than that.  Once during the eighties the news drones were going on about how bad Generation X was turning out.  Truth is, the Boomers had freaked the GIs out and we got to take the heat for it, nothing really odd about that. Boomers fuck up and Xers have to deal with the mess.  My great -grandmother then said "If no one is home raising the kids then what do you expect."  This may surprise you but many of the GI women did in fact work, they just didn't do it while there were children in the house because it was a responsibility that could not be avoided.  Boomer women did try to have it all and it did not work out well for the children.  Something that you might want to think about, particularly if you want a family.

You would do well to spend some time contemplating what the term "flyover country" really means.  New Zealand is far more homogeneous than the US ever was.  The fifties were probably as close as the US ever came to having one culture.  Personally I would rather live in flyover country because Detroit is toast and Chicago is circling the drain and as the US empire ends others will follow.  I am willing to bet that everyone of the cities currently run by the Democrats will self-destruct in the coming decades.  Not sure if I will live long enough to see all of it but I think that you will.

There are many people that dislike Milo but his data are solid.

(09-04-2016, 05:01 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]of course GI women worked, but in what fields? Back then the sexes were rigidly within certain job roles. Men and women mind you. So not just women. But women were expected to stay at home, be a breeder and take care of children and husband. If they did not do that it was generally thought that she was not taking care of her family and was shamed for it. I actually did research on this for my final year in my Bachelor degree.

Well if they didn't do this then there would be no next generation of human beings.  The view at the time was that someone had to raise the children and someone else had to acquire the resources. At that point in time most of the jobs required physical strength or someone to put in many hours.  Put yourself in the place of an employer and consider the question carefully.  What you see as simple prejudice was a recognition women and men are not interchangeable parts.  As for the shaming part, that was a consequence of not wanting to deal with the delinquents that would show up if the children were not cared for.

Women, when all else is equal, do not make the same choices as men.  This is true even now and it  still has economic consequences that the left, in particular, do not want to recognize.

I spent many hours with the Lost and GIs, trust me on this, they did not see the world as you do.

(09-04-2016, 05:35 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:28 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:01 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]of course GI women worked, but in what fields? Back then the sexes were rigidly within certain job roles. Men and women mind you. So not just women. But women were expected to stay at home, be a breeder and take care of children and husband. If they did not do that it was generally thought that she was not taking care of her family and was shamed for it. I actually did research on this for my final year in my Bachelor degree.

Well if they didn't do this then there would be no next generation of human beings.  The view at the time was that someone had to raise the children and someone else had to acquire the resources. At that point in time most of the jobs required physical strength or someone to put in many hours.  Put yourself in the place of an employer and consider the question carefully.  What you see as simple prejudice was a recognition women and men are not interchangeable parts.  As for the shaming part, that was a consequence of not wanting to deal with the delinquents that would show up if the children were not cared for.

Women, when all else is equal, do not make the same choices as men.  This is true even now and it  still has economic consequences that the left, in particular, do not want to recognize.

I spent many hours with the Lost and GIs, trust me on this, they did not see the world as you do.

it should not be expected that women stay at home. it was back then.   The whole point was to give us choices and more freedom. Something I enjoy as a young 21st century woman. Elaborate please on "Women, when all else is equal, do not make the same choices as men."

I thought the Milo video would have made that clear.  Ask yourself this question: Do more men or women die in the workplace?  Do a little research and tell me what the answer is.

(09-04-2016, 05:51 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:40 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:35 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:28 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:01 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]of course GI women worked, but in what fields? Back then the sexes were rigidly within certain job roles. Men and women mind you. So not just women. But women were expected to stay at home, be a breeder and take care of children and husband. If they did not do that it was generally thought that she was not taking care of her family and was shamed for it. I actually did research on this for my final year in my Bachelor degree.

Well if they didn't do this then there would be no next generation of human beings.  The view at the time was that someone had to raise the children and someone else had to acquire the resources. At that point in time most of the jobs required physical strength or someone to put in many hours.  Put yourself in the place of an employer and consider the question carefully.  What you see as simple prejudice was a recognition women and men are not interchangeable parts.  As for the shaming part, that was a consequence of not wanting to deal with the delinquents that would show up if the children were not cared for.

Women, when all else is equal, do not make the same choices as men.  This is true even now and it  still has economic consequences that the left, in particular, do not want to recognize.

I spent many hours with the Lost and GIs, trust me on this, they did not see the world as you do.

it should not be expected that women stay at home. it was back then.   The whole point was to give us choices and more freedom. Something I enjoy as a young 21st century woman. Elaborate please on "Women, when all else is equal, do not make the same choices as men."

I thought the Milo video would have made that clear.  Ask yourself this question: Do more men or women die in the workplace?  Do a little research and tell me what the answer is.

Sorry but i have already done my research and what i noted are also factors into the wage gap. I am glad that fellow millie women do not want to go back to older days where we were the house wife and that we are not the knuckle draggers who want to have less freedom to do as we wish with our lives. I personally refuse to have kids and have them chain me down and take away my freedom to do as i wish with my life. I will always push for female freedom from the traditional housewife belief. If others wish to do so whatever. It is their life. But thankfully millie women were liberated from being pushed to be less than what we can be. Thank you boomers for that societal freedom! As for those who want us women to go back into the kitchen and be the servant to the man FUCK YOU.

You are missing the point.  I asked that question to make a point.  Women do not tend to take risky jobs at the same rate that men do.  This has long been known.  Women do not fish for crab or work on oil rigs because they are not allowed, but with notable exceptions, they simply can not do the work required.  This was even more true in the nineteenth and early twentieth century because most jobs were like this.  Many other jobs without these physical constraints simply required more than what we would now consider the standard eight hours.

In 1916 my great-grandmother was cooking for about a dozen farmhands, not an easy job, employed by my great-grandfather, a man I never met.  Now contemplate the photos below and consider whether or not you could have handled what my great-grandfather and the men he hired were doing.  Much of what you were taught and think of as simple prejudice was the product of technological and economic realities that you haven't experienced and don't understand.

I knew men and women from this time and they did not consider themselves to be oppressed.  They were simply doing what needed to be done to survive and raise a family.  While conditions in many cases have changed the Boomers solution to what they saw as oppression has created some serious problems and they need to be resolved. By the way neither my grandmother or great-grandmother considered what they were doing as serving men.  In their cases it seemed to be more like the other way around.  Which makes sense since men who did not support their family were shamed by just about everyone.

Try to remember that unlike you, I knew these people.  As a consequence I had the good fortune to know them and much of the world they lived in.  

(09-04-2016, 02:07 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]There is a couple of things that you are forgetting.  One is that I don't really do red or blue and both teams  tend to embody the worst of the Boomers.  While their objectives may be different the means often tend to be the same....  

Eric the Obtuse is not merely an echo but rather still acts as if its 1968.  If he were living in Oregon he would have moved to Eugene which is where all the hippies went, this process started about 1985.  In the present Eugene seems to be populated by militant vegans.  A friend of mine was working at HP when one of them complained to her about eating a hamburger during a meeting.  In typical Xer fashion she started eating hamburgers at this vegan.  Militant vegans are the only people on Earth it is possible to eat a hamburger at.

Here is one thing you need to know about politics: Seventy percent of the population doesn't really matter because they are just picking the lesser of evils.  The remaining thirty percent are the ones that do matter because they are busy lining up the rest who do about as much thinking as a herd of cattle.  This is the crowd that tends to embody the worst of any population because they are doing even less thinking than the herd is.

Bob is looking back on the Awakening as a good time because for most of the Boomers it was.  They were simply too blitzed out or self-absorbed to notice much of anything.  The rest of us really didn't enjoy the experience.

Hmm...  I hadn't really noted the similarity between bigotry and partisanship before.  They are linked by the vile stereotype, where one sees one's own group as favorable but builds an ugly idea of what the opposite group is like.

I don't see age stereotyping as essentially different from bigotry by race, gender, religion or most anything else.  One aspect of S&H theory I do not like is how it attracts generational haters, those who broadly hate people based entirely on age.

Hey, I have my differences with Eric too.  However, I see him more as a unique individual than a typical representative of anything.  He's not a typical boomer or a typical Democrat or a typical mystic.  He's...   Eric.  

I'm also with Taramarie with respect to women choosing their own role.  The 1950s and 1960s brought a bunch of labor saving devices for the home and birth control.  Before that time a strong difference in gender roles made sense.  It was never moral, but it was perhaps inevitable.  Housekeeping was a full time job.  It is no longer.  I won't say the change wasn't without problems and side effects that still linger and ferment.  It brought with it a large increase in the labor force.  Suddenly there were more people looking for jobs.  The laws of supply and demand inevitably placed less worth on the value of work.  Our current problems with not enough good jobs generating living wages isn't entirely due to labor saving devices in the home and smaller family sizes.  There are labor saving devices in the working place as well.  Technology is changing the work place big time, and work culture of my youth is gone and not coming back.  Huston, we have a problem.

But my values honor the words of Thomas Jefferson.  "All humans are created equal."  Well, something like that.  Anyway, I reject solving the problem of technology resulting in excess labor with a return of gender barriers.  I am disgusted by those who want to try.

Anyway, I dislike bigotry and sexism.  I am aware that you sincerely feel your hatred, and truly believe in your stereotypical thinking.  So did the Nazis and the KKK  I do not consider sincerity a worthy excuse for that way of judging and treating people.  Preaching hate isn't the answer.  

I can sympathize with your seeing Eric as rigid.  This part of your perception of Eric was likely caused be Eric's rigidity.  You too seem rigid.  

Eric does somewhat echo the mannerisms and methods of the awakening.  However, most blue boomers have long since moved on.

(09-04-2016, 05:40 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:35 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:28 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 05:01 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]of course GI women worked, but in what fields? Back then the sexes were rigidly within certain job roles. Men and women mind you. So not just women. But women were expected to stay at home, be a breeder and take care of children and husband. If they did not do that it was generally thought that she was not taking care of her family and was shamed for it. I actually did research on this for my final year in my Bachelor degree.

Well if they didn't do this then there would be no next generation of human beings.  The view at the time was that someone had to raise the children and someone else had to acquire the resources. At that point in time most of the jobs required physical strength or someone to put in many hours.  Put yourself in the place of an employer and consider the question carefully.  What you see as simple prejudice was a recognition women and men are not interchangeable parts.  As for the shaming part, that was a consequence of not wanting to deal with the delinquents that would show up if the children were not cared for.

Women, when all else is equal, do not make the same choices as men.  This is true even now and it  still has economic consequences that the left, in particular, do not want to recognize.

I spent many hours with the Lost and GIs, trust me on this, they did not see the world as you do.

it should not be expected that women stay at home. it was back then.   The whole point was to give us choices and more freedom. Something I enjoy as a young 21st century woman. Elaborate please on "Women, when all else is equal, do not make the same choices as men."

I thought the Milo video would have made that clear.  Ask yourself this question: Do more men or women die in the workplace?  Do a little research and tell me what the answer is.

Fewer people are dying in the workplace than once did. Two big contributors to this trend are the reductions in death from vehicle collisions and from deaths from criminal homicides. Consider a reduction in armed robberies and cops having bullet-proof vests as the cause.

Workplace hazards relate closely to the sort of political regime in place. Where workers have few rights, industrial workers, miners, and construction workers face more hazards on the job.

(09-04-2016, 02:07 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:19 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:10 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Now imagine growing up in the seventies surrounded by legions of idiots just like Eric the Obtuse.  Generation X should now make more sense to you.

were they all really like him?   that is a frightening thought. I am glad our kiwi boomers have more sense.

Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

Galen and Eric tend to indulge in what I call 'vile stereotypes'.  They have spliced together the worst aspects of members of their opposite cultures into ugly caricatures, and will try to sell their venom as if it represents the culture of their political rivals.  They are highly partisan and as such are making no attempt to understand or sympathize with people who disagree with them.

There is a couple of things that you are forgetting.  One is that I don't really do red or blue and both teams  tend to embody the worst of the Boomers.  While their objectives may be different the means often tend to be the same.

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The awakening was a brief though glorious dream time.  Eric is in some ways an echo of it.  Not a total echo.  Most blue boomers aren't into astrology or mysticism.  Eric has become something of a hawk of late, which is not representative of the old anti-war hippies.  Most blue boomers did grow out of the awakening mood, and got into wives, family, jobs and (shudder) disco.  They in time outgrew the disco as well.  As much as anyone on this forum, though, Eric might give you some impression of hippie culture.  I'm a blue boomer too, though.  Not all blue boomers are totally alike.  Beware vile stereotypes.  Don't judge the United States as a scrambled collection of hateful partisan propaganda.

Eric the (Green) is not merely an echo but rather still acts as if its 1968.  If he were living in Oregon he would have moved to Eugene which is where all the hippies went, this process started about 1985.  In the present Eugene seems to be populated by militant vegans.  A friend of mine was working at HP when one of them complained to her about eating a hamburger during a meeting.  In typical Xer fashion she started eating hamburgers at this vegan.  Militant vegans are the only people on Earth it is possible to eat a hamburger at.

Here is one thing you need to know about politics: Seventy percent of the population doesn't really matter because they are just picking the lesser of evils.  The remaining thirty percent are the ones that do matter because they are busy lining up the rest who do about as much thinking as a herd of cattle.  This is the crowd that tends to embody the worst of any population because they are doing even less thinking than the herd is.

Bob is looking back on the Awakening as a good time because for most of the Boomers it was.  They were simply too blitzed out or self-absorbed to notice much of anything.  The rest of us really didn't enjoy the experience.

You are trafficking in stereotypes again.

1. People can be priced into a vegan diet. It is safer and less expensive, and probably healthier. I'm from a farm family, and at my age going vegetarian would be almost as much a denial of the family culture as getting involved in an interracial marriage.

2. People are not voting for the 'lesser evil'; a very bad nominee like George McGovern got 37.52% of the popular vote in 1972. 36.54% of the electorate voted for Alf Landon against the FDR steamroller in 1936. I'm not saying that either was a really bad politician; it's just that everything went wrong with them as campaigners.  Do you really want to say that people who voted for Landon or McGovern were parts of the herd?

You are likely to find demographics (college-educated people in 1936 for Landon, blacks in 1972 for McGovern) who 'voted wrong'.

3. The Boom  Awakening may have been the optimal time for me to be a teenager. Even my authoritarian parents had to lighten up a bit.

(09-04-2016, 05:21 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 02:07 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:19 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 12:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]were they all really like him?   that is a frightening thought. I am glad our kiwi boomers have more sense.

Yes, for the most part, and it never really ended.  What happened is that once the question of their fighting in the Vietnam war to their satisfaction and defeated the hated Nixon they then took the rest of the decade off in a cocaine fueled bout of hedonism.  By 1982 they all got religion and half of them went back to Christianity.  It was the perfect set up for the Culture Wars and the current situation.

Galen and Eric tend to indulge in what I call 'vile stereotypes'.  They have spliced together the worst aspects of members of their opposite cultures into ugly caricatures, and will try to sell their venom as if it represents the culture of their political rivals.  They are highly partisan and as such are making no attempt to understand or sympathize with people who disagree with them.

There is a couple of things that you are forgetting.  One is that I don't really do red or blue and both teams  tend to embody the worst of the Boomers.  While their objectives may be different the means often tend to be the same.

(09-04-2016, 01:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The awakening was a brief though glorious dream time.  Eric is in some ways an echo of it.  Not a total echo.  Most blue boomers aren't into astrology or mysticism.  Eric has become something of a hawk of late, which is not representative of the old anti-war hippies.  Most blue boomers did grow out of the awakening mood, and got into wives, family, jobs and (shudder) disco.  They in time outgrew the disco as well.  As much as anyone on this forum, though, Eric might give you some impression of hippie culture.  I'm a blue boomer too, though.  Not all blue boomers are totally alike.  Beware vile stereotypes.  Don't judge the United States as a scrambled collection of hateful partisan propaganda.

Eric the (Green) is not merely an echo but rather still acts as if its 1968.  If he were living in Oregon he would have moved to Eugene which is where all the hippies went, this process started about 1985.  In the present Eugene seems to be populated by militant vegans.  A friend of mine was working at HP when one of them complained to her about eating a hamburger during a meeting.  In typical Xer fashion she started eating hamburgers at this vegan.  Militant vegans are the only people on Earth it is possible to eat a hamburger at.

Here is one thing you need to know about politics: Seventy percent of the population doesn't really matter because they are just picking the lesser of evils.  The remaining thirty percent are the ones that do matter because they are busy lining up the rest who do about as much thinking as a herd of cattle.  This is the crowd that tends to embody the worst of any population because they are doing even less thinking than the herd is.

Bob is looking back on the Awakening as a good time because for most of the Boomers it was.  They were simply too blitzed out or self-absorbed to notice much of anything.  The rest of us really didn't enjoy the experience.

You are trafficking in stereotypes again.

1. People can be priced into a vegan diet. It is safer and less expensive, and probably healthier. I'm from a farm family, and at my age going vegetarian would be almost as much a denial of the family culture as getting involved in an interracial marriage.

2. People are not voting for the 'lesser evil'; a very bad nominee like George McGovern got 37.52% of the popular vote in 1972. 36.54% of the electorate voted for Alf Landon against the FDR steamroller in 1936. I'm not saying that either was a really bad politician; it's just that everything went wrong with them as campaigners.  Do you really want to say that people who voted for Landon or McGovern were parts of the herd?

You are likely to find demographics (college-educated people in 1936 for Landon, blacks in 1972 for McGovern) who 'voted wrong'.

3. The Boom  Awakening may have been the optimal time for me to be a teenager. Even my authoritarian parents had to lighten up a bit.

I have encountered plenty of militant vegans myself in the People's Republic of Portland and they behave in much the same way out of the same sense of outraged moral superiority.  There just seem to be more of them in Eugene.  Ironically, one group that often goes vegetarian and does not generally behave this way are the Seventh-Day Adventists.

Given the rather limited choices, in reality they are voting for the lesser of evils.  Clearly there is some disagreement on what lesser evil might actually be.  In the end the herd tends to either vote for one of the major parties and refuse in general to consider any other possibility.  When I ask people about that they invariably tell me that they don't want to vote for someone who can't possibly win.  Sounds like herd behavior to me.

As I said before, it may have been good for you but it tended to suck for anybody else.  The usual self-absorbed behavior I have come to expect from Boomers in general.

(09-04-2016, 09:37 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It was certainly not self absorbed to give people more civil rights like for women such as myself. Heck even men as they can now go into jobs that were considered "women's work" back in the day. They gave us more freedom culturally. People who want to go back to older days when a mans place was ...... or a woman's place was ..... are insane and will hopefully die off. I will not have my rights taken away from me. People should be allowed to do whatever they wish. It is not self absorbed to give equal rights to people. You are just seeing it through the eyes of a child who went through it at the worst possible time. But the result meant future generations could enjoy that freedom. I am seeing it through the eyes of a child who experienced it after the dust had settled and i could enjoy more freedom than what earlier generations had experienced and I deeply appreciate it.

Choices have consequences and they are not always good.  For what you see as good coming from the Awakening there were even more negative consequences.  Maybe in New Zealand it may have played out but that isn't true in the US.  For one thing the Boomers flat refusal to understand economic consequences is still playing out.  I suspect that choices will become more constrained as the last fifty years of fiscal mismanagement land on our heads.  The Boomers will refuse to accept any responsibility and demand that we pay for their retirement.

(09-04-2016, 09:37 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 07:47 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]I have encountered plenty of militant vegans myself in the People's Republic of Portland and they behave in much the same way out of the same sense of outraged moral superiority.  There just seem to be more of them in Eugene.  Ironically, one group that often goes vegetarian and does not generally behave this way are the Seventh-Day Adventists.

Given the rather limited choices, in reality they are voting for the lesser of evils.  Clearly there is some disagreement on what lesser evil might actually be.  In the end the herd tends to either vote for one of the major parties and refuse in general to consider any other possibility.  When I ask people about that they invariably tell me that they don't want to vote for someone who can't possibly win.  Sounds like herd behavior to me.

As I said before, it may have been good for you but it tended to suck for anybody else.  The usual self-absorbed behavior I have come to expect from Boomers in general.

It was certainly not self absorbed to give people more civil rights like for women such as myself. Heck even men as they can now go into jobs that were considered "women's work" back in the day. They gave us more freedom culturally. People who want to go back to older days when a mans place was ...... or a woman's place was ..... are insane and will hopefully die off. I will not have my rights taken away from me. People should be allowed to do whatever they wish. It is not self absorbed to give equal rights to people. You are just seeing it through the eyes of a child who went through it at the worst possible time. But the result meant future generations could enjoy that freedom. I am seeing it through the eyes of a child who experienced it after the dust had settled and i could enjoy more freedom than what earlier generations had experienced and I deeply appreciate it.

I certainly have much more sympathy with women fighting the old traditional cultural limits than I have for meat eaters. Who is the self observed one here? Do you want sympathy and a kleenex to dry your tears?

Nice pictures though. I've been aware of how the technology shift from horses to tractors freed up a lot of manpower. Lots of folks moved from the farms to the cities at the peak of the Industrial Revolution. FDR's New Deal actually started with more emphasis on rural area problems. Improved technology resulted in improved efficiency and production. Neat, right? Folks had to go with the new stuff to compete. Except the laws of supply and demand turned increased production into decreased prices and less profits. A lot of the move to the cities was had to rather than want to. Good to catch a glimpse of the transition period equipment.

(09-04-2016, 10:33 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 09:37 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-04-2016, 07:47 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]I have encountered plenty of militant vegans myself in the People's Republic of Portland and they behave in much the same way out of the same sense of outraged moral superiority.  There just seem to be more of them in Eugene.  Ironically, one group that often goes vegetarian and does not generally behave this way are the Seventh-Day Adventists.

Given the rather limited choices, in reality they are voting for the lesser of evils.  Clearly there is some disagreement on what lesser evil might actually be.  In the end the herd tends to either vote for one of the major parties and refuse in general to consider any other possibility.  When I ask people about that they invariably tell me that they don't want to vote for someone who can't possibly win.  Sounds like herd behavior to me.

As I said before, it may have been good for you but it tended to suck for anybody else.  The usual self-absorbed behavior I have come to expect from Boomers in general.

It was certainly not self absorbed to give people more civil rights like for women such as myself. Heck even men as they can now go into jobs that were considered "women's work" back in the day. They gave us more freedom culturally. People who want to go back to older days when a mans place was ...... or a woman's place was ..... are insane and will hopefully die off. I will not have my rights taken away from me. People should be allowed to do whatever they wish. It is not self absorbed to give equal rights to people. You are just seeing it through the eyes of a child who went through it at the worst possible time. But the result meant future generations could enjoy that freedom. I am seeing it through the eyes of a child who experienced it after the dust had settled and i could enjoy more freedom than what earlier generations had experienced and I deeply appreciate it.

I certainly have much more sympathy with women fighting the old traditional cultural limits than I have for meat eaters.  Who is the self observed one here?  Do you want sympathy and a kleenex to dry your tears?

Nice pictures though.  I've been aware of how the technology shift from horses to tractors freed up a lot of manpower.  Lots of folks moved from the farms to the cities at the peak of the Industrial Revolution.  FDR's New Deal actually started with more emphasis on rural area problems.  Improved technology resulted in improved efficiency and production.  Neat, right?  Folks had to go with the new stuff to compete.  Except the laws of supply and demand turned increased production into decreased prices and less profits.  A lot of the move to the cities was had to rather than want to.  Good to catch a glimpse of the transition period equipment.

Its more complicated than that cultures are shaped more than is generally understood by economics and technology.  So are governments and legal systems because they depend on the logic of violence.  Boomers got away with what they did because the circumstances were just right for it.  Even then they still made a huge mess that will only get worse as conditions change because they borrowed from the future to indulge themselves.

I would make a suggestion for cutting costs in correctional facilities: put convicted offenders on vegetarian diets.