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(11-05-2016, 03:17 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Why do you think that is? Regarding the difference in attitude that the lost had for the missionaries (majority of course) compared to how  some xers feel about the boomers? Could it be that they messed up the culture and economy, (other generations participated of course), they were along for the ride in the mess up and they never quite got around to fixing it, creating instability that did not favour Xers? Of course boomers being such a massive generation who were the elders taking power and were at the core of this cultural change they were blamed for the mess. In NZ it is a similar story yet ended quite differently. Thankfully ours wanted to fix long standing issues and put them into law to cement them. Majority agreed with the consensus because the people were willing to accept it compared to other years. There was one thing though they could never crack down on and that was drugs.

From what I know of history and comments from GI and Lost that I knew, the Missionary Generation was never quite as insane as the Boomers got.  Unlike the Boomers they did not think that society could arbitrarily be altered.  This was particularly true after the massive failure of Prohibition.  If anything the religious revival associated with them was something to be expected of American culture.  What the Boomers did was a complete departure and their so-called spiritualism was more a cover for their hedonism than anything else.
(11-05-2016, 09:30 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 03:17 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Why do you think that is? Regarding the difference in attitude that the lost had for the missionaries (majority of course) compared to how  some xers feel about the boomers? Could it be that they messed up the culture and economy, (other generations participated of course), they were along for the ride in the mess up and they never quite got around to fixing it, creating instability that did not favour Xers? Of course boomers being such a massive generation who were the elders taking power and were at the core of this cultural change they were blamed for the mess. In NZ it is a similar story yet ended quite differently. Thankfully ours wanted to fix long standing issues and put them into law to cement them. Majority agreed with the consensus because the people were willing to accept it compared to other years. There was one thing though they could never crack down on and that was drugs.

From what I know of history and comments from GI and Lost that I knew, the Missionary Generation was never quite as insane as the Boomers got.  Unlike the Boomers they did not think that society could arbitrarily be altered.  This was particularly true after the massive failure of Prohibition.  If anything the religious revival associated with them was something to be expected of American culture.  What the Boomers did was a complete departure and their so-called spiritualism was more a cover for their hedonism than anything else.
Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric the Obtuse.  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric the Obtuse.  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.
Yeah because reality is turning out to be not what they wanted. Well we cannot have it all our way and life is unexpected. When trying to change a culture it should be up to the people what happens. Not just individuals who think they know what is best. Same shoe does not fit every foot after all. I tell boomers that (those who are highly idealistic) but they do not listen.
(11-05-2016, 10:29 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah because reality is turning out to be not what they wanted. Well we cannot have it all our way and life is unexpected. When trying to change a culture it should be up to the people what happens. Not just individuals who think they know what is best. Same shoe does not fit every foot after all. I tell boomers that (those who are highly idealistic) but they do not listen.

That is it.  The primary lesson Generation X understands instinctively is beyond most Boomers.
(11-05-2016, 10:40 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:29 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah because reality is turning out to be not what they wanted. Well we cannot have it all our way and life is unexpected. When trying to change a culture it should be up to the people what happens. Not just individuals who think they know what is best. Same shoe does not fit every foot after all. I tell boomers that (those who are highly idealistic) but they do not listen.

That is it.  The primary lesson Generation X understands instinctively is beyond most Boomers.
and some of us millennials too understand that lesson Wink
(11-05-2016, 10:47 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:40 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:29 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah because reality is turning out to be not what they wanted. Well we cannot have it all our way and life is unexpected. When trying to change a culture it should be up to the people what happens. Not just individuals who think they know what is best. Same shoe does not fit every foot after all. I tell boomers that (those who are highly idealistic) but they do not listen.

That is it.  The primary lesson Generation X understands instinctively is beyond most Boomers.
and some of us millennials too understand that lesson Wink

I meet more sane Millies than not, particularly if they are not on a college campus. Big Grin The hard part is getting them to think, but they tend to get better as they get older.  It amazing how much of a clue one gets when life kicks the shit out you.  Unfortunately, I think life is going to be harsh for everyone and the Millies simply haven't had the time to prepare.  Xers have had that time and many of us have done so because we knew what was coming.
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric the Obtuse.  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.

You are having a nice little conversation with Galen, but don't assume he's any more representative of all Americans than Eric.  In my youth I flirted with several variations of New Age and spiritualist practice, from Taoism to Born Again Christian, to Wiccan.  There was a good deal of variety and growth, at least if you accept that the goals of spiritualism can lead to growth.  If your values aren't compatible with spiritualist goals and methods, as Galen's aren't, it is easy to reject spiritualism as 'pretty empty'.  Then again, if one is deeply partisan in any set of values, others pursuing any sort of conflicting values would be perceived of as 'pretty empty' or worse...  Far worse.  Just ask Eric if living one's life without using spiritualist means to seek enlightenment and wisdom would be 'pretty empty'.

Me, I chose science over spiritualism, but I can quite understand others making other choices.

I would note many Red Boomer's pursuit of fundamentalist religion includes using the government to harass and oppress those with conflicting values.  This is in strong conflict much of the Blue Boomer's religious and spiritual diversity.  What you see with Hillary welcoming minorities while Trump flirts with racism is part of the red/blue divide.  It exists in religious perspectives as much as it does in race and gender.  The various flavors of blue tinted spiritualists will be happily doing their own thing, while the red tinted fundamentalists will be trying to use the law to force their religious beliefs on everybody.

And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity.  This is also hardly unique to the Boomers, you can see it in the other generations as well.  One would like to think that the notion that America is a white christian nation is unique to the Ku Klux Klan, but it isn't.  It's a common part of the red perspective.  It's the difference between "If I'm right, and it is beyond question that I'm right, then everyone who disagrees is wrong" and "Let's all do our own thing."  There is a theme, visible in Trump's message, that everyone has their place, and the place of the white christian males is on top.  This is an old element of America, but not part of the values of everyone in America.

Also, stereotyping any group as being just like Eric would stand as example of vile stereotyping.  This isn't to say Eric is necessarily vile, but to say that bunches of people are just like him is vile stereotyping.  Eric is quite unique.  Galen might be deep enough into partisan stereotype thinking that he can't perceive a difference between various flavors of spiritualism and various practitioners of spiritualism.  "They all look alike to me."  No.  Spiritualists are unique and diverse too.  Real people.  They ought to be respected like real people.  (I know.  In Eric's case, this might require more spiritual enlightenment than most people possess...)

And yes, I've got some anger management problems.  Bigots make me angry, whether they are focused on race, gender, religion, culture, or what not.  Well to do people trying to make sure less well off people don't have health care makes me angry.  After Bush 41 and Bush 43 ruined the economy by pushing trickle down economics, those who want to go with trickle down again makes me angry.  Politicians who habitually and casually lie make me angry.

There is much to be angry about.

And that may be one thing that the Boomers did learn in their youth, if a whole bunch of people don't get angry, then nothing will change.
(11-05-2016, 11:03 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:47 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:40 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:29 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah because reality is turning out to be not what they wanted. Well we cannot have it all our way and life is unexpected. When trying to change a culture it should be up to the people what happens. Not just individuals who think they know what is best. Same shoe does not fit every foot after all. I tell boomers that (those who are highly idealistic) but they do not listen.

That is it.  The primary lesson Generation X understands instinctively is beyond most Boomers.
and some of us millennials too understand that lesson Wink

I meet more sane Millies than not, particularly if they are not on a college campus. Big Grin The hard part is getting them to think, but they tend to get better as they get older.  It amazing how much of a clue one gets when life kicks the shit out you.  Unfortunately, I think life is going to be harsh for everyone and the Millies simply haven't had the time to prepare.  Xers have had that time and many of us have done so because we knew what was coming.
Old habits die hard. We were taught group think. That has been my experience with other millies here in NZ from day one. So I am not very good at cryptic discussion for example. Nor handling failure on my own to some degree nor was I prepared for what was out there. At all. I also need to be provided with structure and when not provided and I do not have luck with the (usually boomer boss or teacher) I provide it for myself or ask others for more info so I save myself from going through my first experience which involved a boomer boss not giving me any instruction, no structure and she blew me up to the point I was in tears. I knew no better.
(11-05-2016, 11:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric the Obtuse.  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.

You are having a nice little conversation with Galen, but don't assume he's any more representative of all Americans than Eric.  In my youth I flirted with several variations of New Age and spiritualist practice, from Taoism to Born Again Christian, to Wiccan.  There was a good deal of variety and growth, at least if you accept that the goals of spiritualism can lead to growth.  If your values aren't compatible with spiritualist goals and methods, as Galen's aren't, it is easy to reject spiritualism as 'pretty empty'.  Then again, if one is deeply partisan in any set of values, others pursuing any sort of conflicting values would be perceived of as 'pretty empty' or worse...  Far worse.  Just ask Eric if living one's life without using spiritualist means to seek enlightenment and wisdom would be 'pretty empty'.

Me, I chose science over spiritualism, but I can quite understand others making other choices.

I would note many Red Boomer's pursuit of fundamentalist religion includes using the government to harass and oppress those with conflicting values.  This is in strong conflict much of the Blue Boomer's religious and spiritual diversity.  What you see with Hillary welcoming minorities while Trump flirts with racism is part of the red/blue divide.  It exists in religious perspectives as much as it does in race and gender.  The various flavors of blue tinted spiritualists will be happily doing their own thing, while the red tinted fundamentalists will be trying to use the law to force their religious beliefs on everybody.

And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity.  This is also hardly unique to the Boomers, you can see it in the other generations as well.  One would like to think that the notion that America is a white christian nation is unique to the Ku Klux Klan, but it isn't.  It's a common part of the red perspective.  It's the difference between "If I'm right, and it is beyond question that I'm right, then everyone who disagrees is wrong" and "Let's all do our own thing."  There is a theme, visible in Trump's message, that everyone has their place, and the place of the white christian males is on top.  This is an old element of America, but not part of the values of everyone in America.

Also, stereotyping any group as being just like Eric would stand as example of vile stereotyping.  This isn't to say Eric is necessarily vile, but to say that bunches of people are just like him is vile stereotyping.  Eric is quite unique.  Galen might be deep enough into partisan stereotype thinking that he can't perceive a difference between various flavors of spiritualism and various practitioners of spiritualism.  "They all look alike to me."  No.  Spiritualists are unique and diverse too.  Real people.  They ought to be respected like real people.  (I know.  In Eric's case, this might require more spiritual enlightenment than most people possess...)

And yes, I've got some anger management problems.  Bigots make me angry, whether they are focused on race, gender, religion, culture, or what not.  Well to do people trying to make sure less well off people don't have health care makes me angry.  After Bush 41 and Bush 43 ruined the economy by pushing trickle down economics, those who want to go with trickle down again makes me angry.  Politicians who habitually and casually lie make me angry.

There is much to be angry about.

And that may be one thing that the Boomers did learn in their youth, if a whole bunch of people don't get angry, then nothing will change.
Before I read your comment let me remind you I simply listen to everyone. Why? Because I may learn something. I tend to wait a while before I make a judgement unless something is blatantly obvious. Ok now I will read your comment.
(11-05-2016, 11:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric the Obtuse.  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.

And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity.  This is also hardly unique to the Boomers, you can see it in the other generations as well.  One would like to think that the notion that America is a white christian nation is unique to the Ku Klux Klan, but it isn't.  It's a common part of the red perspective.  It's the difference between "If I'm right, and it is beyond question that I'm right, then everyone who disagrees is wrong" and "Let's all do our own thing."  There is a theme, visible in Trump's message, that everyone has their place, and the place of the white christian males is on top.  This is an old element of America, but not part of the values of everyone in America.

There is very little difference in Red or Blue Boomers, they only differ in the goals they choose to pursue. With Boomers it is always: I am right and everyone else is wrong.  Don't have much use for either of them.

I was speaking of a very specific form of spiritualism.  The America of the nineteenth and early twentieth century was very much a Christian nation.  As for what Trump is, she can look up his speeches on Youtube and work that out for herself.
(11-05-2016, 11:41 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]There is very little difference in Red or Blue Boomers, they only differ in the goals they choose to pursue. With Boomers it is always: I am right and everyone else is wrong.  Don't have much use for either of them.

I was speaking of a very specific form of spiritualism.  The America of the nineteenth and early twentieth century was very much a Christian nation.  As for what Trump is, she can look up his speeches on Youtube and work that out for herself.

So, what you are saying is that you are right and I am wrong?

Again, if you look at a group and say they are all alike, you are stereotyping. You are not going to give much in the way of a meaningful opinion.

Trump is a representative of the red world view, or is pretending to be, I'm not really sure how sincere his act really is. An awful lot of his positions flip flopped as he decided to run as a Republican. He is at least as valid a representative of a group as Eric is a representative of boomer spiritualists... which is not very. Trump, at least, has demonstrated he can gather a following who will agree with him, while Eric... isn't doing as well in the polls.
(11-05-2016, 11:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric the Obtuse.  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.

You are having a nice little conversation with Galen, but don't assume he's any more representative of all Americans than Eric.  In my youth I flirted with several variations of New Age and spiritualist practice, from Taoism to Born Again Christian, to Wiccan.  There was a good deal of variety and growth, at least if you accept that the goals of spiritualism can lead to growth.  If your values aren't compatible with spiritualist goals and methods, as Galen's aren't, it is easy to reject spiritualism as 'pretty empty'.  Then again, if one is deeply partisan in any set of values, others pursuing any sort of conflicting values would be perceived of as 'pretty empty' or worse...  Far worse.  Just ask Eric if living one's life without using spiritualist means to seek enlightenment and wisdom would be 'pretty empty'.

Me, I chose science over spiritualism, but I can quite understand others making other choices.

I would note many Red Boomer's pursuit of fundamentalist religion includes using the government to harass and oppress those with conflicting values.  This is in strong conflict much of the Blue Boomer's religious and spiritual diversity.  What you see with Hillary welcoming minorities while Trump flirts with racism is part of the red/blue divide.  It exists in religious perspectives as much as it does in race and gender.  The various flavors of blue tinted spiritualists will be happily doing their own thing, while the red tinted fundamentalists will be trying to use the law to force their religious beliefs on everybody.

And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity.  This is also hardly unique to the Boomers, you can see it in the other generations as well.  One would like to think that the notion that America is a white christian nation is unique to the Ku Klux Klan, but it isn't.  It's a common part of the red perspective.  It's the difference between "If I'm right, and it is beyond question that I'm right, then everyone who disagrees is wrong" and "Let's all do our own thing."  There is a theme, visible in Trump's message, that everyone has their place, and the place of the white christian males is on top.  This is an old element of America, but not part of the values of everyone in America.

Also, stereotyping any group as being just like Eric would stand as example of vile stereotyping.  This isn't to say Eric is necessarily vile, but to say that bunches of people are just like him is vile stereotyping.  Eric is quite unique.  Galen might be deep enough into partisan stereotype thinking that he can't perceive a difference between various flavors of spiritualism and various practitioners of spiritualism.  "They all look alike to me."  No.  Spiritualists are unique and diverse too.  Real people.  They ought to be respected like real people.  (I know.  In Eric's case, this might require more spiritual enlightenment than most people possess...)

And yes, I've got some anger management problems.  Bigots make me angry, whether they are focused on race, gender, religion, culture, or what not.  Well to do people trying to make sure less well off people don't have health care makes me angry.  After Bush 41 and Bush 43 ruined the economy by pushing trickle down economics, those who want to go with trickle down again makes me angry.  Politicians who habitually and casually lie make me angry.

There is much to be angry about.

And that may be one thing that the Boomers did learn in their youth, if a whole bunch of people don't get angry, then nothing will change.
"but don't assume he's any more representative of all Americans than Eric."
I'm not, I am simply politely listening as I do not just take in what is being said but it tells me also something about the person as well as generational observation (which I pick up on when sitting and listening to others). I take in more that the actual conversation. Which is why I said I may learn something. People fascinate me. That is why i am a writer/character designer/budding film director/animator.


" If your values aren't compatible with spiritualist goals and methods, as Galen's aren't, it is easy to reject spiritualism as 'pretty empty'.  Then again, if one is deeply partisan in any set of values, others pursuing any sort of conflicting values would be perceived of as 'pretty empty' or worse...  Far worse.  Just ask Eric if living one's life without using spiritualist means to seek enlightenment and wisdom would be 'pretty empty'.

Me, I chose science over spiritualism, but I can quite understand others making other choices."
So can I even if I think the person's ideas are ridiculous. As long as it does not harm anyone whatever. If it is harmless and makes them feel better about life. I also choose science...mostly. Science first though. I do meditate and do believe in ghosts/energy as well as meditate because it is soothing. I also studied wicca because it is such a beautiful religion. Anything to do with nature and respecting it i am right there.



"I would note many Red Boomer's pursuit of fundamentalist religion includes using the government to harass and oppress those with conflicting values.  This is in strong conflict much of the Blue Boomer's religious and spiritual diversity.  What you see with Hillary welcoming minorities while Trump flirts with racism is part of the red/blue divide.  It exists in religious perspectives as much as it does in race and gender.  The various flavors of blue tinted spiritualists will be happily doing their own thing, while the red tinted fundamentalists will be trying to use the law to force their religious beliefs on everybody."
Yeah that is the side of fundamentalism that I despise is when it is pushed onto others to oppress. I do not take kindly to that. But then they say that it is their right to do that so yeah what do you do when they call you oppressive for taking away their right apparently to oppress? Red boomers say that blue boomers do the same supposedly.



"And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity."
Yes, I know that. I learned that long ago despite being from a different country. Listening does wonders for the brain.


"Also, stereotyping any group as being just like Eric would stand as example of vile stereotyping.  This isn't to say Eric is necessarily vile, but to say that bunches of people are just like him is vile stereotyping.  Eric is quite unique."
Quite unique. You got that right. Never met someone quite like him before. I have been labeled the living stereotype of a very civic millennial and I would say he would be the living embodiment of a stereotypical boomer going by what Strauss and Howe have described them as (generally speaking of course) regarding what they often have in common. The man even calls himself a prophet. It is no wonder we do not really get along haha. But yes of course there are differences. My mother is quite different from Eric. She has more in common I would say with xers. She certainly raised me like she was an xer being ahead of her time with the whole smothering thing.

"a difference between various flavors of spiritualism and various practitioners of spiritualism.  "They all look alike to me."  No.  Spiritualists are unique and diverse too.  Real people.  They ought to be respected like real people.  (I know.  In Eric's case, this might require more spiritual enlightenment than most people possess...)"
When I get upset at what nasty things religious people do this is something I need to remember myself as I believe although religion is somewhat different to spiritualism it also has a lot of differences too. This is a weakness of mine is showing respect to them when I am angry at what I hear some doing and also thinking they are silly for believing in it. Something for me to work on and I am not sure how to fix that weakness of mine.

"And yes, I've got some anger management problems.  Bigots make me angry, whether they are focused on race, gender, religion, culture, or what not.  Well to do people trying to make sure less well off people don't have health care makes me angry."
I hear ya on that.

"And that may be one thing that the Boomers did learn in their youth, if a whole bunch of people don't get angry, then nothing will change."
Hmm good point. Interesting perspective.
The Pope disavows Donald Trump in all but name:

If you’ve ever wondered how terrible a person must be to get the pope to condemn them, look no further than GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump.

At the World Meeting of Popular Movements at the Vatican on Saturday, Pope Francis spoke about the danger of building walls to keep people out and “false prophets that exploit fear and hopelessness to sell magical formulas of hate and cruelty.”

...

rancis never uttered Trump’s name, and, as The Atlantic points out, his comments could generally apply to other leaders. But it’s hard not to think of Trump himself when the pope talks about walls.

“No tyranny can be sustained without exploiting our fears. This is clear,” Francis said at the event, speaking in Spanish. “All tyranny is terrorist. And when that terror, ignited in the peripheries with massacres, looting, oppression and injustice, explodes in the centers in the form of violence, including with hateful and cowardly intent, the citizens who still have some rights are tempted by the false security of walls, physical or social — walls that close some in and banish others.”

In the past, Francis has been a little more blunt with his thoughts:

“A person who only thinks about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,” Francis told reporters in February.

In response to the criticism at the time, Trump called the holy man “disgraceful” and accused Mexico of using him as a pawn.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pope...ce6fbc78a6

My comment:

One need not be a Catholic to recognize that the Pope is far more an expert on Christian values than Donald Trump, whose behavior is a travesty of Christian values.

The only "pussies" that I have ever grabbed said "Meow!" in response.
(11-05-2016, 11:41 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 11:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric the Obtuse.  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.

And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity.  This is also hardly unique to the Boomers, you can see it in the other generations as well.  One would like to think that the notion that America is a white christian nation is unique to the Ku Klux Klan, but it isn't.  It's a common part of the red perspective.  It's the difference between "If I'm right, and it is beyond question that I'm right, then everyone who disagrees is wrong" and "Let's all do our own thing."  There is a theme, visible in Trump's message, that everyone has their place, and the place of the white christian males is on top.  This is an old element of America, but not part of the values of everyone in America.

There is very little difference in Red or Blue Boomers, they only differ in the goals they choose to pursue. With Boomers it is always: I am right and everyone else is wrong.  Don't have much use for either of them.

I was speaking of a very specific form of spiritualism.  The America of the nineteenth and early twentieth century was very much a Christian nation.  As for what Trump is, she can look up his speeches on Youtube and work that out for herself.

That is not a specific to boomers and boomers only. Anyone can have an opinion that is concrete in their head. The difference I have noticed is that (usually more evident in boomers) boomers usually use it in a form of ideology that they want to push onto society. It is not just boomers though. Whatshisface (cannot for the life of me remember his name right now) who bought fox pushed the right wing agenda through fox in the late 80s onward and he was born in 1931. He was the one who started to use younger folk (some boomers) to push ideology and the i am right you are wrong "discussion." That also would be shown on the left side of politics also. I am using that as an example given I watched that docco yesterday thanks to pbrower. Boomers also use their voice for change because as Bob says if they do not who will? If they don't nothing changes and it only stagnates. They filled a void that was needed at the time and well.....as I mentioned above...old habits die hard. So xers and us millies will do something else.
(11-06-2016, 12:00 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 11:41 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]There is very little difference in Red or Blue Boomers, they only differ in the goals they choose to pursue. With Boomers it is always: I am right and everyone else is wrong.  Don't have much use for either of them.

I was speaking of a very specific form of spiritualism.  The America of the nineteenth and early twentieth century was very much a Christian nation.  As for what Trump is, she can look up his speeches on Youtube and work that out for herself.

So, what you are saying is that you are right and I am wrong?

Again, if you look at a group and say they are all alike, you are stereotyping.  You are not going to give much in the way of a meaningful opinion.

Trump is a representative of the red world view,  or is pretending to be, I'm not really sure how sincere his act really is.  An awful lot of his positions flip flopped as he decided to run as a Republican.  He is at least as valid a representative of a group as Eric is a representative of boomer spiritualists...  which is not very.  Trump, at least, has demonstrated he can gather a following who will agree with him, while Eric...  isn't doing as well in the polls.

I am simply pointing out that you missed a very important part of what I wrote.  I was referring to something from a very specific time that has evolved over the years that I don't approve of.  If you took the time to notice you would realize I said nothing about Christianity or Buddhism.  What came of the the sixties and evolved into the New Age movement was very selective about what it took from Eastern mysticism.

Red and Blue Boomers suffer from the same problem.  They believe that they are right and everyone else should bow down before them and are equally clueless.  From my point of view they are the same problem with different goals.

Trump is simply a reaction to the status quo as it has existed for some time.  He is simply a big middle finger to the elites in the US.  Given the fact that we appear to be halfway through the current fourth turning I expected someone who was a departure from politics as usual to show up.  The fact that it was Trump was a bit of a surprise to me.  Truth is, he had a good life and is risking it all on his presidential run.  If he loses, the elites will go after him with a vengeance.  I wouldn't have expected him to take that kind of risk since, contrary to popular belief, he isn't idiot and would have to be aware of such consequences.
(11-05-2016, 11:37 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 11:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric (insult redacted).  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.

You are having a nice little conversation with Galen, but don't assume he's any more representative of all Americans than Eric.  In my youth I flirted with several variations of New Age and spiritualist practice, from Taoism to Born Again Christian, to Wiccan.  There was a good deal of variety and growth, at least if you accept that the goals of spiritualism can lead to growth.  If your values aren't compatible with spiritualist goals and methods, as Galen's aren't, it is easy to reject spiritualism as 'pretty empty'.  Then again, if one is deeply partisan in any set of values, others pursuing any sort of conflicting values would be perceived of as 'pretty empty' or worse...  Far worse.  Just ask Eric if living one's life without using spiritualist means to seek enlightenment and wisdom would be 'pretty empty'.

Me, I chose science over spiritualism, but I can quite understand others making other choices.

I would note many Red Boomer's pursuit of fundamentalist religion includes using the government to harass and oppress those with conflicting values.  This is in strong conflict much of the Blue Boomer's religious and spiritual diversity.  What you see with Hillary welcoming minorities while Trump flirts with racism is part of the red/blue divide.  It exists in religious perspectives as much as it does in race and gender.  The various flavors of blue tinted spiritualists will be happily doing their own thing, while the red tinted fundamentalists will be trying to use the law to force their religious beliefs on everybody.

And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity.  This is also hardly unique to the Boomers, you can see it in the other generations as well.  One would like to think that the notion that America is a white christian nation is unique to the Ku Klux Klan, but it isn't.  It's a common part of the red perspective.  It's the difference between "If I'm right, and it is beyond question that I'm right, then everyone who disagrees is wrong" and "Let's all do our own thing."  There is a theme, visible in Trump's message, that everyone has their place, and the place of the white christian males is on top.  This is an old element of America, but not part of the values of everyone in America.

Also, stereotyping any group as being just like Eric would stand as example of vile stereotyping.  This isn't to say Eric is necessarily vile, but to say that bunches of people are just like him is vile stereotyping.  Eric is quite unique.  Galen might be deep enough into partisan stereotype thinking that he can't perceive a difference between various flavors of spiritualism and various practitioners of spiritualism.  "They all look alike to me."  No.  Spiritualists are unique and diverse too.  Real people.  They ought to be respected like real people.  (I know.  In Eric's case, this might require more spiritual enlightenment than most people possess...)

And yes, I've got some anger management problems.  Bigots make me angry, whether they are focused on race, gender, religion, culture, or what not.  Well to do people trying to make sure less well off people don't have health care makes me angry.  After Bush 41 and Bush 43 ruined the economy by pushing trickle down economics, those who want to go with trickle down again makes me angry.  Politicians who habitually and casually lie make me angry.

There is much to be angry about.

And that may be one thing that the Boomers did learn in their youth, if a whole bunch of people don't get angry, then nothing will change.
Before I read your comment let me remind you I simply listen to everyone. Why? Because I may learn something. I tend to wait a while before I make a judgement unless something is blatantly obvious. Ok now I will read your comment.

I am a Boomer, but I cannot describe myself as typical. I grew up in a low-brow rural area under authoritarian parents, so my only escape was in rational behavior. I came to reject my parents' authoritarianism and sentimentality.

As the mass culture pushed at Boomers became swill I began to find antiquity in artistic and musical styles attractive. I also recognized the drug scene and the sexual revolution too destructive for my taste. Born too late to be drafted to serve in Vietnam, and likely 4-F, I could never participate in anti-war protests.

So I am self-righteous about many things (does that go with Asperger's?)

...I was raised to be a GI, which was a parental mistake. I could have never competed with them as a young whipper-snapper even if I was rational, bland, and conformist. GIs had that social role to themselves, and they were not looking for people to repeat their pattern of success.
"They believe that they are right and everyone else should bow down before them and are equally clueless."
From what I have observed this is true. Both seeking to change the system and ultimately affect the people economically and culturally, but different agenda. Unless someone tells me otherwise that is what it looks like to me from what I have listened to.

As I said same shoe different foot it will not fit every time. So what to do to be inclusive of everyone? Respect the differences perhaps and if that cannot be done segregation may have to become a thing to protect certain beliefs not affected by others that interfere with others in order for some peace of mind. It does bother me though that they will end up in a bubble with no real understanding of others different from them however. That is merely a quick fix but does not address the issue of understanding others but also not infringing on rights and ultimately pissing people off.
(11-06-2016, 12:33 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 11:37 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 11:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 10:19 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2016, 09:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm well I dunno tbh. I hardly know anything of the missionaries except I hear they were far more grounded and stern than boomers which sounds more like kiwi boomers. Ours knew what needed to be patched up and worked with what could be patched up..for example relations with the maori, women's rights and the environment as well as teaching the young that these things are the norm in culture now. I was one of the wee ones experiencing that type of teaching learning European/kiwi culture and Maori too and both languages to build an understanding between the two. Some boomers in America stun me with how strong their unrealistic ideology is and some are so angry about the fact they cannot put that ideology into society. The anger is shocking. I do not know tbh also about how boomers thinks about spiritualism. Personally I would rather hear them out on what it means to them individually. I think they may have just felt stifled in a culture that was not theirs. I am of the opinion as long as it was mutual meh have at it. I do not support non consensual sexual advances.

It takes time and experience to get a feel for an era from the historical record.  It is worth the effort.  What you get in school just isn't going to be enough.

The New Age movement are basically made up of people who are variations of Eric (insult redacted).  That is pretty much what the spiritualism of the sixties evolved into and it is pretty empty.  

That anger is pretty typical but is getting worse.  Probably because they are reaching the end of their lives.

You are having a nice little conversation with Galen, but don't assume he's any more representative of all Americans than Eric.  In my youth I flirted with several variations of New Age and spiritualist practice, from Taoism to Born Again Christian, to Wiccan.  There was a good deal of variety and growth, at least if you accept that the goals of spiritualism can lead to growth.  If your values aren't compatible with spiritualist goals and methods, as Galen's aren't, it is easy to reject spiritualism as 'pretty empty'.  Then again, if one is deeply partisan in any set of values, others pursuing any sort of conflicting values would be perceived of as 'pretty empty' or worse...  Far worse.  Just ask Eric if living one's life without using spiritualist means to seek enlightenment and wisdom would be 'pretty empty'.

Me, I chose science over spiritualism, but I can quite understand others making other choices.

I would note many Red Boomer's pursuit of fundamentalist religion includes using the government to harass and oppress those with conflicting values.  This is in strong conflict much of the Blue Boomer's religious and spiritual diversity.  What you see with Hillary welcoming minorities while Trump flirts with racism is part of the red/blue divide.  It exists in religious perspectives as much as it does in race and gender.  The various flavors of blue tinted spiritualists will be happily doing their own thing, while the red tinted fundamentalists will be trying to use the law to force their religious beliefs on everybody.

And again, anyone who generalizes about all Boomers is going to miss the point.  They don't get it.  The Red Boomers and Blue Boomers are very much different, especially in how they accept diversity.  This is also hardly unique to the Boomers, you can see it in the other generations as well.  One would like to think that the notion that America is a white christian nation is unique to the Ku Klux Klan, but it isn't.  It's a common part of the red perspective.  It's the difference between "If I'm right, and it is beyond question that I'm right, then everyone who disagrees is wrong" and "Let's all do our own thing."  There is a theme, visible in Trump's message, that everyone has their place, and the place of the white christian males is on top.  This is an old element of America, but not part of the values of everyone in America.

Also, stereotyping any group as being just like Eric would stand as example of vile stereotyping.  This isn't to say Eric is necessarily vile, but to say that bunches of people are just like him is vile stereotyping.  Eric is quite unique.  Galen might be deep enough into partisan stereotype thinking that he can't perceive a difference between various flavors of spiritualism and various practitioners of spiritualism.  "They all look alike to me."  No.  Spiritualists are unique and diverse too.  Real people.  They ought to be respected like real people.  (I know.  In Eric's case, this might require more spiritual enlightenment than most people possess...)

And yes, I've got some anger management problems.  Bigots make me angry, whether they are focused on race, gender, religion, culture, or what not.  Well to do people trying to make sure less well off people don't have health care makes me angry.  After Bush 41 and Bush 43 ruined the economy by pushing trickle down economics, those who want to go with trickle down again makes me angry.  Politicians who habitually and casually lie make me angry.

There is much to be angry about.

And that may be one thing that the Boomers did learn in their youth, if a whole bunch of people don't get angry, then nothing will change.
Before I read your comment let me remind you I simply listen to everyone. Why? Because I may learn something. I tend to wait a while before I make a judgement unless something is blatantly obvious. Ok now I will read your comment.

I am a Boomer, but I cannot describe myself as typical. I grew up in a low-brow rural area under authoritarian parents, so my only escape was in rational behavior. I came to reject my parents' authoritarianism and sentimentality.

As the mass culture pushed at Boomers became swill I began to find antiquity in artistic and musical styles attractive. I also recognized the drug scene and the sexual revolution too destructive for my taste. Born too late to be drafted to serve in Vietnam, and likely 4-F, I could never participate in anti-war protests.

So I am self-righteous about many things (does that go with Asperger's?)

...I was raised to be a GI, which was a parental mistake. I could have never competed with them as a young whipper-snapper even if I was rational, bland, and conformist. GIs had that social role to themselves, and they were not looking for people to repeat their pattern of success.
Wow raised to be a GI? That is amazing to me. Thanks for sharing that. That was fascinating. You know we need more life stories like this so that people recognize we all are different in our own way as well as being part of a certain generation. I also was not typical despite many saying I remind them of GI's (perhaps partly because I am an Apollonian civic like your GIs were?) I was smothered compared to how my peers were raised. They were just protected. But not over the top. It made me more rebellious because I wanted the freedom they enjoyed. But that involved a lot of verbal disputes. I mostly kept in line (mostly due to fear of a certain boomer *mother* As I have grown older and relented to my smothered fate it shaped me into more like a civic cusper (civic/artist). She has made me terrified of the world and super sensitive. I also like to hear everyone out for fairness and consensus. But as I was also raised with other millennials away from my mother I had a taste of that too and that is why I was rebellious with my mother as I saw others being raised very differently to me. It was like being in a straight jacket..one I had to get used to. Now that it has shaped me it has made me quite the nervous sort who is unsure about the world.
(11-06-2016, 12:21 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]I am simply pointing out that you missed a very important part of what I wrote.  I was referring to something from a very specific time that has evolved over the years that I don't approve of.  If you took the time to notice you would realize I said nothing about Christianity or Buddhism.  What came of the the sixties and evolved into the New Age movement was very selective about what it took from Eastern mysticism.

We may just have different notions of what the "New Age" movements are.  If I cared to pursue this, I'd strive to establish how I use the phrase, how you use the phrase, but I don't know that it would be worth the effort.  I just figured if you are using Eric as a typical member of the New Age movement, if all New Agers are just like Eric, the New Age movement takes an awful lot from Eastern mysticism.

(11-06-2016, 12:21 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Red and Blue Boomers suffer from the same problem.  They believe that they are right and everyone else should bow down before them and are equally clueless.  From my point of view they are the same problem with different goals.

I see the problem as being red / blue, not generational.  It's not like we have a generation gap similar to what we had in the awakening.  The election is between two old fogies.  It's not old verses new, not age versus youth.  It's about issues, and there are folk in all generations on both sides of the divide.

I do see the generations as having different styles of communication, different ways to make an argument.  Yes, the boomers have a tendency to argue from ideals.  Xers tend to be cynical.  Most Millenials seem earnest, but to this point are focused more on coping with the way things are than changing the ways things are.  These tendencies are real and make working together difficult, but they are not the core of the problems to be solved.  They are distractions.  Too many folks who hate this generation or that are expending lots of energy to no good purpose.  To me, it should be about the issues, not how the issues are communicated.

In Theory, there should be a synergetic alignment of generations.  The idealistic elders set worthy goals and inspire.  The practical hard edged middle management finds a way to make it work.  The energetic team playing youngsters work to create a better tomorrow.  So far, it isn't happening.  So long as the generations distrust, dislike and skirmish with each other, it isn't apt to happen.

(11-06-2016, 12:21 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Trump is simply a reaction to the status quo as it has existed for some time.  He is simply a big middle finger to the elites in the US.  Given the fact that we appear to be halfway through the current fourth turning I expected someone who was a departure from politics as usual to show up.  The fact that it was Trump was a bit of a surprise to me.  Truth is, he had a good life and is risking it all on his presidential run.  If he loses, the elites will go after him with a vengeance.  I wouldn't have expected him to take that kind of risk since, contrary to popular belief, he isn't idiot and would have to be aware of such consequences.

Trump's life has been a series of ego trips.  His presidential run seems to be one last grand finale ego trip.  From that point of view, his risk, if he risked anything, has paid off.  He is on center stage with all eyes on him.  If he loses, if the elites go after him, he gets to play martyr, whine triumphantly on Trump TV, and stay in the public view.  This is still a win for a narcissist.  His post election loss life will still be better than hosting a reality TV show.

Yes, in a 4T there ought to be a transforming set of political ideas pushed by transforming politicians.  I wasn't expecting Trump either.  However, I don't see Trump as truly transforming.  He is going after the most archaic faction of the Republican base, pushing Reagan's trickle down economics and Nixon's southern strategy.  There is little new save trying to persuade Mexico to build a wall.  I personally don't like trickle down as it failed badly for both Bushes, nor the southern strategy as I'm not into racism.

Yes.  We need something new, but as long as the Republicans in congress have a filibuster, we're not going to move past the unravelling stalemate.  A lot of people have been sold on low taxes and small government, have been for years.  Borrow and spend trickle down is not change.  That is the way of continuing the unravelling forever.  Bringing racism and sexism out in the open again is change of sorts, but not the sort of change I favor.  Hatred alone won't make for a successful 4T.

I'd have been happier with Bernie than Hillary, but while the Republicans have a filibuster, it doesn't make much of a difference.