“I believe that in this country, we should not be selling automatic weapons which are designed to kill people,” Sanders said Sunday. “We have got to do everything that we can on top of that to make sure that guns do not fall into the hands of people who should not have them, criminals, people who are mentally ill.”
NBC News PR ✔ @NBCNewsPR
"It's horrific, it's unthinkable," says @BernieSanders on #OrlandoShooting this morning on @MeetThePress. #MTP #Orlando
6:24 AM - 12 Jun 2016
The Democratic presidential candidate called the shooting, which began at the gay nightclub Sunday at around 2:00 a.m., “horrific” and “unthinkable.” Sanders added that he believes exists “a very broad consensus in this country” between most gun owners that the U.S. government has “got to do everything that we can to prevent guns from falling into the hands of people who should not have them. That means expanding the instant background checks, it means doing away with the gun show loophole, it means addressing the straw man provision. I think there is a wide consensus to move forward in that direction.”
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/06/...-shooting/
I created a new thread about gun control; lets keep this thread about shooting.
I don't get the distinction there. There would have been no shooting without the weapons.
So, we can discuss "the shooting" on this thread, but not the cause of the shooting?
On the other hand, no doubt everything's already been said, regardless of which thread it's on.
But, why not a new thread about mental illness, then?
(06-13-2016, 07:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get the distinction there. There would have been no shooting without the weapons.
So, we can discuss "the shooting" on this thread, but not the cause of the shooting?
On the other hand, no doubt everything's already been said, regardless of which thread it's on.
But, why not a new thread about mental illness, then?
Gun Control debates tend to get very heated and I'd like this thread to be for news about the shooting, if arises about other issues I'll start a thread about that.
Eric The Green Wrote:I don't get the distinction there. There would have been no shooting without the weapons.
There'd been no shooting if there was no oxygen either.
Quote:So, we can discuss "the shooting" on this thread, but not the cause of the shooting?
You've already mentioned your opinion. There are other opinions other folks may have.
Quote:On the other hand, no doubt everything's already been said, regardless of which thread it's on.
Maybe Dan is awaiting for a few more replies and after sufficient time, he can lock this one.
Quote:But, why not a new thread about mental illness, then?
Yes, that can be done. It's times like this that I miss Dr. The Rani.
Dan Wrote:Gun Control debates tend to get very heated and I'd like this thread to be for news about the shooting, if arises about other issues I'll start a thread about that.
We already have one for gun control, Dan.
http://generational-theory.com/forum/thread-194.html
Of utmost service,
Rags
Dan Wrote:That's the one I split off from this thread
Excellent moderation there. That's a fine example of everything's in its place and a place for everything!
(06-13-2016, 08:08 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ] (06-13-2016, 07:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get the distinction there. There would have been no shooting without the weapons.
So, we can discuss "the shooting" on this thread, but not the cause of the shooting?
On the other hand, no doubt everything's already been said, regardless of which thread it's on.
But, why not a new thread about mental illness, then?
Gun Control debates tend to get very heated and I'd like this thread to be for news about the shooting, if arises about other issues I'll start a thread about that.
Well let's see; Obama and Hillary both commented on the shooting that there's a great need for gun control and an assault weapons ban. Now, that's "news." It certainly was on the news. Here in CA, our legislature is moving. Now, when will some posters here start to move in response to the reality?
Dan Wrote:Gun Control debates tend to get very heated and I'd like this thread to be for news about the shooting, if arises about other issues I'll start a thread about that.
Obviously.
Quote:Well let's see; Obama and Hillary both commented on the shooting that there's a great need for gun control and an assault weapons ban. Now, that's "news." It certainly was on the news. Here in CA, our legislature is moving. Now, when will some posters here start to move in response to the reality?
1. I beg to differ with both of them and Eric. Banning stuff doesn't work. Look how well the war on drugs is going.
2. It doesn't matter who holds what position wrt gun control, it BELONGS ON THE OTHER THREAD!
As I have pointed out, the "news" of this tragic event, and discussion of the causes for it, can't be separated, and is NOT being separated in the ACTUAL news reports of this event. There is not one single cause of this event, but at least several. The hateful beliefs and ideologies of those who claim to speak for God, as Obama called it, is one; along with the organizations that promote this hatred and advocate murder of those who disagree. This coupled with the easy access which the United States permits to weapons of mass killing, makes these incidents inevitable. Inadequate investigation and restriction of those who are affected by this hatred, or are otherwise unstable, from having security clearances and access to weapons, is a problem, as is permission of such propaganda over the internet.
I am wondering how this will play out with the revelations today that the shooter might have been a self-hating gay man. Makes it harder to peg this event as externally-driven and more like an internal unrest event. That is, this event might have more in common, sociologically, with Dylan Root's shooting of Black Christians than it does with the 911 attack.
This is relevant because Donald Trump is trying to paint this as a terrorist attack like 911. That is, a political statement made by a foreign entity (AQ in the case of 911 and ISIS here) and not a internal instability event like a rampage killing or a riot. (I think we can all agree that the sheer scale of the carnage moves it beyond the category of mass murder--e.g. family annihilators or serial killers).
On the other hand the response of president Obama and Hillary Clinton implies this is a rampage killing in the vein of Virginia Tech in 2007 (33 dead); Sandy Hook in 2012 (28 dead);
Luby's massacre in 1991 (24 dead) and the
San Ysidro McDonald's massacre in 1984 (22 dead).
So how do folks here see this event? Is it a terrorist attack like 911,
Oklahoma city,
Bath or
Wall Street? Is it a rampage (perhaps partially politically motivated like Dylan Root's or Elliot Roger's rampage)?
Terrorist attack like Oklahoma, 9/11
(06-14-2016, 07:08 PM)Mikebert Wrote: [ -> ]I am wondering how this will play out with the revelations today that the shooter might have been a self-hating gay man. Makes it harder to peg this event as externally-driven and more like an internal unrest event. That is, this event might have more in common, sociologically, with Dylan Root's shooting of Black Christians than it does with the 911 attack.
This is relevant because Donald Trump is trying to paint this as a terrorist attack like 911. That is, a political statement made by a foreign entity (AQ in the case of 911 and ISIS here) and not a internal instability event like a rampage killing or a riot. (I think we can all agree that the sheer scale of the carnage moves it beyond the category of mass murder--e.g. family annihilators or serial killers).
On the other hand the response of president Obama and Hillary Clinton implies this is a rampage killing in the vein of Virginia Tech in 2007 (33 dead); Sandy Hook in 2012 (28 dead); Luby's massacre in 1991 (24 dead) and the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre in 1984 (22 dead).
So how do folks here see this event? Is it a terrorist attack like 911, Oklahoma city, Bath or Wall Street? Is it a rampage (perhaps partially politically motivated like Dylan Root's or Elliot Roger's rampage)?
1. Self-hatred often leads to lashing out. I can only wonder how close Dylan Roof was to sorting out that white supremacy was a sham... maybe when he could no longer have anything to believe in, he had to lash out. Maybe we would know nothing of Dylan Roof had he so recognized that African-American Christianity is valid. Maybe if things had really gone right he would have found a new cultural and religious milieu to join, even to the extent of marrying and having children by a black woman. It might be an obscure story in
Essence,
Ebony, or
Jet Magazine... but it would be an unqualified success.
2. Self-hating gay man? I am reminded that some leading Nazis lived in fear that they had some Jewish ancestry. Thus Hitler, Heydrich, and Eichmann. Eichmann often got teased in school as "the little Jew"... and even in Israel he was noticed as looking very ordinary among people who had been victims of or refugees from Nazism.
Killing a bunch of gay men could be to himself what killing Jews was to Nazis -- proving that they were not sullied with some connection to an 'evil' set of humanity.
3. I doubt that we can blame any President for mass killings. There is no political fault except for the availability of firearms to people who can be shown to be the wrong people to have them.
This said... everyone has
some problem. Few of us who have problems do mass murder. Suicide, maybe, but that is the end of the suffering for many. If I found myself with a strong urge to cause mass carnage, then the most ethical thing for me to do would be to remove the menace to Humanity.
(06-14-2016, 07:08 PM)Mikebert Wrote: [ -> ]So how do folks here see this event? Is it a terrorist attack like 911, Oklahoma city, Bath or Wall Street? Is it a rampage (perhaps partially politically motivated like Dylan Root's or Elliot Roger's rampage)?
I read it as a messed up young man. If one is going to commit suicide, might as well make the front pages. In this case the target suggests it was more likely gay than ISIS, but something messed him up and it could very well have been neither.
(06-14-2016, 08:18 PM)Danilynn Wrote: [ -> ]Terrorist attack like Oklahoma, 9/11
This is an interesting response. I gave a list of four examples of terrorism, three of which were perpetrated by Americans: Oklahoma city, bath and Wall St. In contrast, 911 was carried out by a team of operatives (essentially soldiers) of a foreign polity, who was at war with America.
Since the Orlando shooter was an American, that is it was an example of domestic terrorism, one might think this event to be more similar to one of the first three that were also carried out by Americans.
911 and the Wall street bombing were both committed for explicit political purposes, making them examples of classic terrorism, defined as using fear-inducing tactic against civilian populations into order to further specifically political objectives (persuading the US to leave the Middle East in the case of 911 and fomenting a popular revolution in the case of the Wall St bombing).
Since the Orlando shooting seems to have had a more fuzzy motive along the lines of general hatred of gays, the gay lifestyle and gay-friendly America, which would seem to make it more similar to McVeigh's or Dylan Roof's motivations.
And yet the choice made was 911 in a short statement as if this were obvious. I submit that this response is actually a very common one, and it exactly the same reaction Trump is channeling when his response to this event is to call for keeping Islamic people out of the country. Obviously this could have no effect on the Orlando event since the shooter was an American citizen who was born here and already in the country. That is, a very logical response to 911 was offered as a response to this event, event thought the logistics of the two events are completely different.
(06-15-2016, 12:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2016, 07:08 PM)Mikebert Wrote: [ -> ]So how do folks here see this event? Is it a terrorist attack like 911, Oklahoma city, Bath or Wall Street? Is it a rampage (perhaps partially politically motivated like Dylan Root's or Elliot Roger's rampage)?
I read it as a messed up young man. If one is going to commit suicide, might as well make the front pages. In this case the target suggests it was more likely gay than ISIS, but something messed him up and it could very well have been neither.
This too is an interesting response for two reasons. First it is noncommital and does not answer the question. Second it seems to imply that it was
obviously a rampage (that is, a
criminal act rather than an attack by a member of an irregular military unit like 911) and went to the next level of speculating why the shooter decided to commit this criminal act.
My point is that these two views are diametrically opposed to each other. If Orlando is seen as like 911 then it means the shooter may be sane and acted out of ideology, like the 911 hijackers. It falls into a category like
this event, and is most effectively addressed using
foreign policy tools. That is one might try to block entry into the country of potential agents of radical Islam, or respond directly to the state sponsor of this terrorism (ISIS). For example both Ted Cruz and Donald Trump have suggested this as a response to ISIS:
Dresden
Hamburg.
On the other hand, seeing the Orlando event as a rampage means interpreting it as a
criminal act by a psychologically disturbed person which would be addressed with
domestic policy.