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(02-05-2021, 12:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2021, 06:25 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Why is nonviolence to be preferred to violence?

Most people value life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Thus, if you can get these without violence, you do it.  Sometimes violence is necessary,  I have been saying for a while that non violence doesn't work so well in autocratic cultures.  The leaders can just ignore the people.  Sorta.  Looking at Russia, you wonder.  Looking at China, you wonder less.

How do you improve the culture when the leaders and elites do not show conscience?  Violence is sometimes necessary?

But you avoid it if you can.

Agreed. And usually, violence generates more violence. Societies built on violence, typically live by violence. The new boss is pretty much the same as the old boss, in those societies. But it depends on the situation, and a matter of degree, and the principles involved. Violent outlaws and tyrants can't always be talked down.
(02-05-2021, 09:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 12:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2021, 06:25 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Why is nonviolence to be preferred to violence?

Most people value life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Thus, if you can get these without violence, you do it.  Sometimes violence is necessary,  I have been saying for a while that non violence doesn't work so well in autocratic cultures.  The leaders can just ignore the people.  Sorta.  Looking at Russia, you wonder.  Looking at China, you wonder less.

How do you improve the culture when the leaders and elites do not show conscience?  Violence is sometimes necessary?

But you avoid it if you can.

Agreed. And usually, violence generates more violence. Societies built on violence, typically live by violence. The new boss is pretty much the same as the old boss, in those societies. But it depends on the situation, and a matter of degree, and the principles involved. Violent outlaws and tyrants can't always be talked down.

In America?
Some late polls posted on RealClearPolitics on Biden job approval. Rasmussen not included.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...-7320.html

poll................................date..............sample.......approve....disapprove....spread
Reuters/Ipsos.................2/2 - 2/3........1005 A.......57............34...............+23
Economist/YouGov..........1/31 - 2/2......1272 RV.....50............40...............+10
Politico/Morning Consult..1/29 - 2/1......1986 RV.....58............35...............+23
Quinnipiac......................1/28 - 2/1......1075 A.......49............36...............+13
The Hill/HarrisX...............1/28 - 1/29.....945 RV......61...........39................+22
IBD/TIPP........................1/27 - 1/29....1002 RV.....58............29................+29
Marist.............................1/24 - 1/27....1153 RV.....50............36................+14
Gallup.............................1/21 - 2/2........906 A......57............37................+20
Monmouth.......................1/21 - 1/24.....736 RV.....54............31................+23
(02-05-2021, 09:30 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 09:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 12:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2021, 06:25 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Why is nonviolence to be preferred to violence?

Most people value life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Thus, if you can get these without violence, you do it.  Sometimes violence is necessary,  I have been saying for a while that non violence doesn't work so well in autocratic cultures.  The leaders can just ignore the people.  Sorta.  Looking at Russia, you wonder.  Looking at China, you wonder less.

How do you improve the culture when the leaders and elites do not show conscience?  Violence is sometimes necessary?

But you avoid it if you can.

Agreed. And usually, violence generates more violence. Societies built on violence, typically live by violence. The new boss is pretty much the same as the old boss, in those societies. But it depends on the situation, and a matter of degree, and the principles involved. Violent outlaws and tyrants can't always be talked down.

In America?

Some people in America care more about white supremacy than life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Perhaps if they put themselves in the driver’s seat, they can get these things for themselves if not for all.

Trump divided the people between us and them, between red and blue. The case could be made that he would encourage violence on the part of and for the red.

We certainly saw this division of caring about some people more than others in the US Civil War.

Yes, the phrase “All men are created equal” as written by a slaveowner shows the contradiction, about some not caring as much for some people’s life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as others. Yes, even in America.

Some people are into tribal thinking. You divide between us and them, develop xenophobia about them, and do stuff to promote us and degrade them. This mode of thinking does exist even in America. It is unfortunately human. It was cost effective and common for much of history.

The roundhead / urban / blue / WEIRD culture puts its foot down occasionally, blocks an Adolf Hitler, George Wallace or Donald Trump, hopefully without violence and force, but you do what you have to. This is one of those times.
(02-05-2021, 10:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The roundhead / urban / blue / WEIRD culture puts its foot down occasionally, blocks an Adolf Hitler, George Wallace or Donald Trump, hopefully without violence and force, but you do what you have to.  This is one of those times.

It's sad that this has to be said in a 4T forum.  Isn't that very issue that brought us here in the first place?
President Biden Job Approval
Poll.................................Date................Sample........Approve...Disapprove...Spread
RCP Average....................1/21 - 2/11.......--...............54.4.........36.8...........+17.6
Rasmussen Reports..........2/9 - 2/11........1500 LV.......52...........45..............+7
Reuters/Ipsos...................2/9 - 2/10........1001 A........57...........37..............+20
The Hill/HarrisX................2/8 - 2/9............938 RV......60...........40..............+20
Economist/YouGov............2/6 - 2/9..........1306 RV......53...........40..............+13
Politico/Morning Consult....2/5 - 2/7..........1986 RV......59...........35..............+24
Emerson...........................2/2 - 2/3.........1429 A.........49..........39...............+10
Quinnipiac........................1/28 - 2/1........1075 A.........49..........36 ..............+13
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...-7320.html
[img width=400 height=390]https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/s_8ks7bqO_6ybvMSdLdPprqkFpo=/0x0:1250x1318/1520x0/filters:focal(0x0:1250x1318):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22316368/Poll_02_21_21_1.jpg[/img]

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/2/21/2...ling-trump
[/quote]

1. It is Utah, one of the usual strongest states for Republican pols. Trump had some trouble here, but he is off the scene.  This is extremely good performance for a Democrat. Did Obama ever get to this level of support in Utah? OK, Obama is a poor comparison for Utah because he ended up losing 72-24 or Romney in 2012. I'd love to see a preference poll pitting Obama against Trump in Utah.

2. A 6% gap in Utah is far less than one could reasonably expect. If this were where Biden were early in the 2024 electoral season and he had to win Utah, he could have a chance. The line of approval for having a 50% chance of winning re-election for an incumbent in a state-wide race is roughly 43.5% at the start of an electoral season.   

3. This is a Rasmussen poll, and Scott Rasmussen usually polls favorably to Republicans.

4. It is arguable that President Biden is getting credit for

(1) the response to COVID-19, and
(2) showing no mercy to the insurrectionists.

Mormons have no tolerance for political violence or street crime. If you can't behave yourself, then stay out of Utah. 

[quote author=Tender Branson link=topic=411540.msg7966670#msg7966670 date=1614104612 uid=1660]
VA (CNU)

57% approve
36% disapprove

https://cnu.edu/wasoncenter/surveys/arch...02-23.html
[/quote]

Stronger than the electoral result. Twelve states now.
 

[Image: genusmap.php?year=2016&ev_c=1&pv_p=1&ev_...&NE3=0;1;5]

Key:

30% red shade: Biden up 1-5%
40% red shade: Biden up 5-10%
50% red shade: Biden up 10-15%
60% red shade: Biden up 15-20%
70% red shade: Biden up 20-25%
80% red shade: Biden up 25-30%
90% red shade: Biden up 30%+

50% green shade: tie

30% blue shade: Biden down 1-5%
40% blue shade: Biden down 5-10%
50% blue shade: Biden down 10-15%
60% blue shade: Biden down 15-20%
70% blue shade: Biden down 20-25%
80% blue shade: Biden down 25-30%
90% blue shade: Biden down 30%+


It is approval ratings, and not favorability ratings. Favorability ratings are relevant when they are blatant  (as in states that are not close and usually do not get polled, like New York or Oklahoma) because the states rarely decide an election, but they always must defer to approval. Would I use a favorability rating for Illinois? Sure. Wisconsin? Absolutely not.

*an asterisk indicates that I have accepted a favorability rating.  New York State only.
FYI: Deseret is home to one of the two chemical weapons depots still maintained by Uncle Sam.  If Utah is conservative, then Deseret is reactionary.

Update: The Deseret Chemical Depot closed in 2013, transferring remaining materials to nearby Tooele Army Depot.  FWIW, it sat at the bottom of a caldera to prevent the heavier-than-air chemicals from escaping the area in case of a leak. Needless to say, it was not a stellar place to work.  I visited once. Once was enough.
Deseret is Mormon lingo, a word for honeybee in the Book of Mormon.  It was the proposed name for an independent Mormon republic, or, that failing, a State within the Union. It contained the Great Basin, the upper and middle Colorado Basin, and most of southern coastal California (including what are now Los Angeles and San Diego. It obviously never came to pass.  

[Image: 250px-State_of_Deseret%2C_vector_image_c...11.svg.png]

Welcome to Deseret!
Poll..................................Date............Sample........Approve....Disapprove......Spread
RCP Average....................2/3 - 2/22 --..................54.6..........39.4...............+15.2
Rasmussen Reports..........2/18 - 2/22...1500 LV......50.............48..................+2
Reuters/Ipsos..................2/17 - 2/18....1005 A.......56.............36..................+20
Economist/YouGov...........2/13 - 2/16....1259 RV.....55.............40..................+15
Politico/Morning Consult...2/14 - 2/15....1984 RV.....62.............33..................+29
The Hill/HarrisX................2/12 - 2/15....2835 RV....59.............41..................+18
Quinnipiac........................2/11 - 2/14....1056 A......50.............38..................+12
Gallup..............................2/3 - 2/18......1021 A......56.............40..................+16
Emerson...........................2/2 - 2/3.......1429 A......49.............39..................+10
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...-7320.html
Poll................Date..............Sample......Approve....Disapprove.....Spread
RCP Average...2/11 - 2/28....--..............54.4..........38.9..............+15.5
IBD/TIPP........2/24 - 2/27...1058 RV.....57.............32.................+25
Rasmussen.....2/24 - 2/28...1500 LV.....49.............48...................+1
Reuters..........2/24 - 2/25...1004 A.......57.............37.................+20
The Hill..........2/23 - 2/24.....949 RV.....59.............41.................+18
YouGov..........2/19 - 2/22...1201 RV.....51.............40.................+11
Politico...........2/19 - 2/22...2013 RV.....58.............36.................+22
Quinnipiac......2/11 - 2/14...1056 A.......50.............38.................+12
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...-7320.html
Poll.................................Date..................Sample....Approve....Disapprove...Spread
RCP Average...................2/24 - 3/7...........--............54.4.........40.0.............+14.4
Rasmussen Reports.........3/3 - 3/7............1500 LV....49...........49................Tie
Reuters/Ipsos..................3/3 - 3/4............1005 A.....58...........35...............+23
Economist/YouGov...........2/27 - 3/2..........1191 RV...52...........42...............+10
Politico/Morning Consult...2/26 - 3/1..........1992 RV...57...........37...............+20
Monmouth.......................2/25 - 3/1............731 RV...50...........43.................+7
IBD/TIPP.........................2/24 - 2/27........1058 RV...57...........32................+25
The Hill/HarrisX................2/24 - 2/26........1909 RV...58...........42................+16
(02-06-2021, 09:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 10:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The roundhead / urban / blue / WEIRD culture puts its foot down occasionally, blocks an Adolf Hitler, George Wallace or Donald Trump, hopefully without violence and force, but you do what you have to.  This is one of those times.

It's sad that this has to be said in a 4T forum.  Isn't that very issue that brought us here in the first place?

Much more typically this culture supports American military interventionist on a "humanitwrian" basis.
(03-08-2021, 01:50 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-06-2021, 09:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 10:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The roundhead / urban / blue / WEIRD culture puts its foot down occasionally, blocks an Adolf Hitler, George Wallace or Donald Trump, hopefully without violence and force, but you do what you have to.  This is one of those times.

It's sad that this has to be said in a 4T forum.  Isn't that very issue that brought us here in the first place?

Much more typically this culture supports American military (intervention) on a "humanitarian" basis.

I am an old anti-war protester going way back, and the son of a pacifist who co-founded Pacifica Radio, but I am becoming more sympathetic to such involvements, at least without bombing (probably) or troops on the ground by the USA. The great war of our time is not against an alliance of invading fascists or monarchs, but the people rising up for freedom against an alliance of local tyrants all over the world. For example, if the people of Burma ask us for help in overthrowing their Myanmar tyrants, we should answer them and give them what they ask for. I'm afraid local people power alone is usually no match for armies, unless there are strong defections from them to the people. Right now the people everywhere just want to be free, and they aren't getting this.
(03-09-2021, 01:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-08-2021, 01:50 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-06-2021, 09:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 10:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The roundhead / urban / blue / WEIRD culture puts its foot down occasionally, blocks an Adolf Hitler, George Wallace or Donald Trump, hopefully without violence and force, but you do what you have to.  This is one of those times.

It's sad that this has to be said in a 4T forum.  Isn't that very issue that brought us here in the first place?

Much more typically this culture supports American military (intervention) on a "humanitarian" basis.

I am an old anti-war protester going way back, but I am becoming more sympathetic to such involvements, at least without bombing (probably) or troops on the ground by the USA. The great war of our time is not against an alliance of invading fascists or monarchs, but the people rising up for freedom against an alliance of local tyrants all over the world. For example, if the people of Burma ask us for help in overthrowing their Myanmar tyrants, we should answer them and give them what they ask for. I'm afraid local people power alone is usually no match for armies, unless there are strong defections from them to the people. Right now the people everywhere just want to be free, and they aren't getting this.

Yes, of course. You are sympathetic to petit-bourgeois conceptions of freedom.
(03-09-2021, 02:59 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-09-2021, 01:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-08-2021, 01:50 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-06-2021, 09:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 10:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The roundhead / urban / blue / WEIRD culture puts its foot down occasionally, blocks an Adolf Hitler, George Wallace or Donald Trump, hopefully without violence and force, but you do what you have to.  This is one of those times.

It's sad that this has to be said in a 4T forum.  Isn't that very issue that brought us here in the first place?

Much more typically this culture supports American military (intervention) on a "humanitarian" basis.

I am an old anti-war protester going way back, but I am becoming more sympathetic to such involvements, at least without bombing (probably) or troops on the ground by the USA. The great war of our time is not against an alliance of invading fascists or monarchs, but the people rising up for freedom against an alliance of local tyrants all over the world. For example, if the people of Burma ask us for help in overthrowing their Myanmar tyrants, we should answer them and give them what they ask for. I'm afraid local people power alone is usually no match for armies, unless there are strong defections from them to the people. Right now the people everywhere just want to be free, and they aren't getting this.

Yes, of course. You are sympathetic to petit-bourgeois conceptions of freedom.

And social-democratic ones, which you are also not sympathetic to.
(03-09-2021, 09:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-09-2021, 02:59 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-09-2021, 01:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-08-2021, 01:50 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-06-2021, 09:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]It's sad that this has to be said in a 4T forum.  Isn't that very issue that brought us here in the first place?

Much more typically this culture supports American military (intervention) on a "humanitarian" basis.

I am an old anti-war protester going way back, but I am becoming more sympathetic to such involvements, at least without bombing (probably) or troops on the ground by the USA. The great war of our time is not against an alliance of invading fascists or monarchs, but the people rising up for freedom against an alliance of local tyrants all over the world. For example, if the people of Burma ask us for help in overthrowing their Myanmar tyrants, we should answer them and give them what they ask for. I'm afraid local people power alone is usually no match for armies, unless there are strong defections from them to the people. Right now the people everywhere just want to be free, and they aren't getting this.

Yes, of course. You are sympathetic to petit-bourgeois conceptions of freedom.

And social-democratic ones, which you are also not sympathetic to.

Because social democracy is absolutely invariably a backdoor to rhe most rapacious forms of Capital (Scandinavian social democracy for example, which  is funded by extremely high regressive taxes s well as domestic businesses that operate in Africa etc.). Social democracy is one of the worst variants of capitalism.
Twenty states. Pennsylvania is favorability, but that is significantly higher than the razor-thin margin of victory for him in November.

 [Image: genusmap.php?year=2016&ev_c=1&pv_p=1&ev_...&NE3=0;1;5]

Key:

30% red shade: Biden up 1-5%
40% red shade: Biden up 5-10%
50% red shade: Biden up 10-15%
60% red shade: Biden up 15-20%
70% red shade: Biden up 20-25%
80% red shade: Biden up 25-30%
90% red shade: Biden up 30%+

50% green shade: tie

30% blue shade: Biden down 1-5%
40% blue shade: Biden down 5-10%
50% blue shade: Biden down 10-15%
60% blue shade: Biden down 15-20%
70% blue shade: Biden down 20-25%
80% blue shade: Biden down 25-30%
90% blue shade: Biden down 30%+


Even the 40% shade is good for the President is in a state that he barely won. Obviously there is much time for things to go wrong for President Biden between now and November 2024.. but so far he has made few mistakes. Barely two months after the inauguration we have a solid idea of how he is doing in enough states to give a characterization that if this were the way things look in September 2024, then one could give the President's opponent little chance of winning.
(03-09-2021, 10:02 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-09-2021, 09:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-09-2021, 02:59 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-09-2021, 01:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-08-2021, 01:50 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Much more typically this culture supports American military (intervention) on a "humanitarian" basis.

I am an old anti-war protester going way back, but I am becoming more sympathetic to such involvements, at least without bombing (probably) or troops on the ground by the USA. The great war of our time is not against an alliance of invading fascists or monarchs, but the people rising up for freedom against an alliance of local tyrants all over the world. For example, if the people of Burma ask us for help in overthrowing their Myanmar tyrants, we should answer them and give them what they ask for. I'm afraid local people power alone is usually no match for armies, unless there are strong defections from them to the people. Right now the people everywhere just want to be free, and they aren't getting this.

Yes, of course. You are sympathetic to petit-bourgeois conceptions of freedom.

And social-democratic ones, which you are also not sympathetic to.

Because social democracy is absolutely invariably a backdoor to rhe most rapacious forms of Capital (Scandinavian social democracy for example, which  is funded by extremely high regressive taxes s well as domestic businesses that operate in Africa etc.). Social democracy is one of the worst variants of capitalism.

It has been 173 years since Marx and Engels published The Communist Manifesto. Name one nation where capital has been abolished and your version of Marxism has been implemented and established.
Einzige --

The only way in which capital can ever be abolished is for the reversion of Humanity to the hunter-gatherer (I almost posted "hunger-gatherer") level of development. The question of capital is who owns it, how people use it, and how people derive benefits from it. Most of those are questions of morality, and Karl Marx was as much a moralizer as anyone on economic matters.

I have no idea of where you live, but unless you live in a place without a real winter (like Hawaii or coastal California, maybe Puerto Rico or some parts of Florida) you require capital for establishing the energy system that keeps you from freezing. Surely you get your food mostly from a grocery store unless you are a subsistence farmer... and that requires capital. You manifestly use the Internet, and establishing and maintaining that requires capital.

This is not to say that American capitalism cannot create a nightmare. The neoliberal era is arguably the worst perversion of capitalism since the near-reversion to serfdom that was the Third Reich. The idea that those who lack the capital must suffer for those who have it, who owe everything to a small cadre of plutocrats and corporate bureaucrats who control not only access to employment but (if they could get away with it) would dictate how we spend our wages -- it would be vice -- is capitalism at its worst. The idea that the poor are to be worked as hard for as little as possible is the veritable definition of exploitation.

Whatever achievements that "Socialist" states did in hastening the development of industry and technology (and that is often suspect) and in promoting social equity have come at the expense of liberty and human dignity that such bourgeois achievements as human rights and free elections that keep societies from spiraling into tyranny in many forms. In theory it is possible for the government to own the productive resources over which an elected body is ultimately responsible. What one gets instead is central planning by a bureaucracy responsible only to a monopoly Party. Central planning does not work.

I have no illusion about any magnanimity of economic elites. They are just as swinish as anyone, and may get away with more personal arrogance than the most debased mobster could get away with. The worst exploiters insist upon seeing themselves -- and others seeing them that way! -- as benefactors to those that they exploit, as I once gleaned from an article on slave-owning planters of the pre-Civil War South.

Capital is not the problem. Capital is mostly inanimate assets (unless you refer to livestock, race horses, of capitalized contracts for such employees as film stars and pro athletes, and personal investment in skills that evaporate when the person holding those skills dies or becomes unable to work) devoid of any feeling or political power. The power plant of an electric utility is capital. That power plant can demand nothing. Owners of the power plant can demand that you pay the electric bill. The owners are not capital; they simply own it. The plant and machinery of a box store is capital, but it cannot even dictate what a customer purchases while there.
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