Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

Millennials are simultaneously a generation of Civic duty (I do think this has proved true as predicted) and a generation of anti-nationalists. They occupy a generational archetype which is supposed to pull people together, but while they are a generation of conventionalism and conformity, they do so with a fixation on what makes us different rather than what makes us the same. I get that there is a time and place to pull in the struggling stragglers and helping them bandage their wounds, but millennials are doing so at the expense of forming any kind of cohesive whole which makes us stronger. 

Many individual millennials are quite strong and competent. I'd even argue we're a fairly industrious and conscientious generation overall, and these are all good things, but what's strange to me is....they don't seem to actually be proud of any of this, viewing it instead as some necessary evil from which they can afford to abstain once times get better, not realizing it was the lack thereof which tends to lead to periods of crisis to begin with. imo, they've internalized too much of the internal, spiritual and "awareness" elements celebrated from the 2T (a time in which they were much more necessary). At present, it's turned into a kind of insular delusion where people are in poverty, living in terrible health, have few friends, experience a low collective self-image and are further socially isolated by oppressive lockdowns, and then turn around like "why is my mental health so bad?", as if they are going to find the answer by meditating, reading moral/spiritual texts or exploring their emotions. There are times where everyone needs to do this at least a little bit, and being a trained classical singer, personality theory enthusiast and amateur historian, I have done and enjoyed plenty. At the moment though? Seeking out more of this is simply out of balance, more of the same. As Einstein put it: "Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result". If you can't find the answer looking to the internal world, look to the outer world.

To get out of this, we need to start taking pride in these reluctant virtues we've developed, push them forward to build great works which we and others can admire, restore some sense of "we're doing something right! let's keep going!". No one is asking to return to the days where people simply casually ignored the vices of our history and present circumstances, least of all my cynical ass, but...are we seriously content with this flaccid self-image we've developed? Are we content to simply lay down and curl up in a corner like an elderly lion past his prime? 

I'm not asking for cheap, chauvinistic boasting, racial superiority theories, fascistic top-down control or emotional repression (I'm actually asking for more of certain types of emotions). I'm stating the common sense truth that we can't make things better for our country if we don't give a shit about the concept of our country or the people in it in the first place.

Maybe it's time for a civic generation that is cosmopolitan. Many of the problems the USA faces are also faced elsewhere in the world. Climate change, vast income inequality, fascism/populism, and COVID-19 aren't restricted to just the US - they're found the world over. We can't expect to fix these in only one country and be fine.

(07-08-2022, 05:54 PM)nguyenivy Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe it's time for a civic generation that is cosmopolitan.

I can see why you would say this, but imo, it is unlikely for reasons listed below. With that said, I'm not against being cosmopolitan (quite the opposite. I have great respect for men of culture). I also don't think these things have to be mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "libertarian nationalist". Part of the reason I am a nationalist is precisely because I love traveling to other countries and experiencing their culture. I want all kinds of countries to be proud of their culture, because I want people in those countries to be inspired to keep doing what their country does best. I want 
- Japan to keep producing the best anime and sushi
- Italy to keep producing the best opera 
- Taiwan to keep producing the best tea
- France to keep producing the best cheese
- Ukraine to keep producing the best music 
and, in our case
- the US to keep producing the best entrepreneurs.

Quote:Many of the problems the USA faces are also faced elsewhere in the world. Climate change, vast income inequality, fascism/populism, and COVID-19 aren't restricted to just the US - they're found the world over. We can't expect to fix these in only one country and be fine.

Covid isn't a primary cause of the 4th turning to begin with. Imo, the causality here is backwards. For example, the Spanish Flu was a 3rd turning phenomenon (1918 to 1920), also affected the entire world and killed about 10 times as many people. Covid isn't causing a 4th turning, a 4th turning is causing our response to Covid.

Similarly, neither is climate change. I'm not saying it isn't real, only that Americans and Europeans haven't really been the ones feelings its negative effects. Climate change is more likely to be a 4th-turning-esque event in, say, the Philippines or Okinawa. The threat represented by global warming is a future threat. That doesn't make it unimportant, but it is not a primary contributor to higher, current levels of wealth inequality, dilapidated infrastructure, decreasing purchasing power and other issues that represent tangible poverty and physical danger.

That leaves the points I agree with you on: income inequality, fascism and populism (to which I've added a few above), and, just like individual countries had to defend their own territory during WWII, so must individual countries address the following issues in their own way (ie, Canada has little influence on corrupt fiscal policies in the US, India has little influence on crony lobbyists in Australia, Germany can't do much about Greece's terrible infrastructure, etc).

Interestingly, my previous post in another thread hit on this topic a bit. Movements of "universal brotherhood" are more common among idealists generations.
- zealous Puritans spreading God's word
- philosophic Awakening generation championing universal, inalienable rights
- Transcendentalist fighting wars to end slavery all around the world (England and France took this trend to a whole new level)
- Missionary-ing Missionaries
- both the hippie wing and the neocon wings of the Boomers

Quote:"the concept of our country"

I consider this to be about the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the reform movements that have expanded their meaning. Not entrepreneurs or individualism.

(07-08-2022, 10:32 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 05:54 PM)nguyenivy Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe it's time for a civic generation that is cosmopolitan.

I can see why you would say this, but imo, it is unlikely for reasons listed below. With that said, I'm not against being cosmopolitan (quite the opposite. I have great respect for men of culture). I also don't think these things have to be mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "libertarian nationalist". Part of the reason I am a nationalist is precisely because I love traveling to other countries and experiencing their culture. I want all kinds of countries to be proud of their culture, because I want people in those countries to be inspired to keep doing what their country does best. I want 
- Japan to keep producing the best anime and sushi
- Italy to keep producing the best opera 
- Taiwan to keep producing the best tea
- France to keep producing the best cheese
- Ukraine to keep producing the best music 
and, in our case
- the US to keep producing the best entrepreneurs.

Among the arts, the USA has done the best in literature. It is, I would hold, the arts which represent and create what is the most enduring legacy of any culture. Also notable is the quality of our universities. We have lots of good entreprenuers, and I'm not against them, but most US business has produced just a bunch of physical tools of greater convenience; not especially that much to be proud of. And lately we don't have as many businesses, but corporate behemoths that are mostly engines to produce money for stockholders, owners and CEOs.

Quote:

Quote:Many of the problems the USA faces are also faced elsewhere in the world. Climate change, vast income inequality, fascism/populism, and COVID-19 aren't restricted to just the US - they're found the world over. We can't expect to fix these in only one country and be fine.

Covid isn't a primary cause of the 4th turning to begin with. Imo, the causality here is backwards. For example, the Spanish Flu was a 3rd turning phenomenon (1918 to 1920), also affected the entire world and killed about 10 times as many people. Covid isn't causing a 4th turning, a 4th turning is causing our response to Covid.

Similarly, neither is climate change. I'm not saying it isn't real, only that Americans and Europeans haven't really been the ones feelings its negative effects. Climate change is more likely to be a 4th-turning-esque event in, say, the Philippines or Okinawa. The threat represented by global warming is a future threat. That doesn't make it unimportant, but it is not a primary contributor to higher, current levels of wealth inequality, dilapidated infrastructure, decreasing purchasing power and other issues that represent tangible poverty and physical danger.

Climate change is a problem largely created by the United States, and others have copied us. For that reason, we need to set the example first of all, and help others in the energy transition. We are not doing this, thanks to the power of the Republican Party, and its power to co-opt one or two senate Democrats and take over the Supreme Court.

What is the "cause" of the 4th Turning? According to the authors, none of the events during the 4T are its cause; rather the generational constellation is the primary cause, and then how they respond to various catalysts. And how the cycle has unfolded and what issues it has dealt with.

I assert that, if there is a cause, it is principally the ideology of neoliberalism. But various awakening trends, and reactions to them, are being played out.

In our 4T, it is best to describe the various crises as features of the 4T, more than causes of it per se.

Climate change is top of the list, as I predicted it would be. We can't go through a year anymore without its results, which get worse every year: droughts, floods, storms, fires, breakdowns in other countries that cause migrations to the USA and Europe, instability everywhere, revolutions, repressions, threats to national security....

The cause: our attachment to old industrial models, especially use of fossil fuels, commercialism/consumerism, and also factory farming and deforestation. This has been greatly accelerated by neoliberalism (libertarian economics, Reaganomics, trickle-down economics, free-market ideology; this has many names), because its chief aim is to get government regulation off the backs of companies who want to extract, pollute, destroy, emit, etc.; all without restraint, and with a sole eye to profits and stock prices.

Far from being a crisis for the future, it is an immediate problem today, and because of feedback loops and tipping points, in the near future within 10 years or so it will become a crisis that will not be reversible until long after our civilization is gone-- and lost for thousands of years. We take action in this 4T, or we die. And so far, action looks difficult. Only if the midterms work out for Democrats in 2022 will this action have any chance to occur. Maybe the reaction to Roe v Wade being terminated will be the catalyst for a turnaround in the polls now and on election day. We can hope.

Covid has certainly become a feature of our 4T, and other pandemics before it in recent years have been a warm up to it. It also is largely caused environmentally (like climate change) by our encroachment on Nature and animal habitat. Covid has been devastating, and it has not been the government coercion to deal with it that is the problem, but precisely the opposite: lack of government coercion-- with the excuse as stated by President Trump that he didn't want to cause a panic, so he just denied the problem and then lifted lockdowns too soon because he wanted to avoid the recession that would hurt his re-election chances. Instead, his denials and lack of action extended the 2020 recession and hurt his chances.

The original catalyst of our 4T remains the crash and great recession of 2008. Obama did a good job of containing this with his stimulus program, but neoliberal propaganda in the form of the Tea Party movement supported by the Koch Brothers ended this stimulus prematurely and caused extensive state cutbacks, so the recession lingered and never really ended. All this only made the rising inequality of our society greater, and it is this inequality, the product of neoliberal policies since Reagan, that is the principle cause of poverty, distrust, resentment and alienation that people still feel, especially younger people who do not have the community or the opportunity that previous generations have. They do have some sense of solidarity in recognizing their plight, and the causes of it, while older generations remain largely duped by neoliberalism.

Now we have a war by a tyrant invading eastern Europe, and the need to support a nation seeking its freedom and regaining the independence it gained in 1991 and in its 2014 revolution. This war, the needed sanctions on the tyrant, and economic recovery from covid, have together sparked inflation.

Gun violence and massacres is another pandemic, making everywhere in our country unsafe and all the people afraid. Guns are more and more allowed to be carried everywhere, so intimidation and threat has replaced the love-in friendliness and open trust gained from the 2T. Republicans block all action on this issue, so it just gets worse. The alienation and lonely atomization among youth today, another product of neoliberalism, seems to drive some of them to violence.

Then there is conspiracy theory culture, originally stemming from the propagation of JFK conspiracy theories starting in 1966, and mushrooming in the late 1990s and since 9-11-2001. This has extended the covid pandemic, because of anti-vax propaganda dissuading people from getting vaccinated, and the vaccine companies themselves are not sharing their patents, thus helping to cause more variants in the covid virus. Biden's failure to act sufficiently on this and on other matters is hurting his popularity. This conspiracy culture has also created the willingness of 30-40% of Americans to believe Trump's big lie that the 2020 election was stolen from him.

This in turn helps to propel the ongoing attacks on our democracy by the Republican Party, which may be the biggest and most-damaging aspect of our 4T. This 4T is far from over, and the threat of more civil violence and rebellion hangs over the country as it struggles against this Republican threat. States passing laws or Courts deciding that state legislatures can change election results to favor Trump and Republicans is the biggest threat, as well as greater restrictions on voting. Failure to control guns is allowing militias to stockpile weapons for the looming fight, and to intimidate voters and election workers. The split in our Senate makes action on this and on all our problems virtually impossible.

And then there's the increasing Christianization of the country at the hands of our Republican Supreme Court, and its determination to make neoliberalism permanent in spite of its being voted out of office first in 2008 and then in 2020. The Court is determined to take our country back before the recent times of toleration/more support for immigrant, non-white, non-christian non-males, and to take us back to the uniformity and patriarchy that the MAGA crowd seeks; or even further back into fascism and the dark ages. This is further increasing the country's division, especially since laws in red states (like abortion laws, anti LGBTQ laws, enabling of police violence) are becoming so oppressive that more young people will be moving from red to blue states, and resistance to our fascist Court and Republican Party will continue to grow too.

(07-08-2022, 10:32 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 05:54 PM)nguyenivy Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe it's time for a civic generation that is cosmopolitan.

I can see why you would say this, but imo, it is unlikely for reasons listed below. With that said, I'm not against being cosmopolitan (quite the opposite. I have great respect for men of culture). I also don't think these things have to be mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "libertarian nationalist". Part of the reason I am a nationalist is precisely because I love traveling to other countries and experiencing their culture. I want all kinds of countries to be proud of their culture, because I want people in those countries to be inspired to keep doing what their country does best. I want 
- Japan to keep producing the best anime and sushi
- Italy to keep producing the best opera 
- Taiwan to keep producing the best tea
- France to keep producing the best cheese
- Ukraine to keep producing the best music 
and, in our case
- the US to keep producing the best entrepreneurs.

I can't speak very highly of your examples.  I would ceratinly have chosen others.  One stands out as demonstably false: Americ'a dominance in entrepeneurs.  If I asked: which countries produce the most business startups per capita?, tha answer would be Sweden and Finland.  Why?  Because the cost of failure is low.  Having a failed business will not deatroy a person or, worse, a family financially.  Given that, it's worth taking the shot -- moreso than here.

(07-10-2022, 07:51 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 10:32 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 05:54 PM)nguyenivy Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe it's time for a civic generation that is cosmopolitan.

I can see why you would say this, but imo, it is unlikely for reasons listed below. With that said, I'm not against being cosmopolitan (quite the opposite. I have great respect for men of culture). I also don't think these things have to be mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "libertarian nationalist". Part of the reason I am a nationalist is precisely because I love traveling to other countries and experiencing their culture. I want all kinds of countries to be proud of their culture, because I want people in those countries to be inspired to keep doing what their country does best. I want 
- Japan to keep producing the best anime and sushi
- Italy to keep producing the best opera 
- Taiwan to keep producing the best tea
- France to keep producing the best cheese
- Ukraine to keep producing the best music 
and, in our case
- the US to keep producing the best entrepreneurs.

I can't speak very highly of your examples.  I would ceratinly have chosen others.  One stands out as demonstably false: Americ'a dominance in entrepeneurs.  If I asked: which countries produce the most business startups per capita?, tha answer would be Sweden and Finland.  Why?  Because the cost of failure is low.  Having a failed business will not deatroy a person or, worse, a family financially.  Given that, it's worth taking the shot -- moreso than here.

Tell me more about all those world famous Swedish and Finnish companies....
Even with policies more favorable in some respects (which is debatable), Scandanavia just...doesn't have the culture of entrepreneurship. The ambition, the apatite for risk, the individualism. Between the two of them, I would probably give the edge to Finland though. The Finns are a proud, hearty race with more of a spine for conflict. Swedes are notoriously passive. Far too much so to be a culture that produces good entrepreneurs in any meaningful quantity.

(07-10-2022, 03:41 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Gun violence and massacres is another pandemic, making everywhere in our country unsafe and all the people afraid. Guns are more and more allowed to be carried everywhere, so intimidation and threat has replaced the love-in friendliness and open trust gained from the 2T. Republicans block all action on this issue, so it just gets worse. The alienation and lonely atomization among youth today, another product of neoliberalism, seems to drive some of them to violence.

We're unlikely to see eye to eye all that much on the ideological stuff, but...what "open trust gained from the 2T?". That was precisely the time America started becoming less trusting and crime and political assassinations increased. It's only in the last few years that crime has gone up a bit because of the craziness, but the murder rate started going up rapidly in the mid 60s, fluctuated in the 80s and didn't start going back down until the 90s. In other words, the 2T and early 3T were the worst of it. Not an environment fostering "openness and trust". Just look at Gen X (or for that matter, any other Nomad generation). Cynicism and mistrust are what they're known for, precisely because a spirit of trust was exactly what their childhoods would not afford them. Trust tends to be reestablished mid-4th turning by the Nomad and Civic generations, not during the 2T. 

I don't want to say the previous 2T didn't have some tremendous benefits, but increasing public trust and togetherness was...not something it deserves credit for. Quite the opposite in fact.

(07-10-2022, 03:40 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2022, 07:51 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 10:32 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 05:54 PM)nguyenivy Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe it's time for a civic generation that is cosmopolitan.

I can see why you would say this, but imo, it is unlikely for reasons listed below. With that said, I'm not against being cosmopolitan (quite the opposite. I have great respect for men of culture). I also don't think these things have to be mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "libertarian nationalist". Part of the reason I am a nationalist is precisely because I love traveling to other countries and experiencing their culture. I want all kinds of countries to be proud of their culture, because I want people in those countries to be inspired to keep doing what their country does best. I want 
- Japan to keep producing the best anime and sushi
- Italy to keep producing the best opera 
- Taiwan to keep producing the best tea
- France to keep producing the best cheese
- Ukraine to keep producing the best music 
and, in our case
- the US to keep producing the best entrepreneurs.

I can't speak very highly of your examples.  I would ceratinly have chosen others.  One stands out as demonstably false: Americ'a dominance in entrepeneurs.  If I asked: which countries produce the most business startups per capita?, tha answer would be Sweden and Finland.  Why?  Because the cost of failure is low.  Having a failed business will not deatroy a person or, worse, a family financially.  Given that, it's worth taking the shot -- moreso than here.

Tell me more about all those world famous Swedish and Finnish companies....
Even with policies more favorable in some respects (which is debatable), Scandanavia just...doesn't have the culture of entrepreneurship. The ambition, the apatite for risk, the individualism. Between the two of them, I would probably give the edge to Finland though. The Finns are a proud, hearty race with more of a spine for conflict. Swedes are notoriously passive. Far too much so to be a culture that produces good entrepreneurs in any meaningful quantity.

Not that long ago the Swedes were a major military power, and they ruled over Norway too. And their cars are pretty good. The Nordic nations are the most-equal and best of the developed world on any health and social scale you can name.

(07-10-2022, 04:09 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2022, 03:41 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Gun violence and massacres is another pandemic, making everywhere in our country unsafe and all the people afraid. Guns are more and more allowed to be carried everywhere, so intimidation and threat has replaced the love-in friendliness and open trust gained from the 2T. Republicans block all action on this issue, so it just gets worse. The alienation and lonely atomization among youth today, another product of neoliberalism, seems to drive some of them to violence.

We're unlikely to see eye to eye all that much on the ideological stuff, but...what "open trust gained from the 2T?". That was precisely the time America started becoming less trusting and crime and political assassinations increased. It's only in the last few years that crime has gone up a bit because of the craziness, but the murder rate started going up rapidly in the mid 60s, fluctuated in the 80s and didn't start going back down until the 90s. In other words, the 2T and early 3T were the worst of it. Not an environment fostering "openness and trust". Just look at Gen X (or for that matter, any other Nomad generation). Cynicism and mistrust are what they're known for, precisely because a spirit of trust was exactly what their childhoods would not afford them. Trust tends to be reestablished mid-4th turning by the Nomad and Civic generations, not during the 2T. 

I don't want to say the previous 2T didn't have some tremendous benefits, but increasing public trust and togetherness was...not something it deserves credit for. Quite the opposite in fact.

I experienced it; you did not. So quoting some stats does not erase the real friendliness and open trust that was created in all the love-ins and get togethers in the psychedelic sixties. The clicks and ranks of our 50s youth disappeared, and we were all one. The love shared among us could not be greater. Commentators described the Bay Area as an intimate community. I could stick out my thumb and go anywhere. The luminous feelings of the time lived on, as many testified. Inhibitions disappeared and people everywhere became much more authentic and open. Tolerance and respect for differences increased, and this continued to grow. The year 1966 was the great psychedelic awakening year; psychedelic art of many kinds and an amazing explosion of music and garage bands proliferated. Yes, it deserves great credit. Knocking this era impoverishes us greatly. It was a new native and contemporary culture that I treasure, and it should be treasured. It was vast and infinitely rich and manifold.

But, Generation X was cynical. They blamed their cynicism on neglect in childhood, and they complained on this forum about it a lot (the original version). So of course we know all about that. There was neglect. And in some ways trust declined. This does not cancel what was created-- and is now lost. Trust in government and institutions did decline in the 2T, as is typical of 2Ts. But 2Ts also typically have romantic and bohemian movements; previous 2Ts were similar. It's a combination of cultural awakening, social movements, romantic feeling, breaking down social barriers, and questioning of authority. It is natural for a nomad generation to follow up after prophets with some practical abilities to make ideals work better and to restore awareness of efficient attention to basic needs and self-reliance that tend to be neglected by idealists. But their resentment against Boomers destroyed some of the potential to apply, make workable and develop what their older siblings started.

The Consciousness Revolution was quite typical, and more intense in the consciousness-awakening field than ever before; but also too disorganized, and the culture created in circa 1966 was not further developed very well, since it seems to have receded; but it did re-appear in the circa 1989-1993 era in what was called the rave or cyber-punk era, a fine Generation X echo of the psychedelic culture that had been created in the sixties by the Silents and the early-mid Boomers, and the multi-media art and techno-ambient music created then was as fine as the poster and pastel psychedelic art and music of the 1966-1970 era. And in the visionary art, new age and human potential movements that began in the sixties and became popularized in the years ever since, the new culture also had some fine results in helping people discover themselves and their potential to overcome repressive programming and improve relationships, compassion and trust, and discover what lies beyond materialism. Most young people today probably have no inkling that these cultural gems ever even existed.

But no doubt, questioning authority and drug use had some bad echoes in poor communities, where drugs became a basis for crime and gangs; thus the rising crime rate. And the experimentation in relationships in the sixties and the liberation movements also had an impact on family breakdowns. But no doubt also, the questioning of authority over the great mistake in Vietnam, a magnificent movement for peace that became the first ever peoples' movement to stop a war, left its mark in rising mistrust of institutions. Watergate didn't help either in 1973, nor did revelations of CIA misconduct in 1975. Breakdown in respect for authority and the ghetto riots in the cities set the stage for the rising crime rate, which at the time I saw as an extension of the riots, and it peaked in about 1990. 1966 was the year of the first of the modern mass shootings too. The assassinations in 1968 ignited the gun control movement, and also immediately the reaction against it. And 1966 was also the year that our conspiracy theory culture was born in the questions about the JFK assassination and the Warren Commission, and this was magnified by other theories such as chemtrails in the late 1990s and the 9-11 "inside job" theory in 2001. This too is all based on distrust in authority.

Our society has been increasingly polarized since the mid-sixties between those dedicated to the ideals of awareness, liberation, social and economic equity and ecology/consumer rights that blossomed in the sixties, and those dedicated to the reaction by authoritarian religion and the business-culture against these movements. In many ways this "psychedelic" liberation unleashed idealism and creativity and mutual friendliness, and also unleashed the dark sides and repressed and tormented impulses that had been locked inside us too.

So it is best to see the 2T as a mixed bag. You sure do seem to elicit some long essays from me, Mr. Black   I don't know if they make any impression on you though.

(07-11-2022, 01:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I experienced it; you did not. So quoting some stats does not erase the real friendliness and open trust that was created in all the love-ins and get togethers in the psychedelic sixties. The clicks and ranks of our 50s youth disappeared, and we were all one. The love shared among us could not be greater. Commentators described the Bay Area as an intimate community. I could stick out my thumb and go anywhere. The luminous feelings of the time lived on, as many testified. Inhibitions disappeared and people everywhere became much more authentic and open. Tolerance and respect for differences increased, and this continued to grow. The year 1966 was the great psychedelic awakening year; psychedelic art of many kinds and an amazing explosion of music and garage bands proliferated. Yes, it deserves great credit. Knocking this era impoverishes us greatly. It was a new native and contemporary culture that I treasure, and it should be treasured. It was vast and infinitely rich and manifold.

I have no doubt that was your experience. My point is that that was the experience specifically of left wing boomers (and, to a lesser extent, left wing Silent Gen and more centrist boomers), while Gen X was over here like "where are all the adults?", the Silent played peacekeeping middle child and the GI and remaining Lost just looked at each other like "....huh?" .

In fairness to you, you did answer my question. You just did so with a more specific, niche answer to a broader question.

Quote:But, Generation X was cynical. They blamed their cynicism on neglect in childhood, and they complained on this forum about it a lot (the original version). So of course we know all about that. There was neglect. And in some ways trust declined. This does not cancel what was created-- and is now lost. Trust in government and institutions did decline in the 2T, as is typical of 2Ts. But 2Ts also typically have romantic and bohemian movements; previous 2Ts were similar. It's a combination of cultural awakening, social movements, romantic feeling, breaking down social barriers, and questioning of authority. It is natural for a nomad generation to follow up after prophets with some practical abilities to make ideals work better and to restore awareness of efficient attention to basic needs and self-reliance that tend to be neglected by idealists. But their resentment against Boomers destroyed some of the potential to apply, make workable and develop what their older siblings started.

There was a lot created during the 2T. My only point with this is that broader collective trust was not one of them.

Quote:The Consciousness Revolution was quite typical, and more intense in the consciousness-awakening field than ever before; but also too disorganized, and the culture created in circa 1966 was not further developed very well, since it seems to have receded; but it did re-appear in the circa 1989-1993 era in what was called the rave or cyber-punk era, a fine Generation X echo of the psychedelic culture that had been created in the sixties by the Silents and the early-mid Boomers, and the multi-media art and techno-ambient music created then was as fine as the poster and pastel psychedelic art and music of the 1966-1970 era. And in the visionary art, new age and human potential movements that began in the sixties and became popularized in the years ever since, the new culture also had some fine results in helping people discover themselves and their potential to overcome repressive programming and improve relationships, compassion and trust, and discover what lies beyond materialism. Most young people today probably have no inkling that these cultural gems ever even existed.

no argument there

Quote:But no doubt, questioning authority and drug use had some bad echoes in poor communities, where drugs became a basis for crime and gangs; thus the rising crime rate. And the experimentation in relationships in the sixties and the liberation movements also had an impact on family breakdowns.

Exactly, this is the thrust of my point. Any era in which the family unit breaks down cannot be considered an era where trust on the whole increases rather than decreases.

Quote:But no doubt also, the questioning of authority over the great mistake in Vietnam, a magnificent movement for peace that became the first ever peoples' movement to stop a war, left its mark in rising mistrust of institutions. Watergate didn't help either in 1973, nor did revelations of CIA misconduct in 1975. Breakdown in respect for authority and the ghetto riots in the cities set the stage for the rising crime rate, which at the time I saw as an extension of the riots, and it peaked in about 1990. 1966 was the year of the first of the modern mass shootings too. The assassinations in 1968 ignited the gun control movement, and also immediately the reaction against it. And 1966 was also the year that our conspiracy theory culture was born in the questions about the JFK assassination and the Warren Commission, and this was magnified by other theories such as chemtrails in the late 1990s and the 9-11 "inside job" theory in 2001. This too is all based on distrust in authority.

To clarify, I never said all loss of trust was boomer's fault. During the 2T, many of the GIs moved from collectivistic and team oriented to more selfish: finally cashing in their societal chips, taking what they felt they deserved and stepping out of public life and leadership roles.

Quote:Our society has been increasingly polarized since the mid-sixties between those dedicated to the ideals of awareness, liberation, social and economic equity and ecology/consumer rights that blossomed in the sixties, and those dedicated to the reaction by authoritarian religion and the business-culture against these movements. In many ways this "psychedelic" liberation unleashed idealism and creativity and mutual friendliness, and also unleashed the dark sides and repressed and tormented impulses that had been locked inside us too.

I think it's more apt to say the 60s are when the current political parties adopted their modern combination of issues. For example, it used to be the progressives who were more religious and socially conservative. The modern right really is more of a patchwork than the Democrats believe. What most of us have in common is a preference for focusing on smaller social units rather than broad, collective strokes (whether that smaller unit by the family, the church, one's race, etc), and a general focus on self-regulation rather than societal revolution. By all rights, we shouldn't have much power even by this broader definition, we are a minority in the United States, but unlike the many factions of the Democrats, we play nicer with each other (which, unfortunately does also lead to a bit more lack of accountability, but it has the plus of avoiding ridiculous fiascos like the liberal's cancelling of JK Rowling, whom, for liberal millennials at least, gave them like half their values haha).

Quote:So it is best to see the 2T as a mixed bag.

yes. all seasons of history are mixed bags, bringing both necessary solutions to problems, as well as their own fresh problems brought about by over-correction. I have to admit that, as a young person, I'm still trying coming to terms with this.

Quote:You sure do seem to elicit some long essays from me, Mr. Black   I don't know if they make any impression on you though.

Some of them do at least. I'm not afraid of long texts.

(07-11-2022, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not that long ago the Swedes were a major military power, and they ruled over Norway too. And their cars are pretty good. The Nordic nations are the most-equal and best of the developed world on any health and social scale you can name.

This tells me more about their sense of efficiency than about any sense of innovation or entrepreneurial spirit.

(07-11-2022, 09:42 AM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-11-2022, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not that long ago the Swedes were a major military power, and they ruled over Norway too. And their cars are pretty good. The Nordic nations are the most-equal and best of the developed world on any health and social scale you can name.

This tells me more about their sense of efficiency than about any sense of innovation or entrepreneurial spirit.

The car companies, who started them? Volvo, Saab, I believe.

Quote:My only point with this is that broader collective trust was not one of them.

I agree, in the sense of less trust in institutions, since the Vietnam War, Watergate, the general rejection and suspicion of authority, decline of churches, wilder youth cultures, riots, drugs and gangs, family stresses, growth of conspiracy theory, and reactionary libertarian and culture-war movements, etc., since those 2T days.

But in human relationships, beyond families, a greater and broader openness and trust, friendliness, informality and love, a bright feeling of awakening spirit, looser and more authentic manners-- mostly among young people (but all this was not restricted to lefties, as this was not a political movement per se, through stronger in more liberal states and the Left Coast), but also spread to some older folks too to an extent. And the greater acceptance of differences though liberation movements, such as in race, nation, gender, LGBT etc., which grew from those days and from lefties to the general population, and the creative ferment and cultural awakenings and new traditions stimulated by the psychedelic and new age/human potential cultures, liberations, deprogramming of repressions, etc..

There's an old joke about several European nationalities...

What is Heaven like? The Germans are the mechanics, the French are the cooks, the Italians are the lovers, and the Swiss run the hotels.

What is hell like? The Italians are the mechanics, the British are the cooks, the Swiss are the lovers, and the French run the hotels.

I could have the Russians doing well at music and being execrable politicians...

(07-10-2022, 03:40 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2022, 07:51 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 10:32 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2022, 05:54 PM)nguyenivy Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe it's time for a civic generation that is cosmopolitan.

I can see why you would say this, but imo, it is unlikely for reasons listed below. With that said, I'm not against being cosmopolitan (quite the opposite. I have great respect for men of culture). I also don't think these things have to be mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "libertarian nationalist". Part of the reason I am a nationalist is precisely because I love traveling to other countries and experiencing their culture. I want all kinds of countries to be proud of their culture, because I want people in those countries to be inspired to keep doing what their country does best. I want 
- Japan to keep producing the best anime and sushi
- Italy to keep producing the best opera 
- Taiwan to keep producing the best tea
- France to keep producing the best cheese
- Ukraine to keep producing the best music 
and, in our case
- the US to keep producing the best entrepreneurs.

I can't speak very highly of your examples.  I would ceratinly have chosen others.  One stands out as demonstably false: Americ'a dominance in entrepeneurs.  If I asked: which countries produce the most business startups per capita?, that answer would be Sweden and Finland.  Why?  Because the cost of failure is low.  Having a failed business will not deatroy a person or, worse, a family financially.  Given that, it's worth taking the shot -- moreso than here.

Tell me more about all those world famous Swedish and Finnish companies....
Even with policies more favorable in some respects (which is debatable), Scandanavia just...doesn't have the culture of entrepreneurship. The ambition, the apatite for risk, the individualism. Between the two of them, I would probably give the edge to Finland though. The Finns are a proud, hearty race with more of a spine for conflict. Swedes are notoriously passive. Far too much so to be a culture that produces good entrepreneurs in any meaningful quantity.

OK, how about Nokia and Ericsson in the telecom space, Ikea in furniture, H&M in clothing, Skanska in constructon, ABB in energy, Scania in commercial vehicles, Volvo in personal ones, Electrolux in appliances, Atlas Copco in mining and drilling equipment, and I haven't even mentioned the big military contractors that build jets, submarines and just about all of the Nordic nations arms.  Note: most are Swedish, because the Finnish companies are big but less well known.  In any case, here's a list of Finnish companies, and one of Swedish companies.

Just for reference, neither of these countries is large in the populatiion sense.  Sweden has just over 10 Million, and Finalnd has just over 5.5 Million.  Together, they have fewer citizens than New York state ... by a lot!

(07-11-2022, 01:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]There's an old joke about several European nationalities...

What is Heaven like? The Germans are the mechanics, the French are the cooks, the Italians are the lovers, and the Swiss run the hotels.

What is hell like? The Italians are the mechanics, the British are the cooks, the Swiss are the lovers, and the French run the hotels.

I could have the Russians doing well at music and being execrable politicians...

Heaven:

• The police are British
  
  
• The cooks are French
  
  
• The engineers are German
  
  
• The administrators are Swiss
  
  
• The lovers are Italian
  

Hell:

• The police are German
  
  
• The cooks are British
  
  
• The engineers are Italian
  
  
• The administrators are French
  
  
• The lovers are Swiss
  https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/heaven.htm

(07-11-2022, 01:45 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]OK, how about Nokia and Ericsson in the telecom space, Ikea in furniture, H&M in clothing, Skanska in constructon, ABB in energy, Scania in commercial vehicles, Volvo in personal ones, Electrolux in appliances, Atlas Copco in mining and drilling equipment, and I haven't even mentioned the big military contractors that build jets, submarines and just about all of the Nordic nations arms.  Note: most are Swedish, because the Finnish companies are big but less well known.  In any case, here's a list of Finnish companies, and one of Swedish companies.

Just for reference, neither of these countries is large in the populatiion sense.  Sweden has just over 10 Million, and Finalnd has just over 5.5 Million.  Together, they have fewer citizens than New York state ... by a lot!

This is an impressive amount of data. I will concede, I may have under-estimated them a bit, but America's entrepreneurial tradition is still on a whole other level. Millions of the most ambitious immigrants have traveled to our shores for hundreds of years just to get in on the action.

(07-11-2022, 11:47 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-11-2022, 01:45 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]OK, how about Nokia and Ericsson in the telecom space, Ikea in furniture, H&M in clothing, Skanska in constructon, ABB in energy, Scania in commercial vehicles, Volvo in personal ones, Electrolux in appliances, Atlas Copco in mining and drilling equipment, and I haven't even mentioned the big military contractors that build jets, submarines and just about all of the Nordic nations arms.  Note: most are Swedish, because the Finnish companies are big but less well known.  In any case, here's a list of Finnish companies, and one of Swedish companies.

Just for reference, neither of these countries is large in the populatiion sense.  Sweden has just over 10 Million, and Finland has just over 5.5 Million.  Together, they have fewer citizens than New York state ... by a lot!

This is an impressive amount of data. I will concede, I may have under-estimated them a bit, but America's entrepreneurial tradition is still on a whole other level. Millions of the most ambitious immigrants have traveled to our shores for hundreds of years just to get in on the action.

Unfortunately, thanks to over-celebration of entreprenuers in the USA, as opposed to Sweden and nordic countries who have just as many if not more successful entrepreneurs, but fewer deceitful slogans about them, our entreprenuers mostly cannot make it very far in the USA today. Because this celebration has caused neoliberal, trickle down, libertarian economics and free-market ideology to triumph, especially in the last 41 years. This has resulted in enabling and supporting the most ruthless and richest oligarchs instead of real small business people starting out. The small business people in the USA have themselves mostly been deceived that the trickle-down economics propagandists will lower taxes and regulations on them, and that will help them prosper. It's a tempting ploy. But the effect of this neoliberal, free-market policy is exactly the opposite. It has created a USA in which opportunity and social mobility has been blocked, and in which new entreprenuers likely cannot make a go of it.

Again, Nick Hanauer nails it on this point. If the people have no money, who will buy the stuff? Rich people do not create the jobs; the economy, in which poor and middle class people have more money to spend, creates the jobs, which the bosses then have to employ more people to meet their demand. Giving breaks to rich people does not trickle down. It just makes the rich people richer. This is the point that the Swedes understand, and too many Americans who vote Republican DO NOT. 

The government is the collective organ in which people act together to promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty. Libertarian promises are false. We need minimum wage laws, responsible taxes on rich people, and regulations to protect the way workers, consumers and the environment are treated, and to restrict how big capitalists invest their money to prevent crashes.

(07-11-2022, 11:47 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-11-2022, 01:45 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]OK, how about Nokia and Ericsson in the telecom space, Ikea in furniture, H&M in clothing, Skanska in constructon, ABB in energy, Scania in commercial vehicles, Volvo in personal ones, Electrolux in appliances, Atlas Copco in mining and drilling equipment, and I haven't even mentioned the big military contractors that build jets, submarines and just about all of the Nordic nations arms.  Note: most are Swedish, because the Finnish companies are big but less well known.  In any case, here's a list of Finnish companies, and one of Swedish companies.

Just for reference, neither of these countries is large in the populatiion sense.  Sweden has just over 10 Million, and Finalnd has just over 5.5 Million.  Together, they have fewer citizens than New York state ... by a lot!

This is an impressive amount of data. I will concede, I may have under-estimated them a bit, but America's entrepreneurial tradition is still on a whole other level. Millions of the most ambitious immigrants have traveled to our shores for hundreds of years just to get in on the action.

Realize, these two small natiions are just that -- small.  For the US to do as well, we would need a list nearly 30 times the combined lists of these two countries. I doubt we're there.

Let's remember: although nearly every Saeculum has a Civic generation taking on a heroic role in a Crisis (the Gilded ended up filling the role as well as they could) each Saeculum creates its distinct milieu for a Civic generation. Contrast the last Crisis Era, which had very different attitudes toward race relations, women's rights, and homosexuality among fortyish GI's than what we see among Millennials of like age.

Civic/Hero generations are Establishment. They conform to expectations of public behavior of the time, whether such implies butchering First Peoples or establishing slavery or finding such an abomination. We have yet to set norms on many things, and if the norm is crony capitalism with maximal inequality in the name of economic growth even if such brings unremitting misery, then the Millennial Generation will acquiesce. We have yet to see whether the pattern for political discourse and conduct resembles such opposite models as Obama or Trump. I am satisfied that it will be one or the other, with anyone still connected to the 'wrong' model being damned to poverty, harassment, shame, and even imprisonment. You all know where I stand on that one, with Obama-like behavior solving more problems than it creates and Trumpism as a means to ruin of America in multiple ways.

Imagine that the Hard Right offers crony capitalism with fundamentalist religion that promises that in return for selfless suffering on behalf of rapacious, demanding elites and the rejection of the intellectual values of the Enlightenment that one will at least have promises of pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die... and that those Americans who mock such an offering had better find another country in which to live or have very strong faith that allows them to believe that exploiters, abusers, and superstition-mongers will be the ones headed to Hell. History has shown plenty of fates worse than death, and I can imagine ultra-capitalists using Protestant fundamentalism as a means of rewarding people in This World while punishing people in This World who fail to obey. In a Christian version of Iran or Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, a modernized version of Roman spectacles or the auto-da-fe of the Inquisition is possible. Maybe they feed heretics or dissidents to crocodiles in an aquarium instead of feeding Christians to lions, bears, or tigers in Roman circuses. Self-righteous sadism is no better than the brutal means of enforcement of gangsters of the Capone era who rarely pretended to high moral purpose.

Of course I hope for better. I can think of technological surrogates for consumption that we consider real. Starting with food -- we may get faux meat that will have the same texture, coloring, and taste of the invertebrates, fish, birds, and mammals that we used to butcher. Let's see -- beef on Sunday, perch on Monday, pork on Tuesday, clam chowder on Wednesday, venison on Thursday, salmon on Friday, and lobster on Saturday... and because it will be faux meat the fake pork, clams, venison, and lobster will even be kosher. If you live in Iowa and want to see a great coast you could choose California 1, Michigan 22, or perhaps the route along the French Riviera (among other attractive places). You can ride your fake Harley to take it in at its best, and in complete safety. You will have live tours of museums and live concerts, operas, and plays beamed into your tiny, windowless flat -- except that your flat will have simulated windows that will give you a full view of an automobile graveyard if you are a masochist (most of us will think of other things. The point is that you might not need an automobile to tool around with. Much work that can be remote will be remote. Let's remember that resource depletion and global warming can give us huge problems arising from eating real meat and burning up huge amounts of energy for fun and profit. We will be able even to simulate hikes in nature because we can be surrounded by its simulation.

Status symbols will be pointless. Maybe our real consumption will be on the decline... just in time to thwart global warming.