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...assuming you embrace the theory. Or rather, can we expect borders around the world to change significantly in 15-20 years. Perhaps the US won't "break up" but perhaps it may get trimmed a bit the way Russia did after the fall of the Soviet Union. Could NYC become semi-autonomous like Hong Kong, or even its own country like Singapore? What are people's thoughts?
For America it all depends on how we behave ourselves. A good America will likely get through this Crisis Era if the rest of the world does, and probably in better shape at its end. A bad America stands to be ruined, with many Americans (including politicians, capitalists, financiers, military officers, and media figures) subjected to harsh judgment for their crimes. America could be partitioned in full or part.

Imagine that this Crisis is the mirror image of the last, except that the Japanese are the good guys and victors. Some Japanese general compels American leadership to sign a term of surrender, takes up residence along with his staff in the Fairmont or Mark Hopkins in San Francisco, and starts dictating change in American institutions from economics to education. It's all reasonable. Japanese language lessons begin promptly in American schools, corrupt businesses get broken up, and really bad guys get arrested. Adults who have recently had cushy jobs are compelled to be farm laborers or unskilled construction workers.
I'm definitely getting the feeling that the technological momentum is going to lead to a Decentralization.

Less power at the top of massive organizations/governments.

More individualized systems, more self-sufficiency, less dependence are large centralized systems.
(07-01-2016, 10:53 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]I predict this 4T will result in another 1648 or even something more drastic than that.

Why 1648?
(07-01-2016, 03:21 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-01-2016, 10:53 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]I predict this 4T will result in another 1648 or even something more drastic than that.

Why 1648?

Peace of Westphalia ending the Thirty Years' War, one of the nastiest wars ever in Europe.

Freedom of religion was established in much of Europe.

Switzerland got formal independence. Spain had to recognize the independence of the Netherlands.

Prussia gained territories that would make it the biggest power in northern Germany.
Thirty Years War ending with the Peace of Westphalia. Switzerland got formal independence, Spain had to recognize the reality of Dutch independence, Prussia became the leading power in northern Germany, religious freedom was recognized for Catholics, Calvinists, and Lutherans. The worst war in Europe before the 20th century, and one proportionately as lethal in some places as World War , was over. I
I have to believe that a lot of the borders in the middle east which were lines drawn on a map with little regard to on-the-ground realities will get reworked. I doubt that there will be any major reworking of borders throughout the west, although with the events of the past few weeks the UK could cease to exist resulting in hard borders between the member states.
(07-04-2016, 10:52 AM)tg63 Wrote: [ -> ]I have to believe that a lot of the borders in the middle east which were lines drawn on a map with little regard to on-the-ground realities will get reworked. I doubt that there will be any major reworking of borders throughout the west, although with the events of the past few weeks the UK could cease to exist resulting in hard borders between the member states.
There's a real possibility that the map of the British Isles will change, with the UK fracturing. Because of Brexit, much of Scotland wants out so they can rejoin the EU. Also, Northern Ireland isn't happy about the notion of a border again between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
(07-01-2016, 12:39 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]I'm definitely getting the feeling that the technological momentum is going to lead to a Decentralization.

Less power at the top of massive organizations/governments.

More individualized systems, more self-sufficiency, less dependence are large centralized systems.

Greater connection and interchange is growing along with technology that might enable decentralization.
We are seeing the Crisis of the transition to an age without scarcity of the basics of life. Computer power is so cheap that anyone who wishes to get any worthy material for enjoyment can get it (already true -- as we have free access to a plethora of books and concerts) . 3D printing will make centralized production and distribution of trinkets a non-distinction in life. Commodity fetishes will become irrelevant. Status symbols will lose their significance. Virtual reality will allow people to have a windowless apartment (that will allow mass housing of a form that we have never tolerated) with a simulation of a great view. You could be in Kansas City and have an excellent view of the (San Francisco) Bay from your "bay window". Or maybe the Kansas City stockyards if such is your taste.

Of course, real estate will not be cheap barring a genocidal war that decimates humanity. People will get simulated views and even experiences of vacations. One might even get a simulation of climbing Mount Everest (I have no desire to do the real thing -- it's just too dangerous and difficult for my taste).

We will be working far fewer hours than was the norm at the end of the last 4T -- barring the catastrophic destruction of cities as during World War II. The tools of warfare are much deadlier than those that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
(07-29-2016, 12:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]We are seeing the Crisis of the transition to an age without scarcity of the basics of life. Computer power is so cheap that anyone who wishes to get any worthy material for enjoyment can get it (already true -- as we have free access to a plethora of books and concerts) . 3D printing will make centralized production and distribution of trinkets a non-distinction in life. Commodity fetishes will become irrelevant. Status symbols will lose their significance. Virtual reality will allow people to have a windowless apartment (that will allow mass housing of a form that we have never tolerated) with a simulation of a great view. You could be in Kansas City and have an excellent view of the (San Francisco) Bay from your "bay window". Or maybe the Kansas City stockyards if such is your taste.

Of course, real estate will not be cheap barring a genocidal war that decimates humanity. People will get simulated views and even experiences of vacations. One might even get a simulation of climbing Mount Everest (I have no desire to do the real thing -- it's just too dangerous and difficult for my taste).

We will be working far fewer hours than was the norm at the end of the last 4T -- barring the catastrophic destruction of cities as during World War II.  The tools of warfare are much deadlier than those that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Then what would the purpose of the 4T be? Would there be an economic crisis or a war that would cause all of these chamges to be made?
(07-29-2016, 12:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]We are seeing the Crisis of the transition to an age without scarcity of the basics of life. Computer power is so cheap that anyone who wishes to get any worthy material for enjoyment can get it (already true -- as we have free access to a plethora of books and concerts) . 3D printing will make centralized production and distribution of trinkets a non-distinction in life. Commodity fetishes will become irrelevant. Status symbols will lose their significance. Virtual reality will allow people to have a windowless apartment (that will allow mass housing of a form that we have never tolerated) with a simulation of a great view. You could be in Kansas City and have an excellent view of the (San Francisco) Bay from your "bay window". Or maybe the Kansas City stockyards if such is your taste.

Of course, real estate will not be cheap barring a genocidal war that decimates humanity. People will get simulated views and even experiences of vacations. One might even get a simulation of climbing Mount Everest (I have no desire to do the real thing -- it's just too dangerous and difficult for my taste).

We will be working far fewer hours than was the norm at the end of the last 4T -- barring the catastrophic destruction of cities as during World War II.  The tools of warfare are much deadlier than those that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Do you think the future will be where people are so addicted to virtual reality that they don't interact with other people often? Where people spend more time in virtual parks then actual parks and where people don't form relationships because they're constantly with virtual partners? Where people refuse to go outside or interact with people because the virtual world is more fascinating? Kind of like being trapped in a Matrix.
(07-30-2016, 06:20 PM)disasterzone Wrote: [ -> ]Do you think the future will be where people are so addicted to virtual reality that they don't interact with other people often? Where people spend more time in virtual parks then actual parks and where people don't form relationships because they're constantly with virtual partners? Where people refuse to go outside or interact with people because the virtual world is more fascinating? Kind of like being trapped in a Matrix.

Yes I think so, and it could be an issue in the upcoming 2T/Awakening.
(07-30-2016, 06:20 PM)disasterzone Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-29-2016, 12:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]We are seeing the Crisis of the transition to an age without scarcity of the basics of life. Computer power is so cheap that anyone who wishes to get any worthy material for enjoyment can get it (already true -- as we have free access to a plethora of books and concerts) . 3D printing will make centralized production and distribution of trinkets a non-distinction in life. Commodity fetishes will become irrelevant. Status symbols will lose their significance. Virtual reality will allow people to have a windowless apartment (that will allow mass housing of a form that we have never tolerated) with a simulation of a great view. You could be in Kansas City and have an excellent view of the (San Francisco) Bay from your "bay window". Or maybe the Kansas City stockyards if such is your taste.

Of course, real estate will not be cheap barring a genocidal war that decimates humanity. People will get simulated views and even experiences of vacations. One might even get a simulation of climbing Mount Everest (I have no desire to do the real thing -- it's just too dangerous and difficult for my taste).

We will be working far fewer hours than was the norm at the end of the last 4T -- barring the catastrophic destruction of cities as during World War II.  The tools of warfare are much deadlier than those that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Do you think the future will be where people are so addicted to virtual reality that they don't interact with other people often? Where people spend more time in virtual parks then actual parks and where people don't form relationships because they're constantly with virtual partners? Where people refuse to go outside or interact with people because the virtual world is more fascinating? Kind of like being trapped in a Matrix.
That is already happening now.
(07-30-2016, 10:16 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 06:20 PM)disasterzone Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-29-2016, 12:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]We are seeing the Crisis of the transition to an age without scarcity of the basics of life. Computer power is so cheap that anyone who wishes to get any worthy material for enjoyment can get it (already true -- as we have free access to a plethora of books and concerts) . 3D printing will make centralized production and distribution of trinkets a non-distinction in life. Commodity fetishes will become irrelevant. Status symbols will lose their significance. Virtual reality will allow people to have a windowless apartment (that will allow mass housing of a form that we have never tolerated) with a simulation of a great view. You could be in Kansas City and have an excellent view of the (San Francisco) Bay from your "bay window". Or maybe the Kansas City stockyards if such is your taste.

Of course, real estate will not be cheap barring a genocidal war that decimates humanity. People will get simulated views and even experiences of vacations. One might even get a simulation of climbing Mount Everest (I have no desire to do the real thing -- it's just too dangerous and difficult for my taste).

We will be working far fewer hours than was the norm at the end of the last 4T -- barring the catastrophic destruction of cities as during World War II.  The tools of warfare are much deadlier than those that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Do you think the future will be where people are so addicted to virtual reality that they don't interact with other people often? Where people spend more time in virtual parks then actual parks and where people don't form relationships because they're constantly with virtual partners? Where people refuse to go outside or interact with people because the virtual world is more fascinating? Kind of like being trapped in a Matrix.

That is already happening now.

Who would run this virtual infrastructure? There is a possibility that this virtual infrastructure could turn out to be better than our own so people in the real world would end up wanting to stay there. If everyone does that, would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside? How would we even take care of ourselves in the real world if we were trapped inside the virtual one? Or we would not need to because our bodies will have evolved past that, but that wouldn't happen for thousands of years.
(07-30-2016, 11:02 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 10:16 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 06:20 PM)disasterzone Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-29-2016, 12:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]We are seeing the Crisis of the transition to an age without scarcity of the basics of life. Computer power is so cheap that anyone who wishes to get any worthy material for enjoyment can get it (already true -- as we have free access to a plethora of books and concerts) . 3D printing will make centralized production and distribution of trinkets a non-distinction in life. Commodity fetishes will become irrelevant. Status symbols will lose their significance. Virtual reality will allow people to have a windowless apartment (that will allow mass housing of a form that we have never tolerated) with a simulation of a great view. You could be in Kansas City and have an excellent view of the (San Francisco) Bay from your "bay window". Or maybe the Kansas City stockyards if such is your taste.

Of course, real estate will not be cheap barring a genocidal war that decimates humanity. People will get simulated views and even experiences of vacations. One might even get a simulation of climbing Mount Everest (I have no desire to do the real thing -- it's just too dangerous and difficult for my taste).

We will be working far fewer hours than was the norm at the end of the last 4T -- barring the catastrophic destruction of cities as during World War II.  The tools of warfare are much deadlier than those that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Do you think the future will be where people are so addicted to virtual reality that they don't interact with other people often? Where people spend more time in virtual parks then actual parks and where people don't form relationships because they're constantly with virtual partners? Where people refuse to go outside or interact with people because the virtual world is more fascinating? Kind of like being trapped in a Matrix.

That is already happening now.

Who would run this virtual infrastructure? There is a possibility that this virtual infrastructure could turn out to be better than our own so people in the real world would end up wanting to stay there. If everyone does that, would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside? How would we even take care of ourselves in the real world if we were trapped inside the virtual one? Or we would not need to because our bodies will have evolved past that, but that wouldn't happen for thousands of years.

Individuals run their own businesses online now. We do not need tv as we have youtube and netflix etc which are businesses online. We do not need libraries as we have all the info we need online. We talk to people online. We shop online. We do all of that now. The next step would be Matrix style. It would be the same as the outside. People creating their own businesses but online. So would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside. We could as we already do. But if you mean sending brain wave signals  to a machine....well we already do that. There have been prosthetic technology that are wired to the brain to allow people to see or move new arms and legs. We can already do that.
(07-30-2016, 11:18 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:02 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 10:16 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 06:20 PM)disasterzone Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-29-2016, 12:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]We are seeing the Crisis of the transition to an age without scarcity of the basics of life. Computer power is so cheap that anyone who wishes to get any worthy material for enjoyment can get it (already true -- as we have free access to a plethora of books and concerts) . 3D printing will make centralized production and distribution of trinkets a non-distinction in life. Commodity fetishes will become irrelevant. Status symbols will lose their significance. Virtual reality will allow people to have a windowless apartment (that will allow mass housing of a form that we have never tolerated) with a simulation of a great view. You could be in Kansas City and have an excellent view of the (San Francisco) Bay from your "bay window". Or maybe the Kansas City stockyards if such is your taste.

Of course, real estate will not be cheap barring a genocidal war that decimates humanity. People will get simulated views and even experiences of vacations. One might even get a simulation of climbing Mount Everest (I have no desire to do the real thing -- it's just too dangerous and difficult for my taste).

We will be working far fewer hours than was the norm at the end of the last 4T -- barring the catastrophic destruction of cities as during World War II.  The tools of warfare are much deadlier than those that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Do you think the future will be where people are so addicted to virtual reality that they don't interact with other people often? Where people spend more time in virtual parks then actual parks and where people don't form relationships because they're constantly with virtual partners? Where people refuse to go outside or interact with people because the virtual world is more fascinating? Kind of like being trapped in a Matrix.

That is already happening now.

Who would run this virtual infrastructure? There is a possibility that this virtual infrastructure could turn out to be better than our own so people in the real world would end up wanting to stay there. If everyone does that, would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside? How would we even take care of ourselves in the real world if we were trapped inside the virtual one? Or we would not need to because our bodies will have evolved past that, but that wouldn't happen for thousands of years.

Individuals run their own businesses online now. We do not need tv as we have youtube and netflix etc which are businesses online. We do not need libraries as we have all the info we need online. We talk to people online. We shop online. We do all of that now. The next step would be Matrix style. It would be the same as the outside. People creating their own businesses but online. So would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside. We could as we already do. But if you mean sending brain wave signals  to a machine....well we already do that. There have been prosthetic technology that are wired to the brain to allow people to see or move new arms and legs. We can already do that.

Our bodies are gonna waste away if we're trapped in the virtual world.
(07-30-2016, 11:48 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:18 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:02 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 10:16 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 06:20 PM)disasterzone Wrote: [ -> ]Do you think the future will be where people are so addicted to virtual reality that they don't interact with other people often? Where people spend more time in virtual parks then actual parks and where people don't form relationships because they're constantly with virtual partners? Where people refuse to go outside or interact with people because the virtual world is more fascinating? Kind of like being trapped in a Matrix.

That is already happening now.

Who would run this virtual infrastructure? There is a possibility that this virtual infrastructure could turn out to be better than our own so people in the real world would end up wanting to stay there. If everyone does that, would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside? How would we even take care of ourselves in the real world if we were trapped inside the virtual one? Or we would not need to because our bodies will have evolved past that, but that wouldn't happen for thousands of years.

Individuals run their own businesses online now. We do not need tv as we have youtube and netflix etc which are businesses online. We do not need libraries as we have all the info we need online. We talk to people online. We shop online. We do all of that now. The next step would be Matrix style. It would be the same as the outside. People creating their own businesses but online. So would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside. We could as we already do. But if you mean sending brain wave signals  to a machine....well we already do that. There have been prosthetic technology that are wired to the brain to allow people to see or move new arms and legs. We can already do that.

Our bodies are gonna waste away if we're trapped in the virtual world.

Again that is already happening. But instead of wasting away we are getting fatter. Turn to Wall-E for reference on relying on technology for everything.
(07-30-2016, 11:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:48 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:18 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:02 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 10:16 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]That is already happening now.

Who would run this virtual infrastructure? There is a possibility that this virtual infrastructure could turn out to be better than our own so people in the real world would end up wanting to stay there. If everyone does that, would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside? How would we even take care of ourselves in the real world if we were trapped inside the virtual one? Or we would not need to because our bodies will have evolved past that, but that wouldn't happen for thousands of years.

Individuals run their own businesses online now. We do not need tv as we have youtube and netflix etc which are businesses online. We do not need libraries as we have all the info we need online. We talk to people online. We shop online. We do all of that now. The next step would be Matrix style. It would be the same as the outside. People creating their own businesses but online. So would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside. We could as we already do. But if you mean sending brain wave signals  to a machine....well we already do that. There have been prosthetic technology that are wired to the brain to allow people to see or move new arms and legs. We can already do that.

Our bodies are gonna waste away if we're trapped in the virtual world.

Again that is already happening. But instead of wasting away we are getting fatter. Turn to Wall-E for reference on relying on technology for everything.

Kind of the point I wanted to make. I had Wall-E in mind while writing that last post. But if we were entirely in the virtual world, we wouldn't be able to eat or sleep or do anything to take care of ourselves in the real world.
(07-31-2016, 02:25 AM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:50 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:48 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:18 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-30-2016, 11:02 PM)MillsT_98 Wrote: [ -> ]Who would run this virtual infrastructure? There is a possibility that this virtual infrastructure could turn out to be better than our own so people in the real world would end up wanting to stay there. If everyone does that, would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside? How would we even take care of ourselves in the real world if we were trapped inside the virtual one? Or we would not need to because our bodies will have evolved past that, but that wouldn't happen for thousands of years.

Individuals run their own businesses online now. We do not need tv as we have youtube and netflix etc which are businesses online. We do not need libraries as we have all the info we need online. We talk to people online. We shop online. We do all of that now. The next step would be Matrix style. It would be the same as the outside. People creating their own businesses but online. So would we be able to run the virtual world from the inside. We could as we already do. But if you mean sending brain wave signals  to a machine....well we already do that. There have been prosthetic technology that are wired to the brain to allow people to see or move new arms and legs. We can already do that.

Our bodies are gonna waste away if we're trapped in the virtual world.

Again that is already happening. But instead of wasting away we are getting fatter. Turn to Wall-E for reference on relying on technology for everything.

Kind of the point I wanted to make. I had Wall-E in mind while writing that last post. But if we were entirely in the virtual world, we wouldn't be able to eat or sleep or do anything to take care of ourselves in the real world.

Many who have an addiction to the internet or even gaming (other than online) are also doing that right now. I have heard of some cases where people drop dead from exhaustion. Others, they are too busy to look after their real infants and are raising others on games like half life. One case i heard of, the baby was screaming and distracting the player. She went into a wild rage and shook her baby so hard it died. She then went back to playing farmville. They are more interested with online life than the real world. Quite a common addiction nowadays. I often wonder if it will get worse or if a rebellion will happen. Most likely the latter. As it will deprive the next generation of their parents attention (for those whose parents are addicted). It is so common there are facilities out there that TREAT internet addiction! I also wonder if people will draw themselves away from it themselves as they grow nostalgic for simpler days before all the drams online. I mean the 4T has really hit the online community real bad. So much trolling. I know of a few people who are now spending less time online due to it. Some are millennial friends of mine.
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