Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(11-14-2020, 02:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-14-2020, 01:14 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-14-2020, 12:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-13-2020, 03:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Liberalism is the diametric opposite of fascism.

I am careful to avoid calling any elected official a word referring to feces. I will save that for...

What's your point? You're not careful to avoid calling elected officials that you don't like something bad and neither am I. Dude, I'd call her a piece of shit to her face and if she wants to call me a racist for doing it that's fine because there's plenty of proof that I'm not one. Dude, this country is becoming American minority enough to strip a piece of shit black woman of every special protection that she thinks/feels she has today. Times are changing and the American people are waking up. The Democratic people are still centered on themselves and their issues. The only shared issue is COVID right now.

That's another problem; COVID is not a shared issue because your side has politicized it and encouraged people not to wear masks or socially distance or get tested. Is your side going to get vaccinated?

Biden ran on COVID, the blue media conducted a COVID fear campaign for months that traumatized a significant portion of the country and Biden probably won the election because of it and now you're accusing me/ our side of politicizing it. Give me a break. Do we really need to get vaccinated when those who are at high risk are vaccinated? Dude, I've been out and about in public working and shopping and socializing during the pandemic for months. I know that I've either been directly exposed or actually had it in January after Christmas or probably had it without knowing it. I assume the older/high risk people will get vaccinated despite Biden being in office. They're not a bunch of traumatized Biden supporters, so I doubt Biden being in office will matter to them like it would have with the Democratic supporters with Trump in office.

Nearly a quarter-million people have died in America of COVID-19 in roughly nine months. That is seven times as many deaths as is normal from vehicle-related deaths in one year. America has done much to reduce the deaths from vehicle-related incidents. You ought to contrast the death rate per vehicle mile of the mid-1930's (when vehicle speeds were first as fast as they are today) to now. Many realities go into the reduction of the traffic death rate, from mandatory licensing, speed radar, driver's training for teen drivers, better highways, increasingly-rigid DUI laws, and safer cars. People drive more miles, but in better cars and on better roads, and more likely in highly-regimented commuter traffic. 

I can contrast COVID-19 to AIDS, which spread through (at first) skin grafts, blood transfusions, and needle-pricks as well as IV drug use and sexual contact. Medical practice was able to make the first three a non-factor by testing blood and tissue for HIV. The latter two were more difficult to reduce because IV drug users and sexual addicts are incredibly reckless. Medical science has found ways to make HIV/AIDS something that people can live with if they have it -- at high cost. COVID-19 spreads more easily but is less likely to kill. Still, death by COVID-19 ends all too often on a respirator, a desperate effort to keep someone breathing. 

Infections are up, and COVID-19 has ugly sequelae. Secondary damage to organs is possible. That is an analog in some ways to the influenza outbreak of a century ago, which may explain (along with having been the heaviest smokers in American history by generation) the comparatively-low life expectancy of the Lost. 

So much for my comments about COVID-19. Read instead what the experts have to say, if in language suitable for the lay public..

The vaccine will not be available fast enough to stop the current outbreak and deaths and incapacitation (and shortened lives) therefrom. So keep the bars closed and keep get-togethers and parties small (ideally just put them off until a large part of the American population is vaccinated against it with something safe, effective, and cheaply available. Do get a flu shot, which is available cheaply because you do not want to be referred to a hospital for the flu only to contract COVID-19 in the bargain.  

Nearly 250,000 Americans have died of COVID-19. Although some state officials (in both Parties!) the medical profession, medical science, and Big Business did their roles in constraining COVID-19, Trump got in the way. It is amazing that he came so close to being re-elected. Blue states, and especially Red states with governors (Kansas, Kentucky, and Louisiana) or Red States (Indiana, Ohio even if it is a swing state) did far better at suppressing COVID-19 than did swing states  and Red States with governors who chose to let the economy move along without constraint. 

Donald Trump failed at his role in defending Americans from an insidious, lethal invader.

(11-14-2020, 12:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-13-2020, 03:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Liberalism is the diametric opposite of fascism.

I am careful to avoid calling any elected official a word referring to feces. I will save that for...

What's your point? You're not careful to avoid calling elected officials that you don't like something bad and neither am I. Dude, I'd call her a piece of shit to her face and if she wants to call me a racist for doing it that's fine because there's plenty of proof that I'm not one. Dude, this country is becoming American minority enough to strip a piece of shit black woman of every special protection that she thinks/feels she has today. Times are changing and the American people are waking up. The Democratic people are still centered on themselves and their issues. The only shared issue is COVID right now.

If I am going to compare anyone to feces it is going to be someone incontrovertibly horrible. By saying such about Ilhan Omar you have insulted the majority of people in her district, a majority of her district voting for her. 

I have no problem calling anyone out for investigation that may lead to prosecution, conviction, and imprisonment for threatening an elected official with any form of violence or plotting harm (including kidnapping). I live in Michigan and I have good cause to be touchy about terrorism. Were this about some elected arch-conservative Republican in let us say Wyoming I would be similarly troubled. We choose our politicians with ballots, and if we remove them for gross misconduct we do so with ballots -- not bullets.

Elected officials deserve special protection because elections matter. If they don't matter because some politicized militia can nullify an election with some violent act -- then any semblance of democracy is kaputt.

Yes, I called out an Arizona congressman for standing for violent protesters claiming that the 2020 Presidential election is a fraud. Claiming that the election is fraudulent is one thing (free speech),but bringing in armed militias? That is very wrong. 

Were I a Congressman I would vote to censure Gosar for that. He made a mistake, and it is best that he never make the same mistake again. It would be wrong if someone on my side did that.

(11-14-2020, 12:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Times are changing and the American people are waking up. The Democratic people are still centered on themselves and their issues. The only shared issue is COVID right now.

Not seeing the red increasing their violence, instigating outrage due to their loss. Just chickens clucking. Don't blame people for being concerned with the negligent homicide the Republicans instigated on a grand scale, or for the systematic murder of minorities. Again, still early to see who comes out winning in the battle for the Republican base.

But let's see the transition play out first.

(11-14-2020, 02:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden ran on COVID, the blue media conducted a COVID fear campaign for months that traumatized a significant portion of the country and Biden probably won the election because of it and now you're accusing me/ our side of politicizing it. Give me a break.

From my perspective, the trauma was caused by COVID and Trump’s campaign to maximize the death count.  Biden if anything is doing what he can to end this trauma as soon as possible.  Trump’s instigating death was a misguided attempt to help the economy and thus get reelected.  Thus, he killed for political gain.  So, yes, he politicized the virus.

At this point, the red have fallen for this polarization.  They are going around believing that the virus is a hoax or that they don’t have to take it seriously, which is a good thing.  A red death wish is fine.  There will be only so many doses of the vaccine to go around at first.  Let them die in their vain attempt to save Trump.  That assumes they won’t come to their senses before the vaccine is readily available.  At the rate the virus is increasing, as the hospitals are getting near or past overload, the seriousness of the bug might possibly get through even to the reds.

I don’t know.  They are pretending there is no threat awfully hard.  How many deaths are required before even a red notices them?

(11-20-2020, 11:30 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I just found this interesting from a farm owner in the usa as i read so many messages from republican voters who vote that way partly due to farm profit, but then there is this. Wonder what they would think? Unfortunately i cant copy and paste a screenshot here it seems. Not on my phone. If someone could let me know how to fo that i have the screenshot. But otherwise, here is a copy and paste of her message.


"I'd just like point out something regarding "Trump's economy." I'm part owner in a family farm. These last several years under Trump have been devastating to family farmers. I can only really speak about corn and soybean prices, because that's what we grow, but an amazing thing has happened beginning on Nov 3rd. Soybean and corn prices have been steadily shooting up since that date. Especially soybean prices which have roared back and even topped prices we haven't seen since June of 2016 when Obama was president! I might actually turn a profit this year! So not only am I very happy, this is also telling me something...Trump was horrible for trade, and likely the entire economy. I wonder how much better those 401ks might have done if Trump had never been elected. It's possible, even better."

Thoughts?

That would explain why states with much reliance on farm income (Iowa is the definitive agribusiness state) that were hostile to Trump for his trade war as shown in polling (I recall seeing a poll in which Trump had 60% disapproval) could swing back toward him. Note well that as manufacturing declines in the Rust Belt, agriculture becomes relatively more important in such states as Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.

From what I understand, Trump bought votes in rural areas with massive farm subsidies, which can explain the huge margins for him in the Great Plains and such a state as Indiana... and how he barely lost Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. 

Trump recognizes something that few of us want to admit: that most of us care more about our economic position than about human kindness and dignity, war, healthy conditions for ourselves or the environment, human rights, or civil liberties. Nearly 250,000 people had died of COVID-19 due to the incompetence and insensitivity of that horrid man, and he still won more votes and even a larger share of the total vote in 2016. 

I hate to say this, but a President could institute a pogrom, but so long as the economy is doing well enough he would get re-elected. Trump did authorize, informally and without documentation but the reality shows it, a veritable secret police that lacked only a name to harass political opponents.

We Americans were only 37 electoral votes away from a dictatorship, the sort in which people lose their private-sector jobs if they say things like I have posted here and elsewhere, in which activists and troublesome journalists 'disappear', in which people get beaten for protesting police brutality, in which strikers get mowed down... and most people are expected to know that things could be far worse if the Great and Glorious Leader so wanted and we are wise to be thankful that such is not so. 

I doubt that Americans have learned that liberty is worth some "good trouble" as the late John Lewis put it and even some economic hardship. Anything that anyone gets by sacrificing liberty is something that one has at best a precarious hold upon. Basic rights become privileges that can vanish quickly. A teaching credential? If some kid wants to take revenge against you for correcting his grammar, then you ain't got no chance of teachin' skool next year or maybe like never. Religious ordination? You could lose it if you compare the Great and Glorious Leader to an idol with clay feet... and perhaps end up in a labor camp. Certified Public Accountant? Say something unflattering about the Fueh... excuse me, the President... while a bit sauced at the Christmas party, and you might lose your job and your CPA license because some subordinate who wants your job will report you. Blackmail, kickbacks, and poison-pen letters become normal parts of daily life. We aren't clearly better than the Germans under Hitler or the Russians under Stalin.  Judeo-Christian heritage? We are approaching the end of the Presidency of someone whose behavior was a mockery of those. (I'm not knocking an atheist like my very distant cousin Bertrand Russell, whose morality simply abandons the prudery and superstition that don't make human goodness.

CNN has articles up that highlight Trump's court defeats in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia and Nevada.  You call that equal coverage???  It ought to be balanced, showing the mighty Trump victories in...  In...  In...

In other news, two mysterious anvils were reported seen in the deserts of New Mexico.

It's over. Trump cannot win.

(11-26-2020, 01:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It's over. Trump cannot win.

Not quite.  The recount and silly lawsuit phase is about over.  The revenge and pardon phases are beginning.  After inauguration, there has to be a fight to see who gets control of the Republican remnants.  Will Biden be able to deliver on his promises, or will Republican obstructionism continue?

One phase is over, but there are a bunch of things that have yet to play out.

(11-26-2020, 04:24 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-26-2020, 01:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It's over. Trump cannot win.

Not quite.  The recount and silly lawsuit phase is about over.  The revenge and pardon phases are beginning.  After inauguration, there has to be a fight to see who gets control of the Republican remnants.  Will Biden be able to deliver on his promises, or will Republican obstructionism continue?

One phase is over, but there are a bunch of things that have yet to play out.

The 2020 election is over. Trump cannot win. Joe Biden has enough cushion in his win that if something goes screwy in any state that he won by less than 5%, such will not be enough. Trump is asking for behavior by state legislatures that has no precedent, such as a state legislature overriding the electoral result. 

Of course I expect President Trump to take revenge, and if he does not get to pardon himself or doesn't resign so that President Pence pardons him, then he will put pressure upon President Biden. His cult remains and it will protest any legal action against the Idol with Clay Feet. (References from the Torah present themselves, do they not!)  

It would be best for Republicans that they take their licks and re-organize. They have an agenda other than the personality of Donald Trump: tax cuts for the Master Classes, regulatory relief, evisceration of labor unions, and elimination of the welfare state. The common man is in its perverse ideal to be compelled to great responsibility to enrich, defend, and indulge people of great power and wealth and no responsibility, people who remind me of the aristocratic and plutocratic elites of Germany before 1933. Those people backed you-know-who and made his rise possible. 

I don't say that a demagogue who vilifies the one model minority (German Jews) could win America over*; there are multiple model minorities in America (Jews, Muslims, East/South/Southeast Asians, middle-class Hispanics, and LGBT people), and most white people can relate to at least one of these groups. The slogan "Make America Great Again" means to Trump cultists (who will likely find someone else after Trump as their Idol who touches the right keys on the organ) whatever they want it to be... but I interpret it as a return to the dominant ideology of the 1920's with a concession only to technologies. America had at most a tiny middle class in the 1920's and didn't become largely middle-class (or at least well-paid industrial workers who at least had middle-income wages) until after World War II and decided that the vast majority of Americans (maybe blacks and Hispanics excluded) deserved such.

I expect the Republican Party, which largely represents America's big farmers, big urban landlords, industrialists, financiers, and executives to act much like the elites of Germany in the Weimar Republic and insist upon making America great -- for themselves alone! They want government to represent wealth and bureaucratic power within corporate America at the expense of all else. I expect the Hard Right to push another mass movement similar to the Tea Party that endorses a Profits-First economy in every aspect of life so that America can be great again -- if by that one means the 1920's except for having better roads (with hefty tolls attached), better technology of medicine (but fiendishly expensive so people must choose between impoverishing their friends and relatives and dying), and technologies of entertainment (which people won't get to enjoy because they will work 70 hours a week for food, rent, warmth, and rags... maybe commute costs) that will be  turned into technologies of surveillance. These elites want economic rent -- easy money for plutocrats -- to dominate the economy. It is a new form of aristocracy.

Allegedly the rule of the "betters", aristocracy almost invariably degenerates into an order of class privilege in which the rulers are responsible only to themselves. I count on the irresponsible rich putting emphasis on fossil fuels over solar power unless they can get command of solar power. I expect them to want wars for profit, as in 'liberating' Cuba and Venezuela. If those elites get their way then we all have nothing to for which to strive except for Pie In the Sky When You Die, such to be earned by slave-like dedication to an effete but rapacious Master Class.

*There was nothing wrong with the German people before 1945 that Judaism would not have solved. They would have had to give up the 'master race' hogwash incompatible with Judaism, but that would have saved Germans and those that they ended up brutalizing much grief. Traditional German cuisine is about as far from kosher as is possible, but there is Reform.

(11-26-2020, 01:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It's over. Trump cannot win.

Not that I think you are wrong, but some internet flame warriors are still projecting that with the next inevitable court victory all will be well on Earth 2.  An example from YouTube..

It is not that I am worried that they will win anything significant, but that by keeping the law suits alive they are building an idea that the court cases have some merit

(11-28-2020, 11:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-26-2020, 01:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It's over. Trump cannot win.

Not that I think you are wrong, but some internet flame warriors are still projecting that with the next inevitable court victory all will be well on Earth 2.  An example from YouTube..

It is not that I am worried that they will win anything significant, but that by keeping the law suits alive they are building an idea that the court cases have some merit

There are two potential outcomes: both bad.  Outcome #1 makes the obstructionism a permanent political feature, with RW Billionaires funding all sorts of legal and political mayhem. Outcome#2 leads directly to violence.  

Biden is already a lame duck by virtue of his age. Worse, the entire Democratic leadership team are way past their use-by dates.  If the Dems continue with this, it will be RBG all over again.  BTW, I'm still pissed at her for being so selfish, not that it's important now.  Back on topic: the Dems aren't ready to fight the next round with all Silent leadership.  The GOP may just win by default.

(11-29-2020, 08:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]There are two potential outcomes: both bad.  Outcome #1 makes the obstructionism a permanent political feature, with RW Billionaires funding all sorts of legal and political mayhem. Outcome#2 leads directly to violence.  

Biden is already a lame duck by virtue of his age. Worse, the entire Democratic leadership team are way past their use-by dates.  If the Dems continue with this, it will be RBG all over again.  BTW, I'm still pissed at her for being so selfish, not that it's important now.  Back on topic: the Dems aren't ready to fight the next round with all Silent leadership.  The GOP may just win by default.

Those are the pessimistic possibilities.  There are real problems to be solved.  If Biden is the grandfather type that lets the younger progressives do their thing you might win.  Trump governed by lies.  If in the process of exposing those lies and discrediting the estsablismet and elites, the old values could lose their potency.

The problem is that in LBJ's and Nixon's time, the Democrats took the urban minorities, and lost control to the rural racists.  Thus, the conservative era.  More effort was put into making the elites richer, the working man poorer, the minorities oppressed, and the jobs abroad.  Those seem to be a modern non starter.  It is up to Biden to sell that none of it should be.  It seems possible.  The Republicans will go with the old values.

I thought Bush 43 would be the bad president that would lead into crisis.  Then Trump made his efforts pale.  Do we need someone even worse?

Let's not forget that the Skowronek cycle is in operation. Donald Trump may not have lost in a landslide, but he did lose. He is the definition of a "disjunctive" President, the Last Hurrah for a political phase at or near the end of its run. Of course one can ascribe his failure as President to his eccentric (to put it as sympathetically as possible) style as a leader, but his neoliberal ideology has begun to lose its appeal to younger adults.

To be sure, except for the Presidential election, 2020 was a status-quo election... but when things are not so bad for electoral canvassing, things could get very bleak for the GOP -- especially when the Democrats come out with new, younger candidates for seats now held by rusty old pols.

In foreshadowing the contest for the soul of the Republican Party, two of the freshman congresswomen who won their races made comments on what they represented.  CNN reports…

CNN Wrote:"We really reflect the faces of America," Mace told CNN's Dana Bash on "State of the Union" about the incoming Republican freshman class. "The diversity and the inclusion that we have in the Republican Party. That is our future. And if we don't get on board with recruiting the right people -- minorities, women, veterans, et. cetera, then we're going to lose in the future."

Malliotakis said she believes one of the reasons so many GOP women were motivated to run was, "seeing the Democratic women being elected in 2018 that don't necessarily reflect our values, particularly those who are, you know, self described socialists."

This assumed that domestic spending, the government helping the people, can be called socialist and is not American.  They have to convince people that increasing the division of wealth is the correct direction.  This might make it hard for them to pick up people like minorities, woman and veterans.

(11-29-2020, 02:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Let's not forget that the Skowronek cycle is in operation. Donald Trump may not have lost in a landslide, but he did lose. He is the definition of a "disjunctive" President, the Last Hurrah for a political phase at or near the end of its run. Of course one can ascribe his failure as President to his eccentric (to put it as sympathetically as possible) style as a leader, but his neoliberal ideology has begun to lose its appeal to younger adults.

To be sure, except for the Presidential election, 2020 was a status-quo election... but when things are not so bad for electoral canvassing, things could get very bleak for the GOP -- especially when the Democrats come out with new, younger candidates for seats now held by rusty old pols.

The Skowronek cycle was fulfilled. And it went along with the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction as well (a 20-year cycle and about half of the Skowronek Cycle), which usually indicates the fall of the party in power, and indicated for 120 years the death in office of the president elected close to its occurrence. We'll see how long the Republican red-staters and Reaganomics believers can keep up the great walls they have built to hold back the pressures to their power and status from within and from without. Certainly the war against immigrants is over, and the new Sec. of Homeland Security will see to that.

Trump isn't the last hurrah of anything. Every indication suggests that Biden intends to govern from the Reaganite neoliberal center, from the appointment of DuPont director of communications Michael McCabe to EPA to his appointments of ultrahawks Sergio Aguirre and Nitin Chadda to his foreign policy team.

(11-29-2020, 05:42 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Trump isn't the last hurrah of anything. Every indication suggests that Biden intends to govern from the Reaganite neoliberal center, from the appointment of DuPont director of communications Michael McCabe to EPA to his appointments of ultrahawks Sergio Aguirre and Nitin Chadda to his foreign policy team.

As far as I can tell, McCabe's on his transition board, but not appointed as head of EPA yet. Am I wrong?

Biden's foreign policy team is still taking shape, but it's links to various interests and past policies are shady.
https://prospect.org/world/how-biden-for...-got-rich/

Superior to Trump's team? Easily. Is it what the Left would like? Not likely. The Left doesn't have enough power yet, or maybe ever, in the USA. Will we muddle through, and get better? We'll see. It's a make or break decade. If we don't change enough soon, there will be no second turning awakening.

(11-29-2020, 08:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-28-2020, 11:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-26-2020, 01:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It's over. Trump cannot win.

Not that I think you are wrong, but some internet flame warriors are still projecting that with the next inevitable court victory all will be well on Earth 2.  An example from YouTube..

It is not that I am worried that they will win anything significant, but that by keeping the law suits alive they are building an idea that the court cases have some merit

There are two potential outcomes: both bad.  Outcome #1 makes the obstructionism a permanent political feature, with RW Billionaires funding all sorts of legal and political mayhem. Outcome#2 leads directly to violence.  

Biden is already a lame duck by virtue of his age. Worse, the entire Democratic leadership team are way past their use-by dates.  If the Dems continue with this, it will be RBG all over again.  BTW, I'm still pissed at her for being so selfish, not that it's important now.  Back on topic: the Dems aren't ready to fight the next round with all Silent leadership.  The GOP may just win by default.

I don't know who the younger House leaders are who are at least as progressive and competent at mobilizing action as Pelosi is. Invoking age alone does not describe what is happening, or the skill of the leaders. I don't know a young leader who can run for Pelosi's slot and win a broad mandate to lead the Party or be speaker. AOC will not be elected now, and I don't know if Ro Khanna can do it or is willing. Who else is there? Who will step up? A Gen Xer Democrat is more likely to be a spineless moderate.

McConnell is also a Silent and remains at the Republican helm. So that's no better for them, age wise.

Our government remains at a stalemate, but that is not due to the leadership, but to the voters. They voted for this. It's all on them. Voters today, when they vote for a senator, do not know who they are voting for. This year, they voted for McConnell or for Schumer, and even if the Democrats win two Georgia runoffs, McConnell will still win (though not as handily). 

Only if progressive Democrats win a Senate majority can they make DC and PR a state and thus end the Republican Senate dominance. Only then can they reduce or take down the filibuster and reform the court/add liberals. Until they can do this, thanks to the voters' decision, we are stuck in 1981. Maybe forever. In which case, the USA will not be the world's leader; China will be. The USA may decline or split apart, and there will be no hoped-for second turning. Only continued decline.

(11-29-2020, 09:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The problem is that in LBJ's and Nixon's time, the Democrats took the urban minorities, and lost control to the rural racists.  Thus, the conservative era.  More effort was put into making the elites richer, the working man poorer, the minorities oppressed, and the jobs abroad.  Those seem to be a modern non starter....

A trend was started in that direction. The 1968 election set the tone for much of what followed, but not all. Much more was yet to come. The white South began its switch to the Republican Party in the sixties. States like Kentucky, Tennessee and Missouri reacted not only to the racial strife and civil rights, but to the hippie culture and the peace movement, and voted for Nixon. Dixie voted for Wallace, after having supported Goldwater in the 1964 landslide. But there was a detour. Congress was still strongly Democratic under Nixon, and drastically so in 1975-76 in reaction to Watergate. So the conservatives did not rule yet, and Nixon still was a progressive by today's standards. Then Carter took the solid South for the Democrats in 1976, and congress veered even further Left. But Carter was a moderate and did not get a lot of liberal programs through. Still, the decline of the working class and the rise of the elites had barely begun under Carter. Consumer and environmental laws and programs were still strong under Nixon and Carter. There was still hope.

But the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in July 1981 corresponded exactly with the passage of Reaganomics. That was the decisive turn. In the previous 3 years, the moral majority was on the rise, and the reaction to the counter-culture gained more political power. The tax revolt fueled by California Prop 13 was all the rage. Jonestown added to the national pall and revulsion to alternative lifestyles. Neo-liberalism was enthroned in 1981, not just assumed in the background. So, "More effort was put into making the elites richer, the working man poorer, the minorities oppressed, and the jobs abroad." Reagan was hired specifically to oppose the restraint which the sixties and 70s movements were putting upon the big money interests. The economics stats, charts and graphs we have all seen showed that 1981 was the decisive shift after which the rich got richer and the poorer got the shaft. Inequality grew and the national debt skyrocketed due to the tax cuts. And it is also the date when global warming spikes, a trend which is completely a function of Reaganomics.

Reagan's faux-macho charm hypnotized the nation. The right-wing cult grew around the great communicator's neo-liberal ideology, and since then its adherents feel entitled to rule and are easily mobilized as needed to stop "big government" and "socialism." In essence trickle-down neo-liberal ideology says, "I won't be forced at gunpoint to give my hard-earned tax money to socialist bureaucrats so they can coddle you know who (those other kinds of people) and make them "dependent" on "government". Just let the market operate and the job creaters will lift us up." Around that core of Reaganomics and Saint Ronnie was built the insurgent moral majority's fundamentalism-- especially mobilized around anti-feminism/anti-gay rights/"stop killing babies," militarist patriotism and attachment to American symbols, the gun culture, attachment to fossil fuels, and fear and loathing of immigrants. Thus, the right-wing movements followed in rapid succession: Reagan and Bush 41, Gingrich and the Contract With America, the culture wars over the Courts and the Clintons, Bush 43 neo-fascism, the Tea Party, and Trump Nation-- all staffed by all the same folks. And some of them now falsely claim to be "the forgotten folks," just because they keep voting Republican and then wonder why their industries and jobs are taken away, and they fall under the spell of demagogues like Trump who claim to be their voice.

(11-29-2020, 06:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-29-2020, 08:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-28-2020, 11:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-26-2020, 01:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It's over. Trump cannot win.

Not that I think you are wrong, but some internet flame warriors are still projecting that with the next inevitable court victory all will be well on Earth 2.  An example from YouTube..

It is not that I am worried that they will win anything significant, but that by keeping the law suits alive they are building an idea that the court cases have some merit

There are two potential outcomes: both bad.  Outcome #1 makes the obstructionism a permanent political feature, with RW Billionaires funding all sorts of legal and political mayhem. Outcome#2 leads directly to violence.  

Biden is already a lame duck by virtue of his age. Worse, the entire Democratic leadership team are way past their use-by dates.  If the Dems continue with this, it will be RBG all over again.  BTW, I'm still pissed at her for being so selfish, not that it's important now.  Back on topic: the Dems aren't ready to fight the next round with all Silent leadership.  The GOP may just win by default.

I don't know who the younger House leaders are who are at least as progressive and competent at mobilizing action as Pelosi is. Invoking age alone does not describe what is happening, or the skill of the leaders. I don't know a young leader who can run for Pelosi's slot and win a broad mandate to lead the Party or be speaker. AOC will not be elected now, and I don't know if Ro Khanna can do it or is willing. Who else is there? Who will step up? A Gen Xer Democrat is more likely to be a spineless moderate.

McConnell is also a Silent and remains at the Republican helm. So that's no better for them, age wise.

Our government remains at a stalemate, but that is not due to the leadership, but to the voters. They voted for this. It's all on them. Voters today, when they vote for a senator, do not know who they are voting for. This year, they voted for McConnell or for Schumer, and even if the Democrats win two Georgia runoffs, McConnell will still win (though not as handily). 

Only if progressive Democrats win a Senate majority can they make DC and PR a state and thus end the Republican Senate dominance. Only then can they reduce or take down the filibuster and reform the court/add liberals. Until they can do this, thanks to the voters' decision, we are stuck in 1981. Maybe forever. In which case, the USA will not be the world's leader; China will be. The USA may decline or split apart, and there will be no hoped-for second turning. Only continued decline.

You voted for Biden and the return to the status quo. So, it's all on you and everyone else who voted for him. You also voted to establish China as the new world leader as well. I hope the Democrats are prepared to deal with continued decline and the reality of a national split occurring on its watch so to speak. I think you guys did a wonderful job setting yourselves up for failure. Just so you know, I understand that we're going to take some lumps too.