Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(01-17-2020, 03:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN Senate Article. CNN is hitting the same dilemma I have been mentioning for a bit.  The GOP wants to support the president, or they will not be able to win a Republican primary.  But they do not want to endorse criminal acts, or they will not be able to win a general election.

Couldn't happen to a finer bunch of folks.  It will be amusing to see which way they go.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't can be a tough position for anyone to be in these days. So, how many Democratic Senators are in the same position these days? So, what happens if Biden and his kid appear to be guilty of being directly involved with corruption? Yes, it will be interesting to see which way they decide to go this time.

(01-18-2020, 11:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]The KKK and Neo Nazi's aren't my cup of tea either. I don't think there is a more powerful form/sign of renouncement than execution. I view both as having their own unique identities and agenda's which separate them from America these days. So, I would not invite either of them into the American tent so to speak.

Good Enough.  Of course, your rejection of the KKK & Neo Nazi goes about as far as my rejection of the legislators from the bench.  Any other so called liberals around here want to reject changing cultures when they are not ready and willing or legislation from the bench as a means of changing the constitution when there is no super majority advocating an amendment?

Classic-Xer Wrote:Damned if you do, damned if you don't can be a tough position for anyone to be in these days. So, how many Democratic Senators are in the same position these days? So, what happens if Biden and his kid appear to be guilty of being directly involved with corruption? Yes, it will be interesting to see which way they decide to go this time.

The conservatives do cling to their conspiracy theories.  

I don't care to much for the Establishment Democrat Joe Biden.  If they do find something wrong that his son Hunter did other than use his name to collect a job and money, I would not mind seeing Biden's chances diminished.  Even then, many of Trump's kin wound up with jobs in the Trump administration.  I wouldn't mind seeing a law against children of politicians cashing in on their family name, so long as there is no partisanship shown in writing the law.  Is it proper to make being a relative a crime?  If the conservatives really objected, they would propose such a law?  Can you convict Hunter Biden retroactively with such a law without hitting the Trump relatives?  Would you have tried to block RFK from being in JFK's cabinet?

But the Republicans have been trying to dig deep for years and have not come up with anything but daydreams and manufactured stuff to support it.  If the Ukrainians had the slightest thought that there was anything to the conspiracy theory, I suspect they wouldn't have been so firm in rejecting planting of the rumor.  By now, the conspiracy theory has almost no value except to try to distract from Trumps from their more obvious guilt.  The campaign finance laws and those against withholding the funds were on the books when the deeds were done.

Personally, I think Gulianni's attempts to make energy deals while he was in Ukraine was part of the 'drug deal'.  It was one way to make money change hands.  Can't prove it though.

It is curious that the 'drug deal' was for an announcement of an investigation into the Bidens, not for an actual investigation with hints passed on as to what they might expect to find. If there were anything real to find, if Trump had anything or believed there was corruption to find, however vague, on the Bidens, it should have shown up in the impeachment investigation that followed. Nothing.

Also, the Ukrainian president was an anti corruption figure. He was the last person who would go along with anything as corrupt as what Trump was asking. He dragged his feet at a request that would cost him nothing, resulting finally in much trouble for Trump. Obviously, Trump had not done his homework, had not correctly figured out how the Ukrainian administration would respond to a corrupt request. The idea of honesty was just incomprehensible to Trump. If anyone deserves a medal for doing the right thing in spite of obvious pressure to do otherwise, it is the Ukrainian president.

(01-19-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-17-2020, 03:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN Senate Article. CNN is hitting the same dilemma I have been mentioning for a bit.  The GOP wants to support the president, or they will not be able to win a Republican primary.  But they do not want to endorse criminal acts, or they will not be able to win a general election.

Couldn't happen to a finer bunch of folks.  It will be amusing to see which way they go.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't can be a tough position for anyone to be in these days. So, how many Democratic Senators are in the same position these days? So, what happens if Biden and his kid appear to be guilty of being directly involved with corruption? Yes, it will be interesting to see which way they decide to go this time.

In such an event, just let the legal process take its course. Trump did what he did for political advantage in an upcoming political campaign and for no other reason. Evidence of Biden family corruption is very weak. You can trust that FoX Newspeak Channel would have been harping on it for months.

(01-17-2020, 05:04 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-17-2020, 04:17 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-17-2020, 03:11 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]-- i heard Bernie's chartering a jet 2 taking him 2 his campaign events during the impeachment farce

Don't tell Greta Thunberg, whatever you do.    

-- l personally think he should send Nina & the Squad out as surrogates. Then should any of that sexist bs come up Nina /Squad can say, "look if that were the least bit true l wouldn't be standing here now. Next!" hopefully that will put that bs 2 rest

No, Greta is a hyper-Green, so flying around in a chartered jet is guaranteed to piss-off that crowd big time -- surrogates not to the contrary,  The hardcore don't bend on anything.

(01-19-2020, 03:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I think Gulianni's attempts to make energy deals while he was in Ukraine was part of the 'drug deal'.  It was one way to make money change hands.  Can't prove it though.

In view of the contempt that Americans across the spectra of ethnicity, social class, and political orientation have for drug trafficking, I can hardly imagine a more unfortunate metaphor than "drug deal".    

Quote:It is curious that the  'drug deal' was for an announcement of an investigation into the Bidens, not for an actual investigation with hints passed on as to what they might expect to find.  If there were anything real to find, if Trump had anything or believed there was corruption to find, however vague, on the Bidens, it should have shown up in the impeachment investigation that followed.  Nothing.

 
Some insider disliked it. Thus the comparison to a crime that any idiot could do -- really, the strongest correlations to drug dealers are to low intelligence and low attainment in education.   

Quote:Also, the Ukrainian president was an anti corruption figure.  He was the last person who would go along with anything as corrupt as what Trump was asking.  He dragged his feet at a request that would cost him nothing, resulting finally in much trouble for Trump.  Obviously, Trump had not done his homework, had not correctly figured out how the Ukrainian administration would respond to a corrupt request.  The idea of honesty was just incomprehensible to Trump.  If anyone deserves a medal for doing the right thing in spite of obvious pressure to do otherwise, it is the Ukrainian president.

Considering that Ukraine has had problems with both image and reality since the country seceded from the Soviet Union, such might be shocking to someone who expects corrupt dealings as a norm. This is a profile in courage by the President of Ukraine, who is in perhaps the worst geopolitical situation that a country of such population could be in. Zelensky knows exactly what Trump, who would sell out any ally to Putin, could do.

(01-19-2020, 05:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-17-2020, 03:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN Senate Article. CNN is hitting the same dilemma I have been mentioning for a bit.  The GOP wants to support the president, or they will not be able to win a Republican primary.  But they do not want to endorse criminal acts, or they will not be able to win a general election.

Couldn't happen to a finer bunch of folks.  It will be amusing to see which way they go.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't can be a tough position for anyone to be in these days. So, how many Democratic Senators are in the same position these days? So, what happens if Biden and his kid appear to be guilty of being directly involved with corruption? Yes, it will be interesting to see which way they decide to go this time.

In such an event, just let the legal process take its course. Trump did what he did for political advantage in an upcoming political campaign and for no other reason. Evidence of Biden family corruption is very weak. You can trust that FoX Newspeak Channel would have been harping on it for months.

Trump may have done what he did to take away any political advantage that Biden and the liberal media/press have left these days. Yes, Fox News and it's group of private investigators have been busy investigating and digging up all kinds of incriminating evidence these days. Lets see, there is a tape of Biden explaining how he used his political influence to remove a Ukrainian investigator looking into corruption involving the company that Biden's kid was working for at the time.

(01-19-2020, 03:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The conservatives do cling to their conspiracy theories.  

I don't care to much for the Establishment Democrat Joe Biden.  If they do find something wrong that his son Hunter did other than use his name to collect a job and money, I would not mind seeing Biden's chances diminished.  Even then, many of Trump's kin wound up with jobs in the Trump administration.  I wouldn't mind seeing a law against children of politicians cashing in on their family name, so long as there is no partisanship shown in writing the law.  Is it proper to make being a relative a crime?  If the conservatives really objected, they would propose such a law?  Can you convict Hunter Biden retroactively with such a law without hitting the Trump relatives?  Would you have tried to block RFK from being in JFK's cabinet?

But the Republicans have been trying to dig deep for years and have not come up with anything but daydreams and manufactured stuff to support it.  If the Ukrainians had the slightest thought that there was anything to the conspiracy theory, I suspect they wouldn't have been so firm in rejecting planting of the rumor.  By now, the conspiracy theory has almost no value except to try to distract from Trumps from their more obvious guilt.  The campaign finance laws and those against withholding the funds were on the books when the deeds were done.

Personally, I think Gulianni's attempts to make energy deals while he was in Ukraine was part of the 'drug deal'.  It was one way to make money change hands.  Can't prove it though.

It is curious that the  'drug deal' was for an announcement of an investigation into the Bidens, not for an actual investigation with hints passed on as to what they might expect to find.  If there were anything real to find, if Trump had anything or believed there was corruption to find, however vague, on the Bidens, it should have shown up in the impeachment investigation that followed.  Nothing.  

Also, the Ukrainian president was an anti corruption figure.  He was the last person who would go along with anything as corrupt as what Trump was asking.  He dragged his feet at a request that would cost him nothing, resulting finally in much trouble for Trump.  Obviously, Trump had not done his homework, had not correctly figured out how the Ukrainian administration would respond to a corrupt request.  The idea of honesty was just incomprehensible to Trump.  If anyone deserves a medal for doing the right thing in spite of obvious pressure to do otherwise, it is the Ukrainian president.

Did you see any sign of his defense during the House impeachment, did you see any sign of Republican involvement in the proceedings either or did you only see liberal prosecution/persecution of him and personal disagreements relating to him and his foreign policy pertaining to Ukraine? Trump didn't deny what was said to the President of Ukraine and he made it known to everyone that there seems to be an obvious double standard in place to protect so called liberals that you and many others here are now directly associated with these days.


Me, conspiracy theory ain't my cup of tea either. I never bought into any of your conspiracy theories relating to Bush II or the invasion of Iraq back in the day, I didn't buy into the conspiracy relating to Trumps direct involvement with Russian collusion or buy into the liberal speculation/ hype relating to Mueller's investigation and so forth. To be fair, I didn't buy into the conspiracy that Obama was born else where and he wasn't an American born citizen either.  Also, I haven't bought into the liberal notion of themselves and their new wave of minority voters eventually politically over powering Americans and taking over and controlling everything either. Are you sure that you and other so called liberals aren't as into using/ advancing conspiracy theories or as susceptible to believing conspiracy theories as other groups of social conservatives are these days. BTW, the Ukrainian President was viewed as weak on corruption or corrupt by those who supported/ voted for the current President of Ukraine these days.

(01-19-2020, 11:51 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Considering that Ukraine has had problems with both image and reality since the country seceded from the Soviet Union, such might be shocking to someone who expects corrupt dealings as a norm. This is a profile in courage by the President of Ukraine, who is in perhaps the worst geopolitical situation that a country of such population could be in. Zelensky knows exactly what Trump, who would sell out any ally to Putin, could do.

Why did Obama play it safe and display a willingness to remain idle and sell out a potential ally as Putin sought to reclaim a portion of what was previously known as a crucial region associated with the old Russian Empire that existed prior to it's communist overthrow during the first world war. You do realize that Putin is more or less a de facto version of the Russian Czar who is now in charge of modern day Russia.

(01-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 11:51 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Considering that Ukraine has had problems with both image and reality since the country seceded from the Soviet Union, such might be shocking to someone who expects corrupt dealings as a norm. This is a profile in courage by the President of Ukraine, who is in perhaps the worst geopolitical situation that a country of such population could be in. Zelensky knows exactly what Trump, who would sell out any ally to Putin, could do.

Why did Obama play it safe and display a willingness to remain idle and sell out a potential ally as Putin sought to reclaim a portion of what was previously known as a crucial region associated with the old Russian Empire that existed prior to it's communist overthrow during the first world war. You do realize that Putin is more or less a de facto version of the Russian Czar who is now in charge  of modern day Russia.

Fait accompli. Putin got what he wanted, so far piecemeal, and nobody could stop him or(more importantly) reverse his achievement. It is how the Soviet Union annexed the Baltic republics in 1940 -- press for treaties of mutual aid, move some troops about, blackmail the politicians while making resistance possible, and create loud groups of supporters who seek to join the Soviet Union as a consequence of a rigged election. See also how Hitler annexed Austria and dismembered Czechoslovakia.

(01-20-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Did you see any sign of his defense during the House impeachment, did you see any sign of Republican involvement in the proceedings either or did you only see liberal prosecution/persecution of him and personal disagreements relating to him and his foreign policy pertaining to Ukraine? Trump didn't deny what was said to the President of Ukraine and he made it known to everyone that there seems to be an obvious  double standard in place to protect so called liberals  that you and many others here are now directly associated with these days.  


Me, conspiracy theory ain't my cup of tea either. I never bought into any of your conspiracy theories relating to Bush II or the invasion of Iraq back in the day, I didn't buy into the conspiracy relating to Trumps direct involvement with Russian collusion or buy into the liberal speculation/ hype relating to Mueller's investigation and so forth. To be fair, I didn't buy into the conspiracy that Obama was born else where and he wasn't an American born citizen either.  Also, I haven't bought into the liberal notion of themselves and their new wave of minority voters eventually politically over powering Americans and taking over and controlling everything either. Are you sure that you and other so called liberals aren't as into using/ advancing conspiracy theories or as susceptible to believing conspiracy theories as other groups of social conservatives are these days. BTW, the Ukrainian President was viewed as weak on corruption or corrupt by those who supported/ voted for  the current President of Ukraine these days.

I am into theories of history. Turnings. Civilizations. Ages. But then, aren’t we all on this site?

I did see a sort of Republican involvement in the House inquiry. It was mostly to distract from the main question and slow things down. It wasn’t to the point or effective. More pertinent, I saw the short form of the supposed defense. Trump did nothing impeachable? We want foreign states interfering with elections? We want the White Hose not responding to subpoenas for people or documents? I don’t care if these are crimes or not, I don’t want them.

If there is a comparable standard, can you name a few times the Democrats sought out foreign intervention in US elections?

I do believe in that the Bush 43 administration lied to justify their war in Iraq. They just changed their story to fit the facts too many times. They had too many oil and military people in the administration. I am aware of partisan leanings as to what conspiracy theories one is drawn to believe, but that one isn’t close.

The 17 US intelligence agencies to 0 puts the Russian Collusion thing in the same category.

You don’t believe Trump yelled out in a room full of media to the effect of, “Hey Russia, if you are listening, please…”?

The information behind Obama being born in Kenya was really weak. Good choice to ignore that one. I’d like to say I made up my mind when a researcher found a birth announcement in a local Hawaii newspaper, but I had made up my mind long before.

You might try looking at the evidence? If evidence exists, it doesn’t fit the conspiracy theory category anymore?

I do suspect a new progressive era is coming. Demographics. They need to address problems at intervals. The cyclical rhythm of politics as major parties stick with what got them in power long after they reach a point of diminishing return. The need to react to changing technology. The bad presidents, likely to look really bad in the history books, discrediting the old ideals. I am too dubious about the 2020 candidates and the likely outcomes not to get my hopes too far up for the near future. It will come. If you are into cyclical history, you have to know that it will come. I just am not all sure when.

On one of my other web sites, I am role playing a Star Trek character. She is currently raising the Prime Directive. I find myself echoing some of the stuff I say here. The Prime Directive warns against trying to change cultures before they are ready to change. The high technology of the Star Trek universe makes it kinda dumb not to adopt to the new science, even if accepting it does force a change. There is a kind of balance to walk, between adapting to the available science, and wanting to remain true to yourself. The balance is in offering the benefits of the new, while respecting the compulsion to keep what is established. Progressive. Conservative. It is very possible to err in either direction. The problem is that America is diverse enough that some areas have a greater population density, have a greater need to change. That is a lot of the friction.

(01-19-2020, 11:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Trump may have done what he did to take away any political advantage that Biden and the liberal media/press have left these days. Yes, Fox News and it's group of private investigators have been busy investigating and digging up all kinds of incriminating evidence these days. Lets see, there is a tape of Biden explaining how he used his political influence to remove a Ukrainian investigator looking into corruption involving the company that Biden's kid was working for at the time.

That's both wrong and disproven several times over. Where do you get this stuff? Yes, Biden worked to remove Prosecutor General Shokin. So did any number or Republican Senators -- because he was corrupt to the core.

Saying 'up' is 'down' over and over again doesn't make it true, even though many people may believe it.

(01-20-2020, 12:39 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 11:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Trump may have done what he did to take away any political advantage that Biden and the liberal media/press have left these days. Yes, Fox News and it's group of private investigators have been busy investigating and digging up all kinds of incriminating evidence these days. Lets see, there is a tape of Biden explaining how he used his political influence to remove a Ukrainian investigator looking into corruption involving the company that Biden's kid was working for at the time.

That's both wrong and disproven several times over.  Where do you get this stuff?  Yes, Biden worked to remove Prosecutor General Shokin.  So did any number or Republican Senators -- because he was corrupt to the core.  

Saying 'up' is 'down' over and over again doesn't make it true, even though many people may believe it.

Several "alternative" media offer the conservative alternate reality.  Fox.  Breitbart.  Etc...  If that is the style of your primary source, you end up like Classic.  There are styles of telling lies that many have to learn and recognize.  There are tricks to fact checking quickly that people need these days.  Unfortunately, some find it convenient to live in the cocoon.  Trump may have over used lies enough that people will learn.  I suspect this learning will be part of the upcoming culture change, self defense if you will.  Lying has just be overdone recently.  Eventually those that have been lied to will wake up.

But I may be optimistic.  Conservatives have reasons for keeping the lies.  I recently bumped into a web page that talked about baby killing and gun theft.  The title asked the pertinent question.  Who do you vote for if you cannot stomach Trump?  The Establishment Republicans are too tightly tied to the elites, and thus have already been rejected by the Tea Party.  The liberal one size fits all ethics is unthinkable for some many.  It takes the rare bird like Palin or Trump to lie or believe enough to spin the cocoon.

I might suggest an almost unheard of idea of compromising, but I fear a lot of people would find it hard.

Compromise works only when both sides see the conflict as complete victory and complete defeat, and when both sides have some common interests. Punitive attitudes toward the other side as the Enemy deserving only of ruin ensure that there will be no compromise.

(01-20-2020, 01:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Several "alternative" media offer the conservative alternate reality.  Fox.  Breitbart.  Etc...  If that is the style of your primary source, you end up like Classic.  There are styles of telling lies that many have to learn and recognize.  There are tricks to fact checking quickly that people need these days.  Unfortunately, some find it convenient to live in the cocoon.  Trump may have over used lies enough that people will learn.  I suspect this learning will be part of the upcoming culture change, self defense if you will.  Lying has just be overdone recently.  Eventually those that have been lied to will wake up.

I would love to believe that honesty and forthright behavior will win out, but there is no guarantee that's true.   I do believe that it is true in the long run, but we know what John Maynard Keynes had to say about that.  In their book Unmaking the Presidency: Donald Trump's War on the World's Most Powerful Office, Susan Hennessey and Benjamin Wittes make the argument that the Presidency is subject to change, has been changed in the past by other Presidents, and Donald Trump may be doing it again.  Their argument seems to be strong if not overwhelming.  

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:But I may be optimistic.  Conservatives have reasons for keeping the lies.  I recently bumped into a web page that talked about baby killing and gun theft.  The title asked the pertinent question.  Who do you vote for if you cannot stomach Trump?  The Establishment Republicans are too tightly tied to the elites, and thus have already been rejected by the Tea Party.  The liberal one size fits all ethics is unthinkable for some many.  It takes the rare bird like Palin or Trump to lie or believe enough to spin the cocoon.

There is real anger out in the world, and some of it is justified, if a bit overblown.  The real problem with anger-driven politics: it lacks rationale.  Thinking and emotion are not great bedfellows.

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:I might suggest an almost unheard of idea of compromising, but I fear a lot of people would find it hard.

I don't think compromise is even possible today.  We've arrived at a point where A needs to win and B needs to be crushed.  Assign values to A and B as you will.

(01-20-2020, 12:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I am into theories of history.  Turnings.  Civilizations.  Ages.  But then, aren’t we all on this site?

I did see a sort of Republican involvement in the House inquiry.  It was mostly to distract from the main question and slow things down.  It wasn’t to the point or effective.  More pertinent, I saw the short form of the supposed defense.   Trump did nothing impeachable?  We want foreign states interfering with elections?  We want the White Hose not responding to subpoenas for people or documents?  I don’t care if these are crimes or not, I don’t want them.

If there is a comparable standard, can you name a few times the Democrats sought out foreign intervention in US elections?

I do believe in that the Bush 43 administration lied to justify their war in Iraq.  They just changed their story to fit the facts too many times.  They had too many oil and military people in the administration.  I am aware of partisan leanings as to what conspiracy theories one is drawn to believe, but that one isn’t close.

The 17 US intelligence agencies to 0 puts the Russian Collusion thing in the same category.

You don’t believe Trump yelled out in a room full of media to the effect of, “Hey Russia, if you are listening, please…”?

The information behind Obama being born in Kenya was really weak.  Good choice to ignore that one.  I’d like to say I made up my mind when a researcher found a birth announcement in a local Hawaii newspaper, but I had made up my mind long before.  

You might try looking at the evidence?  If evidence exists, it doesn’t fit the conspiracy theory category anymore?

I do suspect a new progressive era is coming.  Demographics.  They need to address problems at intervals.  The cyclical rhythm of politics as major parties stick with what got them in power long after they reach a point of diminishing return.  The need to react to changing technology.  The bad presidents, likely to look really bad in the history books, discrediting the old ideals.  I am too dubious about the 2020 candidates and the likely outcomes not to get my hopes too far up for the near future.  It will come.  If you are into cyclical history, you have to know that it will come.  I just am not all sure when.

On one of my other web sites, I am role playing a Star Trek character.  She is currently raising the Prime Directive.  I find myself echoing some of the stuff I say here.  The Prime Directive warns against trying to change cultures before they are ready to change.  The high technology of the Star Trek universe makes it kinda dumb not to adopt to the new science, even if accepting it does force a change.  There is a kind of balance to walk, between adapting to the available science, and wanting to remain true to yourself.  The balance is in offering the benefits of the new, while respecting the compulsion to keep what is established.  Progressive.  Conservative.  It is very possible to err in either direction.  The problem is that America is diverse enough that some areas have a greater population density, have a greater need to change.  That is a lot of the friction.

Cyclical theory ain't my cup of tea or viewed as being as high in priority compared to you either. Me, I figured Obama had already proven his citizenship prior to entering the Democratic primary in 2008 against Hilary and therefore him proving it wasn't viewed as necessary. So, I didn't pay much attention to the Birther movement thingy back then. I was often accused of supporting it and believing it too by a bunch of foolish liberals back them. I noticed that you were busy blaming our troops for doing the nasty stuff that Al Qaeda and the Iranian backed militia's were largely guilty of doing back then as well. I don't know who put all that liberal crap in your head back then, I assume that the progressive era of old has to basically collapse and come to an end before a new progressive era begins. Of coarse, the blue boomers would have to stop clinging to the old progressive system and long held beliefs relating to it for that to have a chance to come to fruition these days.

(01-20-2020, 03:25 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 11:51 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Considering that Ukraine has had problems with both image and reality since the country seceded from the Soviet Union, such might be shocking to someone who expects corrupt dealings as a norm. This is a profile in courage by the President of Ukraine, who is in perhaps the worst geopolitical situation that a country of such population could be in. Zelensky knows exactly what Trump, who would sell out any ally to Putin, could do.

Why did Obama play it safe and display a willingness to remain idle and sell out a potential ally as Putin sought to reclaim a portion of what was previously known as a crucial region associated with the old Russian Empire that existed prior to it's communist overthrow during the first world war. You do realize that Putin is more or less a de facto version of the Russian Czar who is now in charge  of modern day Russia.

Fait accompli. Putin got what he wanted, so far piecemeal, and nobody could stop him or(more importantly) reverse his achievement. It is how the Soviet Union annexed the Baltic republics in 1940 -- press for treaties of mutual aid, move some troops about, blackmail the politicians while making resistance possible, and create loud groups of supporters who seek to join the Soviet Union as a consequence of a rigged election. See also how Hitler annexed Austria and dismembered Czechoslovakia.

So, you are familiar with history and familiar with the deals and moves that were made by the fascist and communist states prior to World War II. So, where was liberal America, what was liberal America doing and still believing in/ clinging to while that stuff was happening/going on within the old world at the time prior to America becoming directly involved in World War II.

(01-20-2020, 07:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 03:25 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 11:51 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Considering that Ukraine has had problems with both image and reality since the country seceded from the Soviet Union, such might be shocking to someone who expects corrupt dealings as a norm. This is a profile in courage by the President of Ukraine, who is in perhaps the worst geopolitical situation that a country of such population could be in. Zelensky knows exactly what Trump, who would sell out any ally to Putin, could do.

Why did Obama play it safe and display a willingness to remain idle and sell out a potential ally as Putin sought to reclaim a portion of what was previously known as a crucial region associated with the old Russian Empire that existed prior to it's communist overthrow during the first world war. You do realize that Putin is more or less a de facto version of the Russian Czar who is now in charge  of modern day Russia.

Fait accompli. Putin got what he wanted, so far piecemeal, and nobody could stop him or(more importantly) reverse his achievement. It is how the Soviet Union annexed the Baltic republics in 1940 -- press for treaties of mutual aid, move some troops about, blackmail the politicians while making resistance possible, and create loud groups of supporters who seek to join the Soviet Union as a consequence of a rigged election. See also how Hitler annexed Austria and dismembered Czechoslovakia.

So, you are familiar with history and familiar with the deals and moves that were made by the fascist and communist states prior to World War II. So, where was liberal America, what was liberal America doing and still believing in/ clinging to while that stuff was happening/going on within the old world at the time prior to America becoming directly involved in World War II.

America was anti-war and didn't want to get involved. One world war was already enough.

(01-20-2020, 07:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 12:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I am into theories of history.  Turnings.  Civilizations.  Ages.  But then, aren’t we all on this site?

I did see a sort of Republican involvement in the House inquiry.  It was mostly to distract from the main question and slow things down.  It wasn’t to the point or effective.  More pertinent, I saw the short form of the supposed defense.   Trump did nothing impeachable?  We want foreign states interfering with elections?  We want the White Hose not responding to subpoenas for people or documents?  I don’t care if these are crimes or not, I don’t want them.

If there is a comparable standard, can you name a few times the Democrats sought out foreign intervention in US elections?

I do believe in that the Bush 43 administration lied to justify their war in Iraq.  They just changed their story to fit the facts too many times.  They had too many oil and military people in the administration.  I am aware of partisan leanings as to what conspiracy theories one is drawn to believe, but that one isn’t close.

The 17 US intelligence agencies to 0 puts the Russian Collusion thing in the same category.

You don’t believe Trump yelled out in a room full of media to the effect of, “Hey Russia, if you are listening, please…”?

The information behind Obama being born in Kenya was really weak.  Good choice to ignore that one.  I’d like to say I made up my mind when a researcher found a birth announcement in a local Hawaii newspaper, but I had made up my mind long before.  

You might try looking at the evidence?  If evidence exists, it doesn’t fit the conspiracy theory category anymore?

I do suspect a new progressive era is coming.  Demographics.  They need to address problems at intervals.  The cyclical rhythm of politics as major parties stick with what got them in power long after they reach a point of diminishing return.  The need to react to changing technology.  The bad presidents, likely to look really bad in the history books, discrediting the old ideals.  I am too dubious about the 2020 candidates and the likely outcomes not to get my hopes too far up for the near future.  It will come.  If you are into cyclical history, you have to know that it will come.  I just am not all sure when.

On one of my other web sites, I am role playing a Star Trek character.  She is currently raising the Prime Directive.  I find myself echoing some of the stuff I say here.  The Prime Directive warns against trying to change cultures before they are ready to change.  The high technology of the Star Trek universe makes it kinda dumb not to adopt to the new science, even if accepting it does force a change.  There is a kind of balance to walk, between adapting to the available science, and wanting to remain true to yourself.  The balance is in offering the benefits of the new, while respecting the compulsion to keep what is established.  Progressive.  Conservative.  It is very possible to err in either direction.  The problem is that America is diverse enough that some areas have a greater population density, have a greater need to change.  That is a lot of the friction.

Cyclical theory ain't my cup of tea or viewed as being as high in priority compared to you either.  Me, I figured Obama had already proven his citizenship prior to entering the Democratic primary in 2008 against Hilary and therefore him proving it wasn't viewed as necessary. So, I didn't pay much attention to the Birther movement thingy back then. I was often accused of supporting it and believing it too by a bunch of foolish liberals back them. I noticed that you were busy blaming  our troops for doing the nasty stuff that Al Qaeda and the Iranian backed militia's  were largely guilty of  doing back then as well. I don't know who put all that liberal crap in your head back then, I assume that the progressive era of old has to basically collapse  and come to an end before a new progressive era begins. Of coarse, the blue boomers would have to stop clinging to the old progressive system and long held beliefs relating to it for that to have a chance to come to fruition these days.

Cyclical theory is my cup of tea. Of course, astrology is the queen of the science of cycles. It can be denied but never goes away.

I'm glad you weren't swept up in the birther movement. There are a lot of conspiracy theories swirling around that attract people both on the right and the left. I think they are all pretty much nonsense. You have to do some research into the actual facts to prove this for yourself, so I did. I believed in some of them, but now I don't. The 9-11 "truth" theory that it was an inside job engineered by Bush is one of these false theories.

I don't know what you mean by liberals blaming our troops for what Al Qaeda and Iranian militias were doing.

The previous progressive era in which blue boomers (and blue silents) were involved certainly collapsed long ago, basically in 1980 with the Reagan takeover. So there's nothing for the blue boomers today to cling to. They seem many of them to have left the fold and joined the Trump movement to make America great again. Those are the old beliefs that have to be left behind, and the new progressive era is already rising, among blue millennials and blues and greens of the other generations who kept the faith and the emerging Gen Zers too.

But without you conservatives, we liberals would have less stimulus to preach and write and argue and research and campaign and get on the ball. Where would we be without you guys to challenge us? It's more interesting to discuss things with people who disagree, and to try to portray the other side from you and correct your errors as we see them. So in that sense, we are indebted to you guys and to Trump and the near-fascist Republicans of today for getting us off our duffs.

(01-20-2020, 11:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]America was anti-war and didn't want to get involved. One world war was already enough.

The USA was mostly isolationists for the bulk of the inter war period, especially early.  If you want to get a feeling for how that changed, read the entire "Four Freedoms" speech by FDR, also known as the 1941 State of the Union address, delivered almost a year before Pearl Harbor.  The first part of the speech, before he goes into the Four Freedoms at the end, has much to do with how America had to be prepared to meet Fascism by force.

(First you give the bitter reality of the situation. In the end you give the noble ideas. Only the latter were supposed to be permanent.)

If America was a little too ready to implement the Domino Theory after the war, the Four Freedoms speech is to a great degree how the Domino Theory got started.  (Chuchill's Iron Curtain speech gets the other nod.)  You have to be ready to stop aggression by autocratic powers dead.  You can't let them get started.

They were arguably a little too enthusiastic.

(01-20-2020, 07:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 03:25 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 11:51 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Considering that Ukraine has had problems with both image and reality since the country seceded from the Soviet Union, such might be shocking to someone who expects corrupt dealings as a norm. This is a profile in courage by the President of Ukraine, who is in perhaps the worst geopolitical situation that a country of such population could be in. Zelensky knows exactly what Trump, who would sell out any ally to Putin, could do.

Why did Obama play it safe and display a willingness to remain idle and sell out a potential ally as Putin sought to reclaim a portion of what was previously known as a crucial region associated with the old Russian Empire that existed prior to it's communist overthrow during the first world war. You do realize that Putin is more or less a de facto version of the Russian Czar who is now in charge  of modern day Russia.

Fait accompli. Putin got what he wanted, so far piecemeal, and nobody could stop him or(more importantly) reverse his achievement. It is how the Soviet Union annexed the Baltic republics in 1940 -- press for treaties of mutual aid, move some troops about, blackmail the politicians while making resistance possible, and create loud groups of supporters who seek to join the Soviet Union as a consequence of a rigged election. See also how Hitler annexed Austria and dismembered Czechoslovakia.

So, you are familiar with history and familiar with the deals and moves that were made by the fascist and communist states prior to World War II. So, where was liberal America, what was liberal America doing and still believing in/ clinging to while that stuff was happening/going on within the old world at the time prior to America becoming directly involved in World War II.

Most Americans may have hated and dreaded war, but as time passed one after another went from seeing the Hitler gang going from simply odious to menacing changed American attitudes. Senator Arthur Vandenburg may be a prime example; he went from being an isolationist to a hawk at some point. Consider his ethnic origin (Dutch) and that Michigan has a large Polish-American population...  both are good cause to hate Hitler. Figure that someone like Governor Thomas E. Dewey, a conservative Republican from New York, may have gone from isolationism to seeing nothing wrong with the Hitler gang that "Old Sparky"  couldn't solve as it did with Jewish-American gangsters in Murder, Incorporated. Figure that a large Jewish population in New York State could impress much the same upon Gentiles like Dewey. Contrary to the myth of antisemites that Jews tolerate their own rogues, observant and "cultural" Jews have no willingness to excuse Jewish rogues such as Julius ("Nicky") Arnstein, Arnold Rothstein, or Lepke Buchalter who are held up as models of what not to be as Jews. That is little different from the attitudes that German-Americans had about the most infamous German-Americans of the 1930's -- John Dillinger and (kidnapper and murderer of the Lindbergh baby) Bruno Hauptman. 

By December 1941 most Americans had cause to hate Hitler, whose Nazi Party was already the worst criminal syndicate in inhuman history. On December 10, 1941 Adolf Hitler had his Reichstag stooges vote to approve a declaration of war against the United States. From that point on all but a few Americans saw only one solution to Nazi gangsterism.