Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(07-17-2020, 06:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 10:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

Honoring the S&H theory, I don’t have to wonder about how it is going to turn out.  The new values have prevailed during the heart of the crisis, and the old rejected with emphasis.  Judging by how the virus behaves and the people have supported equality against the violent racist cops, there is nothing I see that suggest it will be different this time.

Again, before the awakening both parties had conservative and progressive wings, but identified with the old Civil War alignments.  After LBJ and Nixon, that shifted, with the Democrats going more fully progressive and the Republicans picking up the racist element.  The parties are not what they were at the time of Lincoln.  If you don’t know your history, you come up with all sorts of weird ideas.

Did the new values prevail over the old values during The Great Depression or World War II? Nope, the parties aren't the same as they were at the time of Lincoln. The Whigs (the party that represented the status quo at the time) were politically annihilated and absorbed by the dominant parties. I think Nixon courted the growing population of non union working class voters associated with the new South myself. You can stick with your Northeastern  liberal  views but I doubt its going to help you at this point.

My favorite comparison of elections. Obama never did well in the High Plains or Mormon Country, but otherwise his electoral wins are closer to those of Eisenhower (a very good President, by the way) in many ways similar to Obama in temperament and ability. That the political parties, at least in electing a President, were about opposite for Ike and Obama itself suggests uncanny similarities despite huge differences in curricula vitae. Most obviously (from the generational standpoint) they are from Reactive generations. Both ran scandal-free administrations, and both are chilly rationalists. Both did well among well-educated voters, but not so well where there are large numbers of under-educated white voters. 

Except perhaps for demography (migration, growth of minority groups), the cultures -- including state cultures -- rarely change that much even over sixty years. Technology can change, but that seems one of the most recessive realities of politics. Economic change is more likely to intensify feelings than to change them. Attitudes toward formal education don't change. Partisan coalitions are more likely to change. 

Quote:The definitive moderate Republican may have been Dwight Eisenhower, and I have heard plenty of Democrats praise the Eisenhower Presidency. He went along with Supreme Court rulings that outlawed segregationist practices, stayed clear of the McCarthy bandwagon, and let McCarthy implode.


 
gray -- did not vote in 1952 or 1956
white -- Eisenhower twice, Obama twice
deep blue -- Republican all four elections
light blue -- Republican all but 2012 (I assume that greater Omaha went for Ike twice)
light green -- Eisenhower once, Stevenson once, Obama never
dark green -- Stevenson twice, Obama never
pink -- Stevenson twice, Obama once 

No state voted Democratic all four times, so no state is in deep red. 

So Eisenhower was decidedly conservative on the economic issues of the time and Obama is relatively liberal. I can say this: I would be more comfortable with a winning coalition that elects Eisenhower or Obama than about any other coalition. Maybe it is the combination of chilly rationalism, acceptance of expertise of people with more specific knowledge on a particular concern of public policy,  rejection of populism, respect for protocol and legal precedent, and overall integrity. 

If I had to choose between a liberal version of Trump and a conservative version of Obama, then I would go for the conservative version of Obama... any day. Partisan affiliation is never enough, and it is no cover for incompetence, corruption, or extremism.

(07-18-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I thought that I've made it very, very clear to you and every other liberal here, that I place no value on liberal groups like Antifa that are already busy waging war with today's American union. You go right  ahead and side with them and whoever is funding them  and we'll see how long you're able  survive here.

I view Antifa as counter protesting the KKK and Neo Nazi.  They never made war against the American union.  That is a red willful ignorance straw man.  It shows how you let your belief in your straw man prevent you from knowing what liberals really are motivated by, what is really going on.

That whole scene seems 3T now.  With Black Lives Matter becoming a major scene in the 4T, the KKK, Neo Nazi and Antifa are being overwhelmed.  I wouldn't doubt some of Antifa's people are marching with BLM, but their sole purpose isn't really there anymore.  They are pretty irrelevant at least for the moment with the vanishing of their primary opposition.

But some reds are still treating them like some big deal threat, even if they have not shown up lately.

(07-18-2020, 03:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-17-2020, 10:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ] Minnesota was not Wild West, and the good citizens of Northfield, Minnesota showed the James-Younger gang practically the end of the line for most of them.  

......       

I doubt that you know many black people. 

The first rule is to assume the right to equality of dignity with people of different origin until lyou see compelling, fault-worthy reason to believe otherwise. I have learned how to size people up from the content and quality of conversation, giving an allowance for age and gender. Think of the sorts of clothes that people wear,  Possessions? No. All people have differing priorities.  A semi-literate person with an expensive car impresses me (that could be a pimp or a drug pusher) less than does an intelligent person who drives an econobox vehicle (some people think that status symbols are for schmucks). In New York City, not having a car is commonplace, so that's not good for much.

Yep, Minnesota wasn't the Wild West or at least that's what the James Gang thought before they were completely decimated by a bunch of well armed American citizens (rednecks) who lived in Northfield, Minnesota. I bet I know and I have met more American blacks and Hispanics and Asians than you. You may feel better about yourself or less racist towards blacks because you watched the Cosby Show or The Jefferson's. Dude, I went to high school with black kids like the Huxtables before the show was popular.

The concept of the Wild West didn't emerge until after it was gone. The James-Younger gang miscalculated about Minnesota. 

My involvement with blacks, Hispanics, and Asians depends upon my location and vocation at the time... As for Asians, there were lots of them where I went to college (the University of California at Berkeley)... mostly nice, likable people.  The females are wonderful if you prefer powerful brains to big breasts, or at least such was my impression. The problem is that they looked like jail-bait due to small size even if they acted middle-aged. (Smart people around age 20 tend to act middle-aged long before their time).  I'm surprised that I didn't end up marrying one. Not 'women's-libbers'? Any woman would become a militant feminist with me as a husband in view of gaps of personality not of my choosing if she weren't a feminist beforehand. Hispanics completely defy stereotypes other than those of class. And, yes, I have much more in common with the black bourgeoisie than with many white subcultures. 

OK, I apologize for the sexual allusion toward you. Maybe you don't patronize prostitutes of any kind.

(07-18-2020, 03:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, Minnesota wasn't the Wild West or at least that's what the James Gang thought before they were completely decimated by a bunch of well armed American citizens (rednecks) who lived in Northfield, Minnesota.

In the gilded age, there was a romantic view of the outlaws being the good guys, and the enemy was the Robber Barons and corporations who were bringing the old independent free life to an end. Robbing Wells Fargo, a bank, or some rich railroad was a good thing? Big rich corporate easterners go home?

Not everyone saw it that way, for example the people of Northfield. Still, for a romantic reading a pulp piece far away, the perspective was understandable.

(07-18-2020, 03:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-18-2020, 03:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, Minnesota wasn't the Wild West or at least that's what the James Gang thought before they were completely decimated by a bunch of well armed American citizens (rednecks) who lived in Northfield, Minnesota.

In the gilded age, there was a romantic view of the outlaws being the good guys, and the enemy was the Robber Barons and corporations who were bringing the old independent free life to an end.  Robbing Wells Fargo, a bank, or some rich railroad was a good thing?  Big rich corporate easterners go home?

Not everyone saw it that way, for example the people of Northfield.  Still, for a romantic reading a pulp piece far away, the perspective was understandable.

When the railroads were built, the railroads hired huge numbers of laborers for their construction. Those construction laborers were spending big parts of their pay close to where they worked (for obvious reasons), and the community near the construction site prospered as it never had (and probably never would) again.  The saloons, hotels, music halls, and cat houses were making money. Surely some of those laborers bought the local newspaper and put a little money into the collection plates of the local churches.  Once the construction was over, the laborers moved on and the railroad became a place at which to spend money but not make it. That's how a capital-rich operation works in an economy.  The railroads then took money from passengers and shippers... maybe a station agent lived locally but that was about it. So it was with putting up telegraph lines or a power-generation plant.  It's useful, but it doesn't generate large numbers of jobs. 

The railroads were distant money-grabbers, and their owners often operated on the principle of charging what the traffic would bear. It might have cost less to ship a load of cattle or wheat from Grand Island to Lincoln as from Denver to New York City. Oh-oh. It's hardly surprising that people thought the railroads "crooks".

(07-18-2020, 03:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-18-2020, 03:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, Minnesota wasn't the Wild West or at least that's what the James Gang thought before they were completely decimated by a bunch of well armed American citizens (rednecks) who lived in Northfield, Minnesota.

In the gilded age, there was a romantic view of the outlaws being the good guys, and the enemy was the Robber Barons and corporations who were bringing the old independent free life to an end.  Robbing Wells Fargo, a bank, or some rich railroad was a good thing?  Big rich corporate easterners go home?

Not everyone saw it that way, for example the people of Northfield.  Still, for a romantic reading a pulp piece far away, the perspective was understandable.

Yep. The romantic view of famous outlaws went on to include gangsters like Al Capone, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde and so forth until FDR and J. Edger Hoover showed up and began leaning heavy on Democratic governors/mayors to stop enabling them by offering them sanctuary and began taking them out/down one by one.

(07-18-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-17-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I don't care if the liberals running Berkeley and the liberals who live there decide to cut their armed police force budget in half and use the other half to fund unarmed social workers/ peacekeepers who aren't nearly as well trained in self defense or the use of firearms and end up regretting doing it or going along with it down the road. I assume they're about as wise and as sharp as the liberals that I see in congress and the ones seen on TV and the ones on the internet these days. I don't live there and I don't have to pay for their mistakes. Dude, we are going to functioning as separate countries within a decade or so anyway. So,  who gives a fuck about what the liberals are doing and messing with in their areas at this point.

By that measure, you don't support the armed Federal vigilantes Trump is using in Portland Oregon, because Lefties in Lefty places should be allowed to rot in place -- except not in this case.

Classic Xer's attitude of not caring what liberal lefties in blue cities are doing doesn't seem to have reached the White House. According to Trump, he has the right to send his secret armies to blue cities like Portland and Minneapolis to attack or round up anyone they choose, regardless of whether they are freely and peacefully exercizing their rights or not.

(07-18-2020, 06:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. The romantic view of famous outlaws went on to include gangsters like Al Capone, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde and so forth until FDR and J. Edger Hoover showed up and began leaning heavy on Democratic governors/mayors to stop enabling them by offering them sanctuary and began taking them out/down one by one.

I view it as FDR expanding the federal government to handle problems that previous administrations had not addressed.  In this case, it included smoothing out the boom and bust economy so common in the gilded age which cumulated in the Great Depression, plus supporting the original law and order function of the FBI.

I can see how later presidents by some definitions took this progressive thing too far.  In buying the black vote and splitting off the racist vote, the progressive era ended.  America was made not great rather than the conservatives seeing the drive for equality continue.  

Unravellings happen.

(07-18-2020, 10:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Classic Xer's attitude of not caring what liberal lefties in blue cities are doing doesn't seem to have reached the White House. According to Trump, he has the right to send his secret armies to blue cities like Portland and Minneapolis to attack or round up anyone they choose, regardless of whether they are freely and peacefully exercizing their rights or not.

As federal forces can only be sent to defend federal property, the Boogaloo Bois respond by attacking federal buildings, giving the feds the excuse they are looking for to go aggressive.  They sort of deserve each other, but the legitimate protesters should just avoid federal targets if they wish to avoid the violence.

(07-18-2020, 03:27 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-18-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I thought that I've made it very, very clear to you and every other liberal here, that I place no value on liberal groups like Antifa that are already busy waging war with today's American union. You go right  ahead and side with them and whoever is funding them  and we'll see how long you're able  survive here.

I view Antifa as counter protesting the KKK and Neo Nazi.  They never made war against the American union.  That is a red willful ignorance straw man.  It shows how you let your belief in your straw man prevent you from knowing what liberals really are motivated by, what is really going on.

That whole scene seems 3T now.  With Black Lives Matter becoming a major scene in the 4T, the KKK, Neo Nazi and Antifa are being overwhelmed.  I wouldn't doubt some of Antifa's people are marching with BLM, but their sole purpose isn't really there anymore.  They are pretty irrelevant at least for the moment with the vanishing of their primary opposition.

But some reds are still treating them like some big deal threat, even if they have not shown up lately.

I assume that you view the American government and all of its federal employees associated with American law enforcement  (even the blacks, the Hispanics and people of other races among them) as members of the KKK and Neo Nazi's these days too.. Dude, there is a low profile (liberal media isn't covering it or saying much about it other than what's being leaked to people like Dave for Dave to use like he did with me) modern day siege of Fort Sumter by today's Confederates going on in Portland today that's been going on steady for a few months.

[quote='Classic-Xer' pid='55132' dateline='1595184502']I assume that you view the American government and all of its federal employees associated with American law enforcement  (even the blacks, the Hispanics and people of other races among them) as members of the KKK and Neo Nazi's these days too.. [/quote]

Well, no, I must acknowledge that you have quite an imagination. I view the American government like its people as very much split between red and blue. Most of either flavor would not bother to protest with the Neo Nazi or KKK, especially now when all three groups are virtually invisible. America has moved on. Well, most of it. You still seem to be in the 3T.

[quote='Classic-Xer' pid='55132' dateline='1595184502'Dude, there is a low profile (liberal media isn't covering it or saying much about it other than what's being leaked to people like Dave for Dave to use like he did with me) modern day siege of Fort Sumter by today's Confederates going on in Portland today that's been going on steady for a few months.[/quote]

Fort Sumpter was an attack on federal property by a bunch of people who wanted to initiate violence. That sort of is what the Boogaloo Bois want to do. The Boogaloo Bois do not have the stature of the Confederate Government. Granted, some of the red faction of the government also seems to want to settle the issue by force and violence too. They are leading each other on a merry dance. I'd wish them luck with each other save they are dragging some of the protesters into their dance.

The blue leaning parts of the government, the people, and the protestors are leaning away from the violence.

But that is not what the protestors is asking for. I can't speak for everyone, but I favor that the good cops be more loyal to the law and to the community than to the bad cops. I don't see us getting rid of the blue wall of silence entirely, but it should be easy to lose the worthiness it takes to earn that protection.

Dave? Are you getting stuff from some secret conspiracy, or is that a figment of Classic's imagination too?

(07-18-2020, 10:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-18-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-17-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I don't care if the liberals running Berkeley and the liberals who live there decide to cut their armed police force budget in half and use the other half to fund unarmed social workers/ peacekeepers who aren't nearly as well trained in self defense or the use of firearms and end up regretting doing it or going along with it down the road. I assume they're about as wise and as sharp as the liberals that I see in congress and the ones seen on TV and the ones on the internet these days. I don't live there and I don't have to pay for their mistakes. Dude, we are going to functioning as separate countries within a decade or so anyway. So,  who gives a fuck about what the liberals are doing and messing with in their areas at this point.

By that measure, you don't support the armed Federal vigilantes Trump is using in Portland Oregon, because Lefties in Lefty places should be allowed to rot in place -- except not in this case.

Classic Xer's attitude of not caring what liberal lefties in blue cities are doing doesn't seem to have reached the White House. According to Trump, he has the right to send his secret armies to blue cities like Portland and Minneapolis to attack or round up anyone they choose, regardless of whether they are freely and peacefully exercizing their rights or not.

The peaceful liberal groups better figure out a way to completely separate themselves from the radical liberal groups like Antifa, Black Lives Matter and so forth if they don't want to find themselves being lumped in with them and viewed and treated the same as them these days.

(07-19-2020, 02:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]The peaceful liberal groups better figure out a way to completely separate themselves from the radical liberal groups like Antifa, Black Lives Matter and so forth if they don't want to find themselves being lumped in with them and viewed and treated the same as them these days.

Has anyone caught recent activity by the KKK, Neo Nazi or Antifa?  To my mind, the KKK and Neo Nazi have virtually vanished since George Floyd died, and the Antifa was always a counter protest group, against the racist organizations, and willing to go violent if the opposition did.  All three groups are pretty much relics of the pre trigger time.  They are only a threat in the minds of reds who do not understand the situation.

(07-19-2020, 02:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Fort Sumpter was an attack on federal property by a bunch of people who wanted to initiate violence.  That sort of is what the Boogaloo Bois want to do.  The Boogaloo Bois do not have the stature of the Confederate Government.  Granted, some of the red faction of the government also seems to want to settle the issue by force and violence too.  They are leading each other on a merry dance.  I'd wish them luck with each other save they are dragging some of the protesters into their dance.

The blue leaning parts of the government, the people, and the protestors are leaning away from the violence.

But that is not what the protestors is asking for.  I can't speak for everyone, but I favor that the good cops be more loyal to the law and to the community than to the bad cops.  I don't see us getting rid of the blue wall of silence entirely, but it should be easy to lose the worthiness it takes to earn that protection.

Dave?  Are you getting stuff from some secret conspiracy, or is that a figment of Classic's imagination too?

Yep. Fort Sumter represented an attack on federal property by a violent group who wanted to send the American government and its people and all their Confederate supporters a message by seizing an American fort. Bob, you seem to be having a problem recognizing the eerie similarities between what went on with Fort Sumter and other federal properties back then and what's going on with federal properties located in certain parts of the country today. The liberals are strumming its nose and blowing off Americans just like the British and the Confederates. I'll help you learn what it was like to be a starving Confederate civilian, a Confederate whose government was to weak to stop rogue groups of criminals from murdering, looting and raping unprotected women as they please or stop an American army or armed American population from killing and removing the rights of thousands upon thousands of Confederate supporters and so forth. I assume that Dave is getting his information from the same groups and media outlets and sources that you and others are these days. I know that if you and I were to meet, you wouldn't be able to look me in the face or give me a straight answer or admit to me that you are/ were wrong and apologize even if your life depended upon you doing it at the time.

(07-19-2020, 02:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-19-2020, 02:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]The peaceful liberal groups better figure out a way to completely separate themselves from the radical liberal groups like Antifa, Black Lives Matter and so forth if they don't want to find themselves being lumped in with them and viewed and treated the same as them these days.

Has anyone caught recent activity by the KKK, Neo Nazi or Antifa?  To my mind, the KKK and Neo Nazi have virtually vanished since George Floyd died, and the Antifa was always a counter protest group, against the racist organizations, and willing to go violent if the opposition did.  All three groups are pretty much relics of the pre trigger time.  They are only a threat in the minds of reds who do not understand the situation.

Well, Antifa recently destroyed a police precinct and a bunch of other government related property (assets) in Minneapolis and Black Live Matter is now in the process of imposing its values on the rest of Minneapolis by defunding and further weakening what's left of its police force.

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Well, Antifa recently destroyed a police precinct and a bunch of other government related property (assets) in Minneapolis...

Antifa, or the Boogaloo Bois? Last I knew, the people pushing destruction were not leaving calling cards. I've been assuming their propaganda about their respective objectives are accurate. You seem to prefer to pervert the stated motivations.

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]and Black Live Matter is now  in the process of imposing its values on the rest of Minneapolis by defunding and further weakening what's left of its police force.

Yes, after centuries of murder and prejudiced oppression. The police have resisted reforming their violent racist habits, and you can only get results by replacing rather than reforming them. Are you in favor or racist oppression, of a hostile relationship with the community you are supposed to protect?

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. Fort Sumter represented an attack on federal property by a violent group who wanted to send the American government and its people and all their Confederate supporters a message by seizing an American fort. Bob, you seem to be having a problem recognizing the eerie similarities between what went on with Fort Sumter and other federal properties back then and what's going on with federal properties located in certain parts of the country today...  

I recognize the pattern.  Those trying to cling to the old values get submarined by the arrow of progress.  They appeal to violence and lose.  In the Information Age, I anticipate the violence will be replaced by legislation to a great extent.

Ask any slaveholder how it works, if you can find one.

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I assume that Dave is getting his information from the same groups and media  outlets and sources that you and others are these days. I know that if you and I were to meet, you wouldn't be able to look me in the face or give me a straight answer or admit to me that you are/ were wrong and apologize even if your life depended upon you doing it at the time.

I do pick up the quite public reports, with the CNN and the AP pages being the most common these days.  I generally link to my sources.  I can quite assure you that no one is sending me anything that isn't on an obvious page.  Your assumption that I am getting secretive propaganda from some hidden blue group is a figment of your rather warped imagination.  It is totally divorced from reality, as is most of your junk.

(07-18-2020, 06:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-18-2020, 03:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-18-2020, 03:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, Minnesota wasn't the Wild West or at least that's what the James Gang thought before they were completely decimated by a bunch of well armed American citizens (rednecks) who lived in Northfield, Minnesota.

In the gilded age, there was a romantic view of the outlaws being the good guys, and the enemy was the Robber Barons and corporations who were bringing the old independent free life to an end.  Robbing Wells Fargo, a bank, or some rich railroad was a good thing?  Big rich corporate easterners go home?

Not everyone saw it that way, for example the people of Northfield.  Still, for a romantic reading a pulp piece far away, the perspective was understandable.

Yep. The romantic view of famous outlaws went on to include gangsters like Al Capone, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde and so forth until FDR and J. Edger Hoover showed up and began leaning heavy on Democratic governors/mayors to stop enabling them by offering them sanctuary and began taking them out/down one by one.

New technology often gets put to perverse uses. Inexpensive video equipment as recording devices and playback devices became the conduits for child pornography. Computers and wire transfers can be programmed to do large-scale embezzlement. Firearms... what could be more obvious? The automobile was the perfect device for hit-and-run offenses... do an armed robbery in a neighboring state or near-neighboring state, getting to the scene of the crime and returning to one's own state where one lives off the loot. In one's own state one behaves oneself and does nothing to be prosecuted there. Bad people are as adept as putting technology to use as the rest of us.   

It's J. Edgar Hoover who put an end to the practice of offenders crossing state lines to get away with crimes because they happened to be 'clean' in one state. Bonnie and Clyde did that. To a certain extent Dillinger (still the most hated man in Indiana) did that. They typically lived off the proceeds of their crimes in one state in which they did nothing illegal. J. Edgar Hoover made the most of a federal law that made a federal offense of crossing a state line to avoid criminal prosecution. Once the offender was in federal custody for a comparatively minor crime, the crook could be sent to the state of choosing by the FBI for prosecution. So you live in Wisconsin but commit your big crimes in Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana? The FBI will let the several states practically bid on who gets him based upon the severity of offenses. If the crime is likely to get one a very long stay in prison or a short stay followed by a few thousand volts in the electric chair... then a case nearly certain to lead to the electric chair wins. There were other tricks, too. Capone was ultimately convicted not of bootlegging and murders but of federal tax evasion. Kidnapping for ransom was an easy way to make money as a criminal until the Feds clamped down.

The 1930's was the peak decade for executions. While Governor of New York State, FDR had signed some death warrants. He never was exactly 'nice' to offenders. Let's remember also that the movie studios followed the lead of the politicians in showing criminal offenders as scum who ended up perhaps like "Rocky Sullivan" (James Cagney) in Angels with Dirty Faces , initially living the high life until their lives take the well-deserved end... the electric chair. Note well that in that movie a crooked attorney (played by none other than Humphrey Bogart) who gets complicity in the crimes of "Rocky" ends up dead in a gangland murder. 

So the outlaws who were heroes in some misguided circles ended up in prison, killed by law enforcement, or 'fried' in the electric chair. That's one way to lose relevance. It's also telling that American propaganda of World War II did much to compare Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo to such gangsters. OK, Mussolini would die of a firing squad after being caught by Resistance forces taking over in northern Italy before the US Army got to him; Hitler offed himself in a bunker a couple of days before the Soviet Army got into his bunker; Tojo would be hanged and not electrocuted. But you get the general idea. 

OK... running afoul of Donald Trump politically isn't close to the sort of offense as the sort of offense that liberals usually find easy to treat as a public horror -- such as human trafficking. Like genuine despots who get away with killing those who run afoul of them, Trump sees dissent as a great crime. Our system never has worked that way and, so far as I can tell, never will. Checks and balances are far better defenses of human rights and civil liberties than is the public love of liberty. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Satan Hussein, and al-Baghdadi never let checks and balances get in the way of their agenda.  Checks and balances do far more to stop a Donald Trump who tries to rule as a despot than a Barack Obama who honors the niceties of the rule of law. 

You tell me, though -- which bleeding-heart liberal politician is giving sanctuary to outlaws reminiscent of  Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Frank and Jesse James, etc.? Several of our most liberal politicians got their political starts as crime-busting DA's who saw no political significance in suppressing drug trafficking, child abuse, spouse abuse, and perhaps auto-theft rings. I am a liberal and I was offended when a relative of mine (by marriage) bragged about buying some stolen tires... in the presence of someone whose car was stolen and my father whose car was broken into for its expensive radio. 

It might surprise you that the criminals are generally apolitical. They simply prefer weak, lax, or incompetent law enforcement that allows them to get away with their crimes... or think themselves smarter than some "dumb cop".

(07-19-2020, 04:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Well, Antifa recently destroyed a police precinct and a bunch of other government related property (assets) in Minneapolis...

Antifa, or the Boogaloo Bois?  Last I knew, the people pushing destruction were not leaving calling cards.  I've been assuming their propaganda about their respective objectives are accurate.  You seem to prefer to pervert the stated motivations.

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]and Black Live Matter is now  in the process of imposing its values on the rest of Minneapolis by defunding and further weakening what's left of its police force.

Yes, after centuries of murder and prejudiced oppression.  The police have resisted reforming their violent racist habits, and you can only get results by replacing rather than reforming them.  Are you in favor or racist oppression, of a hostile relationship with the community you are supposed to protect?

Bob, I'm going to be associated with racist oppression whether it's true or not at this point. You seem to be stuck on the Boogaloo Bois and seem pretty clueless about much larger and more powerful groups like Antifa and Black Lives Matter. I think it's very clear that liberals don't care whether what they say about other people and what they believe is actually true or not at this point. I get it, you've already committed and you can't go backwards at this point. I can't touch you but I can touch one of you anytime time that I want at this point. BTW, when we start responding to the Left and start playing tit for tat with the Left and the Left starts finding itself at odds with a much more powerful American version of their own cancel culture their reign will come to an ugly and brutal end. I don't know who taught you that America can't be as mean or meaner and less sympathetic than the Left towards the Left these days but who ever did was either a fool or a liar.

(07-19-2020, 06:04 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]New technology often gets put to perverse uses. Inexpensive video equipment as recording devices and playback devices became the conduits for child pornography. Computers and wire transfers can be programmed to do large-scale embezzlement. Firearms... what could be more obvious? The automobile was the perfect device for hit-and-run offenses... do an armed robbery in a neighboring state or near-neighboring state, getting to the scene of the crime and returning to one's own state where one lives off the loot. In one's own state one behaves oneself and does nothing to be prosecuted there. Bad people are as adept as putting technology to use as the rest of us.   

It's J. Edgar Hoover who put an end to the practice of offenders crossing state lines to get away with crimes because they happened to be 'clean' in one state. Bonnie and Clyde did that. To a certain extent Dillinger (still the most hated man in Indiana) did that. They typically lived off the proceeds of their crimes in one state in which they did nothing illegal. J. Edgar Hoover made the most of a federal law that made a federal offense of crossing a state line to avoid criminal prosecution. Once the offender was in federal custody for a comparatively minor crime, the crook could be sent to the state of choosing by the FBI for prosecution. So you live in Wisconsin but commit your big crimes in Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana? The FBI will let the several states practically bid on who gets him based upon the severity of offenses. If the crime is likely to get one a very long stay in prison or a short stay followed by a few thousand volts in the electric chair... then a case nearly certain to lead to the electric chair wins. There were other tricks, too. Capone was ultimately convicted not of bootlegging and murders but of federal tax evasion. Kidnapping for ransom was an easy way to make money as a criminal until the Feds clamped down.

The 1930's was the peak decade for executions. While Governor of New York State, FDR had signed some death warrants. He never was exactly 'nice' to offenders. Let's remember also that the movie studios followed the lead of the politicians in showing criminal offenders as scum who ended up perhaps like "Rocky Sullivan" (James Cagney) in Angels with Dirty Faces , initially living the high life until their lives take the well-deserved end... the electric chair. Note well that in that movie a crooked attorney (played by none other than Humphrey Bogart) who gets complicity in the crimes of "Rocky" ends up dead in a gangland murder. 

So the outlaws who were heroes in some misguided circles ended up in prison, killed by law enforcement, or 'fried' in the electric chair. That's one way to lose relevance. It's also telling that American propaganda of World War II did much to compare Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo to such gangsters. OK, Mussolini would die of a firing squad after being caught by Resistance forces taking over in northern Italy before the US Army got to him; Hitler offed himself in a bunker a couple of days before the Soviet Army got into his bunker; Tojo would be hanged and not electrocuted. But you get the general idea. 

OK... running afoul of Donald Trump politically isn't close to the sort of offense as the sort of offense that liberals usually find easy to treat as a public horror -- such as human trafficking. Like genuine despots who get away with killing those who run afoul of them, Trump sees dissent as a great crime. Our system never has worked that way and, so far as I can tell, never will. Checks and balances are far better defenses of human rights and civil liberties than is the public love of liberty. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Satan Hussein, and al-Baghdadi never let checks and balances get in the way of their agenda.  Checks and balances do far more to stop a Donald Trump who tries to rule as a despot than a Barack Obama who honors the niceties of the rule of law. 

You tell me, though -- which bleeding-heart liberal politician is giving sanctuary to outlaws reminiscent of  Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Frank and Jesse James, etc.? Several of our most liberal politicians got their political starts as crime-busting DA's who saw no political significance in suppressing drug trafficking, child abuse, spouse abuse, and perhaps auto-theft rings. I am a liberal and I was offended when a relative of mine (by marriage) bragged about buying some stolen tires... in the presence of someone whose car was stolen and my father whose car was broken into for its expensive radio. 

It might surprise you that the criminals are generally apolitical. They simply prefer weak, lax, or incompetent law enforcement that allows them to get away with their crimes... or think themselves smarter than some "dumb cop".

Yep. The criminals prefer law enforcement to weak, lax, incompetent and pretty much powerless. You're smart enough to figure that out and understand that as well but you're not wise enough to associate it with what Black Lives Matter is up to and trying to get away with doing right now. Well, we are wise enough to see it for what it is and vote accordingly.