CNN has a
birther opinion piece on how the establishment is yielding principles to avoid retribution from Trump and his base. It has the Republicans abandoning long held principles in order to dodge being targeted. It ends...
CNN Wrote:The reality Republicans face is this: A party without any principles isn't a party at all.
Yep. I know. I have recently claimed gathering as much wealth and power as you can is a principle. Avoiding trouble by giving the guy in power what he wants is a principle. But the writer is correct. Those are not the type of principle that keeps a party going.
(08-13-2020, 09:59 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Conservatives are right to defend free markets, but when they defend class privilege in an order with severe inequality that degrades human life, they enter the realm of indefensible absurdity. The Democrats at least stand for means (including high-quality education) that allow many to escape poverty. Republicans want people competing for a shrinking number of jobs in sweatshops while their tax policies favor monopolistic, vertically-integrated behemoths more capable of concentrating wealth and economic power while discarding workers.
Who is the idiot ( the mentally handicapped person in your case) who is being used to defend class privilege without knowing it these days? It's not me. Who is the political party that's been using him and taking advantage of him as a cheap source spread lies and spread their propaganda and ideological beliefs and so forth? It's not the Republican party.
(08-14-2020, 08:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 03:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The government that is breaking down now is being run by your guy, or haven't you noticed?
Don't confuse the poor guy with facts. You are ruining some perfectly good fantasies! 
(08-14-2020, 03:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I thought I already refuted these statements. On another thread maybe? Or above?
That seem par for the course. We seem to be repeating ourselves on both sides quite a bit. Like, I got tired of saying what the Founding Fathers believed about the Second Amendment, and written quite clearly into the law. There are certain things that an extremest of either flavor refuses to hear.
(08-14-2020, 03:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Trump has no values or principles at all, and your side following and depending on his showmanship for your political power over us shows no values at all on your part. As for "what happened the last time the New America started a war with America?" that was called the civil war, and your side lost pretty badly. And you still want to celebrate and laud the fallen heroes of this lost and ignoble cause.
I wouldn't say no values or principles. 'Get more wealth and power' counts, even if they seem so out of step as not to be counted as values or principles by some. It is sort of like when Classic claims liberals have no values. If your values are so much in conflict with the other guy, he might not recognize the values as values at all.
I think you could call the (expletive deleted) poor values, though.
I gave up on the entire wash-rinse-repeat cycle. Classic is unreachable ... as are we for that matter. He's exceedingly comfortable with his version of the truth. We're comfortable with ours. Spending hours trying to change that is hours spent on futility, so I wish you well. I'll be over here having a beer.
(08-14-2020, 02:48 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 08:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 03:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The government that is breaking down now is being run by your guy, or haven't you noticed?
Don't confuse the poor guy with facts. You are ruining some perfectly good fantasies!
(08-14-2020, 03:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I thought I already refuted these statements. On another thread maybe? Or above?
That seem par for the course. We seem to be repeating ourselves on both sides quite a bit. Like, I got tired of saying what the Founding Fathers believed about the Second Amendment, and written quite clearly into the law. There are certain things that an extremest of either flavor refuses to hear.
(08-14-2020, 03:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Trump has no values or principles at all, and your side following and depending on his showmanship for your political power over us shows no values at all on your part. As for "what happened the last time the New America started a war with America?" that was called the civil war, and your side lost pretty badly. And you still want to celebrate and laud the fallen heroes of this lost and ignoble cause.
I wouldn't say no values or principles. 'Get more wealth and power' counts, even if they seem so out of step as not to be counted as values or principles by some. It is sort of like when Classic claims liberals have no values. If your values are so much in conflict with the other guy, he might not recognize the values as values at all.
I think you could call the (expletive deleted) poor values, though.
I gave up on the entire wash-rinse-repeat cycle. Classic is unreachable ... as are we for that matter. He's exceedingly comfortable with his version of the truth. We're comfortable with ours. Spending hours trying to change that is hours spent on futility, so I wish you well. I'll be over here having a beer.
I have tended to look at this as putting out the truth as I see it for those who may be lurking, and to counter Classic's propaganda, rather than trying to change Classic's mind.
I would expect that if we all just gave up and ignored Classic (I don't mean put him on ignore), that he would claim victory over the liberals again!
(08-14-2020, 03:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The government that is breaking down now is being run by your guy, or haven't you noticed?
I thought I already refuted these statements. On another thread maybe? Or above?
Your observations don't convince us. What you see is not what is. It's only what you claim to see. We have almost no welfare today. Scapegoating single Moms who are working hard to raise their kids and work for a living because they get a little government help for a little while does not wash too well. It's a rather pathetic scapegoat indeed to blame for your resentment over paying reasonable taxes that mostly go to the military and paying the interest on the national debt that your side caused.
Trump has no values or principles at all, and your side following and depending on his showmanship for your political power over us shows no values at all on your part. As for "what happened the last time the New America started a war with America?" that was called the civil war, and your side lost pretty badly. And you still want to celebrate and laud the fallen heroes of this lost and ignoble cause.
Dude, I don't care if you continue to deny and continue to lie and continue decreasing your value like you've been doing with me for years for a group of rich people who only place value on themselves and those who are elected (paid) to protect them and pass laws or ignore laws that they favor and so forth.
You seem pretty Woke like to me these days. You seemed pretty Woke like the first time we met too. Well, guess what, we have a term now that we didn't have back when we first met. How many Liberal Woke's want the freedom to fuck little boys and girls these days? How many Woke's want the freedom (legal right) to fuck whoever they want whenever they want and do whatever else they want to do these days? So, how many Woke's are mortal human beings who would die when shot in the head or hung by the neck or blown up in their homes and how many of them would starve without food, medical treatment, roofs over their heads and money in their pockets? We aren't there yet but we are getting closer and I'm just curious about what you think about your Woke's and their politicians and political organizations these days?
As I recall, the Democratic group that started the last Civil War with America lost just about everything. I'm an American dude and you know it and everyone who can read and understand a little knows it too. Trump has the same values and principles as every other American on the Republican side today. As I've said, Trump represents the entire American right these days. So, who are the ones on the left sending the money to bailout their criminals caught rioting in Minneapolis/St. Paul these days? Did you know that a group of your rich people raised millions of dollars to bail out a bunch of your/their low life criminals for the price of $350,000 each? Minnesota was informed of it last week. It's already done and there is nothing that Minnesotans can do about it now.
(08-14-2020, 02:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ] (08-13-2020, 09:59 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Conservatives are right to defend free markets, but when they defend class privilege in an order with severe inequality that degrades human life, they enter the realm of indefensible absurdity. The Democrats at least stand for means (including high-quality education) that allow many to escape poverty. Republicans want people competing for a shrinking number of jobs in sweatshops while their tax policies favor monopolistic, vertically-integrated behemoths more capable of concentrating wealth and economic power while discarding workers.
Who is the idiot (the mentally handicapped person in your case) who is being used to defend class privilege without knowing it these days? It's not me. Who is the political party that's been using him and taking advantage of him as a cheap source spread lies and spread their propaganda and ideological beliefs and so forth? It's not the Republican party.
Asperger's syndrome is not mental retardation. OK, you use a word (idiot) that has had a formal meaning in the psychological lexicon, although the current term is "profoundly mentally impaired", typically for someone with an IQ under 30. That is the level of development characteristic of someone six years old once an adult. The words idiot (as in "that idiot cut me off"), to a lesser extent imbecile, and moron (as in "pop culture is designed so that morons can enjoy it" or "that moron expected to find Twin Cities broadcast channels in Duluth".
A healthy economic order will reward people well for competence in scarce abilities and skills (such as your ability to install and repair HVAC units) and might make most jobs (let us say retail sales clerking) easy enough that someone on the borderline of mental retardation can do them and will pay such people far less than someone with well-honed, specialized skills and talents.
(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I recall, the Democratic group that started the last Civil War with America lost just about everything.
I would say the last civil war the rural racist faction lost just about everything. The side for democracy, human rights and equality came out ahead. The Republicans switched and picked up the racist vote around Nixon’s time, just as whey went from isolationists to strong on defense world policemen. Parties flip flop on various issues. If you don’t want to seem ignorant, you learn these things. You can’t take credit for Lincoln anymore.
(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said, Trump represents the entire American right these days.
Not the entire right. Biden picked up quite a few, so that’s one faction. There is the Tea Party base which has become Trump’s base and the establishment which doesn’t dare stand against him. It seems we have two years at least to see how the Republicans come out of the COVID deaths and Black Lives Matter values change. I think it will be like previous 4Ts with the old racist and elitist biases purged form the main line conservatives, but it has to happen.
(08-13-2020, 02:00 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe one month of a lock-down would have been adequate.
Oh, it most likely won't kill you? Would you ride with a drunk driver? Would you use street drugs? Would you drive a car at a speed over 100 mph on the open road? Would you take the risk of a rattlesnake bite? If you are going to take inordinate risk, then it had better be for some cause undeniably good such as combat on behalf of your country.
People on welfare are obliged to seek work and take work available in many places even if the work is odious and a poor fit for the person.
You are a fool. You think you represent the common man, but you loyally serve people who believe that no human suffering can be in excess so long as it serves those elites. Furthermore you cannot recognize that people as American as you are are fully American.
Maybe??? Maybe not??? Maybe a month or two or three or maybe even a year or maybe even two or three years to be completely safe??? Well, we are going to see the negative results of months of Democratic maybe's and absolutely not with the exception of our own or those politically associated with us.
(08-14-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I recall, the Democratic group that started the last Civil War with America lost just about everything.
I would say the last civil war the rural racist faction lost just about everything. The side for democracy, human rights and equality came out ahead. The Republicans switched and picked up the racist vote around Nixon’s time, just as whey went from isolationists to strong on defense world policemen. Parties flip flop on various issues. If you don’t want to seem ignorant, you learn these things. You can’t take credit for Lincoln anymore.
(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said, Trump represents the entire American right these days.
Not the entire right. Biden picked up quite a few, so that’s one faction. There is the Tea Party base which has become Trump’s base and the establishment which doesn’t dare stand against him. It seems we have two years at least to see how the Republicans come out of the COVID deaths and Black Lives Matter values change. I think it will be like previous 4Ts with the old racist and elitist biases purged form the main line conservatives, but it has to happen.
I'm sorry but I am still associated with the party of Lincoln and the USA.
(08-14-2020, 05:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Asperger's syndrome is not mental retardation. OK, you use a word (idiot) that has had a formal meaning in the psychological lexicon, although the current term is "profoundly mentally impaired", typically for someone with an IQ under 30. That is the level of development characteristic of someone six years old once an adult. The words idiot (as in "that idiot cut me off"), to a lesser extent imbecile, and moron (as in "pop culture is designed so that morons can enjoy it" or "that moron expected to find Twin Cities broadcast channels in Duluth".
A healthy economic order will reward people well for competence in scarce abilities and skills (such as your ability to install and repair HVAC units) and might make most jobs (let us say retail sales clerking) easy enough that someone on the borderline of mental retardation can do them and will pay such people far less than someone with well-honed, specialized skills and talents.
I'm sorry teach, thanks for the grammar lesson. I'll refer to clueless liberals as imbeciles and morons instead of idiots from now on. Would you prefer that I continue to acknowledge that you have a mental disability or would you prefer to be treated the same way as the imbeciles and morons are going to be treated by us?
(08-14-2020, 07:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I recall, the Democratic group that started the last Civil War with America lost just about everything.
I would say the last civil war the rural racist faction lost just about everything. The side for democracy, human rights and equality came out ahead. The Republicans switched and picked up the racist vote around Nixon’s time, just as whey went from isolationists to strong on defense world policemen. Parties flip flop on various issues. If you don’t want to seem ignorant, you learn these things. You can’t take credit for Lincoln anymore.
(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said, Trump represents the entire American right these days.
Not the entire right. Biden picked up quite a few, so that’s one faction. There is the Tea Party base which has become Trump’s base and the establishment which doesn’t dare stand against him. It seems we have two years at least to see how the Republicans come out of the COVID deaths and Black Lives Matter values change. I think it will be like previous 4Ts with the old racist and elitist biases purged form the main line conservatives, but it has to happen.
I'm sorry but I am still associated with the party of Lincoln and the USA.
The old time Lincoln Republicans as well as being the party of the abolitionists were for industrial development, the climax of the industrial revolution. At that time they were the progressives. They were against the agriculture landowners of the south, against the slaveowners thus against the old culture. I would have been with the Republicans had I lived then. They wanted to move forward but the south was holding them back. Development would mean more free states, threaten the slave economy, thus there was a big conflict between Agricultural Age and Industrial Age thinking.
They soon became the robber barons and opposed the workers. As Jim Crow went in, the Republicans stopped thinking race an important issue. I am not a fan of the Republicans as they were in the Gilded Age. For much of the Gilded Age, both parties had progressive and conservative wings. They were loyal to their civil war heritages more than the progressive vs conservative relatively 'unimportant' issue.
That is one place where the Republicans have been consistent. They have always had a robber baron - elite stance. They have varied on race and varied on isolationism, but they have stayed with their wall street and corporation loyalty. Well, almost always. The Tea Party began to dislike the Republican Establishment and tried to shake off loyalty to the elites, but ended up giving their loyalty to the biggest alligator in the swamp. They took a big step back.
I could sympathize with the conservatives if they made a point of getting rid of their elitist and racist tendency. Trump exemplifies both. You haven't often advocated either. I can hope they get rid of the elitist, racist and Trump factions and become an honorable opposition someday.
But to a great degree today's GOP is not what it was in Lincoln's time, nor are the Democrats. Much has changed. I know this should require you to learn a little of the history, but Lincoln's and Trump's time were quite different.
(08-14-2020, 03:49 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]You don't seem to be holding your own too well. But whatever you say.
Really? You just said that you admire my ability to continue taking on you and a group of liberals without help from other conservatives.
(08-14-2020, 08:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The old time Lincoln Republicans as well as being the party of the abolitionists were for industrial development, the climax of the industrial revolution. At that time the were the progressives. They were against the agriculture landowners of the south, against the slaveowners thus against the old culture. I would have been with the Republicans had I lived then. They wanted to move forward but the south was holding them back. Development would mean more free states, threaten the slave economy, thus there was a big conflict between Agricultural Age and Industrial Age thinking.
They soon became the robber barons and opposed the workers. As Jim Crow went in, the Republicans stopped thinking race an important issue. I am not a fan of the Republicans as they were in the Gilded Age. For much of the Gilded Age, both parties had progressive and conservative wings. They were loyal to their civil war heritages more than the progressive vs conservative relatively 'unimportant' issue.
That is one place where the Republicans have been consistent. They have always had a robber baron - elite stance. They have varied on race and varied on isolationism, but they have stayed with their wall street and corporation loyalty. Well, almost always. The Tea Party began to dislike the Republican Establishment and tried to shake off loyalty to the elites, but ended up giving their loyalty to the biggest alligator in the swamp. They took a big step back.
I could sympathize with the conservatives if they made a point of getting rid of their elitist and racist tendency. Trump exemplifies both. You haven't often advocated either. I can hope they get rid of the elitist, racist and Trump factions and become an honorable opposition someday.
But to a great degree today's GOP is not what it was in Lincoln's time, nor are the Democrats. Much has changed. I know this should require you to learn a little of the history, but Lincoln's and Trump's time were quite different.
Dude, I'm not the one using a progressive view of history as a guide and predicting the progressive side will win again despite the obvious differences and advancements associated with today. How many racist and bigoted minorities and whites do you have left on your side these days? You're VP wasn't picked on the basis of her merits or the content of her character. She was picked strictly on the basis of her skin color. I noticed that you haven't stopped using racism either and as long as you want to continue playing with fire we are going to make sure that white imbeciles and moron like you who see value in using it are the ones more likely to be burned than us.
(08-14-2020, 07:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ] (08-13-2020, 02:00 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe one month of a lock-down would have been adequate.
Oh, it most likely won't kill you? Would you ride with a drunk driver? Would you use street drugs? Would you drive a car at a speed over 100 mph on the open road? Would you take the risk of a rattlesnake bite? If you are going to take inordinate risk, then it had better be for some cause undeniably good such as combat on behalf of your country.
People on welfare are obliged to seek work and take work available in many places even if the work is odious and a poor fit for the person.
You are a fool. You think you represent the common man, but you loyally serve people who believe that no human suffering can be in excess so long as it serves those elites. Furthermore you cannot recognize that people as American as you are are fully American.
Maybe??? Maybe not??? Maybe a month or two or three or maybe even a year or maybe even two or three years to be completely safe??? Well, we are going to see the negative results of months of Democratic maybe's and absolutely not with the exception of our own or those politically associated with us.
A month is a little quick. Two is a little high.
First you have to go with the metrics, you have to go with the test results. When you are preventing tests as Trump did to minimize the bad results, you are sort of stuck.
But most nations did test and did isolate and thus did flatten the curve. Trump didn't. I might be curious as to how long the various successful countries did stay shut down. The question as to how long you have to shut down on average is likely answerable by now.
The problem was with the happy talk. A significant number of people refused to shut down as the political leader they were committed to discouraged it. If you do not shut down completely and all states at once, the shutdown has to last longer to achieve results. That is why the lack of a nation wide strategy hurts.
(08-14-2020, 10:07 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I'm not the one using a progressive view of history as a guide and predicting the progressive side will win again despite the obvious differences and advancements associated with today. How many racist and bigoted minorities and whites do you have left on your side these days? You're VP wasn't picked on the basis of her merits or the content of her character. She was picked strictly on the basis of her skin color.
Are you still going with your redefinition of racism to go along with your redefinition of history? Your idea of redefining racism seems to be yours alone. I have observed no reason to consider it.
The arrow of progress. Democracy. Human rights. Equality. Note how history is going and either move with it or be left behind.
(08-14-2020, 07:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I recall, the Democratic group that started the last Civil War with America lost just about everything.
I would say the last civil war the rural racist faction lost just about everything. The side for democracy, human rights and equality came out ahead. The Republicans switched and picked up the racist vote around Nixon’s time, just as whey went from isolationists to strong on defense world policemen. Parties flip flop on various issues. If you don’t want to seem ignorant, you learn these things. You can’t take credit for Lincoln anymore.
(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said, Trump represents the entire American right these days.
Not the entire right. Biden picked up quite a few, so that’s one faction. There is the Tea Party base which has become Trump’s base and the establishment which doesn’t dare stand against him. It seems we have two years at least to see how the Republicans come out of the COVID deaths and Black Lives Matter values change. I think it will be like previous 4Ts with the old racist and elitist biases purged form the main line conservatives, but it has to happen.
I'm sorry but I am still associated with the party of Lincoln and the USA.
No, you are associated with the party of John Breckinridge, Jefferson Davis and the CSA.
(08-14-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ] (08-14-2020, 07:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry but I am still associated with the party of Lincoln and the USA.
No, you are associated with the party of John Breckinridge, Jefferson Davis and the CSA.
I wouldn't go that far. It was a long tortured path the Democrats took from being the rural party of slaveowners to the progressive urban party for workers and minorities. I wouldn't say Classic has walked any of it.