Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(08-15-2020, 11:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-15-2020, 03:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed, an authoritarian government could act more decisively than a democratic one.  Agreed, they could respond to this particular threat more effectively.  Agreed, a democratic government is preferable overall.

But a lot of democratic governments did a lot better than Trump.  How to fight the bug is not hard.  You shut down completely and all at once while defending the borders.  You get the number of people infected low, then test and trace to keep them low.  You produce and distribute enough ventilators, PPE, test kits and so on.  In doing these things, most democratic countries did much better than Trump.  

The solution is not to send a message that the bug isn't serious and make gaining sufficient PPE and testing difficult.  The solution is not to politicize the virus but to respond with science.

Now you can continue to try to view it upside down, but it is clear you are viewing it upside down.  I told Xenakis over in the Generational Dynamics thread that he could convince the people already sharing his bubble, but to people outside the bubble the bubble would be really obvious.  You have much the same problem.  In order to reallocate blame, you have to ignore the science of what is happening.  Those outside the Trump bubble are going to recognize easily what you are doing.

Who is ignoring the science? I'm not ignoring the science like you seem to be doing right now.

You and Trump ignore the science. I admit I am assuming that lives of any color matter. If you assume massive death is cool, you can ignore the science.

Do lives matter to you?

(08-16-2020, 01:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-15-2020, 05:08 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-15-2020, 02:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-15-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The deaths are heavily American. It is our problem now. Some State governors did a good job of meeting the disease, but our President got in the way. China closed off the afflicted area, but Trump made the response largely a state option. The private sector, both for-profit and not-for profit (in the latter, such includes the Roman Catholic Church and mainline Protestant denominations) met their tasks well. The NHL and NBA ended their seasons early. Lessons from other countries were good warnings. Religious processions were particularly infamous for spreading the virus because those often attract sick people. Such explains Italy and Iran... it is telling that Saudi Arabia cancelled the Hajj. 

There have been spreader events such as some megachurch services in which the hack pastor tells people that God is enough to save people from the virus, protests against the lockdowns, funerals, and even a Trump rally (most infamously in Tulsa. Herman Cain got infected there and eventually died). Most recent of dumb events to attend was the big motorcycle rally in Sturgis, South Dakota. You can be sure that there will be nothing of the kind in Sturgis, Michigan, which typically has events that piggyback on that one. Let's put it this way... if you will be in the market for a good late-model Harley-Davidson motorcycle in a few months, plenty will be available at unusually modest prices because their owners went to the big motorcycle convention. Worse, they will have transmitted COVID-19 to people who had nothing to do with the big motorcycle rally.  

It's well past time to blame the People's Republic of China. We were doing much wrong before COVID-19 struck, fostering an economic order that seems to maximize economic inequality on behalf of elites as arrogant as feudal lords of the late-medieval and early-modern era authorizing news media to sell out to commercial interests while pretending to be objective purveyors of information, debasing public K-12 education into training for dead-end jobs in which seemingly only people with borderline retardation could be happy. The super-rich seemingly have no responsibility unless they kill (Phil Specter) or rape (Weinstein, Epstein, and Cosby, which is not a law firm), and the rest of us are responsible to the super-rich. 

We were told that the key to prosperity was that if we would suffer for the elites through lower wages, higher rents, more monopolization, easier availability of propaganda on behalf of pure plutocracy, and support of the political lackeys of the Master Class, then we too would prosper. If Robert Heinlein related that the proper image of the Soviet Union was of a drunk, the proper image of America might now be a homeless person. A trend that began about forty years ago has reached its preposterous conclusion -- and great tragedy.

We aren't like China or the European nations or the other Asian nations or the Latino and Hispanic nations or the Middle Eastern nations. You seem to be upset that Trump stuck with the American way and delegated authority to the states vs the Chinese way. Once again, you tell me your not communist but show me that you're open to the communist way when at risk. Well, we're different than you. We prefer the American way and are willing to accept risk and accept some losses to keep Americans working and keep the American system functioning as Democrats do what Democrats do during election years which is mainly placing their needs above everyone else's and not caring about people who don't support them politically. Well, they're shooting themselves in foot without knowing/realizing their shooting themselves in the foot.

A President has great power to enforce public policy on clear and present dangers. COVID-19 may not quite be at the same level of clear and present danger as nuke-bearing ICBM's in a sneak attack, but a more decisive response was due. The money-grubbing NBA and NHL curtailed highly-profitable seasons, which should have been an indicator of the perception of danger. 

170,000 losses is a huge quantity for keeping an economy moving. We ordinarily have a huge toll of death from vehicle collisions (many with pedestrians), and we have done much to reduce that by re-engineering roads, mandating safety features on cars, and enforcing traffic laws. The "cat at the mouse-hole" approach to speeding  is obvious to a non-speeder, barely visible to someone at the speed limit, and not at all visible to the speeder... but the cop sees the speeder. I've seen it at work. I have also noticed rigid police presence at drinking places. The local cops have stars for DUI busts in my town.  I have seen state troopers at the state line greeting people with a radar gun on holidays... a trooper is up ahead a few miles ready to make a stop. Some states have red-light cameras.   

If the deaths from COVID-19 were war deaths, then they would involve the third-worst death toll involving Americans from war, behind only the American Civil War and World War II. Generals getting such a toll in combat while getting at best a costly stalemate would be cashiered. OK, it is a respiratory infection and not a shooting war... but people are dead nonetheless. 

If I were President I would treat COVID-19 with all the seriousness of a war. I would be calling upon Congress to raise the federal gas tax for the duration, but allow it to be rebated to people who can show that their travel is essential. That would keep people in compliance with stay-at-home orders. I would be promoting contests for the best anti-COVID-19 posters and videos. I would seek to have people hate that virus like Americans hated Hitler, Tojo, and Mussolini in the last war... and more recently Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. Hey -- it's a virus! I would be pushing video-conferencing and culture. 

It is a bad time, but one of the most important skills anyone can learn is the knack for making the best out of a bad situation. Maybe this is the best chance that you will ever have of reading Moby Dick... and maybe you can take up some craft that you thought you might be good at. 

I certainly would defer to the experts in medicine and public health. Figure that some people have specialized training that I lack. Donald Trump has the Dunning-Kruger effect, the dangerous position that with a little knowledge he thinks that he knows more than do the experts. As Lincoln said about all the armchair strategists during the Civil War, that if American generals could be as good as that, then the war would already be over. Anyone (let us say a six-year-old great-niece of "Father Abram") can make a firm, resolute gesture suggesting a troop movement on a map. It's obviously not that simple other than in over-simplified retrospect. 

I would laud free-market solutions to getting compliance. I am surprised that funeral homes did not offer masks that say such things as 

MASK IT OR CASKET

Smith-Jones Funeral Home
Indianola, Texas (zip code)

(512) 555-DEAD

(Indianola, Texas is a ghost town)

I would set an example. I would go out with a face mask if at all. I would not be holding political rallies at which the virus could spread. If stopping a deadly virus isn't worth losing an election about, then what is?

Is it a clear and present threat to all or just a portion of the population that everyone already knows about and has been aware for many months?

Not so long ago I saw lots of people in grocery stores in my community failing to wear masks. It was so blatant that I thanked fellow customers for wearing masks. That is no longer necessary because some stores have someone making sure that people wear masks. Big Business, of all people, is far ahead of Donald Trump at that. 

Yes, COVID-19 is dangerous. I see it on par with drunk driving, driving over 100 mph on 'open' roads, doing violent crime, breaking into a house full of dogs, having unprotected sex with strangers, using street drugs, failing to heed warning signs, or taking chances with rattlesnakes. A 5% death rate? Not much is worth that. 

OK, people still drive drunk, speed, do violent crime, have reckless sex, do drugs, commit burglary (dogs have much in common with animals infamous for man-eating)  neglect warnings, and even handle rattlesnakes.

I suppose part of freedom includes the freedom to do things utterly stupid unless such hurts people.       

Quote:Has the most vulnerable age group and most common diseases and other preexisting health conditions changed significantly the last six months or remained relatively constant.

Is one age group more precious than another? Is an arsonist who sets a house fire that causes smoke inhalation that wouldn't kill someone else but kills someone with emphysema still a murderer? Ordinarily, respiratory infections rarely kill people in advanced industrial societies or people of privilege in others unless someone is already in danger of death from something else (pneumonia is often the definitive killer of people with cancer, congestive heart failure, senile dementia, or cirrhosis of the liver) -- but SARS-2 breaks that rule as COVID-19.   

Quote:I don't know way the Democrats are waging a constant terror campaign and causing all kinds of emotional problems for its viewers and stressing loses that are significantly below the projection and expectations based on all the hype and everything we've been through and sacrificed or lost this year. Was it really worth it and is half the people who vote worth keeping?

The first step to democide is to determine that some people are expendable. Heretics, Jews, kulaks... sure, we can expect a predictable rate of vehicle-related death per mile driven, a certain amount of death associated with such dangerous work as mining, logging, animal husbandry, construction, metallurgy, and commercial fishing... but we need those activities. We do not need COVID-19! 

Quote:It's pretty clear that the blue bubble and the blue information barrier is hard if not impossible to penetrate which is sad and getting dangerous in my opinion.

Sure, I am in a bubble -- one that readily detects propaganda, animus, superstition, and pseudoscience and finds it easy to reject.

Quote:I hate to say this but every Democrat that I seen on one of your news channels deserve to die because all I saw was a bunch of pieces of shit who place their party and their paychecks above their country.

I hate to say this, but you are beginning to sound like a Stalinist who sees anyone who dissents with your chosen orthodoxy as deserving to die, perhaps through overwork on starvation rations under life-threatening conditions.  

Quote:Now, you may end up homeless and begging for food because of them and I'm sorry if that happens but it wasn't because I tried to warn you about them.

As if anyone has cause to trust the Hard Right with Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. 

Quote:As far as them, they're going to end up losing everything just like the last group of Democrats who (expletive deleted) and started a Civil War with the American people.

Mirror-image Marxists like you are the people most likely to be swept into the dustbin of history.

(08-16-2020, 11:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Is one age group more precious than another? Is an arsonist who sets a house fire that causes smoke inhalation that wouldn't kill someone else but kills someone with emphysema still a murderer? Ordinarily, respiratory infections rarely kill people in advanced industrial societies or people of privilege in others unless someone is already in danger of death from something else (pneumonia is often the definitive killer of people with cancer, congestive heart failure, senile dementia, or cirrhosis of the liver) -- but SARS-2 breaks that rule as COVID-19.   

Sure, I am in a bubble -- one that readily detects propaganda, animus, superstition, and pseudoscience and finds it easy to reject.

Mirror-image Marxists like you are the people most likely to be swept into the dustbin of history.

I don't know Precious, you tell me, is one group "primarily your older group of Liberal voters" viewed as more precious by the other American groups these days. Keep in mind, we aren't your mass  media elites and one their main employees or one of your politicians or some bureaucrat who is somehow or another related to one your politicians or one of their family members or on of your internet junkies or your imbeciles on Facebook, YouTube and Twitter or the ones who care about who wins the Oscars or which movie wins Best Picture and so forth. In short, I hope your governor has made the necessary adjustments for living in a world with COVID19 while she was busy self promoting showing off and strutting her stuff for the owners of the Democratic big leagues (DNC). Dude, you are so ignorant it's unbelievable. All I can do is tell you that I'm sorry about whatever happens to you in advance.

(08-16-2020, 01:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-16-2020, 11:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Is one age group more precious than another? Is an arsonist who sets a house fire that causes smoke inhalation that wouldn't kill someone else but kills someone with emphysema still a murderer? Ordinarily, respiratory infections rarely kill people in advanced industrial societies or people of privilege in others unless someone is already in danger of death from something else (pneumonia is often the definitive killer of people with cancer, congestive heart failure, senile dementia, or cirrhosis of the liver) -- but SARS-2 breaks that rule as COVID-19.   

Sure, I am in a bubble -- one that readily detects propaganda, animus, superstition, and pseudoscience and finds it easy to reject.

Mirror-image Marxists like you are the people most likely to be swept into the dustbin of history.

I don't know Precious, you tell me, is one group "primarily your older group of Liberal voters" viewed as more precious by the other American groups these days. Keep in mind, we aren't your mass  media elites and one their main employees or one of your politicians or some bureaucrat who is somehow or another related to one your politicians or one of their family members or on of your internet junkies or your imbeciles on Facebook, YouTube and Twitter or the ones who care about who wins the Oscars or which movie wins Best Picture and so forth. In short, I hope your governor has made the necessary adjustments for living in a world with COVID19 while she was busy self promoting showing off and strutting her stuff for the owners of the Democratic big leagues (DNC). Dude, you are so ignorant it's unbelievable. All I can do is tell you that I'm sorry about whatever happens to you in advance.

Some governors are supporting isolation by the numbers, the science, valuing lives over dollars, and are primarily but not exclusively Democratic. Cuomo of New York seems to be the loudest amount them. These are fairly popular. Less popular are those who are following Trump’s happy talk approach.

This difference in popularity reflects the values of more Americans. Most value lives over dollars. This is not true of all. Many of the elite have enough money to isolate and don’t care about those who do not.

That is why I am not worried too much about violence. The rural militias have always accepted election results, even when the first black president was elected. Seeing Trump make a mockery of their values, they want to get rid of him and his enablers in the senate. They may regret that this puts someone blue in charge, but they will do what they have to do to save lives.

I could respect a conservative opposition if they could get rid of any elitist or racist taint. It may happen in the near future, or it may not. The Tea Party was beginning to reject the elitist tendencies, but latched on to the biggest alligator in the swamp. I hope the Republican base gets enamored of someone who is against both the elitist and racist tendency. I am a little confused that you do not agree, that you are enamored still with the elitist and racist Trump.

I see a big struggle coming after the election to pick up the conservative vote. Neither the racists nor the elites are going away lightly, but both factions have been badly discredited by Trump. Can something honorable come out on top? Not my fight, but I will be watching.

(08-16-2020, 02:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]You and Trump ignore the science.  I admit I am assuming that lives of any color matter.  If you assume massive death is cool, you can ignore the science.  

Do lives matter to you?

Who is bringing up color now? Does everything have to center on race with you guys? HERE YOU ARE DESTROYING A CLASS THAT IS NO LONGER VIEWED AS LOYAL AND YOU'RE FOCUSED ON RACE AS USUAL. I don't think massive death is cool, but I was prepared to accept death as a possibility and prepared to live with people dying from COVID19 (an unknown virus from China that got here mainly from Europe) for quite a while as unknown virus's are identified and studied and as tests of various treatments on hand and new vaccines were being developed as fast as they can while maintaining a high level integrity throughout the process. We don't want a vaccine that doesn't work.

Death probably matters more to you than anything else at this point of your life. I understand that there is hell of a lot of stuff that's more to life than sitting around being scared about dying from COVID19 or being permanently harmed by COVID19 these days. Bob, do you want to die and do you believe that the other half of the country cares if you and the Democrats die these days? I care about some Democrats but I don't care about all of them. Right now, there is communication going on between us and our President that the blue twits in the media aren't aware of because they don't care to listen.

(08-16-2020, 02:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-16-2020, 02:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]You and Trump ignore the science.  I admit I am assuming that lives of any color matter.  If you assume massive death is cool, you can ignore the science.  

Do lives matter to you?

Who is bringing up color now? Does everything have to center on race with you guys? HERE YOU ARE DESTROYING A CLASS THAT IS NO LONGER VIEWED AS LOYAL AND YOU'RE FOCUSED ON RACE AS USUAL. I don't think massive death is cool, but I was prepared to accept death as a possibility and prepared to live with people dying from COVID19 (an unknown virus from China that got here mainly from Europe) for quite a while as unknown virus's are identified and studied and as tests of various treatments on hand and new vaccines were being developed as fast as they can while maintaining a high level integrity throughout the process. We don't want a vaccine that doesn't work.

Death probably matters more to you than anything else at this point of your life. I understand that there is hell of a lot of stuff that's more to life than sitting around being scared about dying from COVID19 or being permanently harmed by COVID19 these days. Bob, do you want to die and do you believe that the other half of the country cares if you and the Democrats die these days? I care about some Democrats but I don't care about all of them. Right now, there is communication going on between us and our President that the blue twits in the media aren't aware of because they don't care to listen.

Buried in all that distraction is that you don't seem to care about lives. That puts you as having different values from most Americans. This sort of disqualifies you from pretending to speak for Americans.

If you are willing to see people die, then you are not really ignoring the science. You just have a different set of values not consistent with what science allows us to do.

YouTube as a piece up saying that some states have laws against slowing down the mail and are about to file charges against Trump and his postmaster.  This meshes with my daydream of a few days ago.

(08-16-2020, 02:21 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Some governors are supporting isolation by the numbers, the science, valuing lives over dollars, and are primarily but not exclusively Democratic.  Cuomo of New York seems to be the loudest amount them.  These are fairly popular.  Less popular are those who are following Trump’s happy talk approach.

This difference in popularity reflects the values of more Americans.  Most value lives over dollars.  This is not true of all.  Many of the elite have enough money to isolate and don’t care about those who do not.

That is why I am not worried too much about violence.  The rural militias have always accepted election results, even when the first black president was elected.  Seeing Trump make a mockery of their values, they want to get rid of him and his enablers in the senate.  They may regret that this puts someone blue in charge, but they will do what they have to do to save lives.

I could respect a conservative opposition if they could get rid of any elitist or racist taint.  It may happen in the near future, or it may not.  The Tea Party was beginning to reject the elitist tendencies, but latched on to the biggest alligator in the swamp.  I hope the Republican base gets enamored of someone who is against both the elitist and racist tendency.  I am a little confused that you do not agree, that you are enamored still with the elitist and racist Trump.

I see a big struggle coming after the election to pick up the conservative vote.  Neither the racists nor the elites are going away lightly, but both factions have been badly discredited by Trump.  Can something honorable come out on top?  Not my fight, but I will be watching.

Yep. We have some governors and a portion of legislators and law enforcement officials who are currently employed and receiving regular paychecks and campaign contributions who are placing the lives of people who should already be isolated and protected as much as humanly possible, knowing what we all pretty much know about COVID19 these days and completely ignoring the needs of the private sector and private citizens and working classes which represent the bunk of their present day and future tax base that won't be sticking around for the aftermath afterwards. Personally, I don't really care if you glue yourself to Rachel or Cuomo and old Biden and the 1 percent's choice for his replacement or choose to only listen or unfortunately being stuck listening to whatever expert or political operative they pay to come on their show to tell you what you want to hear and continue to believe in them. You're a big boy Bob and I'm not your parent.

(08-16-2020, 03:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-16-2020, 02:21 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Some governors are supporting isolation by the numbers, the science, valuing lives over dollars, and are primarily but not exclusively Democratic.  Cuomo of New York seems to be the loudest amount them.  These are fairly popular.  Less popular are those who are following Trump’s happy talk approach.

This difference in popularity reflects the values of more Americans.  Most value lives over dollars.  This is not true of all.  Many of the elite have enough money to isolate and don’t care about those who do not.

That is why I am not worried too much about violence.  The rural militias have always accepted election results, even when the first black president was elected.  Seeing Trump make a mockery of their values, they want to get rid of him and his enablers in the senate.  They may regret that this puts someone blue in charge, but they will do what they have to do to save lives.

I could respect a conservative opposition if they could get rid of any elitist or racist taint.  It may happen in the near future, or it may not.  The Tea Party was beginning to reject the elitist tendencies, but latched on to the biggest alligator in the swamp.  I hope the Republican base gets enamored of someone who is against both the elitist and racist tendency.  I am a little confused that you do not agree, that you are enamored still with the elitist and racist Trump.

I see a big struggle coming after the election to pick up the conservative vote.  Neither the racists nor the elites are going away lightly, but both factions have been badly discredited by Trump.  Can something honorable come out on top?  Not my fight, but I will be watching.

Yep. We have some governors and a portion of legislators and law enforcement officials  who are currently employed and receiving regular paychecks and campaign contributions who are placing the lives of people who should already be isolated and protected as much as humanly possible, knowing what we all pretty much know about COVID19 these days and completely ignoring the needs of the private sector and private citizens and working classes which represent the bunk of their present day and future tax base that won't be sticking around for the aftermath afterwards. Personally, I don't really care if you glue yourself to Rachel or Cuomo and old Biden and the 1 percent's choice for his replacement or choose to only listen or unfortunately being stuck listening to whatever expert or political operative they pay to come on their show to tell you what you want to hear and continue to believe in them. You're a big boy Bob and I'm not your parent.

It used to be back in the early days of the bug there was a disagreement between those who values lives and those who valued the economy.  That tended to fade.  The models showed opening up the economy without first solving the health problem showed more death.  The smart people came to favor a short intense isolation followed by testing and tracing, as many foreign democracies did.  The happy talk people preferred to open up the economy while the curve was still going up.  The models predicted that would create a disaster, and sure enough a disaster came.

So your talking as if this is a viable option seems quite silly.

But I guess if you are into violence, racism, death, elitism, narcissism and lying, your values are just not mine.  They are also just not American.  Your pretense that Americans share your values are distinctly wrong.

At any rate, I anticipate we will see in November.

(08-16-2020, 02:21 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-16-2020, 01:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-16-2020, 11:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Is one age group more precious than another? Is an arsonist who sets a house fire that causes smoke inhalation that wouldn't kill someone else but kills someone with emphysema still a murderer? Ordinarily, respiratory infections rarely kill people in advanced industrial societies or people of privilege in others unless someone is already in danger of death from something else (pneumonia is often the definitive killer of people with cancer, congestive heart failure, senile dementia, or cirrhosis of the liver) -- but SARS-2 breaks that rule as COVID-19.   

Sure, I am in a bubble -- one that readily detects propaganda, animus, superstition, and pseudoscience and finds it easy to reject.

Mirror-image Marxists like you are the people most likely to be swept into the dustbin of history.

I don't know Precious, you tell me, is one group "primarily your older group of Liberal voters" viewed as more precious by the other American groups these days. Keep in mind, we aren't your mass  media elites and one their main employees or one of your politicians or some bureaucrat who is somehow or another related to one your politicians or one of their family members or on of your internet junkies or your imbeciles on Facebook, YouTube and Twitter or the ones who care about who wins the Oscars or which movie wins Best Picture and so forth. In short, I hope your governor has made the necessary adjustments for living in a world with COVID19 while she was busy self promoting showing off and strutting her stuff for the owners of the Democratic big leagues (DNC). Dude, you are so ignorant it's unbelievable. All I can do is tell you that I'm sorry about whatever happens to you in advance.

Some governors are supporting isolation by the numbers, the science, valuing lives over dollars, and are primarily but not exclusively Democratic.  Cuomo of New York seems to be the loudest amount them.  These are fairly popular.  Less popular are those who are following Trump’s happy talk approach.

The ones who follow Trump risk being hated for the results. Eventually they will face the electorate, and they may face some losses that nobody could foresee before 2020. 

Quote:This difference in popularity reflects the values of more Americans.  Most value lives over dollars.  This is not true of all.  Many of the elite have enough money to isolate and don’t care about those who do not.

People had better put lives over money! In a state with capital punishment, armed robberies that culminate in murder are the most effective ways in which to go to the death chamber. In civil cases, wrongful death cases lead to monster settlements. I have no problem with that priority. 

Quote:That is why I am not worried too much about violence.  The rural militias have always accepted election results, even when the first black president was elected.  Seeing Trump make a mockery of their values, they want to get rid of him and his enablers in the senate.  They may regret that this puts someone blue in charge, but they will do what they have to do to save lives.

Even the most reactionary people in rural areas typically know someone who can talk them out of violence. Rural America is generally not tolerant of violence, although there are racist compounds such as Elohim City, Oklahoma in which violent, racist cults flourish. Add to this, Donald Trump is practically the stereotype of an obnoxious city-slicker. Trump got away with his shtick in 2016, but he won't get away with it in 2020. 

Quote:I could respect a conservative opposition if they could get rid of any elitist or racist taint.  It may happen in the near future, or it may not.  The Tea Party was beginning to reject the elitist tendencies, but latched on to the biggest alligator in the swamp.  I hope the Republican base gets enamored of someone who is against both the elitist and racist tendency.  I am a little confused that you do not agree, that you are enamored still with the elitist and racist Trump.

I expect any conservative Republican to go back quickly to a firm assertion of the primacy of capital over all else. Trump succeeded in part by his ostensible expressions of disdain for elites by showing extreme vulgarity. I expect the same agenda of tax cuts, regulatory relief, privatization, and dismantling of labor unions. Such conservatives may seek to win over members of minority groups who have seen Trump as a potential menace as well as a cultural insult.   

Quote:I see a big struggle coming after the election to pick up the conservative vote.  Neither the racists nor the elites are going away lightly, but both factions have been badly discredited by Trump.  Can something honorable come out on top?  Not my fight, but I will be watching.

It is obviously too early to tell. Maybe they will recognize that wars for profit may easily to the destruction of their assets and that racism is incompatible with a desire to attract successful non-WASP types on such issues as restraining government, cutting taxes, and relaxing regulation.

(08-16-2020, 09:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]It used to be back in the early days of the bug there was a disagreement between those who values lives and those who valued the economy.  That tended to fade.  The models showed opening up the economy without first solving the health problem showed more death.  The smart people came to favor a short intent isolation followed by testing and tracing, as many foreign democracies did.  The happy talk people preferred to open up the economy while the curve was still going up.  The models predicted that would create a disaster, and sure enough a disaster came.

So your talking as if this is a viable option seems quite silly.

But I guess if you are into violence, racism, death, elitism, narcissism and lying, your values are just not mine.  They are also just not American.  Your pretense that Americans share your values are distinctly wrong.

At any rate, I anticipate we will see in November.

Bob, the vast majority (98-99%) are going to survive the COVID19 crisis. It's silly at this point and it's going to be quite costly for the Democratic states that are still playing games with peoples lives and causing more harm than good at this point. The Democratic consensus seems to be buckle down, hurt Trump as much as they can and force their people to put their lives on hold and wait for a cure. Well, that's fine for Democratic controlled areas but that's not going to fly with the Republican run areas.

I see violence on your side. I see racism on your side today. I see elitism on your side today. I see narcissism on your side and way more lying on your side today. Unlike you, I do watch some of your channels. The Republicans aren't saints but they're not nearly as bad or out of touch with reality. I think its pretty clear that red and blue values no longer match which isn't good for countries because values have to match for countries to remain together.

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bob, the vast majority (98-99%) are going to survive the COVID19 crisis. It's silly at this point and it's going to be quite costly for the Democratic states that are still playing games with peoples lives and causing more harm than good at this point. The Democratic consensus seems to be buckle down, hurt Trump as much as they can and force their people to put their lives on hold and wait for a cure. Well, that's fine for Democratic controlled areas but that's not going to fly with the Republican run areas.

What happens is that in order to prevent the hospitals from collapsing, even the happy talk governors have to give in to the people and isolate.  Happy talk kills a bunch of people keeps the economy shut down for an extended period.

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I see violence on your side. I see racism on your side today. I see elitism on your side today. I see narcissism on your side and way more lying on your side today. Unlike you, I do watch some of your channels. The Republicans aren't saints but they're not nearly as bad or out of touch with reality. I think its pretty clear that red and blue values no longer match which isn't good for countries because values have to match or countries split apart.

Or a 4T comes along and the old values go kaput.  I can point out several cases of the old values collapsing in recent S&H crisis.  

It is harder to find countries splitting apart.  Germany was split by external force.  The Middle East was partitioned by the West in the colonial era, and are reverting to their old tribal or religious borders.  Can you give me an example of a nation with distinctly different values splitting?  

Try Great Britain.  They may be splitting apart, but it is along regional boundaries that reflect separate kingdoms once upon a time and still have governments which hold a trace of independence.   I suppose we have states which fragments it even more, but we seem to change to the new values and move on rather than let the old values fester.

CNN has a report on how New Zealand is delaying their elections... as a result of an awful outbreak of 12 cases?  This begins to show the differences between the US and the sane countries.  Parliament systems have varied election schedules anyway so trying to delay elections is not as big a deal.  There is also no doubt the elections are being delayed to save lives rather than let some faction cling to power.

But still.  12 cases?  Quite a difference between the sane response and what the US is doing.

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-16-2020, 09:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]It used to be back in the early days of the bug there was a disagreement between those who values lives and those who valued the economy.  That tended to fade.  The models showed opening up the economy without first solving the health problem showed more death.  The smart people came to favor a short intent isolation followed by testing and tracing, as many foreign democracies did.  The happy talk people preferred to open up the economy while the curve was still going up.  The models predicted that would create a disaster, and sure enough a disaster came.

So your talking as if this is a viable option seems quite silly.

But I guess if you are into violence, racism, death, elitism, narcissism and lying, your values are just not mine.  They are also just not American.  Your pretense that Americans share your values are distinctly wrong.

At any rate, I anticipate we will see in November.

Bob, the vast majority (98-99%) are going to survive the COVID19 crisis. It's silly at this point and it's going to be quite costly for the Democratic states that are still playing games with peoples lives and causing more harm than good at this point. The Democratic consensus seems to be buckle down, hurt Trump as much as they can and force their people to put their lives on hold and wait for a cure. Well, that's fine for Democratic controlled areas but that's not going to fly with the Republican run areas.

Hurt Trump? If he didn't want his feelings hurt, then maybe he shouldn't have run for President. I'm sorry. With the Presidency comes huge responsibilities for the welfare of more than  300 million people. What the President feels matters far less than whether we are in a pointless war or not, whether the economy is going strong or is tanking, whether the international scene is becoming safer or more ominous, and, all in all, whether our personal lives are getting better than they otherwise might be. 

We Democrats are not playing with lives. Trump has done so, and that has been an unmitigated disaster. Over 170,000 Americans have died of something that should have been suppressed early. 

Oh, by the way -- if we had a motor-vehicle death rate as high as the death rate from COVID-19, then we would be doing something about it --  like reducing speed limits, reducing the legal level of BAC to zero, rushing computer control of cars, reviving the passenger rail industry, or banning night-time driving.       

Quote:I see violence on your side. I see racism on your side today. I see elitism on your side today. I see narcissism on your side and way more lying on your side today. Unlike you, I do watch some of your channels. The Republicans aren't saints but they're not nearly as bad or out of touch with reality. I think its pretty clear that red and blue values no longer match which isn't good for countries because values have to match for countries to remain together.

I see psychological projection in you. One bank robber once rationalized his armed robberies of banks by saying that banks are the biggest crooks of all. Or another example: the Nazis accused the Jews of an insidious plot to take over the world and exploit gentiles... and then started a war of conquest that had the subjection of non-Germans as an objective. 

You have some problems. I suggest that you get competent help with your violent thoughts before those lead you into doing great harm to others and ultimately bring financial ruin to your loved ones. I can assure you -- it is not as scary as you think.

(08-17-2020, 01:14 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bob, the vast majority (98-99%) are going to survive the COVID19 crisis. It's silly at this point and it's going to be quite costly for the Democratic states that are still playing games with peoples lives and causing more harm than good at this point. The Democratic consensus seems to be buckle down, hurt Trump as much as they can and force their people to put their lives on hold and wait for a cure. Well, that's fine for Democratic controlled areas but that's not going to fly with the Republican run areas.

What happens is that in order to prevent the hospitals from collapsing, even the happy talk governors have to give in to the people and isolate.  Happy talk kills a bunch of people keeps the economy shut down for an extended period.

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I see violence on your side. I see racism on your side today. I see elitism on your side today. I see narcissism on your side and way more lying on your side today. Unlike you, I do watch some of your channels. The Republicans aren't saints but they're not nearly as bad or out of touch with reality. I think its pretty clear that red and blue values no longer match which isn't good for countries because values have to match or countries split apart.

Or a 4T comes along and the old values go kaput.  I can point out several cases of the old values collapsing in recent S&H crisis.  

It is harder to find countries splitting apart.  Germany was split by external force.  The Middle East was partitioned by the West in the colonial era, and are reverting to their old tribal or religious borders.  Can you give me an example of a nation with distinctly different values splitting?  

Try Great Britain.  They may be splitting apart, but it is along regional boundaries that reflect separate kingdoms once upon a time and still have governments which hold a trace of independence.   I suppose we have states which fragments it even more, but we seem to change to the new values and move on rather than let the old values fester.

Bob, a significant portion of the Democratic party has no values where as the Republican side has values. People who share our values don't let gangs/mobs wreak havoc and destroy property and let their show hosts insult half the nation on a daily basis. I keep telling you to knock it off because the whole race thing and people not giving a shit about you people is going to eventually blow up in your faces. We don't give a shut about the Liberal's Bob and I doubt the minorities give a shit about you either. I guess you and every other white liberal are kind of *bad word*. It must suck being associated with a race that doesn't refer to each other as brothers and sisters unless directly related or we highly respect one another.

(08-17-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-17-2020, 01:14 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bob, the vast majority (98-99%) are going to survive the COVID19 crisis. It's silly at this point and it's going to be quite costly for the Democratic states that are still playing games with peoples lives and causing more harm than good at this point. The Democratic consensus seems to be buckle down, hurt Trump as much as they can and force their people to put their lives on hold and wait for a cure. Well, that's fine for Democratic controlled areas but that's not going to fly with the Republican run areas.

What happens is that in order to prevent the hospitals from collapsing, even the happy talk governors have to give in to the people and isolate.  Happy talk kills a bunch of people keeps the economy shut down for an extended period.

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I see violence on your side. I see racism on your side today. I see elitism on your side today. I see narcissism on your side and way more lying on your side today. Unlike you, I do watch some of your channels. The Republicans aren't saints but they're not nearly as bad or out of touch with reality. I think its pretty clear that red and blue values no longer match which isn't good for countries because values have to match or countries split apart.

Or a 4T comes along and the old values go kaput.  I can point out several cases of the old values collapsing in recent S&H crisis.  

It is harder to find countries splitting apart.  Germany was split by external force.  The Middle East was partitioned by the West in the colonial era, and are reverting to their old tribal or religious borders.  Can you give me an example of a nation with distinctly different values splitting?  

Try Great Britain.  They may be splitting apart, but it is along regional boundaries that reflect separate kingdoms once upon a time and still have governments which hold a trace of independence.   I suppose we have states which fragments it even more, but we seem to change to the new values and move on rather than let the old values fester.

Bob, a significant portion of the Democratic party has no values where as the Republican side has values. People who share our values don't let gangs/mobs wreak havoc and destroy property and let their show hosts insult half the nation on a daily basis. I keep telling you to knock it off because the whole race thing and people not giving a shit about you people is going to eventually blow up in your faces. We don't give a shit about the Liberals Bob and I doubt the minorities give a shit about you either. I guess you and every other white liberal are kind of *bad word*. It must suck being associated with a race that doesn't refer to each other as brothers and sisters unless directly related or we highly respect one another.

The show hosts are showing great command of values by contrasting them with the no-values Trump. He deserves as much lampooning as can be made, and it's a great meal ticket for them because he supplies so much material. I mean Classic, this is pure capitalism. The late night comics and show hosts are just capitalizing on what is being so abundantly provided for them. If you guys can't stand the humor, take your guy out of the big white house! Someone more boring and less uncouth, but just as evil, such as Tom Cotton, may not provide as much fuel for the comics next time.

I don't think anyone is letting people wreak havoc. That may happen here and there, but it's not because Democrats let it happen. It just your slogan, so you keep using it.

Giving a shit about racial equality and proper treatment of people regardless of race is part of real Democrats' and progressives' DNA. You can't expect them not to be interested in it. 

I guess there is some grounds for concern about single-issue SJWs, and I imagine the pressure will be on in 2024 to support Harris for president even though she is a weak candidate, and even though it may so happen that a white guy will be better that time around. A black guy was better in 2008, and so to decide who is best only on grounds of race will be counterproductive for Democrats. 

Classic charges that the Democrats are racists because they think race is an issue. There might be a grain of truth in his statement, if those who prefer a white guy over a black woman for president in 2024 are labelled racist. In 2024 I will prefer the white guy, because Harris has a 4-16 horoscope score (as opposed for example to Obama's 19-2 or Landrieu's 16-2) and I would have to predict a loss if she were nominated. She demonstrated her score by how thoroughly her solo campaign failed. She did not wear well as a speaker, and her audiences dwindled.

Racial justice is not the only issue the people face, but some Democrats might be reversely racist to the extent that they charge that we must support non-whites most of the time regardless of qualification or candidate viability. That does not mean that Democrats should not make every effort to see that more non-whites (and women) are given more political and economic power and allowed to gain more wealth in the USA, given the huge gap that still exists in these fields between white and black.

(08-17-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bob, a significant portion of the Democratic party has no values where as the Republican side has values. People who share our values don't let gangs/mobs wreak havoc and destroy property and let their show hosts insult half the nation on a daily basis. I keep telling you to knock it off because the whole race thing and people not giving a shit about you people is going to eventually blow up in your faces. We don't give a shut about the Liberal's Bob and I doubt the minorities give a shit about you either. I guess you and every other white liberal are kind of *bad word*. It must suck being associated with a race that doesn't refer to each other as brothers and sisters unless directly related or we highly respect one another.

Can’t find a better example?  Changing the subject again when your prior argument goes nowhere?

On the streets, many groups have many motives.  We have the the secret police, the racist violent police, the police, Black Lives Matter, the Boogaloo Bois, and the looters.  You seem to be confused as to their motives, and certainly scramble their motives around.  You can pretend the KKK, Neo nazi and Antifa matter, but those are pre trigger.  They have essentially disappeared since black lives matter took off.  I am almost tempted to put the secret police into the don’t exist anymore category too.  Trump was into his instigate violence behavior for a while, but that backfired into making his campaign crash harder.  He hasn’t been trying to instigate violence lately.

You claim there are vigilantes like you, but I have heard no reports of them.  They are not a factor, nor are the rural militias a factor.

Nothing.  Nada.  No shows.  With your obsession with violence you try to make us believe your daydreams are real, but they are just daydreams for the moment.  The are one ideologue’s empty whim.

I would worry about the groups that are actually there.

Now all of these groups, at least those that still exist, have world views and values.  Your instance that people exist with no values show you don’t know people.  People have values.  They may vary a lot, and do.  Some are well thought out, some are not.  They still have values.

The Boogaloo Boys and the looters do exist.  I think the police can handle them.  But they are in the minority.  They are not a real threat.

There are far more Democrats, believing in democracy, human rights and equality.  Those are one set of traditional American values.  They are hardly the only values, but the dominant ones which matter.  They are in opposition to the elites and racists which are traditionally associated with the conservatives.  The conservatives seem to have a choice to make wheather to go down with the elites and racists.  You seem to have made your choice.  I think it is the wrong one.  We will see what the bulk of the conservatives choose.  I don’t see it particularly as my fight.

But I suspect most conservatives will be wiser than you.

(08-17-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-17-2020, 01:14 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bob, the vast majority (98-99%) are going to survive the COVID19 crisis. It's silly at this point and it's going to be quite costly for the Democratic states that are still playing games with peoples lives and causing more harm than good at this point. The Democratic consensus seems to be buckle down, hurt Trump as much as they can and force their people to put their lives on hold and wait for a cure. Well, that's fine for Democratic controlled areas but that's not going to fly with the Republican run areas.

What happens is that in order to prevent the hospitals from collapsing, even the happy talk governors have to give in to the people and isolate.  Happy talk kills a bunch of people keeps the economy shut down for an extended period.

(08-17-2020, 12:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I see violence on your side. I see racism on your side today. I see elitism on your side today. I see narcissism on your side and way more lying on your side today. Unlike you, I do watch some of your channels. The Republicans aren't saints but they're not nearly as bad or out of touch with reality. I think its pretty clear that red and blue values no longer match which isn't good for countries because values have to match or countries split apart.

Or a 4T comes along and the old values go kaput.  I can point out several cases of the old values collapsing in recent S&H crisis.  

It is harder to find countries splitting apart.  Germany was split by external force.  The Middle East was partitioned by the West in the colonial era, and are reverting to their old tribal or religious borders.  Can you give me an example of a nation with distinctly different values splitting?  

Try Great Britain.  They may be splitting apart, but it is along regional boundaries that reflect separate kingdoms once upon a time and still have governments which hold a trace of independence.   I suppose we have states which fragments it even more, but we seem to change to the new values and move on rather than let the old values fester.

Bob, a significant portion of the Democratic party has no values where as the Republican side has values.

Everyone has values. Those values may be disgusting, but they are values. Commies had the dream of building a state more responsive to the needs of the worker than a capitalist-driven state could. The Commies failed because they saw a market as a tool of oppression instead of as a control against waste and inefficiency and never considered that bureaucratic elites who managed without owning could be as oppressive and exploitative (just look at American executives) as aristocrats and tycoons from which the Marxists 'freed' the proletariat. That's before I discuss the body count. Fascists clearly believed in national pride, at least within their own nation -- but failed to recognize the legitimacy of national pride of their victims. 

We liberals recognize that as time passes, perceptions of reality change... and so do we. We have gone along with progress from rejecting the divine right of kings to recognizing same-sex rights. We have generally proved right. Your side cares only, it seems, for class privilege and the repression and deceit necessary for promoting and enforcing it. Those are values, but not those that can underpin a wholesome society.
 

Quote:People who share our values don't let gangs/mobs wreak havoc and destroy property and let their show hosts insult half the nation on a daily basis.

Black Lives Matter has made clear that the issue isn't that blacks must be free to get away with violent crimes or property crimes. It is about stopping police brutality that kills helpless black people. It's about putting an end to allowing white cops brutalize black suspects. Note well that there could easily be white people who could face similar treatment to George Floyd if the tables were turned. Think of the meth subculture, and just imagine what black cops must think about that.

If you want to know the truth -- the cops have already infiltrated Black Lives Matter. Add to this, people who took camcorders or cell phones with the capacity for taking video in the event of police misconduct have often filmed rioters instead. Spokespeople for Black Lives Matter don't defend someone who comes out of Target with merchandise not in shopping bags.      

Quote:I keep telling you to knock it off because the whole race thing and people not giving a shit about you people is going to eventually blow up in your faces.

The 'race' problem will eventually solve itself with race-mixing. That will compel white people to think about black relatives (East Asians might as well be white). But note well: we have a big problem with economic inequality that the Hard Right wishes to intensify until sybaritic indulgence by elites in the presence of mass destitution becomes the norm -- and that people are helpless, unable to avoid destitution even if they work to exhaustion and unable to use the political system or the media for redress of grievances. 

Quote:We don't give a shut about the Liberal's Bob and I doubt the minorities give a shit about you either. I guess you and every other white liberal are kind of *bad word*. It must suck being associated with a race that doesn't refer to each other as brothers and sisters unless directly related or we highly respect one another.

Toward the end of his tragically-foreshortened life, Dr. Martin Luther King took a trip to Appalachia and came to the conclusion that Appalachian whites were just as oppressed as blacks were at the time... which says much about poverty in America at the time. 

I can say this about the Talented Tenth of blacks (although the percentage that lives like the Talented Tenth of Booker T. Washington's day has expanded greatly, the principle still applies): the black economic elite seems to care about poor blacks far more than the white elite and the white middle class seems to care about white people left behind, as in the Mountain South. OK, if you really are black and you have moved up to the East Side to a deluxe apartment in the sky (theme song of The Jeffersons) then you know how close the ghetto is. On the other hand, if you are white and you live in the North Side of Chicago (where you might live like a German instead of an American without speaking German), then Appalachia is pretty country on the way to or from Great Smoky Mountains National Park and southern Missouri is an attractive extended trip on Interstate 44 on the way to Dallas or Los Angeles. McDonald's or Applebee's in Winchester, Kentucky or Lebanon, Missouri might be as close as you get to reality in such a place, and it isn't that much different from McDonald's or Applebee's in Skokie.  Life in America's Mountain South is statistically awful, and that has nothing to do with racial disparities as in the Deep South.

As a formerly middle-class white person now poor I now far more trust the expanded Talented Tenth of blacks than I trust the WASP elite.

(08-17-2020, 06:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-17-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bob, a significant portion of the Democratic party has no values where as the Republican side has values. People who share our values don't let gangs/mobs wreak havoc and destroy property and let their show hosts insult half the nation on a daily basis. I keep telling you to knock it off because the whole race thing and people not giving a shit about you people is going to eventually blow up in your faces. We don't give a shut about the Liberal's Bob and I doubt the minorities give a shit about you either. I guess you and every other white liberal are kind of *bad word*. It must suck being associated with a race that doesn't refer to each other as brothers and sisters unless directly related or we highly respect one another.

Can’t find a better example?  Changing the subject again when your prior argument goes nowhere?

On the streets, many groups have many motives.  We have the the secret police, the racist violent police, the police, Black Lives Matter, the Boogaloo Bois, and the looters.  You seem to be confused as to their motives, and certainly scramble their motives around.  You can pretend the KKK, Neo nazi and Antifa matter, but those are pre trigger.  They have essentially disappeared since black lives matter took off.  I am almost tempted to put the secret police into the don’t exist anymore category too.  Trump was into his instigate violence behavior for a while, but that backfired into making his campaign crash harder.  He hasn’t been trying to instigate violence lately.

Better response than I had! When all is said and done, I can just imagine what the people in Black Lives Matter would do if they saw street crime. They would call the police! I certainly hope that the "Trump-Trump Macoutes" are largely in the past. Maybe our next Constitutional Amendment will be one precluding a secret police. Trump has made that necessary by forming his own even if failing to give it a name. We never needed such an amendment to our Constitution, but Trump has shown us the need for such.

Quote:You claim there are vigilantes like you, but I have heard no reports of them.  They are not a factor, nor are the rural militias a factor.

Nothing.  Nada.  No shows.  With your obsession with violence you try to make us believe your daydreams are real, but they are just daydreams for the moment.  The are one ideologue’s empty whim.

Those rural militias would wilt if they had to appear in the "Dark Side of Town" because they can't figure out who the Good Guys and Bad Guys are unless it is the simplistic "dark skins bad, pale skins good". A community organizer who has very good intentions, like Barack Obama, knows enough to listen to find out who the pimps and pushers are and how to avoid them.  People are like dogs in that it is easy to turn the most docile person or dog into a ferocious enemy by doing something incredibly stupid. Human stupidity is far more commonplace than is comfortable for me. 

Quote:I would worry about the groups that are actually there.

Now all of these groups, at least those that still exist, have world views and values.  Your instance that people exist with no values show you don’t know people.  People have values.  They may vary a lot, and do.  Some are well thought out, some are not.  They still have values.

The Boogaloo Boys and the looters do exist.  I think the police can handle them.  But they are in the minority.  They are not a real threat.

Not only the cops -- but also the legal and penal system. Video images are damning. When it comes to looters, news cameramen from channels 4, 5, 9, and 11 as well as the TV networks and cable news channels have supplied much footage. News media gladly give prosecutors evidence and get stories in return when those are newsworthy. This isn't 1967 in Detroit anymore; video cameras are everywhere, and nobody has any privacy rights when committing a crime. The best defense from a camera is to be boring. Most of us, I included, are crashing bores once we set foot into a big box store. 

Quote:There are far more Democrats, believing in democracy, human rights and equality.  Those are one set of traditional American values.  They are hardly the only values, but the dominant ones which matter.  They are in opposition to the elites and racists which are traditionally associated with the conservatives.  The conservatives seem to have a choice to make whether to go down with the elites and racists.  You seem to have made your choice.  I think it is the wrong one.  We will see what the bulk of the conservatives choose.  I don’t see it particularly as my fight.

But I suspect most conservatives will be wiser than you.

The conservatives who arise in the 2030's will have nothing to do with the flagrant superstition, demagoguery, divisiveness, and flamboyance of the contemporary Right. A 1T is the wrong time for such... and the only flamboyance will be in the entertainment business.

(08-17-2020, 06:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-17-2020, 02:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bob, a significant portion of the Democratic party has no values where as the Republican side has values. People who share our values don't let gangs/mobs wreak havoc and destroy property and let their show hosts insult half the nation on a daily basis. I keep telling you to knock it off because the whole race thing and people not giving a shit about you people is going to eventually blow up in your faces. We don't give a shut about the Liberal's Bob and I doubt the minorities give a shit about you either. I guess you and every other white liberal are kind of *bad word*. It must suck being associated with a race that doesn't refer to each other as brothers and sisters unless directly related or we highly respect one another.

Can’t find a better example?  Changing the subject again when your prior argument goes nowhere?

On the streets, many groups have many motives.  We have the the secret police, the racist violent police, the police, Black Lives Matter, the Boogaloo Bois, and the looters.  You seem to be confused as to their motives, and certainly scramble their motives around.  You can pretend the KKK, Neo nazi and Antifa matter, but those are pre trigger.  They have essentially disappeared since black lives matter took off.  I am almost tempted to put the secret police into the don’t exist anymore category too.  Trump was into his instigate violence behavior for a while, but that backfired into making his campaign crash harder.  He hasn’t been trying to instigate violence lately.

You claim there are vigilantes like you, but I have heard no reports of them.  They are not a factor, nor are the rural militias a factor.

Nothing.  Nada.  No shows.  With your obsession with violence you try to make us believe your daydreams are real, but they are just daydreams for the moment.  The are one ideologue’s empty whim.

I would worry about the groups that are actually there.

Now all of these groups, at least those that still exist, have world views and values.  Your instance that people exist with no values show you don’t know people.  People have values.  They may vary a lot, and do.  Some are well thought out, some are not.  They still have values.

The Boogaloo Boys and the looters do exist.  I think the police can handle them.  But they are in the minority.  They are not a real threat.

There are far more Democrats, believing in democracy, human rights and equality.  Those are one set of traditional American values.  They are hardly the only values, but the dominant ones which matter.  They are in opposition to the elites and racists which are traditionally associated with the conservatives.  The conservatives seem to have a choice to make wheather to go down with the elites and racists.  You seem to have made your choice.  I think it is the wrong one.  We will see what the bulk of the conservatives choose.  I don’t see it particularly as my fight.

But I suspect most conservatives will be wiser than you.

Yes. There are millions of so called vigilantes like me that you don't see who are idle at the moment and waiting to see how this election plays out. I hope you are right Bob. I hope there are enough traditional minded Democrats left to keep the Democratic party in line with our values or I suggest that you prepare yourself for one the most violent clashes between two countries that the world has ever seen so far We don't live in China or some weak/lawless country that was associated with the former Soviet Union or some third world country. One other thing, there are more Democrats using democracy to get whatever it is that they want or feel they need or to change laws to eliminate threats and whatever else. All I can do is say that I'm sorry to you in advance.