Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(10-05-2018, 07:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 05:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 10:08 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-04-2018, 10:36 PM)berlin Wrote: [ -> ]Americans think that the US must be a police state now because the USA was always a police state, but Americans don't realize that the US used to have freedom and lost it.

As an American, I know that we've never been perfect as a country, but darker periods have always been overcome.  That's the past, which, we are always warned, is not prologue.  The 1950s were dark, in their way, but nothing like now.  Other than the period just prior to the ACW, I can't think of a precedent.  So we will either save our democracy or it will degrade into something more autocratic.  It's up to us.  No one is riding to the rescue.

For many, the 'rescue' might be unwelcome. Politics look much like those of the late 1850s, with Machiavellian power plays (including BK, and that does not mean Burger King) become the norm. If you think America polarized now, then think of what it will be like in the middle of November. We do not have a well-intentioned President (Buchanan) at his wits end trying to patch things together and failing. We have a President trying to establish a despotism or dictatorship that people might know only if they lived in such a place -- and not America. Trump could be worse than Buchanan in his effect upon the quality of politics.

An attempt to establish a tyranny, as by nullifying an election, would put an end to America and make America extremely unstable. Such could be the pretext for a military coup.

The best that I can hope for is that Americans tire of Trump and start showing such in elections. Maybe the Republican Party ends up going the way of the (Communist-dominated) Polish United Worker's Party (initials PZPR), losing its parliamentary seats in three stages in straddled elections. Maybe we find that farmers and ranchers who usually vote Republican out of concern for taxes will not be so concerned about taxes as their revenues plummet.

As revenues plummet, people become more concerned about the amount of taxes that they are legally obligated to pay. The best you can hope for is an amicable divorce/ split and a free ticket along with a guarantee of safe passage to where ever blue America end up.

Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

(10-05-2018, 09:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 07:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 05:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 10:08 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-04-2018, 10:36 PM)berlin Wrote: [ -> ]Americans think that the US must be a police state now because the USA was always a police state, but Americans don't realize that the US used to have freedom and lost it.

As an American, I know that we've never been perfect as a country, but darker periods have always been overcome.  That's the past, which, we are always warned, is not prologue.  The 1950s were dark, in their way, but nothing like now.  Other than the period just prior to the ACW, I can't think of a precedent.  So we will either save our democracy or it will degrade into something more autocratic.  It's up to us.  No one is riding to the rescue.

For many, the 'rescue' might be unwelcome. Politics look much like those of the late 1850s, with Machiavellian power plays (including BK, and that does not mean Burger King) become the norm. If you think America polarized now, then think of what it will be like in the middle of November. We do not have a well-intentioned President (Buchanan) at his wits end trying to patch things together and failing. We have a President trying to establish a despotism or dictatorship that people might know only if they lived in such a place -- and not America. Trump could be worse than Buchanan in his effect upon the quality of politics.

An attempt to establish a tyranny, as by nullifying an election, would put an end to America and make America extremely unstable. Such could be the pretext for a military coup.

The best that I can hope for is that Americans tire of Trump and start showing such in elections. Maybe the Republican Party ends up going the way of the (Communist-dominated) Polish United Worker's Party (initials PZPR), losing its parliamentary seats in three stages in straddled elections. Maybe we find that farmers and ranchers who usually vote Republican out of concern for taxes will not be so concerned about taxes as their revenues plummet.

As revenues plummet, people become more concerned about the amount of taxes that they are legally obligated to pay. The best you can hope for is an amicable divorce/ split and a free ticket along with a guarantee of safe passage to where ever blue America end up.

Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you.

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 09:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 07:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 05:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 10:08 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]As an American, I know that we've never been perfect as a country, but darker periods have always been overcome.  That's the past, which, we are always warned, is not prologue.  The 1950s were dark, in their way, but nothing like now.  Other than the period just prior to the ACW, I can't think of a precedent.  So we will either save our democracy or it will degrade into something more autocratic.  It's up to us.  No one is riding to the rescue.

For many, the 'rescue' might be unwelcome. Politics look much like those of the late 1850s, with Machiavellian power plays (including BK, and that does not mean Burger King) become the norm. If you think America polarized now, then think of what it will be like in the middle of November. We do not have a well-intentioned President (Buchanan) at his wits end trying to patch things together and failing. We have a President trying to establish a despotism or dictatorship that people might know only if they lived in such a place -- and not America. Trump could be worse than Buchanan in his effect upon the quality of politics.

An attempt to establish a tyranny, as by nullifying an election, would put an end to America and make America extremely unstable. Such could be the pretext for a military coup.

The best that I can hope for is that Americans tire of Trump and start showing such in elections. Maybe the Republican Party ends up going the way of the (Communist-dominated) Polish United Worker's Party (initials PZPR), losing its parliamentary seats in three stages in straddled elections. Maybe we find that farmers and ranchers who usually vote Republican out of concern for taxes will not be so concerned about taxes as their revenues plummet.

As revenues plummet, people become more concerned about the amount of taxes that they are legally obligated to pay. The best you can hope for is an amicable divorce/ split and a free ticket along with a guarantee of safe passage to where ever blue America end up.

Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you

Brainwashed? That's funny. A brainwashed left winger accusing me of being brainwashed is funny. First of all, I'm not a young Libertarian voter or a clueless anarchist of some sort that you became accustomed to tangling with on a regular basis. I'm a real life middle aged American who has paid lots of taxes. Right now, you are stupid for not being able to figure that out, stupid for not being able to accept that as being me and stupid for trying to convert me to socialism and for trying to convince me that socialism would be better for all of us than capitalism has been for most us. I'm telling you that the best you can hope for is a socialist system for blues and a capitalist system for reds with a national border existing between them and separate currencies.

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 09:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you.

Many of us Xers remember Nixon, Ford and Carter in addition to the stagflation of the seventies which is a legacy of the Vietnam War and the War on poverty which were both very expensive.  These two things were paid for by monetizing the debt.  Which is another name for printing a bunch of currency and then buying financial assets.  The better informed will recognize this as basically the same process as QE.

Taxes became a concern in the late seventies because of the loss of purchasing power due to inflation and what was known as bracket creep.  One of the things Eric the Obtuse and the Keynesian types will never admit is that inflation tends to harm those with lower income simply because the purchasing power of currency decreases while financial and tangible assets increase in nominal terms.  This increase in asset prices tends to benefit the wealthy since they are more likely to own such assets rather than simply hold cash which those with lower incomes tend to do.

In many ways voting for Reagan was a rejection of the usual suspects from the political class as much as voting for Trump was in 2016.  One thing that is not commonly recognized is that the GOP establishment has been at war with its own base for decades.  Trump was not campaigning on a neocon platform which all of his GOP competitors and Hillary were.  Even Rand Paul was sounding far more neocon than he usually does which was no doubt due to his campaign advisors.  Given that red states provide so many soldiers it is hardly surprising that so many in the GOP want the wars to end and no one other than Trump in 2016 gave them the slightest hope of that happening.

I went to school with someone that died in the Iraq War.  He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer which is why he ended up the the army to begin with.  He managed to get a silver star which means that he did not go down easily and is something I would expect from an Xer.  Xers tend to be survivors and one characteristic of survivors is to not give up until someone plants you into the ground.  Having lived around the people that so many Dims despise and yet have never met gives me a better feel for why they support Trump than Eric the Obtuse and his ilk ever will.

Consider for a moment why evangelicals would continue to support Trump even in spite of Stormy Daniels.  There is an easily accessible reason for this that the Dims such as Eric the Obtuse will never admit to.

(10-06-2018, 06:49 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the (Green) Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 09:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you.

Many of us Xers remember Nixon, Ford and Carter in addition to the stagflation of the seventies which is a legacy of the Vietnam War and the War on poverty which were both very expensive.  These two things were paid for by monetizing the debt.  Which is another name for printing a bunch of currency and then buying financial assets.  The better informed will recognize this as basically the same process as QE.

Taxes became a concern in the late seventies because of the loss of purchasing power due to inflation and what was known as bracket creep.  One of the things Eric the (Green) and the Keynesian types will never admit is that inflation tends to harm those with lower income simply because the purchasing power of currency decreases while financial and tangible assets increase in nominal terms.  This increase in asset prices tends to benefit the wealthy since they are more likely to own such assets rather than simply hold cash which those with lower incomes tend to do.

But -- inflation serves people or organizations in debt by reducing its severity. Poor people typically go through their cash holdings quickly as the means of meeting the cost of living; poor people typically spend everything that they get. It's only with hyperinflation that the pay from Thursday morning loses a chunk of its value by the early afternoon that inflation starts hurting the poor. It is middle-class people who save who might get burned.

Debtors tend to be on the Left politically, as they want a more vibrant economy and can benefit from the real reduction in their burden of debt. Creditors tend to be on the Right politically, and farther to the Right to the extent that they are creditors. Creditors at their worst hold debtors in thrall, as with sharecroppers who typically fall just short of meeting obligations to pay off debt to the landowner and remain in debt -- but that allows the big landowner to keep in employ a good source of cheap labor. To be sure, small-scale creditors such as those who own a modest insurance policy or savings account have an interest in seeing that their asset not become a sick joke through heavy inflation, but such small-scale creditors need an income just to avoid devouring the assets that they own.

Quote:In many ways voting for Reagan was a rejection of the usual suspects from the political class as much as voting for Trump was in 2016.  One thing that is not commonly recognized is that the GOP establishment has been at war with its own base for decades.  Trump was not campaigning on a neocon platform which all of his GOP competitors and Hillary were.  Even Rand Paul was sounding far more neocon than he usually does which was no doubt due to his campaign advisors.  Given that red states provide so many soldiers it is hardly surprising that so many in the GOP want the wars to end and no one other than Trump in 2016 gave them the slightest hope of that happening.

Reagan was a lick pol, and he put an end to stagflation by compelling people with excessive expectations to lower theirs. Got a college degree and looking for non-existent jobs that you might like? Then take a look at the shopping mall or the fast-food restaurant. Oh, the pay is inadequate? Take two such jobs, where you are obliged to put on the moronic "Happy to serve you!" smile. You will be able to afford the rent and buy some groceries and the car that gets you to the jobs that you hate, and you might get a little extra as a minor salve. That promoted a little more productivity in the service sector.

I was there, and I hated it. But stagflation came to an end and many people were more comfortable with what they had.

Quote:Consider for a moment why evangelicals would continue to support Trump even in spite of Stormy Daniels.  There is an easily accessible reason for this that the (Democrats or liberals) will never admit to.

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

Trump may be a rogue, but he  tells people what they want to hear. Evangelical Christianity is largely flim-flam, and people who get snookered for one thing often get snookered for another.

(10-06-2018, 10:08 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2018, 06:49 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the (Green) Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 09:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you.

Many of us Xers remember Nixon, Ford and Carter in addition to the stagflation of the seventies which is a legacy of the Vietnam War and the War on poverty which were both very expensive.  These two things were paid for by monetizing the debt.  Which is another name for printing a bunch of currency and then buying financial assets.  The better informed will recognize this as basically the same process as QE.

Taxes became a concern in the late seventies because of the loss of purchasing power due to inflation and what was known as bracket creep.  One of the things Eric the (Green) and the Keynesian types will never admit is that inflation tends to harm those with lower income simply because the purchasing power of currency decreases while financial and tangible assets increase in nominal terms.  This increase in asset prices tends to benefit the wealthy since they are more likely to own such assets rather than simply hold cash which those with lower incomes tend to do.

But -- inflation serves people or organizations in debt by reducing its severity. Poor people typically go through their cash holdings quickly as the means of meeting the cost of living; poor people typically spend everything that they get. It's only with hyperinflation that the pay from Thursday morning loses a chunk of its value by the early afternoon that inflation starts hurting the poor. It is middle-class people who save who might get burned.

Debtors tend to be on the Left politically, as they want a more vibrant economy and can benefit from the real reduction in their burden of debt. Creditors tend to be on the Right politically, and farther to the Right to the extent that they are creditors. Creditors at their worst hold debtors in thrall, as with sharecroppers who typically fall just short of meeting obligations to pay off debt to the landowner and remain in debt -- but that allows the big landowner to keep in employ a good source of cheap labor. To be sure, small-scale creditors such as those who own a modest insurance policy or savings account have an interest in seeing that their asset not become a sick joke through heavy inflation, but such small-scale creditors need an income just to avoid devouring the assets that they own.

Quote:In many ways voting for Reagan was a rejection of the usual suspects from the political class as much as voting for Trump was in 2016.  One thing that is not commonly recognized is that the GOP establishment has been at war with its own base for decades.  Trump was not campaigning on a neocon platform which all of his GOP competitors and Hillary were.  Even Rand Paul was sounding far more neocon than he usually does which was no doubt due to his campaign advisors.  Given that red states provide so many soldiers it is hardly surprising that so many in the GOP want the wars to end and no one other than Trump in 2016 gave them the slightest hope of that happening.

Reagan was a lick pol, and he put an end to stagflation by compelling people with excessive expectations to lower theirs. Got a college degree and looking for non-existent jobs that you might like? Then take a look at the shopping mall or the fast-food restaurant. Oh, the pay is inadequate? Take two such jobs, where you are obliged to put on the moronic "Happy to serve you!" smile. You will be able to afford the rent and buy some groceries and the car that gets you to the jobs that you hate, and you might get a little extra as a minor salve. That promoted a little more productivity in the service sector.

I was there, and I hated it. But stagflation came to an end and many people were more comfortable with what they had.

Quote:Consider for a moment why evangelicals would continue to support Trump even in spite of Stormy Daniels.  There is an easily accessible reason for this that the (Democrats or liberals) will never admit to.

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

Trump may be a rogue, but he  tells people what they want to hear. Evangelical Christianity is largely flim-flam, and people who get snookered for one thing often get snookered for another.

I am not a fan of inflation and QE. I am in favor of government spending though, especially during big recessions when it stimulates the economy. The Obama stimulus did that, handcuffed though it was, and its effect reduced by massive cuts in state jobs due to the Tea Party counter-revolution in Nov.2010. After that, QE was the ONLY means the government had to stimulate the economy. Inflation did not result, because the recovery was so slow.

We had a poster here named Playwrite who advocated what amounts to QE, pretty much, called modern monetary policy of MMT. I can't say that he was wrong. Government pumping of money into the economy can create jobs and prosperity, while austerity can bring it to a halt. I don't like national debt and inflation; I may be less liberal on spending than Galen claims. Normally I would prefer a balanced budget and government spending paid for by fair taxes.

But the right wing is not opposed to taxes because they might suppress business and commerce. They are against taxes on principle and according to dogma. I am opposed to their tinkle-down economics, free-market, government is the problem, self-reliance uber alles dogmas. It's a tempting superstition. But in fact we need a functioning government in order for society to work. There are still greedy people, and power-hungry people. Libertarians admit they exist in the government, and I agree they need to be voted out and restrained by law. They forget or ignore the fact that there are even more greedy people in business, and that business must be regulated and taxed, and that if they are not, then we live in a banana republic or a feudal society. That's where we're headed now, and have traveled a good distance there already since Reagan.

The GOP has been for years the leading party for wars, and there's no doubt whatever that red states are militarist. And they gladly accept all the expensive outlays and military pork into their states. The only opposition to the Iraq War came from 22 Democrats in the Senate. Obama campaigned against it. Kerry campaigned against it. There was not a single American war casualty under Bill Clinton. LBJ was a Democrat and started the Vietnam War, no doubt. But the GOP supported him. All its opponents were Democrats, and they ran peace candidates from then on. The GOP became the war party, and it put down the peace advocates mercilessly for decades, and the hate Jane Fonda madness kept Kansas and other red states in the GOP column for decades and decades. Reagan kept a ridiculous war against the people of Nicaragua going for years. Bush I started a war for no reason, and Bush II started another war for no reason. Hundreds of thousands died at his hands. Which party did he and his fellow neo-cons belong to?

Trump is a liar about all his campaign promises, to one extent or another. He is stoking war with Iran, and refuses to make peace there. He is giving war monster Netanyahu everything he wants. He might succeed in his strategy of threats with Kim Jung Un, but that has yet to be seen. He promised a reign of terror and war crimes in Iraq to defeat the IS. Thousands more died unnecessarily under his approach to war. What does "make America great again" and "we're going to win so much that you'll be sick of winning" mean?

(10-06-2018, 02:54 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 09:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 07:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 05:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]For many, the 'rescue' might be unwelcome. Politics look much like those of the late 1850s, with Machiavellian power plays (including BK, and that does not mean Burger King) become the norm. If you think America polarized now, then think of what it will be like in the middle of November. We do not have a well-intentioned President (Buchanan) at his wits end trying to patch things together and failing. We have a President trying to establish a despotism or dictatorship that people might know only if they lived in such a place -- and not America. Trump could be worse than Buchanan in his effect upon the quality of politics.

An attempt to establish a tyranny, as by nullifying an election, would put an end to America and make America extremely unstable. Such could be the pretext for a military coup.

The best that I can hope for is that Americans tire of Trump and start showing such in elections. Maybe the Republican Party ends up going the way of the (Communist-dominated) Polish United Worker's Party (initials PZPR), losing its parliamentary seats in three stages in straddled elections. Maybe we find that farmers and ranchers who usually vote Republican out of concern for taxes will not be so concerned about taxes as their revenues plummet.

As revenues plummet, people become more concerned about the amount of taxes that they are legally obligated to pay. The best you can hope for is an amicable divorce/ split and a free ticket along with a guarantee of safe passage to where ever blue America end up.

Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you

Brainwashed? That's funny. A brainwashed left winger accusing me of being brainwashed is funny. First of all, I'm not a young Libertarian voter or a clueless anarchist of some sort that you became accustomed to tangling with on a regular basis. I'm a real life middle aged American who has paid lots of taxes. Right now, you are stupid for not being able to figure that out, stupid for not being able to accept that as being me and stupid for trying to convert me to socialism and for trying to convince me that socialism would be better for all of us than capitalism has been for most us. I'm telling you that the best you can hope for is a socialist system for blues and a capitalist system for reds with a national border existing between them and separate currencies.

I don't disagree that may be a good solution, as long as the reds continue to believe in the right wing trickle-down economics dogmas that you defend on a regular basis, and their other superstitions. I know, and have said, that you are not a full-blown libertarian anarchist; I am very familiar with your views. I spend way too much time on this site, and on facebook too.

When you say I am advocating socialism to you, that is probably further off the mark than if I called you an anarchist. If you call it a watered-down green democratic socialism in a mixed economy, then I might accept that label (that's a long label, I know). To you, moderate, reasonable levels of "social" spending, taxes and regulations is "socialism." But the fact that you call it that, shows that you are a trickle-down dogma believer, as if we didn't already know.

(10-06-2018, 10:08 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2018, 06:49 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Consider for a moment why evangelicals would continue to support Trump even in spite of Stormy Daniels.  There is an easily accessible reason for this that the (Democrats or liberals) will never admit to.

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

Trump may be a rogue, but he  tells people what they want to hear. Evangelical Christianity is largely flim-flam, and people who get snookered for one thing often get snookered for another.  

This is what I would expect you to say because you really haven't given the issue much thought and you really don't care what they think anyway.

The real reason is that he is not actively hostile to Christianity the way the left is.  They will accept a flawed President that will give them some things that they want rather than have a president that either disregards their beliefs or is actively hostile to them.  Consider for a moment how more Christian refugees are being accepted by the Trump Administration than under Obama.

(10-06-2018, 05:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2018, 02:54 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 09:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 07:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]As revenues plummet, people become more concerned about the amount of taxes that they are legally obligated to pay. The best you can hope for is an amicable divorce/ split and a free ticket along with a guarantee of safe passage to where ever blue America end up.

Amicable divorce? In view of the sadistic tendencies in one part of American culture, I expect it to be as nasty as the dissolution of Yugoslavia. There are some very Red areas in some Blue states and very Blue areas in some Red states.

The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you

Brainwashed? That's funny. A brainwashed left winger accusing me of being brainwashed is funny.         First of all, I'm not a young Libertarian voter or a clueless anarchist of some sort that you became accustomed to tangling with on a regular basis. I'm a real life middle aged American who has paid lots of  taxes. Right now, you are stupid for not being able to figure that out, stupid for not being able to accept that as being me and stupid for trying to convert me to socialism and for trying to convince me that socialism would be better for all of us than capitalism has been for most us. I'm telling you that the best you can hope for is a socialist system for blues and a capitalist system for reds with a national border existing between them and separate  currencies.

I don't disagree that may be a good solution, as long as the reds continue to believe in the right wing trickle-down economics dogmas that you defend on a regular basis, and their other superstitions. I know, and have said, that you are not a full-blown libertarian anarchist; I am very familiar with your views. I spend way too much time on this site, and on facebook too.

When you say I am advocating socialism to you, that is probably further off the mark than if I called you an anarchist. If you call it a watered-down green democratic socialism in a mixed economy, then I might accept that label (that's a long label, I know). To you, moderate, reasonable levels of "social" spending, taxes and regulations is "socialism." But the fact that you call it that, shows that you are a trickle-down dogma believer, as if we didn't already know.

First, "job creator" is a poor description of people who may get a higher profit or income (through bonuses) by cutting 'head counts" in business. Much new business activity comes from replacing labor-intensive activity with technology. Profits can rise while employment falls. Example: Amazon.com effectively cannibalizes much of the role of small business in retailing. Think of Sam Goody/ Suncoast Video/Musicland: it is gone. It used to have a high profile in retailing in video and music. Amazon.com may be more efficient and give lower cost to shoppers while getting stuff more promptly, which is good for its customers, but that also implies the demise of jobs in Sam Goody/Suncoast Video/Musicland.

This is not to say that corporations are all skinflints intent on cutting wages to bare levels of subsistence for those who remain as under a Marxist sterotype that sees employers as unhinged exploiters intent on degrading workers into serfs. If a company raises pay from $6 for 20 workers to $10 for the 'surviving' ten whom it does not permanently lay off, then that company is better off, cutting $240 in compensation to twenty workers to $200 for ten workers, then that company is still doing better.

Second, income that elites get must trickle down somehow (whether through ultra-luxury spending or through high taxes) lest the economy contract to resolve the imbalance. Elites  do not foster small business; they try to take advantage of economies of scale to squeeze small-business competition out of business. Consumer spending falters, and much wealth gets shunted into speculative bubbles. the last one being the silliest. Think of the last bubble to burst in the 2008 crash: the price of motor fuels. I saw gasoline at $5.49 a gallon in rural Michigan in the summer of 2008, which analysts noticed was out of line with supply (high) and low demand (tending to fall). Unlike the situation with real estate and the financial fraud associated with the predatory lending that underpinned it, there was no fraud in the run-up in oil prices. Speculation in petroleum was the last available bet, in essence, the only game left in town. Petroleum prices cratered just before the stock market went into a tailspin.

Third, Man does not live by bread alone, and if people are to be nothing more than their economic roles they had better have wonderful jobs that allow full expression of their humanity. Most people who are nothing more than their economic roles have horrible jobs that pay little, demand rigid conformity, and compel people to pretend that they love jobs that are objectively awful. Were I to be damned to work as a sales clerk in a dollar store and trapped in the community in which I now live I would have little reason to live. Maybe I would be doing a favor by making such resources as I now have and use to people who can better appreciate them.

Finally, much of the economic entity today is best described as economic rent -- people paying high prices for living in the midst of profiteers.

(10-06-2018, 05:01 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: [ -> ]I am not a fan of inflation and QE. I am in favor of government spending though, especially during big recessions when it stimulates the economy. The Obama stimulus did that, handcuffed though it was, and its effect reduced by massive cuts in state jobs due to the Tea Party counter-revolution in Nov.2010. After that, QE was the ONLY means the government had to stimulate the economy. Inflation did not result, because the recovery was so slow.

Even the lefties from the Guardian agree that QE contributes to increasing wealth inequality.  Even George Soros who is hardly a libertarian says that QE causes asset bubbles and wealth inequality.  Even the MSM understands that QE benefited Wall Street primarily.  There was price inflation as a consequence of monetary inflation but it was primarily asset prices that were inflated.

Your lack of scientific knowledge is only surpassed by your economic idiocy because you still can't understand that the poor don't generally hold financial assets like stocks.  It is also worth noting [url="https://www.bloomberg.com/technology]corporate debt[/url] is becoming a concern to the investment community who are pretty conventional in their economic views.

As usual you are a complete moron spouting nonsense.

(10-06-2018, 09:16 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2018, 10:08 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2018, 06:49 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Consider for a moment why evangelicals would continue to support Trump even in spite of Stormy Daniels.  There is an easily accessible reason for this that the (Democrats or liberals) will never admit to.

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

Trump may be a rogue, but he  tells people what they want to hear. Evangelical Christianity is largely flim-flam, and people who get snookered for one thing often get snookered for another.  

This is what I would expect you to say because you really haven't given the issue much thought and you really don't care what they think anyway.

The real reason is that he is not actively hostile to Christianity the way the left is.  They will accept a flawed President that will give them some things that they want rather than have a president that either disregards their beliefs or is actively hostile to them.  Consider for a moment how more Christian refugees are being accepted by the Trump Administration than under Obama.

The Christian refugees would have been from Daesh/ISIS when Obama was President. Daesh compelled conversion and prohibited escape of people who had been Christians. Those Christians were not fundamentalist Christians; they were Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Monophysite Christians. Under Trump there are more Christians in need of refuge from thug regimes, especially in Syria. Needless to say, the gangster regime in Syria also produces many Muslim refugees, as Syria is predominantly Muslim. There has been more time and opportunity for them to escape while Trump has been President.

It is worth remembering that the Christianity that the Left has most trouble with is the part of the fundamentalist-evangelical segment itself hostile to modernity of any kind, including everything left of center. Modernists of all kinds are hostile to a world-view that promotes pseudoscience and intolerance. Although not all fundamentalist Christians are on the Right (the Sojourners are fundamentalist, but they are clearly Left on social justice for seeing unbridled capitalism as a violation of Christian ethics, the legacy of the Moral Majority is. Paradoxically, Protestant fundamentalism is a new phenomenon in the history of Christianity despite being so clearly anti-modern, and it even ante-dates feminism, socialism, pacifism, environmentalism, humanism, and of course the whole Enlightenment, all of which are older than itself (Again, I am discussing the right-wing Moral Majority and its political and philosophical legacy, itself appearing only in the 1970s). It clearly opposes any economic values dating from before the New Deal, sponsoring an unbridled capitalism that elevates greed, selfishness, and inequality to virtues that Jesus Himself excoriated. It promotes superstition and pseudoscience (including young-Earth creationism). It disparages psychology, making its believers particularly gullible. It is hostile to non-Christian religion of any kind, and even to other forms of Christianity. It is clearly for patriarchy (anti-feminism), plutocracy, a pre-scientific worldview, and science except for technologies of production.

Liberals might be in opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church on sexuality... but if they oppose Pope Francis on politics and economics it is for being too far to the Left. Many conservatives find the fundamentalist agenda troublesome because those conservatives are moderates. They may consider capitalism in general a good idea, but the capitalism that those moderate conservatives believe in is one that gives the common man a stake in the system necessary for keeping the masses from facing the temptation of Marxist demagoguery. Such moderate conservatives do not want the capitalist order to create a Hell-hole resembling Russia on the eve of the Bolshevik Revolution. It is bad capitalism, typically a capitalism that still has feudal characteristics (Russia under the Romanov dynasty) or in which cronyism and corruption are the norms (Cuba under Batista, China under Chiang Kai-Shek), that makes Marxist insurgencies and revolutions possible.

The discord between the Religious Right and what you call the Left (liberals are not social democrats, who themselves are not Communists) is mutual. The Religious Right is for a premodern, hierarchical, inequitable, repressive society contrary to even the moderate Right, let alone liberals, social democrats, and Communists. That it can lionize someone so immoral as Donald Trump as a leader without calling him to account for his blatant violations of Christian ethics in his sex life and his business practices demonstrates hypocrisy. Sure, it could attack Bill Clinton for his 'sexcapades' (and understandably so) -- but not Trump.

On a long-defunct forum I nicknamed Bill Clinton the "First Fornicator"  even if I approved most of his policies. Really, I do not disagree that much with Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham on promiscuity. Neither is alive, and I cannot speak for them... but I wonder what either would have said about grabbing women by their crotches and by the overall sexual infidelity of Donald Trump. Maybe I can accept homosexuality so long as it has all of the characteristics of the old heterosexual ideal except for allowing same-sex relationships, but that is all that is reasonably available to a large group of people. I used the conservative principle of law and order to justify homosexuality as I use for justifying the Civil Rights movement. We get along or we get destructive, dehumanizing tragedy.

Do you call yourself a Christian? Then I challenge you to read the Sermon on the Mount, the Core Teachings of Jesus. He showed no respect for the ruling elite of His time. He was practically a socialist.

Let's bring this thread back to the issue of whether people untrustworthy to do such things as take a flight on a commercial airline should get access to firearms.

(10-06-2018, 02:54 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you

Brainwashed? That's funny. A brainwashed left winger accusing me of being brainwashed is funny.         First of all, I'm not a young Libertarian voter or a clueless anarchist of some sort that you became accustomed to tangling with on a regular basis. I'm a real life middle aged American who has paid lots of  taxes. Right now, you are stupid for not being able to figure that out, stupid for not being able to accept that as being me and stupid for trying to convert me to socialism and for trying to convince me that socialism would be better for all of us than capitalism has been for most us. I'm telling you that the best you can hope for is a socialist system for blues and a capitalist system for reds with a national border existing between them and separate  currencies.

I would not say the word 'brainwashed' is appropriate.  That to me conjures the image of a bunch of true 20th century fascists with sensory depravation tanks, or however it is that evangelicals confronting homosexuals do it today.  Attempting to coerce people into thinking another way is not happening here.

What is happening is that both sides cling their perspective as uniquely true, and both sides will cling absurdly to their parodies of how the other thinks.  Both sides have world views, and will habitually reject the other side's, will demonize, will make no attempt to understand.

Now I have my own slants.  I lean blue.  I will see the arrow of progress pointing in one direction.  I see a rejection of science by the reds.  I am seeing in the Southern Strategy a clinging to prejudice, a staying away from the Enlightenment idea that all men are created equal.  I am seeing an identification with the way things have always been, a rejection of new perspectives.  I am seeing in part a classic Marxist class conflict, with people identifying with their own class and seeking to maintain or alleviate their own perceived interest.  I am seeing a good deal of self interest, that it is to ones perceived advantage to cling to the way things have always been done.

So I know how things are going to come down in the end, assuming the progressive bias of the Industrial Age will continue to hold in the coming age.  That is not obviously true.  My arrow of progress was a thing of the Industrial Age, of the Enlightenment.  The elites may have learned a thing of two of to reverse it.  I am counting on old prejudices being released, in people seeing the new problems.

What I am not seeing is irrationality, of people clinging to things other than how things have always been.  The elites may have no need to overturn an older group of elites, to make promises to the People.  Cultures attempt to perpetuate how they have been.  They resist change, attempts to deal with serious problems, if only by claiming the problems don't exist.

(10-07-2018, 11:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2018, 02:54 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-05-2018, 11:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The obsession which you reds, Classic Xer, have, is entirely due to brainwashing. Taxes were not a big concern until Reagan, Prop 13, etc., the sleepening that happened near the end of the last Awakening 2T. That's ALL it is. It's neo-liberalism, libertarian economics, supply side, whatever you call it; it is nothing but BULLSHIT. YOu are brainwashed into thinking you should not have to pay taxes, because government is the problem, taxes are theft, taxes are coercion, job creaters create jobs, yadda yadda yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. And it's is the main cause of all our problems today in the USA. And you Gen Xers grew up knowing nothing better than what the charming actor and his successors and followers have told you

Brainwashed? That's funny. A brainwashed left winger accusing me of being brainwashed is funny.         First of all, I'm not a young Libertarian voter or a clueless anarchist of some sort that you became accustomed to tangling with on a regular basis. I'm a real life middle aged American who has paid lots of  taxes. Right now, you are stupid for not being able to figure that out, stupid for not being able to accept that as being me and stupid for trying to convert me to socialism and for trying to convince me that socialism would be better for all of us than capitalism has been for most us. I'm telling you that the best you can hope for is a socialist system for blues and a capitalist system for reds with a national border existing between them and separate  currencies.

I would not say the word 'brainwashed' is appropriate.  That to me conjures the image of a bunch of true 20th century fascists with sensory depravation tanks, or however it is that evangelicals confronting homosexuals do it today.  Attempting to coerce people into thinking another way is not happening here.

In the case of Classic X'er, he may simply have had his core beliefs reinforced. For many of the rest of us it may be having beliefs  challenged and replaced at a critical moment -- election time. A decision made then can stick for two years with most elective offices, four with the President, or six with the Senate. Voting is the maximal participation that most of us have in the political process.

The Hard Right has done its job well in three of the last four Presidential and midterm elections. This election determines whether it has the ability to consolidate even more power this year and entrench itself permanently. It has the money, and I am astonished that it has yet to use it.

Quote:What is happening is that both sides cling their perspective as uniquely true, and both sides will cling absurdly to their parodies of how the other thinks.  Both sides have world views, and will habitually reject the other side's, will demonize, will make no attempt to understand.

The Right used to be a default in the event of liberal failure. It was then known as conservatism, an ideology that recognized the value of tradition, faith, natural law, and social diversity. It believed in economic opportunity for people to lift themselves out of poverty.

Such is not the meaning of the word conservatism today. It now stands for class privilege, superstition, Machiavellianism, and a social hierarchy. It is all about power, having adopted the ruthlessness of its long-time arch-enemy Marxism-Leninism. Maybe it is not so crass as to foist any such garbage as "99% of the eligible voters voted in the election, and 99% voted for the Party list", It is more clever. It wants that there be a weak opposition party that thinks itself on the brink of winning, only to find that it just barely lost enough to allow the Hard Right to remain in control. If it tried to outlaw the opposition it would face a civil war, so it is best that there be a display of electoral activity as a show of formal democracy every two years, with the other side always losing, and in between elections, the Right gets to force upon us its attitude that people are nothing more than their economic roles except in such harmless activities as church, hobbies (if they aren't too poor), or perhaps a civic or fraternal organization.

I see God as an accomplice; hobbies are wastes of time, and civic and fraternal organizations empty. One might as well watch a movie as participate in those.

Quote:Now I have my own slants.  I lean blue.  I will see the arrow of progress pointing in one direction.  I see a rejection of science by the reds.  I am seeing in the Southern Strategy a clinging to prejudice, a staying away from the Enlightenment idea that all men are created equal.  I am seeing an identification with the way things have always been, a rejection of new perspectives.  I am seeing in part a classic Marxist class conflict, with people identifying with their own class and seeking to maintain or alleviate their own perceived interest.  I am seeing a good deal of self interest, that it is to ones perceived advantage to cling to the way things have always been done.

I have the same slant. But I recognize also that history is an obscene tale written in the blood of innocent people murdered by tyrants, fanatics, and corrupt officials. The parchment is the once-precious flesh of those innocent people.

Maybe people do not change their ways until they see their world in doom from its own failures -- like wars for profit that bring great human losses or for glory that turns into ignominious defeat. More likely will be an economic downturn as severe as that of 1929-1932 that discredits the economic, administrative, and political elites that took everything and left the rest of us with nothing. Maybe we would replace our narcissism with humility. Maybe we would end up doing what many did in the 1930s, looking to the opportunities that we look to last -- low-yield, long-term investments that we must work hard to protect. That means small, start-up businesses to germinate in the interstices of a wrecked economy. People did such in the 1930s because there were no jobs to take. It is far easier to be a well-paid clerk than to start a business -- if the jobs for well-paid clerks are available.

Should there be a revolution toppling our elites, then we will need to create the most pro-business society and culture possible -- but unlike the current right-wing paradigm in which the only people who matter are the heirs and executives, it will be the commonplace small businessperson who must succeed. Such is the person hiring relatives who have been down and out, and the one rebuilding loyalty among customers.

Quote:I know how things are going to come down in the end, assuming the progressive bias of the Industrial Age will continue to hold in the coming age.  That is not obviously true.  My arrow of progress was a thing of the Industrial Age, of the Enlightenment.  The elites may have learned a thing of two of to reverse it.  I am counting on old prejudices being released, in people seeing the new problems.

It is easy to see positive trends -- America becoming more diverse and having to become more tolerant just so that people don't go after each other's throats. The Religious Right apparently isn't holding its kids to its smug view of the world as winners and losers. After all, if the kids have little to read but the Bible, they will read it and draw conclusions that their parents didn't have.

The idea that life is to be suffered and hated for rapacious plutocrats and selfish bureaucrats is easy to debunk in life itself. That may happen too late for me. I live in a community that I despise, bored, lonely, and broke. I may be stuck with a job that I hate for the rest of my life (I am 62)... but I know something that I can work for -- the last thing that anyone really needs. (no further hints) I have seen everything that I care to see in this dreary hick town, and if I can see nothing else I might as well leave such resources of the world as I consume to people who can better use and appreciate. Maybe there really are people genuinely "Happy to serve you!" Some people really are easy to brainwash.

Quote:What I am not seeing is irrationality, of people clinging to things other than how things have always been.  The elites may have no need to overturn an older group of elites, to make promises to the People.  Cultures attempt to perpetuate how they have been.  They resist change, attempts to deal with serious problems, if only by claiming the problems don't exist.

But grasping onto an unsustainable past, just like reaching for a star light-years away, is itself futile and irrational. The culture of elite greed is itself damned for an extreme materialism that it demands that others accept as the rightful role of those elites, and poverty as the reward for obedience to those elites. Philosophical absurdities always implode -- but one can never predict when they will implode.

The Republican party has put up a "Make America Great Again" sign. It has not changed. Maybe we are discovering what the GOP thinks was great in the past. 70-hour workweeks and 40-year lifespans for the working classes? Manifest Destiny? Social hierarchy? People suffering in This World for vague promises of Pie in the Sky When You Die?

What we have is one side that is trying as hard as it can to destroy voting rights, human rights, workers rights, consumer rights and environmental rights and to protect big business bullies as fully as possible, and the other side trying in a last-ditch effort to hold on to and expand those rights and keep the bullies at bay. McConnell says that the mob has given him a victory this November, and the polls in Texas and Tennessee seem to bear that out for the moment. What that means, without any question, and demonstrated by his behavior and that of his red supporters and voters, is that protest against an appointment of someone dedicated to destroying all our rights will be suppressed.

There are not two sides here now; there is only one right side. Not because I say so, but because the evidence is unimpeachable that this is so. The red side has forced upon us a sexual predator and a violent lying maniac whose proven record and that of his Court allies is clear evidence and proof of their desire to destroy our democracy and all our rights and values. That could not be more clear, and nothing should obfuscate that, especially any claims about intolerance on MY part Mr. Butler.

I am just stating the unfortunate facts. From here on, it is either fight or flight. The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast. The slow one now will later be fast. And the first one now will later be last, for the times they are a changin'. Classic Xer and his buddies are the enemy. We are in a civil war 4T, and the fight is on. At the ballot box for now, but in the future, who knows. The question now is not whether we can unite as a country and get along. The only question is which side will win. The other side does NOT play nice. They are ruthless. If we play nice, we lose. They have forced their way upon us, just like Kavanaugh when he put his hand over Blasey Ford's mouth. That is exactly what is happening. The reds and their voters are putting their hands over our mouth while they rape us. Should we just let ourselves be crushed?

I don't think we in California can tolerate the reactionaries in DC stomping all over our affairs. But that is what the Kavanaugh SCOTUS will do, you can take that to the bank. We will fight back; we won't take it lying down.

(10-07-2018, 02:50 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]But grasping onto an unsustainable past, just like reaching for a star light-years away, is itself futile and irrational. The culture of elite greed is itself damned for an extreme materialism that it demands that others accept as the rightful role of those elites, and poverty as the reward for obedience to those elites. Philosophical absurdities always implode -- but one can never predict when they will implode.

It is easy to judge past conservative positions by the newer values.  Kings have to yield to democracy.  Slavery has to end.  It seems less easy to dismiss the current set of conservative absurdities.  Yes, they may seem absurd and evil by you and me.  That does not prevent an extremist from plunking the word 'American' on how things have always been and expect them to always be.

(10-07-2018, 11:46 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think we in California can tolerate the reactionaries in DC stomping all over our affairs.

It seems to me that you are making the same case that a libertarian would for reducing the size and scope of the federal government.  The real reason is that you only want the feds stomping on the affairs of those you disagree with.  Now that DC isn't doing what you want then you suddenly want to reign them in.

(10-07-2018, 11:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I would not say the word 'brainwashed' is appropriate.  That to me conjures the image of a bunch of true 20th century fascists with sensory depravation tanks, or however it is that evangelicals confronting homosexuals do it today.  Attempting to coerce people into thinking another way is not happening here.

What is happening is that both sides cling their perspective as uniquely true, and both sides will cling absurdly to their parodies of how the other thinks.  Both sides have world views, and will habitually reject the other side's, will demonize, will make no attempt to understand.

Now I have my own slants.  I lean blue.  I will see the arrow of progress pointing in one direction.  I see a rejection of science by the reds.  I am seeing in the Southern Strategy a clinging to prejudice, a staying away from the Enlightenment idea that all men are created equal.  I am seeing an identification with the way things have always been, a rejection of new perspectives.  I am seeing in part a classic Marxist class conflict, with people identifying with their own class and seeking to maintain or alleviate their own perceived interest.  I am seeing a good deal of self interest, that it is to ones perceived advantage to cling to the way things have always been done.

So I know how things are going to come down in the end, assuming the progressive bias of the Industrial Age will continue to hold in the coming age.  That is not obviously true.  My arrow of progress was a thing of the Industrial Age, of the Enlightenment.  The elites may have learned a thing of two of to reverse it.  I am counting on old prejudices being released, in people seeing the new problems.

What I am not seeing is irrationality, of people clinging to things other than how things have always been.  The elites may have no need to overturn an older group of elites, to make promises to the People.  Cultures attempt to perpetuate how they have been.  They resist change, attempts to deal with serious problems, if only by claiming the problems don't exist.

I don't reject science or education. I don't worship it. I don't view it as being the all mighty or a guiding force of mankind or morality. I don't view it as the governing body that has the power to dictate, determine the course of action and decides what gets eliminated or drastically changed and determines the means and determines the instruments that will be used to enforce its laws that get imposed to address issues relating to lives of people and all of  mankind either.

So, you can say what you want to say about reds based on limited knowledge or the limited knowledge that most blues today seem to have of the reds these days but when you do that you shouldn't be offended or upset when the majority of them reject you or your ignorant/arrogant view of them or the blues worldview. I find it funny that I have teach the blues about the values that the vast majority have that aren't for sale or negotiable. Right now, you're being painted as a nasty left wing party by a large group of US citizens who are most likely more powerful, more believable and more persuasive than any blue could ever hope to be or seem to be in real life. If greater Minnesota decides its time to show up, if blue collar Democratic Minnesota decides it time to return to the basics and opt to stay home or switch sides, you can kiss a couple of Democratic bitches who seems place more value on their vagina's, people with vagina's than they place on the use of their brains and other voters who are now judging them on their use of them good bye. The blues have a serious problem. The Democrat who are closely affiliated and financially attached to them have a serious problem too. I'm reddish as you say.

(10-08-2018, 02:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I don't reject science or education. I don't worship it. I don't view it as being the all mighty or a guiding force of mankind or morality. I don't view it as the governing body that has the power to dictate, determine the course of action and decides what gets eliminated or drastically changed and determines the means and determines the instruments that will be used to enforce its laws that get imposed to address issues relating to lives of people and all of  mankind either.

So, you can say what you want to say about reds based on limited knowledge or the limited knowledge that most blues today seem to have of the reds these days but when you do that you shouldn't be offended or upset when the majority of them reject you or your ignorant/arrogant view of them or the blues worldview. I find it funny that I have teach the blues about the values that the vast majority have that aren't for sale or negotiable. Right now, you're being painted as a nasty left wing party by a large group of US citizens who are most likely more powerful, more believable and more persuasive than any blue could ever hope to be or seem to be in real life. If greater Minnesota decides its time to show up, if blue collar Democratic Minnesota decides it time to return to the basics and opt to stay home or switch sides, you can kiss a couple of Democratic bitches who seems place more value on their vagina's, people with vagina's than they place on the use of their brains and other voters who are now judging them on their use of them good bye. The blues have a serious problem. The Democrat who are closely affiliated and financially attached to them have a serious problem too. I'm reddish as you say.

Some things to point out.

Not all blues worship science and education. But good decisions often require knowing and understanding the facts of the situation. That frequently requires science and knowledge. It's not the only consideration, but it's an important one.

It is not the red side that is failing to show up to vote. It is the blue side. If more blues vote, even almost as much as reds vote, they win and the reds lose.

Abortion is used by both sides. There should be compromise, but there can't be now. Both sides are stuck with their allies. As of now, I think polls say that pro-choice has somewhat more support than anti-abortion.

(10-07-2018, 11:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]What we have is one side that is trying as hard as it can to destroy voting rights, human rights, workers rights, consumer rights and environmental rights and to protect big business bullies as fully as possible, and the other side trying in a last-ditch effort to hold on to and expand those rights and keep the bullies at bay. McConnell says that the mob has given him a victory this November, and the polls in Texas and Tennessee seem to bear that out for the moment. What that means, without any question, and demonstrated by his behavior and that of his red supporters and voters, is that protest against an appointment of someone dedicated to destroying all our rights will be suppressed.

There are not two sides here now; there is only one right side. Not because I say so, but because the evidence is unimpeachable that this is so. The red side has forced upon us a sexual predator and a violent lying maniac whose proven record and that of his Court allies is clear evidence and proof of their desire to destroy our democracy and all our rights and values. That could not be more clear, and nothing should obfuscate that, especially any claims about intolerance on MY part Mr. Butler.

I am just stating the unfortunate facts. From here on, it is either fight or flight. The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast. The slow one now will later be fast. And the first one now will later be last, for the times they are a changin'. Classic Xer and his buddies are the enemy. We are in a civil war 4T, and the fight is on. At the ballot box for now, but in the future, who knows. The question now is not whether we can unite as a country and get along. The only question is which side will win. The other side does NOT play nice. They are ruthless. If we play nice, we lose. They have forced their way upon us, just like Kavanaugh when he put his hand over Blasey Ford's mouth. That is exactly what is happening. The reds and their voters are putting their hands over our mouth while they rape us. Should we just let ourselves be crushed?

I don't think we in California can tolerate the reactionaries in DC stomping all over our affairs. But that is what the Kavanaugh SCOTUS will do, you can take that to the bank. We will fight back; we won't take it lying down.

Once upon a time, when the first Robber Barons were fighting against the established Lords and Kings of the Agricultural Age, there were many civil wars and revolutions.  In Anglo-American civilization they were regular, formed the S&H crises.  During that time you would quite expect the new values to be proclaimed in the 2T, argued over and refined during the 3T, forced martially in blood by a crisis war in the 4T, and implemented with rigid absolute force in the 1T as seemingly the only way to go.

Now I don't particularly need to tell you that the values relating to guns and nukes have changed.  I have argued that guns and therefore 4Ts were originally part of the Enlightenment values.  You have pushed that we have learned better, that freedom means less guns.  At any rate, perhaps, with nukes, computers and renewable energy, we have passed into a new age.  Perhaps we don't need 4T violence anymore.  Perhaps the Consciousness Revolution sets a new prototype for how values will change.  While the conservatives seem no less rigid in clinging to what was, the timing may have changed as well.

If so, we may be more interested in 2Ts, less in 4Ts.  We may be more interested in politics, less in war.

Now that does not mean we don't need prophets trying to sell the new values.  We needed Thomas Paine and his ilk advocating democracy, and William Lloyd Garrison and the other abolitionists promoting freedom.  We need their uncompromising flaming modern equivalents no less.

But a political process does require people willing to listen and compromise.  I know it is less popular here, where lots of extremists are into the S&H process, and are predicting a war, but I am not seeing it.  The spiral of violence is going elsewhere.  I suspect the democratic 2T will triumph over the bloodshed of war.  

You may have a place on the stage, but it is not apt to be a central place.