Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(12-19-2018, 01:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2018, 08:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]A clear good choice.  It does not hide that the now traditional red financial policies, then as now, got us into trouble, that the red economics is messed up.  It just took far less time for Trump to do the same.  Bush 43 still got us in as much trouble as anyone since Hoover.  With two more years of Trump likely, we will see.  That which does not kill us makes the regeneracy closer.

Bush 43 had his deer in the headlights look, but was not as unintelligent as all that.

I think I already know why the standard red script went bad.  Stimulating the economy full time whether things are good or bad is good in the short term, but things blow up in the long term.  I'll still keep an eye out for the HBO special.

It's a VICE documentary. My view, full time Keynesian as we see/ know of today is not good for the entire country. Keynesian is not running on script as far as it was originally intended to be used, Keynesian is supposed to be only used as a temporary fill in during crisis's and hard times. Right now, how many blues are employed or financially supported by Keynesian economics. How many blues are reliant on social programs associated with Keynesian economics? How many people lost homes and experienced financial set backs and hardship because of Keynesian economics? We have two economic systems operating in the country. We have an American system and a Keynesian system. What happened to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your  country" and what happened to Martin Luther Kings vision along with his ideals for America? Where did they go and who is teaching them these days? In my opinion, we have a blue scourge that's larger and more powerful than the red scourge you're railing about all the time these days. However, I don't believe the blue scourge is powerful enough to overthrow America. I mean, we are just using words right now. I have more powerful things other than words that can be utilized and brought to bear. Think of it this way, I'm just one member of 60 some million members on the American right these days that are active. The 60 some million does not include those who are currently inactive or those who will eventually switch sides and join. Now, this is just my view. You're entitled to stick with your own view and promote your views if you so choose.

The Kennedy years were in the big government era. From the New Deal to the Great Society, we were willing to let the government get as big as it had to be to address problems. From Reagan on, smaller government was more common. There was a red push to cut taxes and programs. The mood of the country was different in the unraveling.

Keynesian economics is independant of size. You can spend in bad times, pay off then balance in good, independent of the size of government. During the FDR - LBJ era we had a primarily democratic era running big Keynesian government. During the Reagan and heirs era, it was voodoo economics and smaller government.

I think we have to address problems more, which means big government again and somewhat. We shouldn't get as enthusiastic or corrupt though as we did towards the Great Society time. There are lessons to be learned from that. However, I would prefer the original Keynesian economics to voodoo.

We did a lot of things in the big government era... fly to the moon, contain Communism, the beginnings of environmentalism, building the interstates, civil rights, women rights, fighting poverty. We should be a little less ambitious. Throw ourselves at problems with a little less enthusiasm. Go somewhat smaller. This is a somewhat red unravelling thing. We should respect that we can't do everything at once. Kennedy's line, that was when we did believe that America was Great enough to take on all those challenges at once. After the failures of the 1970s, we don't seem as eager to do that anymore, most of us, especially the red.

What did Kennedy mean by asking us what we could do for the county? Who was helped by flying to the moon, by building the interstates, by fighting poverty and the rest? The big government tax and spend era was a time of doing what we could for the country, of giving up money to achieve much for someone else. The Reagan unravelling, like most unravellings, was and still is a time of selfishness. How does tax spending help me? If it does not help me do not spend my tax money.

It was time. It had to happen. It has to end.

So I too mourn the loss of willingness to help the country. I too mourn the loss of the civil rights values of MLK.

(12-19-2018, 08:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I am KIA 67. So, I am aware of what you did to KIA 67 and so is the moderator of this site. The F-bomb was not pointless, the F-bomb was directed a Bob for a valid reason which most if not all regular folks would recognize/see and understand and not have an issue with the way it was used at all. Unless you're name is Bob, I suggest that you learn how to keep your nose in your own business.

You're special, you have illness that requires special treatment and special rules and a special environment for you to function in without being set off or hurt emotionally that results with you doing something foolish to yourself or others. Well, you are breaking rules or ignoring sound advice from your doctor or trained professionals associated with your care. What are you doing here?

If I owned this site, do you think you'd be able to remain posting here? Nope! I wouldn't want the liability of you being around here or places like these. So, we have an issue here. So, unless you're lying which is a possibility here as well. You should consider yourself as having been placed on notice and consider your time posting here as limited.

Please focus on history and politics, not your personal vendettas. You can in good part measure the quality of the site by how much time is spent on the purpose of the site, and how much on vendettas.

(12-19-2018, 08:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2018, 03:58 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]You used a particularly-vile, pointless insult using the infamous F-bomb. You will notice that I do not use such language in this forum. I wish that you would apologize for using it, as much for its pointlessness as for its offense. I have known of sites that expel posters for such. Surely you will remember what I did to kia 67 when he urged someone to commit suicide. Such is not a vendetta; such is basic decency. I may not be the nicest person in existence, but I recognize  the desirability of treating people humanely. It does more good and causes less pain.

The bold-faced you specifically means Classic X'er. I rarely discuss posters, but in this case such is necessary.

I have no desire to replace Old Glory. Forty-eight stars and thirteen stripes marched into Dachau and Mauthausen, signaling the end to some of the most shameful things that people have ever done to others. Old Glory marched with people who sought to end segregation in the South. That flag ideally stands for what is best in our character as a People. I simply want it to stand for such again, and I do not want it shamed with evil deeds of our leaders.

I am KIA 67. So, I am aware of what you did to KIA 67 and so is the moderator of this site. The F-bomb was not pointless, the F-bomb was directed a Bob for a valid reason which most if not all regular folks would recognize/see and understand and not have an issue with the way it was used at all. Unless you're name is Bob, I suggest that you learn how to keep your nose in your own business.

You're special, you have illness that requires special treatment and special rules and a special environment for you to function in without being set off or hurt emotionally that results with you doing something foolish to yourself or others. Well, you are breaking rules or ignoring sound advice from your doctor or trained professionals associated with your care. What are you doing here?

If I owned this site, do you think you'd be able to remain posting here? Nope! I wouldn't want the liability of you being around here or places like these. So, we have an issue here. So, unless you're lying which is a possibility here as well. You should consider yourself as having been placed on notice and consider your time posting here as limited.

1. Cuss words.  Different strokes for different folks. I work in a blue collar job. Such words are normal in daily discourse. It's also not a good idea to nag folks about them either.

2. |Aspergers. Well, there are 2 folks who have this where I work as well and they cuss, fwiw. As far as I know folks with this condition are not a threat to anyone because of said condition. I even have a relative who has it. None of them gives me any discomfort anyway.

3. Issues from the old forum. I can't adjudicate these that arose on the old forum because although I was on the old forum, I was not a moderator or had any special information about what was going on. Since that stuff didn't involve me, I just ignored the whole thing.

4. If this thread doesn't calm down, I'm going to close it. After all, I don't get paid anything and emotion laden personal issues are a fucking pain in the ass.

(12-19-2018, 11:39 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2018, 08:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ][quote='pbrower2a' pid='40613' dateline='1545209938']


You used a particularly-vile, pointless insult using the infamous F-bomb. You will notice that I do not use such language in this forum. I wish that you would apologize for using it, as much for its pointlessness as for its offense. I have known of sites that expel posters for such. Surely you will remember what I did to kia 67 when he urged someone to commit suicide. Such is not a vendetta; such is basic decency. I may not be the nicest person in existence, but I recognize  the desirability of treating people humanely. It does more good and causes less pain.

The bold-faced you specifically means Classic X'er. I rarely discuss posters, but in this case such is necessary.

I have no desire to replace Old Glory. Forty-eight stars and thirteen stripes marched into Dachau and Mauthausen, signaling the end to some of the most shameful things that people have ever done to others. Old Glory marched with people who sought to end segregation in the South. That flag ideally stands for what is best in our character as a People. I simply want it to stand for such again, and I do not want it shamed with evil deeds of our leaders.

I am KIA 67. So, I am aware of what you did to KIA 67 and so is the moderator of this site. The F-bomb was not pointless, the F-bomb was directed a Bob for a valid reason which most if not all regular folks would recognize/see and understand and not have an issue with the way it was used at all. Unless you're name is Bob, I suggest that you learn how to keep your nose in your own business.

Even the F-bomb has legitimate uses, as in reportage. It is common in people with Tourette's syndrome and among mobsters, and among people who have miserable tasks that they cannot get out of (as is commonly so with soldiers who do make-work just to show how efficient their superiors are). It's like racial slurs: I would expect Ku Kluxers to rhyme the name of Roy Rogers' horse very often.

Quote:You're special, you have illness that requires special treatment and special rules and a special environment for you to function in without being set off or hurt emotionally that results with you doing something foolish to yourself or others. Well, you are breaking rules or ignoring sound advice from your doctor or trained professionals associated with your care. What are you doing here?

We are all special lest we be robots, and I would rather be special in some way different from how I am different. Of course, I would rather have Asperger's than many other mental disorders, including low intelligence, sociopathic or psychopathic disorders, borderline personality, pathological narcissism, sexual perversion, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, punch-drunk syndrome, chemical dependency, or delusional conditions. i simply express myself the wrong way in certain conditions.

I have received no advice to stay away from these Forums from any trained professional in mental health. As far as the treatment that I have gotten for Asperger's a therapist and I concluded that I need to learn to get away with it so that I can have as normal a life as possible.

Quote:If I owned this site, do you think you'd be able to remain posting here? Nope! I wouldn't want the liability of you being around here or places like these. So, we have an issue here. So, unless you're lying which is a possibility here as well. You should consider yourself as having been placed on notice and consider your time posting here as limited.

Would I post here if the forum fit your ideology? F--- no!

Quote:1. Cuss words.  Different strokes for different folks. I work in a blue collar job. Such words are normal in daily discourse. It's also not a good idea to nag folks about them either.

I well know the pattern. Blue-collar workers typically have less formal  education than white-collar workers even if the white-collar workers have low-paying jobs. We do not expect the f-bomb from people dressed up like an executive even if that well-dressed person is earning close to the minimum wage. The fellow working in an auto body shop may be more intelligent and make more money, and have even more formal training, hut the fellow who works in an auto body shop is more likely to do something that causes him some physical pain -- like  falling because he just stepped on an oily patch, getting hit by a hammer on the rebound, or straining a muscle.

Well-educated people have a wide variety of deprecatory words and typically makes fine distinctions between such words. So I concur that it is pointless to make a distinction of social class that includes access to higher education.

Quote:2. |Aspergers. Well, there are 2 folks who have this where I work as well and they cuss, fwiw. As far as I know folks with this condition are not a threat to anyone because of said condition. I even have a relative who has it. None of them gives me any discomfort anyway.

Many people find out after a short time that they want no intimate involvement with me. What would be different about me if I didn't have Asperger's? Probably much more intimacy in life. Considering that a child who gets a double dose from father and mother can have a thoroughly miserable life that includes institutionalization. Maybe it is good that I never latched onto women when I was young.

Quote:3. Issues from the old forum. I can't adjudicate these that arose on the old forum because although I was on the old forum, I was not a moderator or had any special information about what was going on. Since that stuff didn't involve me, I just ignored the whole thing.

Fine.

Quote:4. If this thread doesn't calm down, I'm going to close it. After all, I don't get paid anything and emotion laden personal issues are a fucking pain in the ass.

That is entirely your prerogative, as you are the threadmaster. This thread has gone far off topic anyway.

(12-19-2018, 11:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Please focus on history and politics, not your personal vendettas.  You can in good part measure the quality of the site by how much time is spent on the purpose of the site, and how much on vendettas.

I hope everything isn't a personal vendetta now. As I said, if I had a personal vendetta, I would be coming at you guys like the Devils Advocate. He had a personal vendetta. Believe me, I know but I managed to keep him at bey. If he had it his, you'd all be dead. Me, I see value in good people and prefer to spare the good people. Did we lose good people, yes we did but that happens when good people realize they can't change the bad behavior of their own people. My only regret was Xrteacher. I taught her a valuable lesson about reverse racism and I never saw she her again. I wish she would have stuck around and continued posting. I'm basically here just to see it through to the end. Don't worry, I won't be posting a lot. We've warm weather here. I've been taking a break from a busy fall season. As far as this site, it's not going to last with just blue posters and conservatives aren't going waste their time bickering with a group of blue idiots or clueless. Reds are into value and if they see no value in the competition there is no reason to be here.

(12-19-2018, 11:39 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]1. Cuss words.  Different strokes for different folks. I work in a blue collar job. Such words are normal in daily discourse. It's also not a good idea to nag folks about them either.

2. |Aspergers. Well, there are 2 folks who have this where I work as well and they cuss, fwiw. As far as I know folks with this condition are not a threat to anyone because of said condition. I even have a relative who has it. None of them gives me any discomfort anyway.

3. Issues from the old forum. I can't adjudicate these that arose on the old forum because although I was on the old forum, I was not a moderator or had any special information about what was going on. Since that stuff didn't involve me, I just ignored the whole thing.

4. If this thread doesn't calm down, I'm going to close it. After all, I don't get paid anything and emotion laden personal issues are a fucking pain in the ass.

Dude, in all my years of interacting with people face to face (I'm talking thousands of people) or on telephones. I have never met a decent person who had to gall to tell me how I feel, what I think, what I believe, what I am, what I said or view as true and then call me a liar when I disagree with them. I've had some morons do it with me on the phone. But even the morons understood the consequences or price they'd pay once they were proven wrong. Well, I've had that happen to me a thousand times since I arrived at the old 4t. Now, why are you unable to see that or care? I'm asking you that because its going to start happening more often in real life because someone is teaching it to males. Lets see, we can't swear at them. We can't hit them. We can't be mean to them. All we can do is nothing and try to avoid them. Me, I come and go.  If the site disappears, oh well, so what, I'll find something else that's interesting to occupy my spare time.

You might be here for a while a moderator. A new red or two might show up and drop f-booms on some pesky inconsiderate blues acting like morons. Are you going to ban them for upsetting blues? I realize that you're a volunteer and you don't want to be bothered by trivial stuff or drug into trivial stuff. I only bothered you because you told me to bother. Sorry dude, I'm just following your rules. I could only imagine what life's like catering to the emotional needs and trivial qualms of a bunch of pesky inconsiderate blues who seem to have right that they don't have.

(12-19-2018, 11:39 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]1. Cuss words.  Different strokes for different folks. I work in a blue collar job. Such words are normal in daily discourse.

As an engineer for the military industrial complex, I often visited on various military bases. Funny how the language changed when a senior officer or a female engineer showed up. In addition, since I retired, obscenity is not part of the daily discourse. I for one feel this site should be welcome to all equally.

(12-19-2018, 11:39 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]4. If this thread doesn't calm down, I'm going to close it. After all, I don't get paid anything and emotion laden personal issues are (expletive deleted).

Well, I did say I would use reports regardless of political affiliation or whether a post was addressed to me. Wouldn't want to be called a liar...

(12-20-2018, 03:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, in all my years of interacting with people face to face (I'm talking thousands of people) or on telephones. I have never met  a decent person who had to gall to  tell me how I feel, what I think, what I believe, what I am, what I said  or view as true and then call me a liar when I disagree with them.

Have you tried avoiding slander, not mentioning people by name in posts, keeping personal attack posts very short, not using obscenity, avoiding obvious lies, etc... It might help.

It seems to me that the personal issue could be pulled back to politics.  You could see locker room language as one of the bastions of white male privilege, and rules to make things friendly to all are one response.  It is blue to speak for equality, for a good environment for all.  It is red to say things have gotten too politically correct, and advocate for traditional freedoms for white males at the expense of a minority.

The language aspect of the current spat could thus be turned into politics, more the purpose of this site.

(12-20-2018, 03:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2018, 11:39 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]1. Cuss words.  Different strokes for different folks. I work in a blue collar job. Such words are normal in daily discourse. It's also not a good idea to nag folks about them either.

2. |Aspergers. Well, there are 2 folks who have this where I work as well and they cuss, fwiw. As far as I know folks with this condition are not a threat to anyone because of said condition. I even have a relative who has it. None of them gives me any discomfort anyway.

3. Issues from the old forum. I can't adjudicate these that arose on the old forum because although I was on the old forum, I was not a moderator or had any special information about what was going on. Since that stuff didn't involve me, I just ignored the whole thing.

4. If this thread doesn't calm down, I'm going to close it. After all, I don't get paid anything and emotion laden personal issues are a fucking pain in the ass.

Dude, in all my years of interacting with people face to face (I'm talking thousands of people) or on telephones. I have never met  a decent person who had to gall to  tell me how I feel, what I think, what I believe, what I am, what I said  or view as true and then call me a liar when I disagree with them.

I do not know how others feel. My feelings may not be suitable models for explaining how others feel. What is fairly easy to explain is how people do cognition because intelligence testing says much about people. Someone with an IQ of 130 thinks very differently from someone with an IQ of 75. Which is better? Neither. There have been horrible people with high IQs and good people with low IQs. Unabom killer Ted Kaczynski exemplifies what evil is possible in brilliant people. Fitting into our society? That's easy. Mass culture, politics, religion, advertising, an most work are all designed for the most readily-available people, and hiring the stupid is cheaper than hiring the smart. If you love Beethoven's string quartets or Escher's weird plays with artistic perspective, then consider yourself lucky.

But even at that, I can never feel what others feel because I cannot connect to others' nerves. Not having pancreatic cancer and never having had a third-degree burn, I cannot feel what either feels like -- not that I want to. The most that I can do is give some kind words of encouragement, which fortunately are easy-to-learn bromides. If you have seen the show Star Trek, you may be familiar with the Vulcan mind-meld that allows Spock to  put his hands on someone's neck and experience what the other person (or creature!) feels.  We are not Vulcans, so we must rely upon personal expressions in words and non-verbal communications. Asperger's syndrome makes me utterly inept at understanding non-verbal communications, so I must compensate. Language! Mathematics! Music! Art! My universe is richer in some ways and poorer in others.

Quote:I've had some morons do it with me on the phone. But even the morons understood the consequences or price they'd pay once they were proven wrong.

 
The price to pay for being proved wrong? Some people find the experience either a complete disaster or a learning experience. I prefer the latter. I prefer to not make the same mistake multiple times. I am horrible at facial recognition or 'reading' non-verbal communications, so my understanding can be very literal.

We learn from our mistakes, but it is obviously best to never make certain mistakes -- like smoking, using heroin or cocaine, getting drunk, getting into fist-fights, committing crimes, writing NSF checks, getting involved in Scientology, joining the Klan, putting fingers into sulfuric acid, mixing ammonia with chlorine bleach, provoking Rottweilers by throwing stones at them, trying to start over in some cities in Michigan and Ohio, visiting North Korea... Some mistakes will kill one or get one into big trouble.

Quote:Well, I've had that happen to me a thousand times since I arrived at the old 4t. Now, why are you unable to see that or care? I'm asking you that because its going to start happening more often in real life because someone is teaching it to males. Lets see, we can't swear at them. We can't hit them. We can't be mean to them. All we can do is nothing and try to avoid them. Me, I come and go.  If the site disappears, oh well, so what, I'll find something else that's interesting to occupy my spare time.

What do you get out of using a vile insult at a fellow poster? I may be excessively literal, but I interpret "F--- you!" to mean "Get raped!" It goes with the territory.

It is better that we try to be good to fellow people. Evil hurts because it does more damage than good.

By the way -- should you decide to leave this Forum, we will do well enough without you. There are people that I miss from the old forum and some others.

Quote:You might be here for a while a moderator. A new red or two might show up and drop f-booms on some pesky inconsiderate blues acting like morons. Are you going to ban them for upsetting blues? I realize that you're a volunteer and you don't want to be bothered by trivial stuff or drug into trivial stuff. I only bothered you because you told me to bother. Sorry dude, I'm just following your rules. I could only imagine what life's like catering to the emotional needs and trivial qualms of a bunch of pesky inconsiderate blues who seem to have right that they don't have.

This forum is wholly unsuited to morons. Every forum has its rules, and I have encountered some forums in which I have good cause to avoid. On one, if I were to discuss how great Mendelssohn and Mahler are as composers I would get into big trouble. That is a pro-Nazi forum, and I would be tempted to tell people that I hate Nazis so much that I would rather convert to Judaism than be Nazi scum who think genocide against people who did nothing wrong personally a great service to Humanity.

In time I expect people to appear here in an effort to revive conservatism as an alternative to big-government liberalism. I know their arguments fairly well -- that everything good has a price, including economic growth that changes people's lives generally for the better. Tradition usually has some cause for existence, and when things get crazy and absurd, tradition offers a fresh connection to the tried-and-true. Economic inequality implies rewards for doing things that might be unattractive-but-wholesome risks, doing jobs with objectionable characteristics, deterring gratification, and making genuine investments -- or punishing laziness, destructiveness, vice, and insensitivity. History has value as a guide to avoid making the same mistakes. So if I hear some angry zealot attacking people for their religion I get scared on behalf of the possible results to innocent people. Likewise if I hear some angry zealot claiming that all that is necessary for jump-starting social progress is to dispossess property owners and give everything to the State... I know how that went in Russia in 1917.

As I see things, much of the Right saw fit to hitch its wagon to Donald Trump. That wagon seems headed into a black hole.

(12-20-2018, 08:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]What do you get out of using a vile insult at a fellow poster? I may be excessively literal, but I interpret "F--- you!" to mean "Get raped!" It goes with the territory.

It is better that we try to be good to fellow people. Evil hurts because it does more damage than good.

By the way -- should you decide to leave this Forum, we will do well enough without you. There are people that I miss from the old forum and some others.

F-you simply means "you're wrong" or "no way" or "not me" as it's most commonly used.

(12-19-2018, 04:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2018, 02:41 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]What Blue Scourge exactly?  What is happening on the Left that has you so angry?  If it's Antifa, then give me a break.  They're a small disjointed group of zealots with no real power and not all that much activism.  If, on the other hand, its the general drift of society toward a more open acceptance of <insert the  subset of your choice>, then you're fighting against inevitable change.  Winning, even in the short term, is becoming less likely by the day.  If it's the urban/rural thing, then I'm totally baffled.

I agree, the blue scourge is nothing compared to size of the American right. Antifa is a blue problem and as long as Antifa remains a blue city problem and does not stray then all's good with the American Right.

Antifa is street theater.  How are they a threat, if, in fact, you think they are?  Even the much more violent and threatening White Nationalists are few in number and mostly bags of wind.

(12-19-2018, 06:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2018, 02:18 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Keeping everything Even-Steven is a recipe for inaction … which is essentially the conservative option.  With Trump now occupying that space, that's less true, but it still favors doing nothing rather than something.  We've had 45 years of doing nothing or doing something and reversing it soon after, which ha's left us with a massive infrastructure backlog, near record inequality and no viable response to AGW.  I think I'll pass.

The Republicans don't have option/luxury of doing nothing these days. The Republican inability and willingness to do nothing about relevant resulted in job losses.and forced retirements.

Republicans have been trying their best to steal elections wherever and whenever they can.  I'm not talking about elections; I'm talking about policy.  If you look back at the last 45+ years, when the right has held sway in government, the lack of activism and the degree to which the private sector has been allowed to run wild has given us the worst infrastructure of any advance country (worse than some emerging countries), and degraded the earning power and job security of the lower and middle classes.  Why is that good?

(12-19-2018, 07:12 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]Yup We disagree, to wit.

1. Bread.  Grain and its products are pretty much automated, so I don't see any significant price rises there.

2. Veggies/fruities.  We have farmer's markets here and the blueberries I bought came from Chile. So there is room for the users of illicit labor to go cold turkey for a while until they can mechanize their stuff.

3. The US is stuffed with people compared to Russia and Canada. In addition , the US can't seem to take care of its own. We're a #shithole country you know.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017...nt-poverty
https://www.dailywire.com/news/12001/san...nk-berrien
https://gizmodo.com/reminder-amazon-trea...1792642652

4.  Uh, how would folks starve if we shut down illegal immigration and send the illegal aliens already here back home?  Methinks replacing illegal aliens with citizens would make citizens get more pay due to an engineered worker shortage.

5. Climate change is gonna make for lots of internal refugees.  Like what happens when the Colorado River runs dry, Florida becomes home to the fishes along with lots of beachfront property.

6. Now of course we need to exile Neocons from power so we can leave Latin America alone. The sanctions against Cuba and Valenzuela need to just go the fuck away. It's none of our business how other countries run themselves.

1. An automated industry doesn't look back, so industrial backed goods aren't a big employers anyway.
   
2. Farmer's markets still sell the produce picked by immigrants or imported from abroad.  Having picked grapes as a teen, I know that it's backbreaking work that no one wants ... unless they have no other option.
   
3. We're still underpopulated in the global sense, so we'll just have to disagree.
   
4. Once we put Americans on chicken processing lines, productivity will drop and pay scales will rise.  The same applies to slaughter houses and seafood plants.  It's shitty work.
   
5. Climate change will screw the pooch, top to bottom -- but the bottom will feel it the most.  If you have the resources, you can relocate to the remaining "good" places.
   
6. Here we agree fully.
   

(12-20-2018, 07:03 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I did say I would use reports regardless of political affiliation or whether a post was addressed to me.  Wouldn't want to be called a liar...

Well, as a more honorable and a more objective/pragmatic man, I'll just say that you still have a ways to go to be equal to me so to peak. It is what it is, can't do much to change who we are at this point. I'm sorry that I called you a F-HEAD but in my opinion, you deserved to be called one for obvious reasons to me and anyone decent who may be reading or following me as a poster or some by stander deciding whether or not to participate in political discussions.

I don't really care if the forum resorts back to what it was back in the day. Ain't my forum/business, ain't got my name on it, ain't a reflection of me or my values and so forth. The take over you experienced that you had to adjust to your views and alter your behavior and modify, tweak you're positions and stances to had nothing to do with site ownership or the feeling of taking ownership and controlling a site. What we did was done to prove a point as a matter of principle to show a group of blues how powerless they were against a united front of loyal American citizens who don't view themselves as being anything other than American citizens. Dude, I had minority support and white support. I had Democratic support. I had Libertarian support. I had Evangelical support. I had independent voter support. All of whom, I refer to as being Americans. You're pretty much locked into the blue view but you will adjust for your own good and survival. That my friend, is the truth. I never viewed you as enemy, I viewed you as someone who was exploited and misguided but has been learning and changing and letting go of teachings with the American flow, so to speak.

(12-19-2018, 09:07 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]I think the transnational corporations, CEO's , and fatcats need to pay up first. Why should poor folk sacrifice anything when stuff like Trump's tax cuts are only for his cronies? Let's do this. Let's cut the defense budget by 90% , repeal/replace Trump's tax cuts,  make GM repay their subsidies, delete all tax breaks for everyone, sanction tax shelters, gut patent protections, and pop the cap on social security and Medicare. We also need to exile Neoliberals from power like those fucked up Neocons. I'll be all ears once the above is done. We're not really doing Kennesian stuff now, it's all Milton Friedman's moneterist economics. Zirp and Nirp are all moneterists trash. I hope the Fed raises interest rates back up to 18% so all of our stupid bubbles pop.

Nice thoughts.  If only ...

(12-20-2018, 02:10 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Antifa is street theater.  How are they a threat, if, in fact, you think they are?  Even the much more violent and threatening White Nationalists are few in number and mostly bags of wind.

Antifa is Portland's (a blue city) problem. I don't care, I don't live there and have to put up with them. As far as a threat, I already told you that I view myself as a greater threat to them. I mean, is getting an A from some crazy college professor or a name from some crazy radical really worth dying for? I don't think so but I'm not one of them.

(12-20-2018, 02:17 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Republicans have been trying their best to steal elections wherever and whenever they can.  I'm not talking about elections; I'm talking about policy.  If you look back at the last 45+ years, when the right has held sway in government, the lack of activism and the degree to which the private sector has been allowed to run wild has given us the worst infrastructure of any advance country (worse than some emerging countries), and degraded the earning power and job security of the lower and middle classes.  Why is that good?

Well, you go to France and see if France has as much infrastructure to maintain as The United State of America. I haven't been there but I know they don't have nearly as much to maintain as us. Dude, you keep comparing an Apple to an Orange and you keep saying the two are or should be viewed as the same. I keep telling you or reminding you that they're not the same and shouldn't be viewed that way. Do you have anything other than lame brain arguments to approach me with? If you don't, find someone else to approach with them like your friends.

As far as the rich, I don't have an issue with the rich getting richer. As far as the government, the government has to do a better job managing and prioritizing its spending and remembering who there supposed to serve and whose money their using to pay the bills. As far as policy, the policy makers should know the country they're living in and the primary interests of their countrymen and should stay in line with their those of their countrymen and stick to American principle vs stray off on their own endeavors and imposing their own rules and threatening people like we are seeing today.

(12-20-2018, 02:30 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

1. Climate change will screw the pooch, top to bottom -- but the bottom will feel it the most.  If you have the resources, you can relocate to the remaining "good" places.
   

Well, I figure as long as we have sunlight and water, we'll survive. The Earth has plenty of water and sunlight, so I'm not worried about survival. As far as nations that were built to survive, I think we are living in one if not the only one. So, I'm not worried about that either.

(12-20-2018, 04:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-20-2018, 02:30 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

1. Climate change will screw the pooch, top to bottom -- but the bottom will feel it the most.  If you have the resources, you can relocate to the remaining "good" places.
   

Well, I figure as long as we have sunlight and water, we'll survive. The Earth has plenty of water and sunlight, so I'm not worried about survival. As far as nations that were built to survive, I think we are living in one if not the only one. So, I'm not worried about that either.

You don't need to worry, and Alfred E Newman is a good role model. But.... to be concerned and able to recognize dangers and costs, is at least prudent. Humanity may survive, but there will be great costs incurred due to climate change; including having to relocate many cities (as David says, advantaging those who have the resources), and all places will be vulnerable to constant storms, hurricanes, floods, fires, droughts and heat waves. So it's not a question of survival as if this were a one-time response to an event. This will be a continual need to survive amid constant-increased dangers. And sea life will suffer the most, diminishing our resources from there to near zero, with further effects on climate; and as well, although rainfall will increase at times and places unknown, glaciers will be gone, making water supplies unpredictable. Crops will be impractical to manage amid all the droughts. I expect civilization to fall apart amid much conflict and disaster. And given the poor ability of the USA to choose competent leaders to begin with, I don't have much confidence that the USA will survive this new barbarian situation.

Some hundreds or thousands of years from now, as humanity declines to a population of under 1 billion, and returned to primitive living conditions, carbon pollution will decrease and gradually be returned to the ground, and with other planetary shifts as usually occurs, an ice age will succeed the warming. And because humans will have no carbon fuels left to burn, we will have no way of forestalling this ice age, and as carbon continues to decline, eventually there will be no greenhouse gas protection to regulate temperature, and this may lead to the earth being too cold to support much life, which is its normal condition without CO2.

And for what purpose will we have to endure all of this, which will happen if we continue on the course which Trump and many Republicans recommend? Just, and ONLY, to placate the CEOs of a few dozen fossil fuel companies; that's ALL. And to please libertarian economics believers who think we must placate them or be subject to what they call "socialism" (which means any government involvement in procuring the national welfare interests, IOW all those needs beyond just protection from attack or infiltration by feriners).