Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

** 28-Aug-2020 World View: Boogaloo Bois

(08-28-2020, 02:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]> I would suggest you refer to the Boogaloo Bois rather than
> Antifa.

If I turn on Fox News, I see one video after another of antifa-blm
looting, burning down building, smashing cars, smashing people, in
some cases killing people, and other forms of fascist violence, in one
city after another across the country.

If I turn on CNN or MSNBC, I don't see any of those antifa-blm videos.
But I also don't see videos of the Boogaloo Bois. In fact, I can't
recall ever seeing a video or news story about fascist violence by
Boogaloo Bois.

I googled "Boogaloo Bois violence," and the only thing that came up
was a murder in June.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/boogaloo...d=71295536

That's the only violence I could find. The rest was speculation about
beliefs or whatever.

So if you have any evidence of any kind of fascist violence by the
Boogaloo Bois that comes anywhere close to the massive multi-city
fascist violence by antifa-blm, let me know. I'll take a look at it.

(08-28-2020, 08:42 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]** 28-Aug-2020 World View: Boogaloo Bois

(08-28-2020, 02:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]>   I would suggest you refer to the Boogaloo Bois rather than
>   Antifa.

If I turn on Fox News, I see one video after another of antifa-blm
looting, burning down building, smashing cars, smashing people, in
some cases killing people, and other forms of fascist violence, in one
city after another across the country.

FoX Propaganda Channel is news to the extent that its breaking news is valid. After that, FoX News becomes analysis of the news, and that analysis fits a right-wing agenda set by News Corporation. We would all be happy if we would simply suffer on behalf of the sybaritic indulgence of economic elites, taking consolation in vicarious delight in those elites living like sultans while we live in gross poverty on behalf of monopolists, big landowners (whether of farmland or urban housing), and an executive elite that resembles the old Soviet nomenklatura in its establishment of a bureaucracy that ultimately became hereditary in all but name in handing down power. After all, what central planner would want his kids to work on a collective farm or be a grimy miner or industrial worker when all that one need do is to patronize laborers as the glorious proletariat for the system allegedly works? 

Antifa and Black Lives Matters are, respectively, about opposition to the fascist fringe in America and elsewhere, and brutal treatment of black suspects by law enforcement. A conservative can be as resolutely anti-fascist as anyone and can recognize that anything short of ethnic equity is a menace to the domestic tranquility that conservatives cherish. Black Lives Matters does not offer or endorse any "Get Out of Jail, Free" card to offenders of any ethnicity. It is opposed to trigger-happy cops more likely to misunderstand black people of any kind and assume that any black person whom they are called to arrest is a threat.        

Quote:If I turn on CNN or MSNBC, I don't see any of those antifa-blm videos.
But I also don't see videos of the Boogaloo Bois.  In fact, I can't
recall ever seeing a video or news story about fascist violence by
Boogaloo Bois.

Bugaloo Bois prefer, unlike Kluxists and neo-Nazis, to blend in with the (white) crowd even if that white crowd is hostile to fascsim and police brutality.  They are pieces of work, a violent clique trying to establish some identity. Fascists typically establish their violent behavior before establishing an ideology. Scummy behavior of course discredits whatever ideology or identity one adopts. 
    

Quote:I googled "Boogaloo Bois violence," and the only thing that came up
was a murder in June.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/boogaloo...d=71295536

That's the only violence I could find.  The rest was speculation about
beliefs or whatever.

Wikipedia has an article on the Boogaloo Bois, and the image ain't pretty.

Quote:So if you have any evidence of any kind of fascist violence by the
Boogaloo Bois that comes anywhere close to the massive multi-city
fascist violence by antifa-blm, let me know.  I'll take a look at it.

Antifa is provocative. My impression of Black Lives Matters is that it seeks to form a big tent about making law enforcement more responsible to the communities (including black communities that really need to be spared of the ravages of criminals in their midst). My impression of BLM is that it does not defend rioters and looters. As for rioters and looters, people who take cameras (including cell-phone cameras) to document any police variety or provocation by the Hard Right end up taking images of riot. 

Unlike the Black Power types of the time of the urban riots of the 1960's, Black Lives Matters does not use "oppression"  as an excuse or explanation of such criminal behavior as looting or arson. The sorts of people who want police forces to divest themselves of trigger-happy cops who see blacks as the Enemy include white people undeniably conservative on matters of law enforcement. Torching a car or smashing a shop window isn't tolerable behavior. Black people who endure more than their share of violent crime deserve effective, competent, and fair law enforcement. If you look at crime you typically find one-person crime waves. The person who does one crime and decides that crime is wrong for him or her might get away with one crime (except for murder); most crime is the result of serial offenders (especially burglars) who can eventually be traced to multiple offenses.

*** 30-Aug-20 World View -- South China Sea: Vietnam prepares new lawsuit against China, as China launches missile barrage

This morning's key headlines from GenerationalDynamics.com

• South China Sea tensions soar after China launches missile barrage
  
• Vietnam prepares new arbitration lawsuit against China
  
• The path to war with China
  

****
**** South China Sea tensions soar after China launches missile barrage
****


U-2 spy plane (Reuters)

China's military launched a barrage of ballistic missiles into
the South China Sea on Tuesday, triggering a further escalation of
tensions between China and the United States.

China's state media said that they were DF-21D and DF-26 missiles,
which China developed specifically to target moving American aircraft
carriers, with the ability to adjust their path after launch to follow
the moving carrier. According to the Global Times, "China's DF-26 and
DF-21D are the world's first ballistic missiles capable of targeting
large and medium-sized vessels, earning them the title of 'aircraft
carrier killers.'"

The missile launches set off a flurry of statements on both sides.

According to a Pentagon statement:

<QUOTE>"Conducting military exercises over disputed territory
in the South China Sea is counterproductive to easing tensions and
maintaining stability. The PRC's [China's] actions, including
missile tests, further destabilize the situation in the South
China Sea."<END QUOTE>

According to Chinese military commentators:

<QUOTE>"This is China’s response to the potential risks
brought by the increasingly frequent incoming US warplanes and
military vessels in the South China Sea. China doesn’t want the
neighboring countries to misunderstand Beijing’s goals. ...

The US continues to test China’s bottom line in Taiwan and South
China Sea issues, and this pushed China to showcase its military
strength to let Washington know that even US aircraft carriers
cannot flex their full muscle near China’s coast."<END QUOTE>

The "incoming US warplanes and military vessels" phrase refers to an
American U-2 spy plane sent on Tuesday into an area illegally claimed
by China, and a Freedom of Navigation operation (FONO) by the US guided
missile destroyer USS Mustin near the Paracel Islands, which are
illegally claimed by China.

Laughably, when the FONO operation ended, the Chinese claimed that
they had driven the Mustin away:

<QUOTE>"The USS Mustin, a US Navy guided missile destroyer,
trespassed into the China's territorial waters in the [Paracel]
Islands on Thursday, and the [Chinese military] dispatched naval
and air forces to track, identify and warn it leave, said Senior
Colonel Li Huamin, a spokesperson.

The US ignored the rules of the international law, repeatedly
stirred up troubles in the South China Sea, exercised navigational
hegemony in the name of "freedom of navigation," seriously
undermined China's sovereignty and security interests, and
severely sabotaged the international navigation order in the South
China Sea, Li said.

China has undisputable sovereignty over the islands in the South
China Sea and their adjacent waters in the region, and the command
troops are always on high alert to resolutely protect national
sovereignty and safeguard peace and stability in the region of the
South China Sea, Li said."<END QUOTE>

You know, Dear Reader, writing these articles over the years, I've had
to deal with so many trolls, from China, Russia, Iran, Syria, and
elsewhere, and after a while one just gets tired of the bullshit.
China does not have "indisputable sovereignty" over the islands. They
have no sovereignty whatsoever. The US plus everyone in the region is
disputing it. Furthermore in July 2016, the United Nations Permanent
Court of Arbitration in The Hague ruled that China had no sovereignty,
and that its activities in the South China Sea are illegal.

Furthermore, the Chinese are highly contemptuous of international law
as it applies to them, but they demand that everyone else conform.

As I've said in the past, the Chinese are unique in a highly racist
way, as I described in my book, "War Between China and Japan." While
people in America consider themselves to be ordinary people who were
lucky enough to be born in the greatest nation in world history, the
Chinese Communists view themselves as the Master Race -- yellow race,
black hair, brown eyes, yellow skin -- and the rest of us as
barbarians. They see international law as a way to control us, the
barbarians. They'll sign an international agreement knowing that
they'll violate it at will, because they're the Master Race, and the
rest of us are just there to serve the Chinese.

Since completing my book on China and Japan, I've been working on a
book on the history of Vietnam. It's clear that nobody has a claim on
the South China Sea, but if anyone does, it's Vietnam. Vietnam's
Champa Kingdom, in particular, has been guardian of the sea for
centuries. The Chinese were never interested in it until Chiang
Kai-Shek, an admirer of Adolf Hitler, took an interest in it in 1947,
and decided to claim it just as Hitler had claimed Poland. Mao Zedong
continued to claim it for Communist China.

The whole claim has always been a hoax, based on one lie after
another. One of the biggest lies occurred at a September 25, 2015,
press conference on the White House lawn, where Xi Jinping blatantly
lied to President Barack Obama, saying that China had no intention to
militarize the South China Sea, at a time when China was already moving
rapidly to militarize the South China Sea. This was a significant lie
about a major military matter, and it shows that the thugs in
the Chinese Communist Party are never anything but trolls, even at
the top.

So now the Chinese are still claiming "indisputable sovereignty." After
a while, one just gets sick and tired of listening to all this crap
from the Chinese Communists.

The US retaliated on Wednesday with sanctions, blacklisting 24 Chinese
companies and individuals involved in China's illegal construction and
military actions in the South China Sea.

****
**** Vietnam prepares new arbitration lawsuit against China
****

The Association of Southeast Nations (ASEAN) has ten members: Brunei,
Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines,
Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam.

This association has always worked very hard not to anger China, which
means saying very little about China's illegal claims to the South
China Sea. In particular, very little is said at their meetings about
the 2016 victory by the Philippines at International Tribunal for the
Law of the Sea in the Hague. The ruling declared China's activities
in the South China Sea to be illegal.

However, positions have been hardening this year. The US and
Australia have already issued "notes verbales", or formal diplomatic
requests, to the United Nations, challenging China's claims to the
South China Sea, quoting the 2016 Tribunal ruling. Japan is taking
similar steps.

What's new is that several ASEAN states are also losing their fear
of angering China, and are issuing their own notes. These
include Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam and Brunei.

In particular, Vietnam has been taking steps to file a new lawsuit
with International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea to reaffirm the
2016 decision for the Philippines, and provide additional support for
Vietnam's own claims. This would be politically explosive.

In July 2016, one day after the Hague Tribunal issued its ruling
against China, the Master Race's vice foreign minister Liu Zhenmin
said, "It is just a piece of waste paper. You may just chuck it in the
bin, leave it on the shelf, or put it in archives." Whether it's
China's 1984 agreement on Hong Kong, or China's commitments to
the World Trade Organization, or any other agreement, the
Chinese are contemptuous of all such agreements, and see their
only use as keeping the barbarians (the rest of us) under control.

****
**** The path to war with China
****

China has gotten away with that for decades, as the world kept hoping
that China would slowly turn a liberal democracy. Instead, each year
it's become more and more criminal.

As I'm working on my book on Vietnam, I have to point out one irony.
After the Vietnam war, Vietnam was a hardcore communist country
led by a fanatic, Le Duan. When he died in April 1986, the country
actually did open up and institute many reforms. It's far from
a liberal democracy today, but it has been moving in that direction.

The opposite is true in China. After the 1989 Tiananmen Square
massacre in 1989 and the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the
Chinese Communist Party became paranoid, desperate and belligerent,
increasingly so every year.

Now the world is turning against China, especially after they seeded
hundreds of nations, apparently intentionally, with the Wuhan
Coronavirus, while controlling it with China itself. I've often said
that Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward, which killed 50 million innocent
Chinese for nor reason at all, was the stupidest policy enacted by any
nation in the history of the world. But I may have to change that
opinion now that China has adopted an even stupider policy with regard
to the Wuhan Coronavirus.

So China is becoming increasingly belligerent every year, and the
Western nations are becoming increasingly hostile to China every
year. This has resulted in tit-for-tat confrontations that have
been escalating and will continue to escalate.

These escalating tit-for-tat escalations are exactly the path that
always leads to war. There's no way to stop this, given the
paranoia and desperation of the Chinese Communist thugs.

This past week, China's military launched four "carrier killer" missiles
into the South China Sea, in a "signal" to the United States. That's
just the next escalating step. Sooner or later, it will escalate
to full scale war.

Sources:

• Chinese military fires ‘aircraft-carrier killer’ missile into South China Sea in ‘warning to the United States’ (South China Morning Post, Hong Kong, 26-Aug-2020)
  
• U.S. Targets Chinese Individuals, Firms Amid South China Sea Dispute (Reuters, 26-Aug-2020)
  
• Beijing's vocal stance on US actions in South China Sea aims to paint Washington as aggressor: Experts (Straits Times, Singapore, 28-Aug-2020)
  
• China test fires so-called 'carrier killer' missiles into South China Sea (CNN, 28-Aug-2020)
  
• US says China's South China Sea missile launches threat to peace (Al-Jazeera, 28-Aug-2020)
  
• China Accuses U.S. of Sending U-2 Spy Plane over “No-Fly Zone” (National Interest, 29-Aug-2020)
  
• Donald Trump’s national security adviser calls Beijing’s South China Sea claims ‘ridiculous’ (South China Morning Post, Hong Kong, 29-Aug-2020)
  
• Chinese military expels US destroyer from territorial waters in S.China Sea (Global Times, Beijing, 28-Aug-2020)
  
• Japan, US vow to counter Beijing’s assertiveness in South and East China seas (South China Morning Post, Hong Kong, 29-Aug-2020)
  
• South China Sea: Asean states set course for Beijing’s red line (South China Morning Post, Hong Kong, 22-Aug-2020)
  
• China launches missile attacks on ‘troublemaker’ US as South China Sea war fears surge (London Express, 29-Aug-2020)
  
• South China Sea Is Vietnam now ready to do “a Philippines” against China? (VeraFiles, Manila, 24-Aug-2020)
  
• South China Sea / Like serving China a bite of the forbidden cake (VeraFiles, Manila, 12-Jun-2020)
  
• Vietnam / South China Sea / Protecting the Rules-Based Order at the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (LawFareBlog, 8-May-2020)
  
• Should Vietnam Take China To Arbitration Over the South China Sea? (LawFareBlog, 18-Aug-2020)
  
• China: Military Experts Urge Beijing to Prepare for War with U.S. (Gatestone, 12-Aug-2020)

Related Articles:

• China builds Navy designed to overwhelm the US Navy (05-May-2015)
  
  
• China mocks America's 'Indo-Pacific' strategy at ASEAN meeting (05-Aug-2018)
  
  
• George Soros speech at Davos marks significant global shift against China (27-Jan-2019)
  
  
• MIT criticizes 'toxic atmosphere' targeting Chinese students (30-Jun-2019)
  
  
• Xi Jinping's speech on 'the humiliation of the Chinese nation for centuries' (30-Dec-2018)
  
  
• China's claims to the South China Sea are amazingly vacuous (22-Sep-2018)
  
  
• Xi Jinping invokes the 1840s Opium Wars to justify military action for China's 'rejuvenation' (21-Mar-2018)
  
  
• Britain 'provokes' China by sending warship into South China Sea (07-Sep-2018)
  
  
• Philippines humiliates China in harsh Hague Tribunal ruling over South China Sea (13-Jul-2016)
  
  
• Gleeful China wins big Hong Kong victory at UN Human Rights Council (05-Jul-2020)
  
  
• Generational Theory: Is nuclear war with China inevitable? (17-May-2020)
  
  
• CNBC's Jim Cramer: Hostility to China grows in America (27-Apr-2020)
  

KEYS: Generational Dynamics, China, South China Sea,
DF-21D, DF-26, U-2 spy plane, USS Mustin, Xi Jinping,
Association of Southeast Nations, ASEAN, Brunei,
Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines,
Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, Australia,
International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea

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** 29-Aug-2020 World View: Chechnya and Belarus

Guest Wrote:> No one starved to death when I was fighting in Chechnya against
> the invading Russian army. People got really thin during the siege
> of Grozny, but no one starved to death. Outside of violent deaths,
> the number one, two, and three killer was waterborne illness/
> infection. It almost killed me. Some form of infection will kill
> you quickly. When the electricity goes out and the pumps will go
> dead. Most will die of infection before they starve to death.

> P.S. I have gone as long as nine days without any food at all. I
> don't understand the prepper talk about after missing a few meals
> people become cannibals. I missed dozens. I never became a
> cannibal or even stole food. Chechen men waited to eat until every
> woman and child had eaten first. Chechens are different from the
> pathological deviants which populate western ghettos.

Russian officials are prone to accuse others of cannibalism since
there was cannibalism by the Russians themselves during the siege of
Leningrad during WW II.

What is your view of what's going on in Belarus right now?

** 29-Aug-2020 World View: The Dance

Higgenbotham Wrote:> It's interesting that most Wall Street analysts have S&P price
> targets below the current level of the market. Just read that last
> week Citi raised their year end S&P price target from 2900 to
> 3300. Ed Yardeni is usually pretty bullish and his year end target
> was 3500 last I saw. Another person who's usually pretty bullish
> is Tony Dwyer and he's simply maintaining a target of 3300+ last I
> saw. That doesn't imply his target is close to 3300; he's just
> saying that in this environment it is too difficult to accurately
> set an upper target, if I understand correctly.

Higgy, I'm sure you're already aware of what I'm about to say, but
it's worth saying anyway. I listen to all these guys on CNBC and
other channels, and it's obvious that they're all completely full of
crap. I don't care if it's Yardeni, Dwyer, or any of the others. They
don't have the vaguest clue what's going on, and they'll say whatever
they have to say to get on TV.

Actually, there is one "expert" whose quote was accurate. This was in
2007, and Citigroup’s chief executive, Charles O. Prince, said he's
still going full steam ahead with credit and leveraged deals, because
"As long as the music is playing, you’ve got to get up and
dance. We’re still dancing."

That was true then, and it's true today, even though the dance is
really "The Dance of the Musical Chairs."

** 30-Aug-2020 World View: Fascist clashes

For weeks, there have been growing incidents of looting and destroying
hundreds of small businesses, many black owned, burning buildings,
smashing cars, smashing people, killing people and other violence by
the antifa-blm fascists in cities across the country with Democratic
party mayors.

The Democrats and mainstream media have been pretending that this
increasing fascist violence doesn't exist, for obvious reasons.

But today, things are changing. Now that there have been pro-Trump
vigilante groups clashing with the antifa-blm fascists in Portland and
Kenosha, the Democrats and mainstream media are suddenly able to
report the violence, since they can blame it on Trump.

Isn't this wonderful? Maybe we'll soon be treated to antifa-blm
fascists clashing with tea-partier-trump-supporter fascists and
killing each other in streets across the country. Won't that be fun?

(08-30-2020, 12:52 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]For weeks, there have been growing incidents of looting and destroying hundreds of small businesses, many black owned, burning buildings, smashing cars, smashing people, killing people and other violence by the antifa-blm fascists in cities across the country with Democratic party mayors.

The Democrats and mainstream media have been pretending that this increasing fascist violence doesn't exist, for obvious reasons.

But today, things are changing.  Now that there have been pro-Trump vigilante groups clashing with the antifa-blm fascists in Portland and Kenosha, the Democrats and mainstream media are suddenly able to report the violence, since they can blame it on Trump.

Isn't this wonderful?  Maybe we'll soon be treated to antifa-blm fascists clashing with tea-partier-trump-supporter fascists and killing each other in streets across the country.  Won't that be fun?

Since when has caring about black lives made one a fascist?  If anything, the old fascists were for mass official murder of minorities that they opposed.  That is about the exact opposite of what Black Lives Matter stands for, equality, justice and due process for all.

Again, Antifa is anti fascist.  When the KKK and the Neo Nazi disappeared their mission was accomplished.  I am aware that those inside your bubble are attaching their name to other motivations, but you are trying to pretend to be objective?  You can’t push an ideological scheme and be objective.

Now there are those who believe the capitalist democratic system has failed, and they would start using violence as the only way to change.  Push the boogaloo.  That motive definitely exists.  You just ought to attribute that motive to people who claim it.  I find the basic premise Marxist.  The Boogaloo Bois are less into theory, and avoid association with past violent revolutions as the results have been horrible. Still, that is one indication the Bois should be put on the left, while they are generally placed on the right.  Still, I believe the left right labels break down as motivations get well clear of acceptance of the capitalist - democratic system.  Other than to express my doubts, folks can label them as they like.

The Tea Party was motivated to push the Republican agenda getting rid of the elitist affinity.  They sort of ceased to exist when they shifted loyalty to an elitist.  The Republican base use to be the Tea Party, but that term has about disappeared since Trump came on the scene.  That doesn’t make them fascist.  The current Trump followers are more of a personality cult than anything else.  Intense loyalty to the Leader alone does not make them fascist.  That is just the old intellectual laziness.  All Republican are supposedly fascist.  All democrats are equally communist.  Ugh.  I have been grumbling about that bad habit for years.  I have no trouble telling the difference between the groups of last crisis and this one.  

How precisely do you define ‘fascist’?  You seem ready to throw the term around lightly.  Anyone willing to divide folks into us and them and use violence against them to achieve status, power and wealth?  If so, most everyone who uses violence on others qualify.  It isn't that simple.  It isn't how most use the term.

** 30-Aug-2020 World View: Fascist

(08-30-2020, 02:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]> How precisely do you define ‘fascist’?

Looting and destroying hundreds of small businesses, many black owned,
burning buildings, smashing cars, smashing people, killing people and
similar violence.

(08-30-2020, 02:48 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-30-2020, 02:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]How precisely do you define ‘fascist’?

Looting and destroying hundreds of small businesses, many black owned, burning buildings, smashing cars, smashing people, killing people and similar violence.

So that is your non-ideological objective definition? As there were few black owned people owning business in Europe, Hitler and Mussolini were not fascist? It seems your definition is highly revisionist and heavily ideological. Are you sure?

No wonder you aren't taken seriously.

CNN has a more serious post up about the meaning of fascism.  Curiously, he seems to care more about Trump and his followers than the Neo Nazi.  Most of the groups you labeled as fascist wouldn't fit at all.

** 30-Aug-2020 World View: Fascists

Here's something for you to think about.

You people on the loony left freely say that President Trump is a
White Supremacist, even though you know that's a lie.

You people on the loony left freely say that 63 million Tea Partiers
and Trump supporters are racists, even though you know that's a lie.

So now you're getting all weepy because your antifa-blm pals, who are
looting, burning, pillaging, and committing other fascist acts in
Democrat cities across the country, are being called "fascist."

Well, suck it up pal.

(08-30-2020, 05:28 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]You people on the loony left freely say that President Trump is a White Supremacist, even though you know that's a lie.

Not sure it is a lie.  A long time ago he tried to exclude minorities from his and his fathers's properties.  More lately he allied with those fine people in the KKK and Neo Nazi.  I think part of it might be calculated.  He just wants to collect the racist vote, which is not quite the same as being a racist.  No better morally, but not the same.

(08-30-2020, 05:28 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]You people on the loony left freely say that 63 million Tea Partier and Trump supporters are racists, even though you know that's a lie.

Not all of the Republican base are racist, but some are.  I think most would agree with that.  There are some conservatives with integrity who came to their views honestly without being tainted by the not unusual racist or elitist taint.  Look at groups like Republican Voters Against Trump or the Lincoln Project.

(08-30-2020, 05:28 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]So now you're getting all weepy because your antifa-blm pals, who are looting, burning, pillaging, and committing other fascist acts in Democrat cities across the country, are being called "fascist."

Not fascists. That is just you shifting motives with your propaganda.  No one is weeping here for the Boogaloo Bois.  Not even weeping for Antifa.  The KKK and Neo Nazi have become inactive since Black Lives Matter went critical.  Mission accomplished for the Antifa.  Again, you are showing a total lack of understating of motive.  To extent that conservatives in their propaganda shift motives around makes me more angry than weepy.

CNN's expert on fascism came up with ten attributes of the movement.  A mythic past, Propaganda, Anti Intellectualism, Unreality, Hierarchy, Victimhood, Law and order. Sexual Anxiety, Sodom and Gomorrah, and Arbeit Macht Frei….  (Work shall set you free.)  Trump hits some of them, but no one would claim he is a duplicate of Hitler or Mussolini.  Got to admit that his reactions to woman are sometimes funny.

(08-30-2020, 12:52 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]** 30-Aug-2020 World View: Fascist clashes

For weeks, there have been growing incidents of looting and destroying hundreds of small businesses, many black owned, burning buildings, smashing cars, smashing people, killing people and other violence by the antifa-blm fascists in cities across the country with Democratic party mayors.

The Democrats and mainstream media have been pretending that this increasing fascist violence doesn't exist, for obvious reasons.

But today, things are changing.  Now that there have been pro-Trump vigilante groups clashing with the antifa-blm fascists in Portland and Kenosha, the Democrats and mainstream media are suddenly able to report the violence, since they can blame it on Trump.

Isn't this wonderful?  Maybe we'll soon be treated to antifa-blm fascists clashing with tea-partier-trump-supporter fascists and killing each other in streets across the country.  Won't that be fun?

Painting with your typical narrow brush, and one decidedly the wrong color. Are Antifa violent? Yes, but not at anywhere near the level you seem to believe. In fact, the violence emerges predominantly from the right.

(08-30-2020, 06:23 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-30-2020, 05:28 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]You people on the loony left freely say that 63 million Tea Partier and Trump supporters are racists, even though you know that's a lie.

Not all of the Republican base are racist, but some are.  I think most would agree with that.  There are some conservatives with integrity who came to their views honestly without being tainted by the not unusual racist or elitist taint.  Look at groups like Republican Voters Against Trump or the Lincoln Project.

I live in an area that's crimson red, and, yes, many of these folks are racists though most are just scared to death. The fearmongering has done its job very well. They have consumed the Kool-Aid by the gallon, and only believe something if it comes from Trump or Fox News -- even disbelieving things that are blatantly obvious. We used to discuss things. Now any talk that crosses arbitrary political boundaries becomes fighting words.

Some of these people are friends of long standing, but Trumpism is making them angry and hateful. I'm not sure if agreeing-to-disagree is even viable anymore with most of them. I'm also afraid that, like Anne Applebaum and her husband, maintaining friendships may be impossible.

(08-31-2020, 09:24 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-30-2020, 12:52 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]** 30-Aug-2020 World View: Fascist clashes

For weeks, there have been growing incidents of looting and destroying hundreds of small businesses, many black owned, burning buildings, smashing cars, smashing people, killing people and other violence by the antifa-blm fascists in cities across the country with Democratic party mayors.

The Democrats and mainstream media have been pretending that this increasing fascist violence doesn't exist, for obvious reasons.

But today, things are changing.  Now that there have been pro-Trump vigilante groups clashing with the antifa-blm fascists in Portland and Kenosha, the Democrats and mainstream media are suddenly able to report the violence, since they can blame it on Trump.

Isn't this wonderful?  Maybe we'll soon be treated to antifa-blm fascists clashing with tea-partier-trump-supporter fascists and killing each other in streets across the country.  Won't that be fun?

Painting with your typical narrow brush, and one decidedly the wrong color.  Are Antifa violent? Yes, but not at anywhere near the level you seem to believe. In fact, the violence emerges predominantly from the right.

Paradoxically, rioters cannot legitimately trust Black Lives Matters protesters as allies. Police brutality as against the late George Floyd has some conservative opposition, and such conservative opposition to police brutality gives no carte blanche to looting, assault, or arson. Yes, it is well past time to take down  statues praising Confederate military and political leaders whom the Southern racist established as heroes... about a hundred years ago. Considering that those statues were usually erected about fifty years after the end of the Civil War, about when the second KKK formed, those are more expressions of hurt feelings than of heroism. Those figures depict people who dragooned large numbers of poor white youth as cannon fodder to prevent the emancipation of slaves. 

I can only imagine what a black child sees in such statues, as those are often in the areas in which the population is now majority-black. Can people who strove to keep one's black ancestors in bondage be heroes? Such statues would be as offensive to blacks who align themselves with real heroes who struggled against Jim Crow as statues to Nazis and Stalinists would be in central or Balkan Europe today. 

I have my idea of how to display the Confederate flag. Aside from memorials to Confederate dead from the Civil War... I suggest that it be disgraced, placed with these flags:



(Stalin-era variant)



(war flag of the Salo Republic, Nazi puppet state in Italy)







(two defunct commie regimes)



(a Commie regime which I wish were defunct -- the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, which is not democratic by any means, badly treats the Korean people unfortunate enough to live there, and is really an absolute, hereditary monarchy)


  

the Apartheid flag




flag associated with Satan Hussein





ISIS flag -- illegal in the German Federal Republic as an expression of an "extreme right, neo-Nazi cause"...  

and one other all-too-obvious flag also illegal in the German Federal Republic

** 02-Sep-2020 World View: NYC Mayor de Blasio: Help me tax the wealthy

If you watch the news, you can see that every day, New York City
becomes more dangerous and more disgusting than it was the day before.
When Rudy Giuliani was mayor, he turned the city into the safest and
cleanest in its history. The current mayor has completely reversed
Giuliani's accomplishment.

Here's what NY city mayor Bill de Blasio said a couple of days ago in
an interview, addressing the people of his city:

Quote:> "You really want to change things in this city? Then
> everyone better change a lot of the way we live more
> foundationally. If you just talk about it and feel
> self-satisfied, God bless you. That is not actually going to
> change things. What changes things is redistribution of
> wealth. Tax the wealthy at a much higher level. And I just feel
> like this is a lot of cocktail party comfort going on rather than
> people honestly dealing with this issue. Help me tax the wealthy,
> help me redistribute wealth, help me build affordable housing in
> white communities if you want desegregation."
> https://grabien.com/story.php?id=304158

This man is certifiably crazy, and I really mean that. He's like a
man who gets pleasure in beating the crap out of his own wife. The
more destructive he is, the more satisfied he is. This isn't an
"ideology." This is a severe mental illness.

De Blasio reminds of the destruction of Venezuela by Hugo Chávez and
Nicolás Maduro. Venezuela is one of the wealthiest countries in the
world because of its oil reserves, but Maduro has destroyed his
country in the same way and for the same reason that a man might beat
the crap out of his wife.

Another example is Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe was an extremely wealthy
country in the 1990s, and grew so much food that it was called "the
breadbasket of southern Africa." Then Robert Mugabe started
destroying Zimbabwe in the same way and with the same mental illness
that Maduro destroyed Venezuela and de Blasio is destroying NY City.
Today, thanks to Mugabe and his mental illness, the people living in
the former breadbasket of southern Africa are facing starvation.

The same thing is happening in Portland. The city is being trashed
every day by violent mobs of antifa-blm fascist thugs, and the mayor
and government are actively supporting the trashing by stating that
none of the antifa-blm fascists will be prosecuted for any crimes they
commit.

Encouraging and supporting fascist mobs who destroy your own city is
not some political ideology. It's a sign of severe mental illness,
whether by Ted Wheeler (Portland), Jenny Durkan (Seattle), Lori
Lightfoot (Chicago), Muriel Bowser (Washington D.C.), Bill De Blasio
(NY City). These people get some sort of erotic pleasure out of
feeling all-powerful and superior to the rest of us, and using their
power to bring about the destruction of their own cities, just like
men who feel power and get erotic pleasure out of beating the crap out
of their wives or raping their daughters and supporting each other.
These are sick, mentally ill people, and there's no telling how much
destruction they'll bring about before they're through.

These are all Democrats, and there's a historical analogy from a
century ago, when Democrats got erotic pleasure out of seeing the
thugs from their own KKK organization go out and lynch, torture, rape
and kill blacks. A century ago, the Democrats got erotic pleasure out
of seeing their fascist KKK thugs lynch, torture, rape and kill
blacks, and today, the Democrats get erotic pleasure out of seeing
their fascist antifa-blm thugs beat, trash and destroy the hated 63
million Tea Partiers and Trump supporters. What's old is new again.

(09-02-2020, 03:54 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]Encouraging and supporting fascist mobs who destroy your own city is not some political ideology.  It's a sign of severe mental illness, whether by Ted Wheeler (Portland), Jenny Durkan (Seattle), Lori Lightfoot (Chicago), Muriel Bowser (Washington D.C.), Bill De Blasio (NY City).  These people get some sort of erotic pleasure out of
feeling all-powerful and superior to the rest of us, and using their power to bring about the destruction of their own cities, just like men who feel power and get erotic pleasure out of beating the crap out of their wives or raping their daughters and supporting each other.  These are sick, mentally ill people, and there's no telling how much destruction they'll bring about before they're through.

These are all Democrats, and there's a historical analogy from a century ago, when Democrats got erotic pleasure out of seeing the thugs from their own KKK organization go out and lynch, torture, rape and kill blacks.  A century ago, the Democrats got erotic pleasure out of seeing their fascist KKK thugs lynch, torture, rape and kill blacks, and today, the Democrats get erotic pleasure out of seeing their fascist antifa-blm thugs beat, trash and destroy the hated 63 million Tea Partiers and Trump supporters.  What's old is new again.

Hmm.  I guess these two paragraphs are enough to start.

In Portland, you have three right wing organizations causing bad trouble.  I add the word bad, as to distinguish it from what John Lewis called good trouble.  Anyway, the Trump followers, the Boogaloo Bois and the bad cops are causing bad trouble.  All have reasons to promote violence, even if some of the reasons are considered wrong by many.  The blue government, Black Lives Matter and the good cops are trying to stop it.  The blues have to pay the costs for what the extreme red factions do.  The problem isn’t with the blues.

I'll add that you have added a very new and highly non standard definition of 'fascst' to score points, but I have already commented on that.

A century plus in the past the Democrats were the rural racist faction fighting to continue slavery then to promote Jim Crow inequality.  Things have changed since then.  The blame still goes to the rural racist faction which still exists, even if they have switched to the other party over the years.  If you do not acknowledge the change, you can score some debate points at the expense of loosing your credibility among those who have studied history.

I could go on, but one question first.  Is it that you are that selective in studying history and analyzing the situation, or are you that dedicated to scoring points with those already in your bubble that the loss of credibility among those who have studied the situation doesn’t matter?

(09-02-2020, 07:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-02-2020, 03:54 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]Encouraging and supporting fascist mobs who destroy your own city is not some political ideology.  It's a sign of severe mental illness, whether by Ted Wheeler (Portland), Jenny Durkan (Seattle), Lori Lightfoot (Chicago), Muriel Bowser (Washington D.C.), Bill De Blasio (NY City).  These people get some sort of erotic pleasure out of feeling all-powerful and superior to the rest of us, and using their power to bring about the destruction of their own cities, just like men who feel power and get erotic pleasure out of beating the crap out of their wives or raping their daughters and supporting each other.  These are sick, mentally ill people, and there's no telling how much destruction they'll bring about before they're through.

These are all Democrats, and there's a historical analogy from a century ago, when Democrats got erotic pleasure out of seeing the thugs from their own KKK organization go out and lynch, torture, rape and kill blacks.  A century ago, the Democrats got erotic pleasure out of seeing their fascist KKK thugs lynch, torture, rape and kill blacks, and today, the Democrats get erotic pleasure out of seeing their fascist antifa-blm thugs beat, trash and destroy the hated 63 million Tea Partiers and Trump supporters.  What's old is new again.

Hmm.  I guess these two paragraphs are enough to start.

In Portland, you have three right wing organizations causing bad trouble.  I add the word bad, as to distinguish it from what John Lewis called good trouble.  Anyway, the Trump followers, the Boogaloo Bois and the bad cops are causing bad trouble.  All have reasons to promote violence, even if some of the reasons are considered wrong by many.  The blue government, Black Lives Matter and the good cops are trying to stop it.  The blues have to pay the costs for what the extreme red factions do.  The problem isn’t with the blues.

"Good trouble" -- one challenges entrenched evil (cruelty, perverse traditions, inequity) that have fading strength but years of entrenchment behind them. "Bad trouble" is evil, new or old. I expect law enforcement to do its duty, and that means that crooks connected to the President and violent provocateurs will face arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment. I expect huge reforms in techniques of law enforcement. 

We are going to need negotiations between law enforcement and such reputable groups as the NAACP cutting deals. Obviously nobody has the right to provoke the police with an attack. Maybe we make the system more lenient in practice toward blacks... or less lenient toward white suspects. 

Quote:I'll add that you (X) have added a very new and highly non standard definition of 'fascist' to score points, but I have already commented on that.

I have seen the expression "red fascists" applied to Commie fanatics. I have my snide definition of fascism as Bolshevik techniques (of terror, repression, and propaganda) in the service of an economic agenda of entrenched elites. Aristocratic elites, warmongers, and rapacious tycoons may have found the Bolsheviki as unspeakable evil for confiscating the wealth of people like them before either forcing such people to flee or liquidating them... well, if only they could have people willing to liquidate people who don't concur with monopoly, brutal management, and near-starvation pay that maximize profits... If someone wants to call Maoists, the Shining Path, or the Khmer Rouge "Red Fascists", then at least one has the body count or extremist rhetoric as justification.

What X considers the "Left" wants at the most radical a "social market" society... a prosperous society that considers prosperity for the working classes a good idea instead of a frustration of maximal gain, indulgence, or power of some "right" people who... well, we know who they are already.     

Quote:A century plus in the past the Democrats were the rural racist faction fighting to continue slavery then to promote Jim Crow inequality.  Things have changed since then.  The blame still goes to the rural racist faction which still exists, even if they have switched to the other party over the years.  If you do not acknowledge the change, you can score some debate points at the expense of loosing your credibility among those who have studied history.

I could go on, but one question first.  Is it that you are that selective in studying history and analyzing the situation, or are you that dedicated to scoring points with those already in your bubble that the loss of credibility among those who have studied the situation doesn’t matter?

People and organizations have changed sides. Self-appellation is not invariably reliable. Language either excessively laudatory or derisive (such are characteristic of Orwellian Newspeak) must be checked for validity and not accepted at face value. 

And... yes... beware of language that covers something with a very different meaning. Much Apartheid legislation in South Africa came under the cover of the Suppression of Communism Act. Because collective bargaining keeps employers from exploiting individual workers' incompetence in negotiating with specially-trained executives and specialists in finding such weaknesses, workers whose productivity is machine-paced need collective bargaining to avoid a race to the bottom in pay and thus unions; Big Business promotes "right-to-work" legislation intend on destroying collective bargaining and exploiting such weaknesses.     Dubya's Healthy Forests Initiative  was an endorsement of the much-deprecated clear-cutting of forests, and No Child Left Behind seems to have the objective of ensuring that kids are prepared solely to take an initial placement in a low-paying dead-end job and be happy with such.  Beware of platitudes and oxymora, commonplace elements of Newspeak.

(09-03-2020, 11:30 AM)O pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-02-2020, 07:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-02-2020, 03:54 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: [ -> ]Encouraging and supporting fascist mobs who destroy your own city is not some political ideology.  It's a sign of severe mental illness, whether by Ted Wheeler (Portland), Jenny Durkan (Seattle), Lori Lightfoot (Chicago), Muriel Bowser (Washington D.C.), Bill De Blasio (NY City).  These people get some sort of erotic pleasure out of feeling all-powerful and superior to the rest of us, and using their power to bring about the destruction of their own cities, just like men who feel power and get erotic pleasure out of beating the crap out of their wives or raping their daughters and supporting each other.  These are sick, mentally ill people, and there's no telling how much destruction they'll bring about before they're through.

These are all Democrats, and there's a historical analogy from a century ago, when Democrats got erotic pleasure out of seeing the thugs from their own KKK organization go out and lynch, torture, rape and kill blacks.  A century ago, the Democrats got erotic pleasure out of seeing their fascist KKK thugs lynch, torture, rape and kill blacks, and today, the Democrats get erotic pleasure out of seeing their fascist antifa-blm thugs beat, trash and destroy the hated 63 million Tea Partiers and Trump supporters.  What's old is new again.

Hmm.  I guess these two paragraphs are enough to start.

In Portland, you have three right wing organizations causing bad trouble.  I add the word bad, as to distinguish it from what John Lewis called good trouble.  Anyway, the Trump followers, the Boogaloo Bois and the bad cops are causing bad trouble.  All have reasons to promote violence, even if some of the reasons are considered wrong by many.  The blue government, Black Lives Matter and the good cops are trying to stop it.  The blues have to pay the costs for what the extreme red factions do.  The problem isn’t with the blues.

"Good trouble" -- one challenges entrenched evil (cruelty, perverse traditions, inequity) that have fading strength but years of entrenchment behind them. "Bad trouble" is evil, new or old. I expect law enforcement to do its duty, and that means that crooks connected to the President and violent provocateurs will face arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment. I expect huge reforms in techniques of law enforcement. 

We are going to need negotiations between law enforcement and such reputable groups as the NAACP cutting deals. Obviously nobody has the right to provoke the police with an attack. Maybe we make the system more lenient in practice toward blacks... or less lenient toward white suspects. 

Quote:I'll add that you (X) have added a very new and highly non standard definition of 'fascist' to score points, but I have already commented on that.

I have seen the expression "red fascists" applied to Commie fanatics. I have my snide definition of fascism as Bolshevik techniques (of terror, repression, and propaganda) in the service of an economic agenda of entrenched elites. Aristocratic elites, warmongers, and rapacious tycoons may have found the Bolsheviki as unspeakable evil for confiscating the wealth of people like them before either forcing such people to flee or liquidating them... well, if only they could have people willing to liquidate people who don't concur with monopoly, brutal management, and near-starvation pay that maximize profits... If someone wants to call Maoists, the Shining Path, or the Khmer Rouge "Red Fascists", then at least one has the body count or extremist rhetoric as justification.

What X considers the "Left" wants at the most radical a "social market" society... a prosperous society that considers prosperity for the working classes a good idea instead of a frustration of maximal gain, indulgence, or power of some "right" people who... well, we know who they are already.     

Quote:A century plus in the past the Democrats were the rural racist faction fighting to continue slavery then to promote Jim Crow inequality.  Things have changed since then.  The blame still goes to the rural racist faction which still exists, even if they have switched to the other party over the years.  If you do not acknowledge the change, you can score some debate points at the expense of loosing your credibility among those who have studied history.

I could go on, but one question first.  Is it that you are that selective in studying history and analyzing the situation, or are you that dedicated to scoring points with those already in your bubble that the loss of credibility among those who have studied the situation doesn’t matter?

People and organizations have changed sides. Self-appellation is not invariably reliable. Language either excessively laudatory or derisive (such are characteristic of Orwellian Newspeak) must be checked for validity and not accepted at face value. 

And... yes... beware of language that covers something with a very different meaning. Much Apartheid legislation in South Africa came under the cover of the Suppression of Communism Act. Because collective bargaining keeps employers from exploiting individual workers' incompetence in negotiating with specially-trained executives and specialists in finding such weaknesses, workers whose productivity is machine-paced need collective bargaining to avoid a race to the bottom in pay and thus unions; Big Business promotes "right-to-work" legislation intend on destroying collective bargaining and exploiting such weaknesses.     Dubya's Healthy Forests Initiative  was an endorsement of the much-deprecated clear-cutting of forests, and No Child Left Behind seems to have the objective of ensuring that kids are prepared solely to take an initial placement in a low-paying dead-end job and be happy with such.  Beware of platitudes and oxymora, commonplace elements of Newspeak.

Most of the traditional conservative mindset will tell you that there’s a time to work and a time to play. This goes all the way back to biblical times and became the crux of a passage which in the 1960s was turned into a popular song. But since the 1980s the concept has been taken to extreme where the most likely scenario for rising midlife Boomers was that they’ve probably got their heads down to concentrate on their work. Sharp contrast to the mindset of the free love days. Also made liars out of a lot of futurists who has predicted a trend toward ever increasing leisure. Still waiting. More than likely in today’s workplace you don’t have time to waste talking about what needs to be finished with colleagues; you focus on the job and get it done. That’s what I try my darnedest to do on my food deliveries. Many lament the loss of the proverbial pat on the back for a job well done. That’s why I started a thread here about overturning at will employment. But I would be surprised if anything will happen anytime soon as no policy makers even bring this up. Something would need to be done at the federal level for it to succeed I do believe.