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(03-12-2020, 12:39 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2020, 06:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]...President Trump made a phone call to the President of Ukraine and tried to get him to initiate a highly-publicized prosecution of an opponent's son...

No, Trump asked Zelensky to initiate a highly an investigation on the son of a former US government official*, after said former government official is on tape bragging that he had a prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's company. Very different. I think Plagiarism Joe's crack addict son should be investigated. Why don't you?

*and the stepson of another former US government official (Senator and Secretary of State), and the friend of a current Senator, but that's another story.

I can assure you that effective prosecutions have secretive investigations that leave the suspect in the dark and let the suspect act as if he is getting away with deeds that ultimately incriminate him.  Besides, a good prosecutor does whatever is necessary to avoid prejudicing a jury in a way that might set up an appeal. The defendant is usually arrested when he tries to escape prosecution (typically flight), when caught in flagrante delicto, or when his behavior becomes too dangerous to tolerate. 

Announcing an investigation to the media before the investigation has begun is inept prosecution unless one has an "enemies of the people" campaign as in the Third Reich or the old Soviet Union, in which case the defendant is doomed from the start in a political entity in which nobody is safe.

Well, Ukraine has made huge breaks from the old Soviet Union and its practices (much in contrast to Belarus!) because, in part, the FBI is more effective in nailing mobsters (Ukraine has a big problem with the Russian Mafia) than was the KGB. It is a choice between finesse and brutality in law enforcement.
(03-12-2020, 12:39 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2020, 06:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]...President Trump made a phone call to the President of Ukraine and tried to get him to initiate a highly-publicized prosecution of an opponent's son...

No, Trump asked Zelensky to initiate a highly an investigation on the son of a former US government official*, after said former government official is on tape bragging that he had a prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's company. Very different. I think Plagiarism Joe's crack addict son should be investigated. Why don't you?

*and the stepson of another former US government official (Senator and Secretary of State), and the friend of a current Senator, but that's another story.

Really?  The prosecutor that was pushed out was corrupt by everyone's standards (maybe not yours, though).  The President was also corrupt, which allowed Zelensky a shot at toppling him.  


Get your timeline and players straight, will you?  You did the same thing with the missile discussion.
(03-12-2020, 03:01 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2020, 12:39 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2020, 06:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]...President Trump made a phone call to the President of Ukraine and tried to get him to initiate a highly-publicized prosecution of an opponent's son...

No, Trump asked Zelensky to initiate a highly an investigation on the son of a former US government official*, after said former government official is on tape bragging that he had a prosecutor fired who was investigating his son's company. Very different. I think Plagiarism Joe's crack addict son should be investigated. Why don't you?

*and the stepson of another former US government official (Senator and Secretary of State), and the friend of a current Senator, but that's another story.

Really?  The prosecutor that was pushed out was corrupt by everyone's standards (maybe not yours, though).  The President was also corrupt, which allowed Zelensky a shot at toppling him.  


Get your timeline and players straight, will you?  You did the same thing with the missile discussion.
-My timeline is straight.

Obama asks Putin (through his sock puppet Medvedev) to help him out so he could get reelected. A little later, Obama even mocked Romney for describing Russia as a threat. Remember? The Russians did go easy on him, and Obama gave the Russians what they wanted regarding Eastern European missile defense. \

-Shokin was corrupt? Really? Can you tell me what he did?

You're also claiming that Poroshenko was corrupt. Poroshenko, who quid prop quo Joe and drug addict Hunter were happy to deal with, and who broke Ukrainian law to the DNC against the Trump campaign 2016. I won't argue with you on that one. But you think it was somehow corrupt that Trump would want to look into this. Huh. Oh well. Good luck.
(03-16-2020, 03:10 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2020, 03:01 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Really?  The prosecutor that was pushed out was corrupt by everyone's standards (maybe not yours, though).  The President was also corrupt, which allowed Zelensky a shot at toppling him.  

Get your timeline and players straight, will you?  You did the same thing with the missile discussion.
Obama asks Putin (through his sock puppet Medvedev) to help him out so he could get reelected.

Nowhere has a credible argument been made that this is true.  If you have a citation, provide it.

JDG 66 Wrote:A little later, Obama even mocked Romney for describing Russia as a threat. Remember? The Russians did go easy on him, and Obama gave the Russians what they wanted regarding Eastern European missile defense.

-Shokin was corrupt? Really? Can you tell me what he did?

He did pretty much the same things that Bill Barr is doing here: he dragged his feet on clear cases and simply failed to prosecute Poroshenko's cronies.  There's more, but that should do.

JDG 66 Wrote:You're also claiming that Poroshenko was corrupt. Poroshenko, who quid prop quo Joe and drug addict Hunter were happy to deal with, and who broke Ukrainian law to the DNC against the Trump campaign 2016. I won't argue with you on that one. But you think it was somehow corrupt that Trump would want to look into this. Huh. Oh well. Good luck.

Here's another article that covers most of this.
Biden is being presented as having an insurmountable lead. Is it time for Bernie to save lives by allowing primaries to be canceled?

The problem with President-fo-Life Trump has been the ability to come up with an excuse to cancel the election. The virus provides that excuse. In Ohio, the governor ignored a court order that said you must hold the primary. If one can cancel a primary in spite of a court order, can one cancel a general election?

A couple of awkward questions...
President Trump Job Approval
Approve44.2
Disapprove52.6
Disapprove +8.4

Democratic Presidential Nomination
Biden55.7
Sanders34.8
Gabbard3.2
Biden +20.9

I don't know what Bernie will do. He kept going in the past to exercize influence with the nominee. I think if the current measures continue and stimulus is put into effect soon, these are probably effective and recovery will happen in a few months, so the election won't likely be cancelled by Drumpface. But I wouldn't put anything past him.
(03-17-2020, 03:57 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-16-2020, 03:10 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2020, 03:01 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Really?  The prosecutor that was pushed out was corrupt by everyone's standards (maybe not yours, though).  The President was also corrupt, which allowed Zelensky a shot at toppling him.  

Get your timeline and players straight, will you?  You did the same thing with the missile discussion.
Obama asks Putin (through his sock puppet Medvedev) to help him out so he could get reelected.

Nowhere has a credible argument been made that this is true.  If you have a citation, provide it.

JDG 66 Wrote:A little later, Obama even mocked Romney for describing Russia as a threat. Remember? The Russians did go easy on him, and Obama gave the Russians what they wanted regarding Eastern European missile defense.

-Shokin was corrupt? Really? Can you tell me what he did?

He did pretty much the same things that Bill Barr is doing here: he dragged his feet on clear cases and simply failed to prosecute Poroshenko's cronies.  There's more, but that should do.

JDG 66 Wrote:You're also claiming that Poroshenko was corrupt. Poroshenko, who quid prop quo Joe and drug addict Hunter were happy to deal with, and who broke Ukrainian law to the DNC against the Trump campaign 2016. I won't argue with you on that one. But you think it was somehow corrupt that Trump would want to look into this. Huh. Oh well. Good luck.

Here's another article that covers most of this.

1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?
(03-17-2020, 10:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]...The problem with President-fo-Life Trump has been the ability to come up with an excuse to cancel the election.  The virus provides that excuse.  In Ohio, the governor ignored a court order that said you must hold the primary.  If one can cancel a primary in spite of a court order, can one cancel a general election?

A couple of awkward questions...

You really believe this?
That the Republican governor of Ohio cancelled the prime day of the Ohio primary, yes. MSNBC and Rachel Maddow reported this a few days ago. The three primaries reported on recently were originally scheduled as four.

If the shelter in place order is still in place in November, would Trump do same thing to keep a hold on power? Possible. He has often said he can do anything. He has ignored the two term constitutional limit in various daydreams. As far as I could tell, no big ruckus occurred in Ohio. It would likely make absolutely sure he was gone when the order is eventually canceled, but I wouldn't put it past him.

One guy's opinion. We'll see if the shelter in place thing sticks, how serious the isolation becomes. November is very far away to do much more than wonder. It is enough to start a discussion.
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing. Just as I thought.
(03-18-2020, 12:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]That the Republican governor of Ohio cancelled the prime day of the Ohio primary, yes.  MSNBC and Rachel Maddow reported this a few days ago.  The three primaries reported on recently were originally scheduled as four.

If the shelter in place order is still in place in November, would Trump do same thing to keep a hold on power?  Possible.  He has often said he can do anything.  He has ignored the two term constitutional limit in various daydreams.  As far as I could tell, no big ruckus occurred in Ohio.  It would likely make absolutely sure he was gone when the order is eventually canceled, but I wouldn't put it past him.

One guy's opinion.  We'll see if the shelter in place thing sticks, how serious the isolation becomes.  November is very far away to do much more than wonder.  It is enough to start a discussion.

I suspect that Trump prefers the role of War Hero, but He'll take what he can get.
(03-18-2020, 12:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing.  Just as I thought.

-Obama's on tape, promising the Russians to chuck Eastern European defenses if they go easy on him in 2012. Quid pro quo. Sheesh. Meanwhile, the transcript between Trump and Zelensky shows no quid pro quo, but that's an impeachment. Whatever.
(03-18-2020, 01:13 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 12:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing.  Just as I thought.

-Obama's on tape, promising the Russians to chuck Eastern European defenses if they go easy on him in 2012. Quid pro quo. Sheesh. Meanwhile, the transcript between Trump and Zelensky shows no quid pro quo, but that's an impeachment. Whatever.

OK, then let's hear it.  The info I provided showed the conversation was about missile defense systems.  I provided a citation (you are free to disagree with the cite, but I provided one). Where's yours?
(03-18-2020, 01:13 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 12:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing.  Just as I thought.

-Obama's on tape, promising the Russians to chuck Eastern European defenses if they go easy on him in 2012. Quid pro quo. Sheesh. Meanwhile, the transcript between Trump and Zelensky shows no quid pro quo, but that's an impeachment. Whatever.
Obama did tell Medvedev in 2012 that after Obama's re-election he could be more flexible in his negotiations. I don't remember any specifics being given (I see David says he showed you some). Meanwhile, the quid pro quo given by Trump to Zelensky could not be more clear, along with what was told by a number of witnesses. But that's an acquittal, Sheesh. Whatever.
(03-18-2020, 05:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 01:13 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 12:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing.  Just as I thought.

-Obama's on tape, promising the Russians to chuck Eastern European defenses if they go easy on him in 2012. Quid pro quo. Sheesh. Meanwhile, the transcript between Trump and Zelensky shows no quid pro quo, but that's an impeachment. Whatever.
Obama did tell Medvedev in 2012 that after Obama's re-election he could be more flexible in his negotiations. I don't remember any specifics being given (I see David says he showed you some). Meanwhile, the quid pro quo given by Trump to Zelensky could not be more clear, along with what was told by a number of witnesses. But that's an acquittal, Sheesh. Whatever.

It may be ironic, but Russia could get better deals that stuck with Obama than Russia could get with Trump. The difference isn't that Obama is more pliable; it is instead that deals that Trump and Putin make can omplode because of weak connection to national interests. 

Dirty dealings may look more attractive at the outset, but honest dealings -- good for good -- can readily have more lasting value.
(03-18-2020, 05:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It may be ironic, but Russia could get better deals that stuck with Obama than Russia could get with Trump. The difference isn't that Obama is more pliable; it is instead that deals that Trump and Putin make can omplode because of weak connection to national interests. 

Dirty dealings may look more attractive at the outset, but honest dealings -- good for good -- can readily have more lasting value.

Putin and Erdogan got Syria to split between them. That was a gift from DJT that wasn't even hidden.
(03-18-2020, 03:55 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 01:13 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 12:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing.  Just as I thought.

-Obama's on tape, promising the Russians to chuck Eastern European defenses if they go easy on him in 2012. Quid pro quo. Sheesh. Meanwhile, the transcript between Trump and Zelensky shows no quid pro quo, but that's an impeachment. Whatever.

OK, then let's hear it.  The info I provided showed the conversation was about missile defense systems.  I provided a citation (you are free to disagree with the cite, but I provided one). Where's yours?

Obama: "On all these issues, but particularly missile defence, this, this can be solved – but it's important for him to give me space."
Medvedev: "Yeah, I understand. I understand your message about space. Space for you."
Obama: "This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."
Medvedev responded: "I understand. I will transmit this information to Vladimir."


...so, Obama is asking for Putin to help him out with the election. In return, Obama will give Putin what he wanted (i.e., abandonment of East Euro missile defense). Both came to pass. Otherwise, why is that Obama could only give Putin what he wanted (a sell-out on Eastern European missile defense) when he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people?
(03-18-2020, 05:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 01:13 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 12:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing.  Just as I thought.

-Obama's on tape, promising the Russians to chuck Eastern European defenses if they go easy on him in 2012. Quid pro quo. Sheesh. Meanwhile, the transcript between Trump and Zelensky shows no quid pro quo, but that's an impeachment. Whatever.
Obama did tell Medvedev in 2012 that after Obama's re-election he could be more flexible in his negotiations. I don't remember any specifics being given (I see David says he showed you some). Meanwhile, the quid pro quo given by Trump to Zelensky could not be more clear, along with what was told by a number of witnesses. But that's an acquittal, Sheesh. Whatever.

...so, tell me, why is that Obama could only give Putin what he wanted (a sell-out on Eastern European missile defense) when he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people?

In return for selling out the Poles, and being Putin's buddy, Putin was (temporarily) nice to Obama for the duration of the 2012 election.

Uh, what Trump-Zelensky quid pro quo? The transcript (  https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/politics/...index.html  )shows no quid pro quo. Every witness Schiff called,  from Fiona What's Her Name to Puffy Colonel, when cross-examined, ended up blathering about how they'd heard it from a friend, who, heard it from a friend, who heard it from another...

...and the Ukrainians continued to get their Javelins, a sale Obama disallowed because he was afraid of upsetting Putin. But whatever.
(03-18-2020, 05:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 05:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 01:13 PM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 12:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 11:32 AM)JDG 66 Wrote: [ -> ]1) Explain why Obama gave the Russians exactly what they wanted, after they "gave him space" so he could get reelected, and after he was no longer electorally responsible to the American people. It's in every video of the hot mic incident. Sheesh.

2) Evidence for Shokin dragging his feet? When was he charged?

BTW, the only Barr seems to be dragging his feet on is bringing the FISA conspirators to justice.

3) USA Today glorified opinion piece fails to explain anything. Why do you think it was wrong for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate the DNC's election violations of their own laws, or the Biden crime family?

So, you 've got nothing.  Just as I thought.

-Obama's on tape, promising the Russians to chuck Eastern European defenses if they go easy on him in 2012. Quid pro quo. Sheesh. Meanwhile, the transcript between Trump and Zelensky shows no quid pro quo, but that's an impeachment. Whatever.
Obama did tell Medvedev in 2012 that after Obama's re-election he could be more flexible in his negotiations. I don't remember any specifics being given (I see David says he showed you some). Meanwhile, the quid pro quo given by Trump to Zelensky could not be more clear, along with what was told by a number of witnesses. But that's an acquittal, Sheesh. Whatever.

It may be ironic, but Russia could get better deals that stuck with Obama than Russia could get with Trump. The difference isn't that Obama is more pliable; it is instead that deals that Trump and Putin make can omplode because of weak connection to national interests. 

Dirty dealings may look more attractive at the outset, but honest dealings -- good for good -- can readily have more lasting value.

Let's see, what did Obama give Putin?

1) Got rid of Eastern European missile defense in return for nothing;

2) Drew a so-called red line in the sand over Syria, and then did nothing when Vlad ignored him, partly because he was sucking up to the Russians, in part because he was sucking up to the Iranians;

3) Refused to allow US companies to sell weapons to the Ukrainians because he didn't want to poke the Bear;

4) Made a deal with Putin's debtor, Iran, making sure that they'd have the money to pay off their debts, thus giving Putin more money, not to mention helping to finance the Qods Force, Iranian missile developement, Hezb Allah, the Badr Corps, the Huthis, etc., etc, but that another story;

5) Recognized Putin's buddies in Cuba in return for, uh, what?

6)  Fought drilling and fracking in the USA all he could, thus helping keep Russia (and Iran, and Venezuela, and...) rich;

7) Signed off on a bogus investigation of the Trump campaign based on a Putin disinformation campaign.
(03-19-2020, 10:33 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-18-2020, 05:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]It may be ironic, but Russia could get better deals that stuck with Obama than Russia could get with Trump. The difference isn't that Obama is more pliable; it is instead that deals that Trump and Putin make can omplode because of weak connection to national interests. 

Dirty dealings may look more attractive at the outset, but honest dealings -- good for good -- can readily have more lasting value.

Putin and Erdogan got Syria to split between them.  That was a gift from DJT that wasn't even hidden.

Ha ha ha.

DJT made sure the Kurds kept the Deyir Al-Zoor oilfields, meaning that Assad, and thereby, the Russians, missed out on the only worthwhile thing in Syria. Some gift. But, Russian servicemen still have a place to practice their combat skills. I suppose that's something.

And since when did you start worrying about the Russians? From what I can tell, you spent several decades willing to give the Rooskies anything they wanted. Golly, all of a sudden your acting like some kinda rightwing sabre rattler when it comes to the Russians. What changed, man? Tongue