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(09-03-2020, 06:11 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]MSNBC had a whole bunch of polls come in.  They have no significant change in the race shown, with Biden's lead at current 7.2% while a month ago it was 7.4%.  I'm pretty sure these polls were to get a feel for the two convention bounces, and they pretty much cancelled out.

It seems there is a new anti Trump book coming out every few days.  Trump is looking for a vaccine October surprise. There are still the debates coming.  Many who are not as much into politics as we generally are here start to become invested into the race after the conventions.

We'll see how it goes.


Ruling out hack polls such as those of Harper and Rasmussen that seem to have an objective (Get Trump Re-Elected!) all that has really changed in the last month in the 2020 Presidential election is that one month of the calendar has vanished for the Trump campaign. At this point, time is running out, and the clock (really the calendar) is doing more to define the race than anything else.
To be honest, aside from the flurry of left wing hate posts on Trump's Twitter feed, the average Joe comments I'm hearing and seeing seem to be more.in favour of Trump then Biden.

The responses are quite simply, "we are fed up with the looting and rioting in Democrat cities. Trump did well with the economy. We are fed up with political correctness. Biden is senile and it's not right." Now that is the average Joe comments.

I think the MSM polls have hyper inflated Bidens support without taking in the 'shy' Trump voters along with average people who have not been polled. 

Plus aside from the MSM factor, the more honest poll taking is actually showing that the race is indeed narrowing with Trump one point shy from Biden. 

Honestly, like I said once again, it's the debates that will cement the result. If Joe doesn't show or flubs it's greatly, you can kiss goodbye to a Democrat victory.
(09-03-2020, 12:17 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, aside from the flurry of left wing hate posts on Trump's Twitter feed, the average Joe comments I'm hearing and seeing seem to be more.in favour of Trump then Biden...

That could well be what is presented by those in the Fox bubble. If you watch the coastal media you get swamped by the opposite side. I suspect Pbower has the right of it.
(09-03-2020, 12:17 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, aside from the flurry of left wing hate posts on Trump's Twitter feed, the average Joe comments I'm hearing and seeing seem to be more.in favour of Trump then Biden.

The responses are quite simply, "we are fed up with the looting and rioting in Democrat cities. Trump did well with the economy. We are fed up with political correctness. Biden is senile and it's not right." Now that is the average Joe comments.

I think the MSM polls have hyper inflated Bidens support without taking in the 'shy' Trump voters along with average people who have not been polled. 

Plus aside from the MSM factor, the more honest poll taking is actually showing that the race is indeed narrowing with Trump one point shy from Biden. 

Honestly, like I said once again, it's the debates that will cement the result. If Joe doesn't show or flubs it's greatly, you can kiss goodbye to a Democrat victory.

You have to go by poll averages, not one poll that says Biden is 1 point ahead. There are a lot of polls. fivethirtyeight and realclearpolitics still show Biden leading by over 7 points. But that is down from 9.

It is amazing that people fall for these slogans. Trump ruined the economy by allowing the coronavirus to eat it up for half a year now. Why would anyone vote to keep us all locked in this prison, when real government action would open things up sooner?

And why are they not fed up with what causes rioting, which is not only police brutality, but provocateurs? And why do they buy the slogan about "Democrat cities" when almost all cities are majority Democratic, and Biden doesn't run any of them and never has? And if they are fed up, why not blame the man in charge of the country?

And what does it matter if some people correct your language? That may be irritating, but it doesn't affect the GDP or the national debt, not to mention growing poverty and environmental destruction and threats to democracy by the conspiracy-theorist-in-chief.

And why do they call Biden senile when he gave the best speech of his life at the DNC and Trump gave his worst at the RNC?

And I don't know about debates making the difference. Hillary won three debates and still lost the electoral college.

A mixed-up people, for sure.
It seems a lot of people have been waiting for the conventions to end and the campaign to get serious.  All of a sudden a lot of books targeting Trump are coming out.  Tonight, it was an aspect of Trump's personality.  It seems that those who join the military, those who sacrifice for the country, are suckers and losers. If you sacrifice for others this is such a bad decision that he was ready to disown his son over it.  His recent refusal to stand up for the troops may come from his contempt for their loyalty to the country.  Apparently, two reporters each with multiple sources are pressing it.  It surfaces slightly in Mary Trump's book that came out last week, but is turning into more of an issue now.  Apparently, he is not considered honorable enough to be commander in chief.

Just today's reason to be against Trump.
(09-03-2020, 03:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-03-2020, 12:17 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, aside from the flurry of left wing hate posts on Trump's Twitter feed, the average Joe comments I'm hearing and seeing seem to be more.in favour of Trump then Biden.

The responses are quite simply, "we are fed up with the looting and rioting in Democrat cities. Trump did well with the economy. We are fed up with political correctness. Biden is senile and it's not right." Now that is the average Joe comments.

I think the MSM polls have hyper inflated Bidens support without taking in the 'shy' Trump voters along with average people who have not been polled. 

Plus aside from the MSM factor, the more honest poll taking is actually showing that the race is indeed narrowing with Trump one point shy from Biden. 

Honestly, like I said once again, it's the debates that will cement the result. If Joe doesn't show or flubs it's greatly, you can kiss goodbye to a Democrat victory.

You have to go by poll averages, not one poll that says Biden is 1 point ahead. There are a lot of polls. fivethirtyeight and realclearpolitics still show Biden leading by over 7 points. But that is down from 9.

It is amazing that people fall for these slogans. Trump ruined the economy by allowing the coronavirus to eat it up for half a year now. Why would anyone vote to keep us all locked in this prison, when real government action would open things up sooner?

And why are they not fed up with what causes rioting, which is not only police brutality, but provocateurs? And why do they buy the slogan about "Democrat cities" when almost all cities are majority Democratic, and Biden doesn't run any of them and never has? And if they are fed up, why not blame the man in charge of the country?

And what does it matter if some people correct your language? That may be irritating, but it doesn't affect the GDP or the national debt, not to mention growing poverty and environmental destruction and threats to democracy by the conspiracy-theorist-in-chief.

And why do they call Biden senile when he gave the best speech of his life at the DNC and Trump gave his worst at the RNC?

And I don't know about debates making the difference. Hillary won three debates and still lost the electoral college.

A mixed-up people, for sure.

What do you all think could have been done differently regarding this pandemic? Do you believe that Biden will reverse course on this if elected?
Eric,

Trump didn't screw up with the Corona virus. All countries in the world screwed up with the virus. America followed the same path as Britain and other European countries. They locked down and had no idea where all of this was going to lead. To blame it all solely on Trump is unfair as if there had been a Democrat in the white house, I am absolutely sure that the same measures and problems would have occurred on their watch as much as Trump's.

As for the polls, Biden support dropped recently on five thirty-eight to about 4 points ahead. I'm seeing it in some other polls too. Biden is starting to trend into Hilary waters.

As for the DNC speech, I watched it. I watched Trump's as well. I found Bidens to be boring, lacking in substance and typical teleprompter stuff. Trump on the other hand gave his usual MAGA type of speech which I thought was better received.

If I'm honest, if the Dems had a better candidate, they would win outright and there would be no talk of a surprise Trump victory. However since you have Biden, those polls are going to keep narrowing. Plus BLM is acting as a strong rallying call for Trump.
(09-04-2020, 01:17 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]Eric,

Trump didn't screw up with the Corona virus. All countries in the world screwed up with the virus. America followed the same path as Britain and other European countries. They locked down and had no idea where all of this was going to lead. To blame it all solely on Trump is unfair as if there had been a Democrat in the white house, I am absolutely sure that the same measures and problems would have occurred on their watch as much as Trump's.

As for the polls, Biden support dropped recently on five thirty-eight to about 4 points ahead. I'm seeing it in some other polls too. Biden is starting to trend into Hilary waters.

As for the DNC speech, I watched it. I watched Trump's as well. I found Bidens to be boring, lacking in substance and typical teleprompter stuff. Trump on the other hand gave his usual MAGA type of speech which I thought was better received.

If I'm honest, if the Dems had a better candidate, they would win outright and there would be no talk of a surprise Trump victory. However since you have Biden, those polls are going to keep narrowing. Plus BLM is acting as a strong rallying call for Trump.

A lot of folks made mistakes, but only one leader took his nation to number one on the cases and death parade. How do you talk the Democrats being no substance when the Republicans went without a platform? People get into their ideology and perceive what they want to perceive. You get some weird beliefs if you don't check with reality. We'll see.
Bob,

Perhaps America has more people then an average European country hence the higher number of cases? Honestly, I just cannot see how you can blame Trump for the virus when the Democrats would have made the same mistakes. My own perception on this is that liberals hate Trump and what he stands for and they are willing to blame him for something that was out of his control.
(09-04-2020, 06:37 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]Bob,

Perhaps America has more people then an average European country hence the higher number of cases? Honestly, I just cannot see how you can blame Trump for the virus when the Democrats would have made the same mistakes. My own perception on this is that liberals hate Trump and what he stands for and they are willing to blame him for something that was out of his control.

Donald Trump is a vile man, and his methods of governing (divide et impera) are novel to America. He is a racist and a religious bigot. He has inflamed ethnic discord as none have done in American public life since the failed efforts to thwart the Civil Rights movement.

Democrats took quick measures (as did Republican governors of Indiana and Ohio) to stop the spread of COVID-19. The amazing thing is that governors of Indiana and Ohio did much the same things that Democratic  Governors of Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky did. To be sure, Big Business did its part in putting sporting events and movie showings on hiatus, closing gyms, and mandating masks in stores.  Democrats did back down when they found that they could allow golf and tennis.

Liberals despise Trump for other things, but nothing that Trump did killed people as COVID-19 did. Trump put the consumer economy over life... Trump's sole strong appeal was on stock market valuations as evidence of his economic stewardship.
Pbrower,

Trump? A racist? Are you serious? I've met racist people in my life time (try going to South Africa) and I can assure you, Trump is no racist. A right wing populist who has issues with mass illegal immigration? Sure. But an actual racist? Considering the amount of non white friends he has, I strongly doubt he is one.

A religious bigot? Please. I doubt even Trump knows one Bible passage, despite the evangelicals supporting him (which they always do with Republican Presidents because of the pro-life thing). 

Inflaming racial tensions? They already existed and started to grow quite heavily under Obama. I knew plenty of white people in America at the time who were fed up of what I would describe as blaming the white people for everything slogans of today's establishment. It was already there long before Trump and I'd Biden gets in, will continue long after Trump.

You go crazy as a society, blaming one group after another over time and eventually you are going to reach a boiling point.

Trump failed to shut down the consumer economy? Newsflash - extremely liberal Sweden never even had a lock down. Everything stayed open. As liberal as you can get. At least Trump had a lock down, on par pretty much with the British government.

I'm sorry but the criticisms I am seeing of Trump is nothing but pure hatred from the left because he dared to do something about immigration and political correctness which they cannot tolerate. 

However I will give credit where credit is due and admit he did screw up recently with the postal ballot thing. So yeah that he did.

But overall Trump has actually been a pretty decent president. He has tried to talk to more world leaders to solve issues (like with North Korea), surprisingly has not been involved in any major wars (compared to Obama), helped shape a peace deal with Israel and the UAE, actually tackled immigration and even got the economy going again.

Overall he has been pretty damn successful. When he goes, it'll just be business as usual, more wars, more debt, the usual. At least Trump tried.
(09-04-2020, 11:24 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]Pbrower,

Trump? A racist? Are you serious? I've met racist people in my life time (try going to South Africa) and I can assure you, Trump is no racist. A right wing populist who has issues with mass illegal immigration? Sure. But an actual racist? Considering the amount of non white friends he has, I strongly doubt he is one.

A religious bigot? Please. I doubt even Trump knows one Bible passage, despite the evangelicals supporting him (which they always do with Republican Presidents because of the pro-life thing). 

Inflaming racial tensions? They already existed and started to grow quite heavily under Obama. I knew plenty of white people in America at the time who were fed up of what I would describe as blaming the white people for everything slogans of today's establishment. It was already there long before Trump and I'd Biden gets in, will continue long after Trump.

You go crazy as a society, blaming one group after another over time and eventually you are going to reach a boiling point.

Trump failed to shut down the consumer economy? Newsflash - extremely liberal Sweden never even had a lock down. Everything stayed open. As liberal as you can get. At least Trump had a lock down, on par pretty much with the British government.

I'm sorry but the criticisms I am seeing of Trump is nothing but pure hatred from the left because he dared to do something about immigration and political correctness which they cannot tolerate. 

However I will give credit where credit is due and admit he did screw up recently with the postal ballot thing. So yeah that he did.

But overall Trump has actually been a pretty decent president. He has tried to talk to more world leaders to solve issues (like with North Korea), surprisingly has not been involved in any major wars (compared to Obama), helped shape a peace deal with Israel and the UAE, actually tackled immigration and even got the economy going again.

Overall he has been pretty damn successful. When he goes, it'll just be business as usual, more wars, more debt, the usual. At least Trump tried.

It is not Trump we hate, it is his policies.

His immigration policy is illegal. He shut down the amnesty process, going against our statue of liberty. His policy has caused needless deaths. It was not necessary anyway because immigration was already down when he announced his candidacy, and Obama had already done a lot of deportations. The Senate passed a good bipartisan immigration bill during Obama's term, but House Republican fanatics killed it. They are responsible for the mess.

Obama has not started any major wars. He carried on with what was already started, and reduced it. Trump didn't change that policy much. What he has done though, is withdraw from several important treaties, breaking the word of the USA. No president has done that before, and it is very dangerous. His policies are especially dangerous to our environment, upon which we depend, and which is under catastrophic threat.

Biden has been cautious in his career about war. He will carry on the caution that Obama started and Trump continued.

Of course Trump failed to shutdown the economy on a national basis. His henchmen governors opened it up too soon, creating a huge surge that continues. He initially called covid a hoax that would just go away. He took no national action until it was too late. Protective equipment was lacking, tests were not available, quarantines did not occur, and relief was poorly distributed. Trump is to blame for covid in the USA and he needs to lose his job over it. People are crazy to vote to keep themselves in this covid prison by re-electing Trump. People in Florida may indeed be that crazy.

Racism was there in the USA forever, but what Trump did was to stoke it for political gain. It worked for him to eek out a narrow victory in 3 states. Wherever he speaks, hate crimes and murders increase. That is a fact. Trump has proven himself to be a racist with his campaign years ago to put innocent black people in jail, by housing discrimination he has carried out, and by his support for eugenics. He comes from a racist background. If he can get along with some black people, that's fine, but his policies and campaigns are racist driven and based on religious bigotry. His anti-Muslim travel bans are unjust. He likes the support he gets from QAnon and the KKK and other racists groups, and he thinks Nazis are fine people. He said so. He does not care about black people being shot by police, but only whether they act out in frustration, or if he can use riots started by provocateurs as fuel for his campaign.

Trump is corrupt. He tells people to vote twice. He violates the law to hold his conventions at the White House. He violates the emoluments clause. He meets with Russian agents to get help for his campaigns. He depends on Russian financiers, opening himself up to blackmail. He pays off prostitutes to keep them quiet. He uses donations to his fake charity and to his campaign for his personal purposes. He asks foreign leaders to cook up stories of wrongdoing by his political opponent. He violates subpoenas. He asks his AG to put himself above the law. He illegally tampers with the mail, the census, and legally-approved federal funding. If a Democratic president did even one of these things, or even less, the fanatical Republicans would impeach him and rake him over the coals. Trump gets away with murder time after time. The law and order president doesn't give a damn about the law. If he is re-elected, our country will become like yours.

More debt after Trump? That would be a mean feat of accounting! Surely you jest.

Trump is the worst president in USA history. Historians already agree. Even a broken clock is right twice a day though.
(09-04-2020, 01:17 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]Eric,

Trump didn't screw up with the Corona virus. All countries in the world screwed up with the virus. America followed the same path as Britain and other European countries. They locked down and had no idea where all of this was going to lead. To blame it all solely on Trump is unfair as if there had been a Democrat in the white house, I am absolutely sure that the same measures and problems would have occurred on their watch as much as Trump's.

As for the polls, Biden support dropped recently on five thirty-eight to about 4 points ahead. I'm seeing it in some other polls too. Biden is starting to trend into Hilary waters.

As for the DNC speech, I watched it. I watched Trump's as well. I found Bidens to be boring, lacking in substance and typical teleprompter stuff. Trump on the other hand gave his usual MAGA type of speech which I thought was better received.

If I'm honest, if the Dems had a better candidate, they would win outright and there would be no talk of a surprise Trump victory. However since you have Biden, those polls are going to keep narrowing. Plus BLM is acting as a strong rallying call for Trump.

It's too bad how Trump has weaponized BLM and Antifa. BLM is a great movement, its demonstrations were peaceful, and it got a lot of white support. Now, because another cop paralyzes an innocent black man by shooting him 7 times in the back, more riots erupt for a day or two. Completely understandable, even if wrong. White people are easily bamboozled by this and easily fooled by fear. Trump is the best at exploiting it. Biden's numbers are indeed going down, and may narrow more. He is not a great candidate, but he is all we had-- except one further left that too many Democrats thought was also unlikely to win. Whether Democrats have a great candidate or not depends on who steps up. The best possibilities did not step up. Too bad. But Biden has at least an even shot to win. He will not have the liabilities that Hillary had.

What you found in those speeches is not what all the pundits said. I think the pundits' opinion carries more weight than your opinion. I watched both speeches too. Biden was impassioned and substantive, Trump was boring, dishonest and unfocused. But how the people react is another thing. Hillary won 3 debates and still lost.

Britain also handled the virus worse than other countries, like the USA did. That's because the UK has a Trump clone as a leader. Bolsonaro of Brazil is also a Trump clone. Results have been the same. Some countries with strong and smart leadership have controlled the virus. The USA has by far the most cases and deaths because we have no national leadership.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol...l/national
Sept.4, 1:22 PM EDT

National Biden +7.5
Arizona Biden +4.7
Colorado Biden +12.3
Florida Biden +2.8
Georgia Trump +1.4
Iowa Trump +1.6
Kansas Trump +9.2
Michigan Biden +6.7
Minnesota Biden +6.3
Missouri Trump +6.4
Montana Trump +8.5
Nevada Biden +6.5
New Hampshire Biden +8.2
North Carolina Biden +1.8
Ohio Trump +1.9
Pennsylvania Biden +4.5
South Carolina Trump +6.6
Texas Trump +0.5
Utah Trump +11.5
Virginia Biden +10.8
Wisconsin Biden +7.4

[Image: El7Be]
(09-03-2020, 09:45 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-03-2020, 03:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-03-2020, 12:17 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, aside from the flurry of left wing hate posts on Trump's Twitter feed, the average Joe comments I'm hearing and seeing seem to be more.in favour of Trump then Biden.

The responses are quite simply, "we are fed up with the looting and rioting in Democrat cities. Trump did well with the economy. We are fed up with political correctness. Biden is senile and it's not right." Now that is the average Joe comments.

I think the MSM polls have hyper inflated Bidens support without taking in the 'shy' Trump voters along with average people who have not been polled. 

Plus aside from the MSM factor, the more honest poll taking is actually showing that the race is indeed narrowing with Trump one point shy from Biden. 

Honestly, like I said once again, it's the debates that will cement the result. If Joe doesn't show or flubs it's greatly, you can kiss goodbye to a Democrat victory.

You have to go by poll averages, not one poll that says Biden is 1 point ahead. There are a lot of polls. fivethirtyeight and realclearpolitics still show Biden leading by over 7 points. But that is down from 9.

It is amazing that people fall for these slogans. Trump ruined the economy by allowing the coronavirus to eat it up for half a year now. Why would anyone vote to keep us all locked in this prison, when real government action would open things up sooner?

And why are they not fed up with what causes rioting, which is not only police brutality, but provocateurs? And why do they buy the slogan about "Democrat cities" when almost all cities are majority Democratic, and Biden doesn't run any of them and never has? And if they are fed up, why not blame the man in charge of the country?

And what does it matter if some people correct your language? That may be irritating, but it doesn't affect the GDP or the national debt, not to mention growing poverty and environmental destruction and threats to democracy by the conspiracy-theorist-in-chief.

And why do they call Biden senile when he gave the best speech of his life at the DNC and Trump gave his worst at the RNC?

And I don't know about debates making the difference. Hillary won three debates and still lost the electoral college.

A mixed-up people, for sure.

What do you all think could have been done differently regarding this pandemic? Do you believe that Biden will reverse course on this if elected?

Certainly, he will. Coronavirus-19 is difficult to control. But Biden will do what Trump did not do. He will shut down the economy nationally if necessary-- not allowing the Republican governors of Florida, Texas, Georgia, Arizona etc to open it too soon. This may not be necessary if we can get a vaccine by the time Biden is inaugurated, or soon afterward. Then at least the economy could be carefully reopened, and the masks and social distancing rules relaxed. This also depends on the anti-vaxxers being left to their own devices. They should be allowed to get sick and not keep the rest of us in prison to coddle their delusions. But this depends also on the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine. If Trump is re-elected, the vaccine will be poorly distributed and not available to the poor, who are most-affected, and thus the pandemic will continue. The pandemic is on the ballot.
(09-03-2020, 12:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-03-2020, 12:17 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, aside from the flurry of left wing hate posts on Trump's Twitter feed, the average Joe comments I'm hearing and seeing seem to be more.in favour of Trump then Biden...

That could well be what is presented by those in the Fox bubble.  If you watch the coastal media you get swamped by the opposite side.  I suspect Pbower has the right of it.

People on the east and west coasts can see beyond America. Those close to the border can see beyond it somewhat, at least into Canada and Mexico. People in Colorado can see beyond America because they are high atop the mountains.

People down in the heartland can't see beyond America. The further inland they are, the more narrow their vision.

The north, generally-speaking, is more congenial to progress than the south, corrupted as the south is by outdated, oppressive ancient traditions.

Just one curious way of looking at the electoral map of our country; not an absolute judgement on everybody. I think a convincing Biden victory will need all 4 corners. From the north of Maine down to the Florida Keys, from Puget Sound to the San Diego harbor and out to Hawaii. It would be nice to have the Gulf Coast of Texas and Lake o' the Woods too. Blue America should be like the four stars that make the big square of Orion. Some brighter than others, some older than others. With part of the Rocky Mountains as a shiny belt buckle, or maybe those 3 states of MN, WI and MI, if they hold up.

May the watery blue tide rise.
(09-04-2020, 01:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]People on the east and west coasts can see beyond America. Those close to the border can see beyond it somewhat, at least into Canada and Mexico. People in Colorado can see beyond America because they are high atop the mountains.

Don't forget.  If you are in Alaska, and are Sarah Palin, you can see Russia.   Wink
(09-04-2020, 08:23 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-04-2020, 06:37 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]Bob,

Perhaps America has more people then an average European country hence the higher number of cases? Honestly, I just cannot see how you can blame Trump for the virus when the Democrats would have made the same mistakes. My own perception on this is that liberals hate Trump and what he stands for and they are willing to blame him for something that was out of his control.

Donald Trump is a vile man, and his methods of governing (divide et impera) are novel to America. He is a racist and a religious bigot. He has inflamed ethnic discord as none have done in American public life since the failed efforts to thwart the Civil Rights movement.

Democrats took quick measures (as did Republican governors of Indiana and Ohio) to stop the spread of COVID-19. The amazing thing is that governors of Indiana and Ohio did much the same things that Democratic  Governors of Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky did. To be sure, Big Business did its part in putting sporting events and movie showings on hiatus, closing gyms, and mandating masks in stores.  Democrats did back down when they found that they could allow golf and tennis.

Liberals despise Trump for other things, but nothing that Trump did killed people as COVID-19 did. Trump put the consumer economy over life... Trump's sole strong appeal was on stock market valuations as evidence of his economic stewardship.

For the most part, what Pbower said. He was a little more emphatic, perhaps, than I would be, but you have to be if you are going to get through the bubble. Democrats missed the shutdown with Europe early, but have otherwise done decently. You can find a few countries that did worse if you look at the cases or deaths per unit of population, but all that does is identify other nations that value money over lives. That is not us, mostly, except the Republican elite.
(09-04-2020, 02:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-04-2020, 01:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]People on the east and west coasts can see beyond America. Those close to the border can see beyond it somewhat, at least into Canada and Mexico. People in Colorado can see beyond America because they are high atop the mountains.

Don't forget.  If you are in Alaska, and are Sarah Palin, you can see Russia.   Wink

Yes indeed, and she has a bridge to Kamchatka to sell us too Smile

Alaska is different, not being part of the heartland, but it is so huge and rural that it fits the red profile. And yet, it is becoming more and more of a swing state now, so far only leaning Trump. Originally, their first vote was very close between Kennedy and Nixon. Only LBJ has ever carried it for the Democrats, although handsomely. But JFK and HHH both came close against Nixon, who carried it barely.

(09-04-2020, 11:24 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]Pbrower,

Trump? A racist? Are you serious? I've met racist people in my life time (try going to South Africa) and I can assure you, Trump is no racist. A right wing populist who has issues with mass illegal immigration? Sure. But an actual racist? Considering the amount of non white friends he has, I strongly doubt he is one.

Trump doesn't burn crosses or shout Sieg Heil! -- but that does not keep him from being a racist. There are racists and there are racists. There are people who rely upon gut feelings and stale superstitions for their beliefs, and there are those who offer elaborate theories on the inequality of large groups of people. Trump lacks the limited (and flawed) learning necessary for establishing the administrative apparatus for Apartheid or for writing such a tome as Lothrop Stoddard's The Passing of the Great Race.


Quote:A religious bigot? Please. I doubt even Trump knows one Bible passage, despite the evangelicals supporting him (which they always do with Republican Presidents because of the pro-life thing). 

One can be an atheist and still be a bigot. Atheists can rarely undo the reality of their heritage, and they can favor one religious tradition over another. Liberals can be at fault for calling fundamentalists "holy rollers" and "snake handlers" It isn't that simple. What Trump has said about Islam is a disgrace.  


Quote:Inflaming racial tensions? They already existed and started to grow quite heavily under Obama. I knew plenty of white people in America at the time who were fed up of what I would describe as blaming the white people for everything slogans of today's establishment. It was already there long before Trump and I'd Biden gets in, will continue long after Trump.

Things seemed rather placid under Obama, didn't they? Obama may have prevented many problems by advocating that people defer to the legal process without passing judgment. Someone else will. Trump passes judgment before letting the legal process do its work. Such makes much of the difference. The latter is nothing new: long ago Donald Trump deemed the original suspects in the Central Park jogger case, who would later be cleared, as obviously guilty and deserving of the worst punishment available.    


Quote:You go crazy as a society, blaming one group after another over time and eventually you are going to reach a boiling point.

Which is exactly what Trump did, and with the consequences that you suggest!


Quote:Trump failed to shut down the consumer economy? Newsflash - extremely liberal Sweden never even had a lock down. Everything stayed open. As liberal as you can get. At least Trump had a lock down, on par pretty much with the British government.

Liberal or conservative did not matter. Locking down the economy was essential to stopping COVID-19. The Swedes got it wrong. 


Quote:I'm sorry but the criticisms I am seeing of Trump is nothing but pure hatred from the left because he dared to do something about immigration and political correctness which they cannot tolerate. 

That has all gone to the back burner. COVID-19 can make issues of immigration and political correctness fade at least temporarily into the political and cultural background. If all that is between you and four angry Rottweilers is a screen door  that does not yet open but seems to have a flimsy latch that can break with a little more pressure on the door, you obviously don't have your dinner plans at the top of your list of activities at the moment. You are more concerned about being dinner!  


Quote:However I will give credit where credit is due and admit he did screw up recently with the postal ballot thing. So yeah that he did.

Fair concession. Donald Trump is ruthless and soulless enough to cheat to win. 


Quote:But overall Trump has actually been a pretty decent president. He has tried to talk to more world leaders to solve issues (like with North Korea), surprisingly has not been involved in any major wars (compared to Obama), helped shape a peace deal with Israel and the UAE, actually tackled immigration and even got the economy going again.

Pretty decent? At what? Filling open slots in the US Supreme Court with ideologues? Pushing tax cuts? Other than that he has an incredibly-weak slate of legislative achievements. I concede that a peace deal between Israel and the United Emirates is a good thing. They may disagree on Palestine, but neither seems to have done anything to each other. It may have been a matter of time.   

Quote:Overall he has been pretty damn successful. When he goes, it'll just be business as usual, more wars, more debt, the usual. At least Trump tried.

Successful? He could do things that I dislike, but success at such is the measure of effectiveness as a President. Contrast him to Ronald Reagan or Dwight Eisenhower, and he looks awful by contrast. 

OK, I have a map. An overlay of Eisenhower and Obama elections says much. Yeah, sure, Obama wasn't going to win many states that FDR didn't win in 1936  (Maine and Vermont), Nixon in 1972 (Massachusetts), or Reagan in 1984 (Minnesota) lost... 

   [Image: genusmap.php?year=2008&ev_c=1&pv_p=1&ev_...&NE3=2;1;7]
 
gray -- did not vote in 1952 or 1956
white -- Eisenhower twice, Obama twice
deep blue -- Republican all four elections
light blue -- Republican all but 2012 (I assume that greater Omaha went for Ike twice)
light green -- Eisenhower once, Stevenson once, Obama never
dark green -- Stevenson twice, Obama never
pink -- Stevenson twice, Obama once 

Obama is obviously unique, but he has to be more like one prior President than like any other. Some constituencies crossed over Party lines between the 1950's and the first couple decades of the 21st century. It is telling that in 2012 that Obama won only one state that did not vote for Eisenhower twice -- and that state, Hawaii, wasn't voting for President in the 1950's. What strikes me most is that 

(1) Eisenhower was the first Republican to win Virginia since 1928 (24 years) and he did it twice -- and Obama was the first Democrat to win Virginia in 44 years -- and he did it twice. 
(2) Ike won three states that no Republican had won together since 1924 (Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Rhode Island) that no Republican has won together at any time since Ike did it -- twice. 

Eisenhower and Obama strike me as chilly rationalists with similar temperaments and attitudes toward law. Both faced decisions on big issues of civil rights. Eisenhower did not tip his hand on Supreme Court rulings and accepted those as definitive. Obama was sympathetic to same-sex rights, but he let the Supreme Court make its decision without any lobbying. Once settled, the President made clear what his position was with a rainbow-colored light display upon the White House. 

It is also possible that Eisenhower and Obama had many of the same constituencies for or against them in the election. States once known for "Rockefeller Republicans" liked Ike in the 1950's and Obama in 2008 and 2012. These people may be incompatible with the often-racist agrarian interests of the Mountain and Deep South. Both Eisenhower and Obama did quite well with highly-educated people by the standard of the time. Neither Ike nor Obama strikes me as a populist.