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From the New Yorker,

".... some Republican state legislatures, relying on some obscure language in Article II of the Constitution, could even try to nullify the actual votes entirely and appoint slates of Party loyalists as electors to the Electoral College. If you think this sounds too outlandish even for Trump and today’s G.O.P. to consider, think again. Citing Republican sources at the local and national levels, The Atlantic’s Barton Gellman reports that the Trump campaign is making contingency plans along precisely those lines. “With a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, Trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly,” Gellman writes.

Any attempt by Trump and the Republicans to reverse the election results and finagle their way to victory would likely escalate into a constitutional crisis. While any initial rulings would be made at the local level, one or more of the cases could well end up in the Supreme Court. That’s what happened in 2000. After Al Gore demanded manual recounts in four Florida counties, a Florida district court and the Florida Supreme Court both issued rulings. Ultimately, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5–4 decision, halted the recounts and allowed the initial vote certification, which showed George W. Bush as the winner, to stand.

Following the death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, on Friday, there is now a 5–3 conservative majority on the Court. Evidently, Trump doesn’t think this margin is sufficient to wait until after the election for a vote on a ninth Justice. Perhaps he is worried that Chief Justice John Roberts, in a last-gasp effort to protect the reputation and independence of the Court, could join the liberal Justices and rule against him. Perhaps he doesn’t want to take the risk.

In any case, the inner workings of Trump’s mind aren’t of much consequence. As the President, what matters are his words and actions. Right now, he is launching a dangerous attack on U.S. democracy. ...."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colum...t-its-core

I sent this article to my senators via email.
(09-24-2020, 02:19 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Democrats need to get a Senate majority so that they can filibuster any Trump hack as a nominee for Associate Justice  between January 3 and January 21, 2021.  The optimal solution would be for the President to nominate some moderate (as if moderation is any way a part of the President's character) in return for a binding commitment by Democrats to not pack the Court. It is not up to any Party to change the rules of politics at its convenience -- unless that Party is to become a "leading force" (the language that recognized Communist Parties as dominant in some countries until 1989. .  
We already know Trump will nominate an arch conservative approved by the Federalist Society, and the choice is between two women. One is being considered because she is from Florida and could help Trump win the election if appointed. So now Justices are considered as pawns in the election just like the choice of a vice-president often is.

The issue now is how we get to January 3rd. McConnell and Trump will try to get this through before the election. Soon afterward, if Mark Kelly and possibly Rev. Warnock are certified winners in their special elections, they could be seated in November and make it harder to confirm Trump's lackey. Before then, the Democrats will have to use whatever delaying tactics they can muster. There is much more important business before the congress now than giving Trump his kangeroo court.

Quote:I am not sure of whether the lame-duck Vice-President or the incoming one is the President of the Senate between January 3 and January 21. Kamala Harris may have cause to not rush abandoning a Senate seat until January 21. 

Kamala Harris will be president of the Senate on January 3rd, and I assume Gavin Newsom will have someone appointed CA senator on that date. Unless Trump usurps power.

Quote:If the current Republican Party should die, then we might have the start of the 1T as another Era of Good Feelings before a big-tent Democratic Party becomes so unwieldy and itself splits, perhaps into something like Christian Democrats and Social Democrats as in Germany.   

Democrats of all shades need to hope for this to happen before we talk again about 3rd parties and not voting for moderate and corporate Democrats.


Quote:We live in a borderline plutocracy, and when the economic elites believe that nothing matters except their power, indulgence, and gain (note the first initials and what those spell!) who cling to the idea that no human suffering can ever be in excess in stoking the power, indulgence, and gain of those elites (limited only by the fear of a proletarian revolution that would kill those elites upon success). Money does not simply talk in our system; it shouts!

Fortunately the Democrats are raising more money now; the people are donating more.
F--- this guy.



(09-24-2020, 04:35 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]From the New Yorker,

".... some Republican state legislatures, relying on some obscure language in Article II of the Constitution, could even try to nullify the actual votes entirely and appoint slates of Party loyalists as electors to the Electoral College. If you think this sounds too outlandish even for Trump and today’s G.O.P. to consider, think again. Citing Republican sources at the local and national levels, The Atlantic’s Barton Gellman reports that the Trump campaign is making contingency plans along precisely those lines. “With a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, Trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly,” Gellman writes.

Any attempt by Trump and the Republicans to reverse the election results and finagle their way to victory would likely escalate into a constitutional crisis. While any initial rulings would be made at the local level, one or more of the cases could well end up in the Supreme Court. That’s what happened in 2000. After Al Gore demanded manual recounts in four Florida counties, a Florida district court and the Florida Supreme Court both issued rulings. Ultimately, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5–4 decision, halted the recounts and allowed the initial vote certification, which showed George W. Bush as the winner, to stand.

Following the death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, on Friday, there is now a 5–3 conservative majority on the Court. Evidently, Trump doesn’t think this margin is sufficient to wait until after the election for a vote on a ninth Justice. Perhaps he is worried that Chief Justice John Roberts, in a last-gasp effort to protect the reputation and independence of the Court, could join the liberal Justices and rule against him. Perhaps he doesn’t want to take the risk.

In any case, the inner workings of Trump’s mind aren’t of much consequence. As the President, what matters are his words and actions. Right now, he is launching a dangerous attack on U.S. democracy. ...."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colum...t-its-core

I sent this article to my senators via email.
Eric, it doesn't matter who does what at this point because the damage is already done at this point. We'll see how rich and powerful and violent the left is within a few months.
(09-24-2020, 10:26 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]F--- this guy.




Fuck you and the Democrats these days.
(09-23-2020, 01:01 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2020, 11:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2020, 10:27 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]I suspect (Biden) was less senile than a bit out of practice in the speech department.  He has a serious stuttering problem, and that never totally disappears.  Regular practice keeps it under control, so Biden should be as good as he'll get by debate time.   Trump continues to just ramble and bluster, which is just what his followers (and no one else) prefer.

He's a career politician. He's not campaigning like Trump because he's unable to campaign like Trump.

Trump just doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself, so having massive rallies without masks is fine, as long as everyone near him has one on. If they get too sick to vote, he'll be pissed about that--pissed at them!
If Trump didn't care about anyone but himself, Trump would have stayed out of politics and remained a private citizen. So, what's your problem with middle class voters? Why are you such a prick to them? You can be frank, I'm not one of them. I'm culturally related like most Americans, but I'm not one of them. So, if a vaccine is available, are you going to get one or wait for permission from the Democrats to get one?
(09-23-2020, 01:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]If we don't want to let Classic Xer have his way, and have to consider the pros and cons of secession, then the Democrats need a big win in the Senate.

RBG's untimely death is in my opinion potentially the worst USA national tragedy since JFK. The congress needs to use all available tactics to block the vote for her successor.

If that fails, the Democrats need to win a several-seat majority this November so that they can overturn the filibuster and pack the Court. They will need more than a majority so that a few reluctant Democrats can't stop filibuster and Court reform. The Democrats currently lead by 5 points or more in Maine, Colorado, Arizona and North Carolina, the 4 states they need to take control if Harris becomes VP. They are also tied or a point ahead in Georgia (Ossoff vs. Perdue), South Carolina (Harrison vs. Graham) and Iowa (Greenfield vs. Ernst), and are about 1 point behind in Montana (Bullock vs. Daines). If the Democrats surge, they are within about 5 points in Alaska, Texas, Georgia (Warnock vs. Loeffler), and Kansas, and Amy McGrath is getting lots of donations to throw against Moscow Mitch in Kentucky. Some claim that the Democrats can win in Mississippi. Democratic Senator Jones in Alabama seems likely to be deposed.

If Kelly in AZ and Warnock in GA both win their special elections, they could take office in late November and stop the nomination if it is blocked that long. I don't know if McConnell or the governor of AZ could block them from taking office, but by law they are supposed to be seated right away. Blocking until January might be easier too when Kelly takes office.

Fall back measures if the Democrats win include reducing the filibuster to 55 rather than eliminating it, but if they can only do that, they should put back the filibuster to 55 for the Supreme Court too. The Democrats also need to make Puerto Rico a state and provide DC with two senators as soon as they can, to help balance the electoral college and the senate from its rural and southern majority, originally created to keep slave states in the union in 1787.

Term limits for the Court have also been suggested, and I wonder if this could be made retroactive. I doubt it. Another idea is that the extra justices could be seated with the proviso that when future justices are added, they don't need to be replaced on death or retirement until the number goes back down to 9. The fanatical and extreme, ruthless nature of the Republican minority that now controls our country through the Senate, Electoral College and Supreme Court is, in my estimation, a temporary aberration, and so these court packing and filibuster measures could be made temporary as well.
So, how many Americans really want to see a radical Senate that matches the radical House we've seen/ see these days? So, how many billions can your billionaires afford to loose and how are their losses going to impact you and your state? So, how much value do your rich place on their lives and the lives of their loved ones and their property and so forth? I mean, they've already shown us that they don't care about us or our values and so forth. So, what is there to stop us from getting more and more personal with them? I hope your tech sector has got enough cash to cover all of our withdraws and the damages we begin to inflict on their companies and personal lives.
(09-24-2020, 01:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2020, 01:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]If we don't want to let Classic Xer have his way, and have to consider the pros and cons of secession, then the Democrats need a big win in the Senate.

RBG's untimely death is in my opinion potentially the worst USA national tragedy since JFK. The congress needs to use all available tactics to block the vote for her successor.

If that fails, the Democrats need to win a several-seat majority this November so that they can overturn the filibuster and pack the Court. They will need more than a majority so that a few reluctant Democrats can't stop filibuster and Court reform. The Democrats currently lead by 5 points or more in Maine, Colorado, Arizona and North Carolina, the 4 states they need to take control if Harris becomes VP. They are also tied or a point ahead in Georgia (Ossoff vs. Perdue), South Carolina (Harrison vs. Graham) and Iowa (Greenfield vs. Ernst), and are about 1 point behind in Montana (Bullock vs. Daines). If the Democrats surge, they are within about 5 points in Alaska, Texas, Georgia (Warnock vs. Loeffler), and Kansas, and Amy McGrath is getting lots of donations to throw against Moscow Mitch in Kentucky. Some claim that the Democrats can win in Mississippi. Democratic Senator Jones in Alabama seems likely to be deposed.

If Kelly in AZ and Warnock in GA both win their special elections, they could take office in late November and stop the nomination if it is blocked that long. I don't know if McConnell or the governor of AZ could block them from taking office, but by law they are supposed to be seated right away. Blocking until January might be easier too when Kelly takes office.

Fall back measures if the Democrats win include reducing the filibuster to 55 rather than eliminating it, but if they can only do that, they should put back the filibuster to 55 for the Supreme Court too. The Democrats also need to make Puerto Rico a state and provide DC with two senators as soon as they can, to help balance the electoral college and the senate from its rural and southern majority, originally created to keep slave states in the union in 1787.

Term limits for the Court have also been suggested, and I wonder if this could be made retroactive. I doubt it. Another idea is that the extra justices could be seated with the proviso that when future justices are added, they don't need to be replaced on death or retirement until the number goes back down to 9. The fanatical and extreme, ruthless nature of the Republican minority that now controls our country through the Senate, Electoral College and Supreme Court is, in my estimation, a temporary aberration, and so these court packing and filibuster measures could be made temporary as well.
So, how many Americans really want to see a radical Senate that matches the radical House we've seen/ see these days? So, how many billions can your billionaires afford to loose and how are their losses going to impact you and your state? So, how much value do your rich place on their lives and the lives of their loved ones and their property and so forth? I mean, they've already shown us that they don't care about us or our values and so forth. So, what is there to stop us from getting more and more personal with them? I hope your tech sector has got enough cash to cover all of our withdraws and the damages we begin to inflict on their companies and personal lives.

Your policies are the ones that support and enable billionaires. Under your policies they get to keep all their wealth rather than pay any taxes or observe any restrictions on their plunder. So don't talk to me about my billionaires again.
(09-24-2020, 12:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2020, 10:26 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]F--- this guy.




Fuck you and the Democrats these days.

Move to Saudi Arabia, Classic Xer. We've got to take your knee off our necks.
The choice between our political parties could not be more clear or stark now. If you vote Republican, you are voting against democracy and for authoritarian tyranny (and administered by an unfit, racist dufus). If you vote Democratic, you are voting for democracy.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc...2433989827
(09-24-2020, 03:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The choice between our political parties could not be more clear or stark now. If you vote Republican, you are voting against democracy and for authoritarian tyranny (and administered by an unfit, racist dufus). If you vote Democratic, you are voting for democracy.

Thing is, he still has over a month to make it still more clear and stark.  Somehow, I feel confident that somehow he will.  Enough to demonstrate it even to Classic?  I don't know.  That is an awful strong bar.
(09-24-2020, 04:23 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2020, 03:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The choice between our political parties could not be more clear or stark now. If you vote Republican, you are voting against democracy and for authoritarian tyranny (and administered by an unfit, racist dufus). If you vote Democratic, you are voting for democracy.

Thing is, he still has over a month to make it still more clear and stark.  Somehow, I feel confident that somehow he will.  Enough to demonstrate it even to Classic?  I don't know.  That is an awful strong bar.

Very strong, considering that when presented with clear evidence, he replies "fuck you and the Democrats"
When your political agenda is nothing more than "stick it to the opponents", you eventually end up in the position in which others stick it to you. It's a primitive attitude, one that some people never outgrow.
People in Ohio may be getting straight on who and what Trump is, but in Florida, maybe they can't see it.

Polling averages for Sept.25, 2 AM EDT
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol.../national/

National Biden +7.1

Arizona Biden +3.8
Colorado Biden +9.9
Florida Biden +1.5
Georgia Trump +1.1
Iowa Trump +0.8
Kansas Trump +9.0
Louisiana Trump +10.8 
Michigan Biden +7.0
Minnesota Biden +9.1
Missouri Trump +6.8
Montana Trump +8.1
Nevada Biden +6.9
New Hampshire Biden +6.7
North Carolina Biden +1.1
Ohio Biden +1.0
Pennsylvania Biden +4.7
South Carolina Trump +6.9
Texas Trump +2.0
Virginia Biden +10 
Wisconsin Biden +6.5

270towin polling averages
https://www.270towin.com/content/2020-pr...te-polling

AZ Biden +4
CO Biden +10.6
FL Biden +0.8
GA Trump +0.2
IA Trump +1.5
ME CD2 Biden +4.5
MI Biden +5.1
MN Biden +9.4
MO Trump +8
MT Trump +6
NC Biden +0.8
NV Biden +6.6
OH Biden +1.2
PA Biden +4.6
SC Trump +6
TX Trump +2.5
VA Biden +9.5
WI Biden +6.6
(09-24-2020, 03:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The choice between our political parties could not be more clear or stark now. If you vote Republican, you are voting against democracy and for authoritarian tyranny (and administered by an unfit, racist dufus). If you vote Democratic, you are voting for democracy.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc...2433989827
Honestly, I don't know WTF you guys are voting for these days.
(09-24-2020, 08:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]When your political agenda is nothing more than "stick it to the opponents", you eventually end up in the position in which others stick it  to you. It's a primitive attitude, one that some people never outgrow.
You're a logical man at times. It's to bad that you're not able to see and equally apply these days. "Stick it to the opponents" seems to be the common theme of both sides these days vs the common theme of the Liberal side. I assume the old social buffers and protections that still existed back then no longer exists today which means we are much closer to directly responding to each other with violence or equal in kind than we were twenty years ago. I have to say, you aren't as hard to attack and criticize as you're Liberal predecessors were back then. Plus, Karma's a bitch.
(09-25-2020, 02:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2020, 03:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The choice between our political parties could not be more clear or stark now. If you vote Republican, you are voting against democracy and for authoritarian tyranny (and administered by an unfit, racist dufus). If you vote Democratic, you are voting for democracy.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc...2433989827
Honestly, I don't know WTF you guys are voting for these days.

You don't understand what our side is saying, obviously. You never have. But WE understand YOU guys.

Perhaps it could be explained this way. We are voting for knowledge and understanding, and you are voting for ignorance.
(09-25-2020, 03:33 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2020, 02:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2020, 03:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The choice between our political parties could not be more clear or stark now. If you vote Republican, you are voting against democracy and for authoritarian tyranny (and administered by an unfit, racist dufus). If you vote Democratic, you are voting for democracy.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watc...2433989827
Honestly, I don't know WTF you guys are voting for these days.

You don't understand what our side is saying, obviously. You never have. But WE understand YOU guys.

Perhaps it could be explained this way. We are voting for knowledge and understanding, and you are voting for ignorance.

Or we are voting on principle, for all men being equal under law and the like.  They are voting for their tribe, which seems more acceptable and true than elitist and racist.  It seems harsh to say the tribal crowd does not value or understand principle, but minorities trying to say how it is unacceptable that their group is being regularly murdered seems impossible to explain to folks like Classic.  Things like principle are just not applicable when the us and them of tribalism dominates one's thoughts.  Under tribalism, one is supposed to reject and dominate people who are supposedly not like you.  It is a feature of the tribal way of thought, basic, not something to be ashamed of.
(09-25-2020, 03:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2020, 08:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]When your political agenda is nothing more than "stick it to the opponents", you eventually end up in the position in which others stick it  to you. It's a primitive attitude, one that some people never outgrow.
You're a logical man at times. It's to bad that you're not able to see and equally apply these days. "Stick it to the opponents" seems to be the common theme of both sides these days vs the common theme of the Liberal side. I assume the old social buffers and protections that still existed back then no longer exists today which means we are much closer to directly responding to each other with violence or equal in kind than we were twenty years ago. I have to say, you aren't as hard to attack and criticize as you're Liberal predecessors were back then. Plus, Karma's a bitch.

Well, we can agree karma is a bitch. Welcome to the 4T. Have you figured out what happens next?
It looks to me, considering Trump's intentions, that revolution and civil war may be around the corner. It was on thing to think it might happen in 2025 after Trump was gone. But he may never be gone until the people throw him out.

Trump in power is not acceptable; period. We can't let the planet burn up and get flooded out. We can't destroy all the agencies of government and all they do to protect us. We can't allow our voting rights and democracy to be abolished. We can't be left at the mercy of the oligarchy and all this means for our health care, our working environment, our infrastructure, our education system; everything all destroyed.

Will we need to declare an alternate state, and assemble an army to defend it? Can we storm the white house with this army? Will we need to defend ourselves somehow from Trump's access to the nuclear codes? Can blue states secede and make it stick, with arms if necessary, without losing parts of the blue states? Will the rebels see no other way than just to lash out and burn federal buildings to the ground in cities across the land, thereby inviting Trump to send his thugs and goons to crush us before a real revolution can even begin? Or will we just give up and let the USA fade away?