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And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.
I'm writing to the senators who could flip the Senate. Here's what I wrote. I suggest others write to them as well, and to their own Democratic senators as I have also done.

Dear Captain Kelly, Gov. Hickenlooper, Senator Cunningham, Speaker Gideon, Jon Ossoff,
I have contributed to your campaign for US Senate, and am deciding whether to contribute more. I am very, very concerned however, that Democrats will just be a moderate Party when there is no "bipartisanship" on the other side. As I see it, only by removing or reducing the filibuster as Sen. Warren proposes can anything be accomplished by congress. A reactionary 6-3 Republican Court will overturn most if not all legislation or action that you may achieve as a senator if Democrats control the Senate. The Republicans under McConnell removed the filibuster for approving their new reactionary justices. This after they used that very filibuster to block almost all of President Obama's appellate and supreme court nominees for 2 years without so much as a hearing. Now they want to ram through an ultra-right wing justice to replace liberal Justice Ginsberg against her dying wishes in the middle of an election, which would end all progress in our society for 20 years. Our situation is not like FDR's when he famously tried to pack the Court. It supposedly didn't work, and yet the threat of doing so pushed some justices to the center. And they were all much older than today's inflexible young ideologues on the Court. Please, keep your options open. The Supreme Court has become a political institution. There should be more justices, term limits and restrictions on how many justices a president can appoint, as Rep. Ro Khanna proposes in his new bill. Democrats must play rough and be bold, or else condemn us to another stalemate like happened under Clinton and Obama in which virtually nothing got done for 8 long years. The result was that the voters saw the Democrats as weak and voted them out after just 2 years, and then voted the Republicans into full power. Democrats must do what is necessary, or we face the loss of a livable climate and a banana republic status for our country. We must move forward after 40 years of neo-liberal regression. It is time for reform and progress to restart again!

Thanks for your consideration,
Eric A Meece
(10-08-2020, 09:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.

What is incredible is that the reactionaries like Trump and our own Classic Xer scream and shout about "law and order" and denounce peaceful protesters as rioters, and then condone and promote at least a climate in which this kind of lawless terrorism and attack on our country can occur.
(10-08-2020, 10:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.

What is incredible is that the reactionaries like Trump and our own Classic Xer scream and shout about "law and order" and denounce peaceful protesters as rioters, and then condone and promote at least a climate in which this kind of lawless terrorism and attack on our country can occur.

As I expressed in a "Howe and the 1T" forum post, I believe we have just passed the 4T tipping point.  What worked for Trump in 2016, maybe even early 2020, will no longer work.  I believe we have now toppled every institution we hold dear - to include health, police, post office and the Supreme Court.  "Law and Order" strategy is just kicking at ghosts.

I believe people are now looking for stability so that new ideas may flourish.  If the first debate was any indication, people are turned off by the fighting.  Also true in culture - a spoken word poet won AGT.  Singers are releasing introspective songs.  We'll see where the movies and TV go, but flashy seems out.

National Polls are rapidly moving - and I believe the election is no longer ideological-driven  Many centrist Republicans have joined the Biden side.  People are just tired of kicking sand castles.
(10-09-2020, 04:39 AM)Arkarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 10:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.

What is incredible is that the reactionaries like Trump and our own Classic Xer scream and shout about "law and order" and denounce peaceful protesters as rioters, and then condone and promote at least a climate in which this kind of lawless terrorism and attack on our country can occur.

As I expressed in a "Howe and the 1T" forum post, I believe we have just passed the 4T tipping point.  What worked for Trump in 2016, maybe even early 2020, will no longer work.  I believe we have now toppled every institution we hold dear - to include health, police, post office and the Supreme Court.  "Law and Order" strategy is just kicking at ghosts.

I believe people are now looking for stability so that new ideas may flourish.  If the first debate was any indication, people are turned off by the fighting.  Also true in culture - a spoken word poet won AGT.  Singers are releasing introspective songs.  We'll see where the movies and TV go, but flashy seems out.

National Polls are rapidly moving - and I believe the election is no longer ideological-driven  Many centrist Republicans have joined the Biden side.  People are just tired of kicking sand castles.

Thanks for your opinion. Welcome back to the T4T board.

I think we are just now passing a tipping point. 

The debate revealed mostly the desperate fight by one guy to stay in office by blocking and drowning out his opponent, which he has done in many ways: trying to invalidate the ballots, refusing to say he will leave office, not respecting the law, and refusing to lead the country. It was a turn-off. It was a turning point toward Biden, and I hope toward progress; and not toward centrism. Centrism today is, and can only be, resignation and surrender to indefinite stalemate and failed government. There is virtually no center that matters; no side to compromise or deal with. The opposition is fanatical and extreme.

I don't see much in our current culture but rot. It is hard to pick out one trend in it, it is so diverse and disconnected, and still so commercial. No trend to indicate anything in our political life.

No, the fighting has just begun. The polarization is real because urgent needs have been unmet for 40 years. The election remains ideologically-driven. It's just that the blue side is more pragmatic, and more afraid of the red side's power, so it mostly remains too centrist to really address the problems. The Left agrees with Sanders, but chose Biden in order to win, because more centrists might join in. But as the urgency grows, Democrats have moved leftward, and this shift will continue, as it must, because the left is simply the resolve to do what needs to be done, while the right-wing is simply the fear and delusion that causes people to resist the needed changes. 

You can see this in the campaign rhetoric at all levels. There is a definite movement to address needs and desires on the blue side. It is no longer just a centrist mishmash of indecision, and there is more recognition that we are in a fight for our lives, as the Parkland kids put it. And, we are. The Left is not kicking at sand castles, but at the stone walls which the Republicans have erected since the sixties to forestall the change then begun. And they must be kicked over in this decade.

That's how I see it. I may be wrong, and like to see all sides.
(10-09-2020, 04:39 AM)Arkarch Wrote: [ -> ]As I expressed in a "Howe and the 1T" forum post, I believe we have just passed the 4T tipping point.  What worked for Trump in 2016, maybe even early 2020, will no longer work.  I believe we have now toppled every institution we hold dear - to include health, police, post office and the Supreme Court.  "Law and Order" strategy is just kicking at ghosts.

I believe people are now looking for stability so that new ideas may flourish.  If the first debate was any indication, people are turned off by the fighting.  Also true in culture - a spoken word poet won AGT.  Singers are releasing introspective songs.  We'll see where the movies and TV go, but flashy seems out.

National Polls are rapidly moving - and I believe the election is no longer ideological-driven  Many centrist Republicans have joined the Biden side.  People are just tired of kicking sand castles.

I agree we have passed a 4T tipping point.  The question is less have we reached it at this point, but what we have reached and why?  I have been trying to figure out the cultural divide from years.   I’ve come to look at it from a bunch of angles.  Which one is most relevant?  What element once leaned towards the conservatives and is now leaning the other way?

After a little thought, the answer seems all of the above.

There are now more working poor votes than racist votes.  The selfish period of the S&H turnings has passed.  It is time to sacrifice for the community rather than be selfish.  We have taken ignoring problems, small government and low taxes too far.  The corruption of government is becoming not tolerable.  We have ignored science too much.  COVID is too deadly.

While all of the above might have flipped in time, Trump in his desperation to cling to power, has made parts of America that are neither red or blue not work.  He has hurt our elections, our post office, well, everything Arkarch mentioned above.  Folks that would have clung to one aspect or another of the old regime have to reconsider.

I am not sure people are tired so much as the Republicans have split themselves hopelessly.  The Trump Base, the establishment and the true conservatives are going to have to fight for the remnants leaving the Democrats a time of being dominant.  Not sure which Republican faction will come out on top.  The transition of power has to happen first, which is looking interesting enough.
Poll averages Oct.9, 5 PM EDT, edited Oct.10 9 AM EDT

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

National Biden +10.1

Alaska Trump +4.5
Arizona Biden +3.7
Colorado Biden +11.8
Florida Biden +4.3
Georgia Biden +0.9
Iowa Biden +1.1
Kansas Trump +6.8
Maine CD2 Biden +1.1
Michigan Biden +8.3
Minnesota Biden +9.1
Missouri Trump +5.6
Montana Trump +8.7
Nevada Biden +6.9
New Hampshire Biden +10.7
North Carolina Biden +2.8
Ohio Biden +0.9
Pennsylvania Biden +7.1
South Carolina Trump +5.4
Texas Trump +1.7
Virginia Biden +12.5
Wisconsin Biden +7.3

[Image: OvnyE]
(10-09-2020, 04:39 AM)Arkarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 10:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.

What is incredible is that the reactionaries like Trump and our own Classic Xer scream and shout about "law and order" and denounce peaceful protesters as rioters, and then condone and promote at least a climate in which this kind of lawless terrorism and attack on our country can occur.

As I expressed in a "Howe and the 1T" forum post, I believe we have just passed the 4T tipping point.  What worked for Trump in 2016, maybe even early 2020, will no longer work.  I believe we have now toppled every institution we hold dear - to include health, police, post office and the Supreme Court.  "Law and Order" strategy is just kicking at ghosts.

Welcome back, Arkarch!

The literal meaning of law and order is that people can feel generally safe from criminal behavior. That old meaning implies that people accept the rule of law as the expected standard of personal conduct. Lawlessness is not liberty. Does anyone want to take a trip to Venezuela, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, or Somalia? Brutal policing is the dog-whistle expression of law-and-order, basically "open season for black and brown people by the police". 

Donald Trump has taken the dubious ideal of Homo oeconomicus to its preposterous conclusion, degrading civil institutions or aligning himself with people who do so. He is not alone.  There have been politicians and such right-wing shock-jocks as Rush Limbaugh (or as I am tempted to call him, "Rash Libel"). He has degraded institutions and the moral foundation of civil society to the extent that much of the work of the remaining part of the Crisis will be either restitution and reform of existing institutions.


Quote:I believe people are now looking for stability so that new ideas may flourish.  If the first debate was any indication, people are turned off by the fighting.  Also true in culture - a spoken word poet won AGT.  Singers are releasing introspective songs.  We'll see where the movies and TV go, but flashy seems out.

It is unlikely that this indicates any awakening... but note that the Millennial Generation may have just fully left childhood. The next generation (I am tempted to call it Homeland) will be marked (as is typical of an Adaptive/Artist generation) by a capacity for self-doubt. I see a divide between 2001 and 2002 cohorts in that the Millennial Generation did not miss out on the rites of passage in pure form that the Homeland generation has often had to put off or modify -- from First Communions to bar mitzvahs, quinceaneras, debutante balls, and senior proms. Hivh-school sports became far more difficult and meaningless. Such will mark and mar them, and their cultural expressions will show this.      

Quote:National Polls are rapidly moving - and I believe the election is no longer ideological-driven  Many centrist Republicans have joined the Biden side.  People are just tired of kicking sand castles.

I see a political realignment en masse underway. The plot against Governor Gretchen Whitmer (D, Michigan) demonstrates how badly things can spiral out of control. We may be heading into a sort of Era of Good Feelings in which people coalesce around some political consensus in which we share a recognition for the need of effective institutions and for social equity as well.
(10-08-2020, 10:54 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I'm writing to the senators who could flip the Senate. Here's what I wrote. I suggest others write to them as well, and to their own Democratic senators as I have also done.

Dear Captain Kelly, Gov. Hickenlooper, Senator Cunningham, Speaker Gideon, Jon Ossoff,
I have contributed to your campaign for US Senate, and am deciding whether to contribute more. I am very, very concerned however, that Democrats will just be a moderate Party when there is no "bipartisanship" on the other side. As I see it, only by removing or reducing the filibuster as Sen. Warren proposes can anything be accomplished by congress. A reactionary 6-3 Republican Court will overturn most if not all legislation or action that you may achieve as a senator if Democrats control the Senate. The Republicans under McConnell removed the filibuster for approving their new reactionary justices. This after they used that very filibuster to block almost all of President Obama's appellate and supreme court nominees for 2 years without so much as a hearing. Now they want to ram through an ultra-right wing justice to replace liberal Justice Ginsberg against her dying wishes in the middle of an election, which would end all progress in our society for 20 years. Our situation is not like FDR's when he famously tried to pack the Court. It supposedly didn't work, and yet the threat of doing so pushed some justices to the center. And they were all much older than today's inflexible young ideologues on the Court. Please, keep your options open. The Supreme Court has become a political institution. There should be more justices, term limits and restrictions on how many justices a president can appoint, as Rep. Ro Khanna proposes in his new bill. Democrats must play rough and be bold, or else condemn us to another stalemate like happened under Clinton and Obama in which virtually nothing got done for 8 long years. The result was that the voters saw the Democrats as weak and voted them out after just 2 years, and then voted the Republicans into full power. Democrats must do what is necessary, or we face the loss of a livable climate and a banana republic status for our country. We must move forward after 40 years of neo-liberal regression. It is time for reform and progress to restart again!

Thanks for your consideration,
Eric A Meece
Is there bipartisanship on the other side (your side)? So, how do the Liberal judges vote? So, what are you going to do when the Republicans take back the Senate 2022? So, whose money did you use to gain influence with a Republican senator? Eric, having read this, you can pretty much guarantee that I won't be ignoring your posts. Gee, I may have to write him as well and send a copy of this to Trump and Tucker Carlson on Fox News.
(10-09-2020, 04:39 AM)Arkarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 10:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.

What is incredible is that the reactionaries like Trump and our own Classic Xer scream and shout about "law and order" and denounce peaceful protesters as rioters, and then condone and promote at least a climate in which this kind of lawless terrorism and attack on our country can occur.

As I expressed in a "Howe and the 1T" forum post, I believe we have just passed the 4T tipping point.  What worked for Trump in 2016, maybe even early 2020, will no longer work.  I believe we have now toppled every institution we hold dear - to include health, police, post office and the Supreme Court.  "Law and Order" strategy is just kicking at ghosts.

I believe people are now looking for stability so that new ideas may flourish.  If the first debate was any indication, people are turned off by the fighting.  Also true in culture - a spoken word poet won AGT.  Singers are releasing introspective songs.  We'll see where the movies and TV go, but flashy seems out.

National Polls are rapidly moving - and I believe the election is no longer ideological-driven  Many centrist Republicans have joined the Biden side.  People are just tired of kicking sand castles.
We're pretty early (less than a year) to be passing tipping points don't you think. So, why are you joining Gumby's side? Gumby is Biden. Did Trump hurt your feelings or what? I'd like to hear your perspective since we used to be on the same side. Do you like violence? You must not mind it since you're on the side with the people who are supporting it. You're right, we aren't ideological, beholden to beliefs or influences associated big government and neither is Donal Trump. You're also right, you're beloved institutions are pretty much bloated and over weight and greedy and largely ineffective these days. I hate to say this but Fauci was a clown who bounced between entertainment and regular contractions. I wonder who his powerful friend was who got him into his cozy government. I mean, it's only in government that someone can contradict themself so many times and remain employed. It's not that I degree with the Left about the need for a change of government because I do agree with them on that point. Oh, there is a side that's still ideologically driven and your politically aligned with it right now. Dumb move in my opinion. So, you think electing Hoover would be go for you right now with us on the other side. So, which would you prefer to have this time around a depression that results in a partial collapse of the US Government or American Civil War II or a Marxist Revolutionary War of sorts depending on how you see it?
(10-09-2020, 11:38 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree we have passed a 4T tipping point.  The question is less have we reached it at this point, but what we have reached and why?  I have been trying to figure out the cultural divide from years.   I’ve come to look at it from a bunch of angles.  Which one is most relevant?  What element once leaned towards the conservatives and is now leaning the other way?

After a little thought, the answer seems all of the above.

There are now more working poor votes than racist votes.  The selfish period of the S&H turnings has passed.  It is time to sacrifice for the community rather than be selfish.  We have taken ignoring problems, small government and low taxes too far.  The corruption of government is becoming not tolerable.  We have ignored science too much.  COVID is too deadly.

While all of the above might have flipped in time, Trump in his desperation to cling to power, has made parts of America that are neither red or blue not work.  He has hurt our elections, our post office, well, everything Arkarch mentioned above.  Folks that would have clung to one aspect or another of the old regime have to reconsider.

I am not sure people are tired so much as the Republicans have split themselves hopelessly.  The Trump Base, the establishment and the true conservatives are going to have to fight for the remnants leaving the Democrats a time of being dominant.  Not sure which Republican faction will come out on top.  The transition of power has to happen first, which is looking interesting enough.
We're kind of at the tipping point. I know this will go against popular opinion here, but if you already voted for Biden, you voted for Hoover instead and you'll see the tipping point you're looking for afterwards. The Democrats have been riding on laurels of a bygone age it no longer represents and its going to pay the ultimate price for years of lying and deceit. I don't know a Democrat who isn't a Democrat first or a Liberal who isn't a Liberal first. As far as now and Trumps reelection, it's a tipping point too. Either way, it's bad news for you and the Liberal's. You're fortunate that your region has more historical significance to America than the West Coast.
(10-09-2020, 09:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2020, 11:38 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree we have passed a 4T tipping point.  The question is less have we reached it at this point, but what we have reached and why?  I have been trying to figure out the cultural divide from years.   I’ve come to look at it from a bunch of angles.  Which one is most relevant?  What element once leaned towards the conservatives and is now leaning the other way?

After a little thought, the answer seems all of the above.

There are now more working poor votes than racist votes.  The selfish period of the S&H turnings has passed.  It is time to sacrifice for the community rather than be selfish.  We have taken ignoring problems, small government and low taxes too far.  The corruption of government is becoming not tolerable.  We have ignored science too much.  COVID is too deadly.

While all of the above might have flipped in time, Trump in his desperation to cling to power, has made parts of America that are neither red or blue not work.  He has hurt our elections, our post office, well, everything Arkarch mentioned above.  Folks that would have clung to one aspect or another of the old regime have to reconsider.

I am not sure people are tired so much as the Republicans have split themselves hopelessly.  The Trump Base, the establishment and the true conservatives are going to have to fight for the remnants leaving the Democrats a time of being dominant.  Not sure which Republican faction will come out on top.  The transition of power has to happen first, which is looking interesting enough.
We're kind of at the tipping point. I know this will go against popular opinion here, but if you already voted for Biden, you voted for Hoover instead and you'll see the tipping point you're looking for afterwards. The Democrats have been riding on laurels of a bygone age it no longer represents and its going to pay the ultimate price for years of lying and deceit. I don't know a Democrat who isn't a Democrat first or a Liberal who isn't a Liberal first. As far as now and Trumps reelection, it's a tipping point too. Either way, it's bad news for you and the Liberal's. You're fortunate that your region has more historical significance to America than the West Coast.

The time when America was great was when the tax and spend liberals supported the working man.  If the working man does well, it does trickle up, if not necessarily vice versa.  That time ended when LBJ went for the black vote, and the Republicans went for the racists.  There were just more racist voters than working poor.  At least that was the pattern until the policies created more working poor.  We had a selfish unravelling and a dominant Republican Party supporting the racists and elites.

That dynamic seems to have changed.  The racists are no longer dominant, and without the racist votes the pro elite people will have trouble finding votes.  The Democrats may go back to supporting the working man and solving problems for a while.  They might well echo their FDR to LBJ heyday.  The red attempts to ignore the two issues that have surfaced in the crisis - COVUS and violent racist policing - are non starters given that in a 4T the government is focused on solving the major problems of the culture.

Hoover?  His problem was a belief that the government never had and thus shouldn't try to regulate the economy.  Thus he did nothing with the boom and bust economy that led to the Great Depression.  FDR didn't have that problem, nor does either party today.

I would not have chosen Biden, but if he borrows enough ideas from Sanders and Warren he is apt to do OK.
(10-08-2020, 10:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.

What is incredible is that the reactionaries like Trump and our own Classic Xer scream and shout about "law and order" and denounce peaceful protesters as rioters, and then condone and promote at least a climate in which this kind of lawless terrorism and attack on our country can occur.
I don't have a problem with peaceful protestors. I do have a problem with peaceful protestors who support rioters by ignoring curfews and so forth. You forget, we already KNOW the Liberals cheat and rarely play by the rules. PB's right, we have the same devices as those who filmed the incident with George Floyd and access to all kinds of other devices like them as well. Oh, and we have access to platforms and people in the the trade as well. Like I said, we think for a living and when begin to switch from thinking about other things that are more important than you or whatever your problems are and start thinking about you and the problems you cause were start using your own game against you and start stirring up trouble and begin tearing your racist identity driven world apart.
(10-09-2020, 10:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 10:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 09:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] And for some reason, Trump has chosen today to attack the Governor of Michigan...

Trump had a falling-out with the Governor of Michigan early in the COVID-19 crisis. At the time Michigan was fourth in deaths among the states. Michigan is now ninth. Michigan got hit early and hard.

So far there is no link between the President and the Wolverine Watchmen, the clique allegedly involved in the conspiracy. The people involved are linked to anti-mask demonstrations, including an armed demonstration in the Michigan state capitol. We must of course recognize the legal principle of the presumption of innocence. 

Obviously there is no mainstream support for the alleged plot. This said, President Trump promoted contempt for this Governor, singling her out for disobedience to the wannabe despot.

What is incredible is that the reactionaries like Trump and our own Classic Xer scream and shout about "law and order" and denounce peaceful protesters as rioters, and then condone and promote at least a climate in which this kind of lawless terrorism and attack on our country can occur.

I don't have a problem with peaceful protestors. I do have a problem with peaceful protestors who support rioters by ignoring curfews and so forth. You forget, we already KNOW the Liberals cheat and rarely play by the rules. PB's right, we have the same devices as those who filmed the incident with George Floyd and access to all kinds of other devices like them as well. Oh, and we have access to platforms and people in the the trade as well. Like I said, we think for a living and when begin to switch from thinking about other things that are more important than you or whatever your problems are and start thinking about you and the problems you cause were start using your own game against you and start stirring up trouble and begin tearing your racist identity driven world apart.

Playing by the rules accepts that the rules are valid. So it is with sporting events, and so it is with criminal law. Of course when government makes or bends the rules on the side of repression we have a problem.
(10-09-2020, 10:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2020, 09:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2020, 11:38 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree we have passed a 4T tipping point.  The question is less have we reached it at this point, but what we have reached and why?  I have been trying to figure out the cultural divide from years.   I’ve come to look at it from a bunch of angles.  Which one is most relevant?  What element once leaned towards the conservatives and is now leaning the other way?

After a little thought, the answer seems all of the above.

There are now more working poor votes than racist votes.  The selfish period of the S&H turnings has passed.  It is time to sacrifice for the community rather than be selfish.  We have taken ignoring problems, small government and low taxes too far.  The corruption of government is becoming not tolerable.  We have ignored science too much.  COVID is too deadly.

While all of the above might have flipped in time, Trump in his desperation to cling to power, has made parts of America that are neither red or blue not work.  He has hurt our elections, our post office, well, everything Arkarch mentioned above.  Folks that would have clung to one aspect or another of the old regime have to reconsider.

I am not sure people are tired so much as the Republicans have split themselves hopelessly.  The Trump Base, the establishment and the true conservatives are going to have to fight for the remnants leaving the Democrats a time of being dominant.  Not sure which Republican faction will come out on top.  The transition of power has to happen first, which is looking interesting enough.
We're kind of at the tipping point. I know this will go against popular opinion here, but if you already voted for Biden, you voted for Hoover instead and you'll see the tipping point you're looking for afterwards. The Democrats have been riding on laurels of a bygone age it no longer represents and its going to pay the ultimate price for years of lying and deceit. I don't know a Democrat who isn't a Democrat first or a Liberal who isn't a Liberal first. As far as now and Trumps reelection, it's a tipping point too. Either way, it's bad news for you and the Liberal's. You're fortunate that your region has more historical significance to America than the West Coast.

The time when America was great was when the tax and spend liberals supported the working man.  If the working man does well, it does trickle up, if not necessarily vice versa.  That time ended when LBJ went for the black vote, and the Republicans went for the racists.  There were just more racist voters than working poor.  At least that was the pattern until the policies created more working poor.  We had a selfish unravelling and a dominant Republican Party supporting the racists and elites.

That dynamic seems to have changed.  The racists are no longer dominant, and without the racist votes the pro elite people will have trouble finding votes.  The Democrats may go back to supporting the working man and solving problems for a while.  They might well echo their FDR to LBJ heyday.  The red attempts to ignore the two issues that have surfaced in the crisis - COVUS and violent racist policing - are non starters given that in a 4T the government is focused on solving the major problems of the culture.

Hoover?  His problem was a belief that the government never had and thus shouldn't try to regulate the economy.  Thus he did nothing with the boom and bust economy that led to the Great Depression.  FDR didn't have that problem, nor does either party today.

I would not have chosen Biden, but if he borrows enough ideas from Sanders and Warren he is apt to do OK.
I was using Hoover as an easy reference point.
(10-09-2020, 09:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2020, 11:38 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree we have passed a 4T tipping point.  The question is less have we reached it at this point, but what we have reached and why?  I have been trying to figure out the cultural divide from years.   I’ve come to look at it from a bunch of angles.  Which one is most relevant?  What element once leaned towards the conservatives and is now leaning the other way?

After a little thought, the answer seems all of the above.

There are now more working poor votes than racist votes.  The selfish period of the S&H turnings has passed.  It is time to sacrifice for the community rather than be selfish.  We have taken ignoring problems, small government and low taxes too far.  The corruption of government is becoming not tolerable.  We have ignored science too much.  COVID is too deadly.

While all of the above might have flipped in time, Trump in his desperation to cling to power, has made parts of America that are neither red or blue not work.  He has hurt our elections, our post office, well, everything Arkarch mentioned above.  Folks that would have clung to one aspect or another of the old regime have to reconsider.

I am not sure people are tired so much as the Republicans have split themselves hopelessly.  The Trump Base, the establishment and the true conservatives are going to have to fight for the remnants leaving the Democrats a time of being dominant.  Not sure which Republican faction will come out on top.  The transition of power has to happen first, which is looking interesting enough.


We're kind of at the tipping point. I know this will go against popular opinion here, but if you already voted for Biden, you voted for Hoover instead and you'll see the tipping point you're looking for afterwards. The Democrats have been riding on laurels of a bygone age it no longer represents and its going to pay the ultimate price for years of lying and deceit. I don't know a Democrat who isn't a Democrat first or a Liberal who isn't a Liberal first. As far as now and Trumps reelection, it's a tipping point too. Either way, it's bad news for you and the Liberal's. You're fortunate that your region has more historical significance to America than the West Coast.

We take the risk that Joe Biden will be President when the economy tanks. Trump has done as well as he can do to prop up securities prices, but that is typically one of the last games in town as a speculative boom goes bust. Trump is making poor responses to long-term trends, including the end of easy prosperity through production of stuff. Such in part reflects that people are living in tinier dwelling-spaces, so people no longer have the space for the bric-a-brac that they used to have. It is arguable that the used-book market is now bigger than the new-book market because the technology of the Internet has made renting a book (or simply downloading one) easier and more reliable than going to a store to purchase one.

Economic inequality in the US is now on par with what it was in the late 1920's in the last hurrah for the Gilded Age even though everything other than politics and the economic choices of America's "economic royalists" have made -- basically "all for the Few". That is unstable. 

I don't get what bearing "historical significance" has upon the political future.  Colorado now has one more electoral vote than Connecticut. Florida now has as many electoral votes than New York State. 

So let us contrast 1912 (when there were only 48 states, and Dee Cee was not voting) to 2012 (electoral votes will be distributed in 2020 as they were in 2016, and 2016 has some faithless voters mucking up state totals:

1916

In 1920



[Image: pe1916e.png]


2012: 


[Image: pe2012e.png]


Now notice that Massachusetts and Missouri both had 18 electoral votes, but now Arizona (which had only three in 1920) now has as many electoral votes as Massachusetts and one more than Missouri. It is telling that St. Louis was at one time one of the largest cities in the US. New York State had 45 electoral votes, which was more than the 39 that California (13), Texas (20), and Florida (6) had between them. Today New York has 29 electoral votes and California, Texas, and Florida have 122 between them. In 1920, Pennsylvania had 38 electoral votes and Texas had 20. That is now reversed. Oddly, Connecticut and New Jersey have as many electoral votes today as they had a century ago.

One of the biggest losers in electoral votes is Iowa, which now has six but had thirteen a century ago. Even though Iowa has highly-profitable agribusiness as the backbone of its economy, agribusiness has been poor at creating jobs. Add to this, family farms have been consolidated, with many former family farmers finding new lives in the big cities and their suburbs generally not in those states. The more agrarian states of the Mountain and Deep South have also generally lost electoral votes over a century. Except for Texas, the High Plains states that have the boundary between farm and ranch country (roughly US 281 today, which once officially separates "ranch routes" to the west and "farm-to-market routes" in the eastern half of Texas.
(10-10-2020, 12:24 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Playing by the rules accepts that the rules are valid. So it is with sporting events, and so it is with criminal law. Of course when government makes or bends the rules on the side of repression we have a problem.

Playing by the rules accepts there are/will be consequences for breaking them and knowing whether the rules seem valid or not doesn't/isn't going to matter. Are you repressed? Are they really repressed? Was Kamala repressed? Was Obama repressed? Are the thousands that we've seen peaceful protesting or rioting or looting and burning down buildings repressed? Are the ones we see spouting their mouths from their plush looking rooms in their homes on Fox repressed? Give me a break. I'm telling you dude, there's a reason why Fox News Channel is quickly becoming America's news channel. I've heard that their ratings have hit an all time high and surpassed the national news outlets.
(10-10-2020, 03:04 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2020, 09:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2020, 11:38 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree we have passed a 4T tipping point.  The question is less have we reached it at this point, but what we have reached and why?  I have been trying to figure out the cultural divide from years.   I’ve come to look at it from a bunch of angles.  Which one is most relevant?  What element once leaned towards the conservatives and is now leaning the other way?

After a little thought, the answer seems all of the above.

There are now more working poor votes than racist votes.  The selfish period of the S&H turnings has passed.  It is time to sacrifice for the community rather than be selfish.  We have taken ignoring problems, small government and low taxes too far.  The corruption of government is becoming not tolerable.  We have ignored science too much.  COVID is too deadly.

While all of the above might have flipped in time, Trump in his desperation to cling to power, has made parts of America that are neither red or blue not work.  He has hurt our elections, our post office, well, everything Arkarch mentioned above.  Folks that would have clung to one aspect or another of the old regime have to reconsider.

I am not sure people are tired so much as the Republicans have split themselves hopelessly.  The Trump Base, the establishment and the true conservatives are going to have to fight for the remnants leaving the Democrats a time of being dominant.  Not sure which Republican faction will come out on top.  The transition of power has to happen first, which is looking interesting enough.


We're kind of at the tipping point. I know this will go against popular opinion here, but if you already voted for Biden, you voted for Hoover instead and you'll see the tipping point you're looking for afterwards. The Democrats have been riding on laurels of a bygone age it no longer represents and its going to pay the ultimate price for years of lying and deceit. I don't know a Democrat who isn't a Democrat first or a Liberal who isn't a Liberal first. As far as now and Trumps reelection, it's a tipping point too. Either way, it's bad news for you and the Liberal's. You're fortunate that your region has more historical significance to America than the West Coast.

We take the risk that Joe Biden will be President when the economy tanks. Trump has done as well as he can do to prop up securities prices, but that is typically one of the last games in town as a speculative boom goes bust. Trump is making poor responses to long-term trends, including the end of easy prosperity through production of stuff. Such in part reflects that people are living in tinier dwelling-spaces, so people no longer have the space for the bric-a-brac that they used to have. It is arguable that the used-book market is now bigger than the new-book market because the technology of the Internet has made renting a book (or simply downloading one) easier and more reliable than going to a store to purchase one.

Economic inequality in the US is now on par with what it was in the late 1920's in the last hurrah for the Gilded Age even though everything other than politics and the economic choices of America's "economic royalists" have made -- basically "all for the Few". That is unstable. 

I don't get what bearing "historical significance" has upon the political future.  Colorado now has one more electoral vote than Connecticut. Florida now has as many electoral votes than New York State. 

So let us contrast 1912 (when there were only 48 states, and Dee Cee was not voting) to 2012 (electoral votes will be distributed in 2020 as they were in 2016, and 2016 has some faithless voters mucking up state totals:

1916

In 1920



[Image: pe1916e.png]


2012: 


[Image: pe2012e.png]


Now notice that Massachusetts and Missouri both had 18 electoral votes, but now Arizona (which had only three in 1920) now has as many electoral votes as Massachusetts and one more than Missouri. It is telling that St. Louis was at one time one of the largest cities in the US. New York State had 45 electoral votes, which was more than the 39 that California (13), Texas (20), and Florida (6) had between them. Today New York has 29 electoral votes and California, Texas, and Florida have 122 between them. In 1920, Pennsylvania had 38 electoral votes and Texas had 20. That is now reversed. Oddly, Connecticut and New Jersey  have as many electoral votes today as they had a century ago.

One of the biggest losers in electoral votes is Iowa, which now has six but had thirteen a century ago. Even though Iowa has highly-profitable agribusiness as the backbone of its economy, agribusiness has been poor at creating jobs. Add to this, family farms have been consolidated, with many former family farmers finding new lives in the big cities and their suburbs generally not in those states. The more agrarian states of the Mountain and Deep South have also generally lost electoral votes over a century.  Except for Texas, the High Plains states that have the boundary between farm and ranch country (roughly US 281 today, which once officially separates "ranch routes" to the west and "farm-to-market routes" in the eastern half of Texas.
Well, I've been waiting for furnaces that were sold in early September to arrive from the manufacturer Trane. Oh, and then there's parts that aren't available either and parts that are very limited in supply too. So, I am aware that production is down across the board and I understand that the manufacturing work force has been trimmed due to COVID19 restrictions across the board as well.
(10-09-2020, 05:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-08-2020, 10:54 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I'm writing to the senators who could flip the Senate. Here's what I wrote. I suggest others write to them as well, and to their own Democratic senators as I have also done.

Dear Captain Kelly, Gov. Hickenlooper, Senator Cunningham, Speaker Gideon, Jon Ossoff,
I have contributed to your campaign for US Senate, and am deciding whether to contribute more. I am very, very concerned however, that Democrats will just be a moderate Party when there is no "bipartisanship" on the other side. As I see it, only by removing or reducing the filibuster as Sen. Warren proposes can anything be accomplished by congress. A reactionary 6-3 Republican Court will overturn most if not all legislation or action that you may achieve as a senator if Democrats control the Senate. The Republicans under McConnell removed the filibuster for approving their new reactionary justices. This after they used that very filibuster to block almost all of President Obama's appellate and supreme court nominees for 2 years without so much as a hearing. Now they want to ram through an ultra-right wing justice to replace liberal Justice Ginsberg against her dying wishes in the middle of an election, which would end all progress in our society for 20 years. Our situation is not like FDR's when he famously tried to pack the Court. It supposedly didn't work, and yet the threat of doing so pushed some justices to the center. And they were all much older than today's inflexible young ideologues on the Court. Please, keep your options open. The Supreme Court has become a political institution. There should be more justices, term limits and restrictions on how many justices a president can appoint, as Rep. Ro Khanna proposes in his new bill. Democrats must play rough and be bold, or else condemn us to another stalemate like happened under Clinton and Obama in which virtually nothing got done for 8 long years. The result was that the voters saw the Democrats as weak and voted them out after just 2 years, and then voted the Republicans into full power. Democrats must do what is necessary, or we face the loss of a livable climate and a banana republic status for our country. We must move forward after 40 years of neo-liberal regression. It is time for reform and progress to restart again!

Thanks for your consideration,
Eric A Meece

Is there bipartisanship on the other side (your side)? So, how do the Liberal judges vote? So, what are you going to do when the Republicans take back the Senate 2022? So, whose money did you use to gain influence with a Republican senator? Eric, having read this, you can pretty much guarantee that I won't be ignoring your posts. Gee, I may have to write him as well and send a copy of this to Trump and Tucker Carlson on Fox News.

I interpret your idea of bipartisanship that Democrats simply click their heels and support the President no matter what. We all know what President Trump stands for: that all Americans be responsible to an irresponsible elite that owns the assets and has a tight grip on opportunity that it rarely yields. A subservient opposition that never wins anything? That's how it's done in the People's Republic of China.

Donald Trump will still be political poison in 2022 (assuming that he loses the election, which shall be established definitively very soon). The 2020 election looks like a big win for Establishment types as opposed to demagogues of either the Right or Left. Trump seems to have left the pre-Tea Party conservative with no home in the Republican Party. Such people get the Republican Party back lest The Party of Lincoln fade into irrelevance. 

2016 did not prove to be any "reverse wave" for the Tea Party pols in the Senate, but 2022 could be finis to some who aligned themselves with the Tea Party and the "Trump Train". Demographic trends repudiate both the Tea Party and Donald Trump.