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(11-03-2020, 01:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]270towin polling averages, Nov.3, 2 AM EST
https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/
National: Biden +8

https://www.270towin.com/content/2020-pr...te-polling
Alaska Trump +5.6
Arizona Biden +2.2
Florida Biden +3.1
Georgia Biden +0.2
Iowa Trump +1.6
Kansas Trump +8.7
Maine CD2 Biden +1.2
Michigan Biden +5.5
Minnesota Biden +9.8
Missouri Trump +7.6
Montana Trump +5.4
Nevada Biden +5
New Hampshire Biden +11
North Carolina Biden +0.3
Ohio Trump +0.9
Pennsylvania Biden +3.7
South Carolina Trump +7
Texas Trump +1.3
Wisconsin Biden +9.2

95 million have voted.

Not much actually right in this list -- again. Will the pollsters admit they haven't a clue?
(11-04-2020, 10:22 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-03-2020, 01:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]270towin polling averages, Nov.3, 2 AM EST
https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/
National: Biden +8, actual +2.5, although likely to rise since CA is stuck right now

https://www.270towin.com/content/2020-pr...te-polling

Alaska Trump +5.6 actual Trump +31, 50% of the vote counted
Arizona Biden +2.2 actual Biden +2.8, 87% counted
Florida Biden +3.1 actual Trump +3.2
Georgia Biden +0.2 actual Trump +0.5, 97.7% counted
Iowa Trump +1.6 actual Trump +8.2
Kansas Trump +8.7 actual Trump +15.6
Maine CD2 Biden +1.2 actual Trump +7.6
Michigan Biden +5.5 actual Biden +2.4
Minnesota Biden +9.8 actual Biden +7.1
Missouri Trump +7.6 actual Trump +15.6
Montana Trump +5.4 actual Trump +15.2
Nevada Biden +5 actual Biden +0.6, 87% counted, many mail-in ballots from Democratic areas left to count
New Hampshire Biden +11 actual Biden +6.9
North Carolina Biden +0.3 actual Trump +1.4, 97.6% counted
Ohio Trump +0.9 actual Trump +8.2
Pennsylvania Biden +3.7 actual Trump +2.6, 90% counted, many mail-in ballots from Democratic areas left to count
South Carolina Trump +7 actual Trump +12
Texas Trump +1.3 actual Trump +5.8
Wisconsin Biden +9.2 actual Biden +0.7

Not much actually right in this list -- again. Will the pollsters admit they haven't a clue?

Indeed. I spoke well of polls up to now; but this year's performance was worst than last. It may be because Michael Moore is right; Trump voters just don't trust or cooperate with polls, because as Moore said "they are from the deep state." Red staters are thoroughly dominated by the trump myth and conspiracy theory universe. They live in another reality of their own and Trump's making, and given the margins of their vote in red states, and having made swing states closer than expected too, and reelected McConnell, I see them as pretty hopeless. It is not that I hate them, as facebook thinks I do. But they are disgraceful and stupid, at least when it comes to politics and general worldview, however smart many of them may be, (and many of them probably smarter than me), in managing their own lives and work.

Obama sounded great when he said we can't convince them by calling them names, and that he fought for every vote. I just do not see any point to it now.

It is said that many on both sides said that the other side is unacceptable and horrific if they win. It seems, if Biden wins, that the result was that the stalemate continues. The world burns, the oceans rise, droughts wipe out millions, world insecurity grows, inequality and poverty grows, health care reform is destroyed, the national debt balloons, gun massacres and police killings continue, etc., all because of two people in the senate, and because people in some red and purple states re-elected McConnell. Can this really be called such an historic election, then? It could have been, but the result of it all will be business as usual.
(11-05-2020, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It is said that many on both sides said that the other side is unacceptable and horrific if they win. It seems, if Biden wins, that the result was that the stalemate continues. The world burns, the oceans rise, droughts wipe out millions, world insecurity grows, inequality and poverty grows, health care reform is destroyed, the national debt balloons, gun massacres and police killings continue, etc., all because of two people in the senate, and because people in some red and purple states re-elected McConnell. Can this really be called such an historic election, then? It could have been, but the result of it all will be business as usual.

It's hard to see how this plays, other than badly, of course.  McConnell is already working hard to align his caucus against Biden or for Trump, the needs of the country be damned.  Of course, Biden is being his conciliatory self, promising cooperation with people who see that as weakness.  McConnell is already vowing to stop all his cabinet picks unless the GOP approves of them, and that would never be tolerated in reverse.

If I was Biden, and had the authority, the first attempt at this kind of thing would be met with the pledge to close Fort Campbell.  The second, Fort Knox.  If it has to be hardball, play your strongest pitcher.
(11-04-2020, 10:22 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-03-2020, 01:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]270towin polling averages, Nov.3, 2 AM EST
https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/
National: Biden +8

https://www.270towin.com/content/2020-pr...te-polling
Alaska Trump +5.6
Arizona Biden +2.2
Florida Biden +3.1
Georgia Biden +0.2
Iowa Trump +1.6
Kansas Trump +8.7
Maine CD2 Biden +1.2
Michigan Biden +5.5
Minnesota Biden +9.8
Missouri Trump +7.6
Montana Trump +5.4
Nevada Biden +5
New Hampshire Biden +11
North Carolina Biden +0.3
Ohio Trump +0.9
Pennsylvania Biden +3.7
South Carolina Trump +7
Texas Trump +1.3
Wisconsin Biden +9.2

95 million have voted.

Not much actually right in this list -- again. Will the pollsters admit they haven't a clue?

I suspect that President Trump and the GOP made some highly successful ads late in the campaign, including some that blindsided Democrats. He made ads denouncing Joe Biden as a supporter of Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez, and those ensured that he would win Florida. The GOP made a simple ad that ran something like this:


Quote:The election? Let's look at the Democrats. 

Taking away our tax cuts? That will cost us money that we can't afford to be without. 

Violence in the streets? Trump says he will back our police.

Trump tax cuts for the rich? My husband is looking for a job, and we can't afford that.

Donald Trump is a master of the visceral appeal, something powerful if intellectually sleazy in the extreme. It works. The idea is that no matter how you despise him, you need him to protect yourself. 

When it seemed that Trump was winning I contemplated suicide.
Any minority can make a difference, but in view of what Donald trump has said of Islam and Muslims, he may have blown a state that might be the difference between winning and losing the election:

Muslim and Arab Voters May Have Secured Biden’s Michigan Win

Biden beat Trump by roughly 150,000 votes in Michigan, where Hillary Clinton lost by just 11,000 votes in 2016.
headshot

By Rowaida Abdelaziz

Arab and Muslim communities likely substantially contributed to Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden’s victory in Michigan, according to local activists and organizers.

Emgage Action, a Muslim civic advocacy organization that endorsed Biden, said that approximately 81,000 Muslim Americans cast early and absentee votes in the state. (The exact number of votes cast by Muslim Americans in Michigan is not yet known.) Biden beat President Donald Trump by roughly 150,000 votes in Michigan, where Hillary Clinton lost by just 11,000 votes in 2016.

Muslim American groups and activists focused on rallying voters before Election Day — setting up phone banks and virtual town halls aimed at maximizing turnout, especially in battleground states. Those efforts, they said, paid off and Michigan is an example of that.

“Where would the Democrats be without those 81,000 Muslims?” said Nada Al-Hanooti, executive director of Emgage’s Michigan chapter. She said her organization had been working every day since August to register a record number of Muslims as part of their nationwide Million Muslim Votes campaign, and added that Biden’s victory in Michigan could not have happened without the Muslim and Arab vote.

“Muslims showed up for Biden today and we’re going to expect him to show up for us come January,” she said.

Although it is difficult to say for sure, the Arab and Muslim vote in the state appears to have had a significant impact. More than 270,000 Muslim Americans live in Michigan, making up nearly 2.75% of the state’s population. More than one-third of residents in Dearborn, a suburb of Detroit, identify as Arab-American or Muslim or both. Biden defeated Trump in Wayne County, which includes Detroit and Dearborn and is the most populous county in the state.

Dawleh Ahmed (second from left) and Naji Ahmed (left) wait in line to vote at Salina Elementary School on Nov. 3 in Dearborn,
ANTRANIK TAVITIAN/DETROIT FREE PRESS/IMAGN CONTENT SERVICES, LLC
Dawleh Ahmed (second from left) and Naji Ahmed (left) wait in line to vote at Salina Elementary School on Nov. 3 in Dearborn, Michigan.
Nationwide, Muslim American voters turned out in huge numbers this election, which is in line with patterns across all demographics. Preliminary projections from The Washington Post predict that turnout in 2020 was the highest percentage it’s been since 1900, and the highest number of voters ever.

Nearly 800,000 Muslim Americans voted early or absentee in just 12 states, according to Emgage, which collected the data from voter files in those states. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation’s largest Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization, said that roughly 1 million American Muslims voted in the election. Based on its own survey, CAIR estimated that 69% of them backed Biden. (An NPR poll conducted in the days leading up to and on Election Day found that 64% of Muslim Americans voted for Biden and 35% of voted for Trump.)

In 2016, Muslim and Arab voters were credited with Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.)’s primary win over Clinton. And while Biden wasn’t the first choice for many Arab and Muslim residents in the Dearborn area, many strongly opposed Trump due to his anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant policies and rhetoric.

“Just based on all the efforts, I think we really hit the message home that this election is unlike any other election, and it’s a critical matter of life and death to get out the vote this time and I think the community responded really well,” said Sarah Alaoui, a Ph.D. candidate at John Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and a volunteer with Arab Americans for Biden, a grassroots coalition working to elect Biden.

Alaoui believes that Arab Americans’ huge turnout can be attributed to the Biden campaign’s direct engagement with the community; that it spoke to voters in Arabic; and that it reached out to both Arab Muslims and Christians, which showed that it was able to identify and speak to the diversity of the Arab community.

Organizers also said endorsements from Sanders and Wayne County’s own Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) helped galvanized Arab and Muslim voters in the state as well. The results mirror early polling and initial exit polling that suggested that high turnout from Arab and Muslim segments of the state assisted Biden’s win.

Despite their small numbers overall ― Muslims make up just 1% of the U.S. population ― there are significant concentrations of Muslim Americans in key presidential swing states, including Michigan.

Michigan is not only home to a populous and diverse Muslim community, it also has one of the largest mosques in North America, whose congregation can trace its history back 100 years. The state is also the birthplace of the Nation of Islam, a Black political and religious movement founded by Wallace Fard Muhammad in 1930.

Youssef Chouhoud, an assistant professor of political science at Christopher Newport University in Virigina, said both Democrats and Republicans often overlooked Muslim and Arab voters due to their comparatively small population size and historic lack of civic engagement nationwide.

But that’s changing. Although it is difficult to nail down exact numbers, he is confident that a larger trend is at play.

“These numbers are very inexact but what is indisputable is that there has been a much larger turnout in the Arab American community and in the Muslim American community this year than we’ve seen in any previous presidential cycle,” said Chouhoud. “I only see that growing.”

Nationwide, more than 66% of Muslims identify as Democrats, according to a 2018 Pew Research poll. Chouhoud said that it is crucial for Democrats to seize this opportunity to invest in Arab and Muslim voters.

“It is to the benefit of the Democratic Party to nurture that support and not simply take it for granted. Michigan is going to remain a pivotal state in presidential contests moving forward. So if the Democratic Party is wise, they will nurture their support and not simply ignore it,” add Chouhoud.

The work is also far from over for activists; Al-Hanooti said her job isn’t done. Getting out the vote was just the first step to ensure that Arabs and Muslims’ concerns are addressed outside of campaign season.

“Regardless, we know we won right now and we feel good, but we’re still rolling up our sleeves and getting to work,” she said. “No one person is going to save the world. So we still have so much work to do.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/muslim-vo...e97fe77a1f

Wouldn't it be fitting? Surely you must have seen my contrast between southwestern Michigan, a secular cesspool at its worst (drunks, addicts, pushers, whores and pimps wandering about the street, lots of sexually-oriented businesses) and family-friendly Dearborn. Muslims in Dearborn have shaped the political culture to make it the wrong place to be for a drunk, addict, pusher, whore, or pimp; and where sexually-oriented businesses are zoned out. Yes, one can drink in a bar, but be a reeling drunk and you will be busted. A Dearborn police car is on the Dearborn side of the Dearborn-Detroit city limits.

It sounds like my sort of town! Better the mosque than the strip club! Many Christians, Jews, atheists, and agnostics like things that way.

If you suspect Dearborn as a terrorist haven, then think again. The 9/11 plotters stayed clear of Dearborn.
(11-05-2020, 11:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2020, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It is said that many on both sides said that the other side is unacceptable and horrific if they win. It seems, if Biden wins, that the result was that the stalemate continues. The world burns, the oceans rise, droughts wipe out millions, world insecurity grows, inequality and poverty grows, health care reform is destroyed, the national debt balloons, gun massacres and police killings continue, etc., all because of two people in the senate, and because people in some red and purple states re-elected McConnell. Can this really be called such an historic election, then? It could have been, but the result of it all will be business as usual.

It's hard to see how this plays, other than badly, of course.  McConnell is already working hard to align his caucus against Biden or for Trump, the needs of the country be damned.  Of course, Biden is being his conciliatory self, promising cooperation with people who see that as weakness.  McConnell is already vowing to stop all his cabinet picks unless the GOP approves of them, and that would never be tolerated in reverse.

If I was Biden, and had the authority, the first attempt at this kind of thing would be met with the pledge to close Fort Campbell.  The second, Fort Knox.  If it has to be hardball, play your strongest pitcher.

If Democrats are not prepared to play hardball from now on, they will be the losing party soon.
(11-07-2020, 09:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2020, 11:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]If I was Biden, and had the authority, the first attempt at this kind of thing would be met with the pledge to close Fort Campbell.  The second, Fort Knox.  If it has to be hardball, play your strongest pitcher.

If Democrats are not prepared to play hardball from now on, they will be the losing party soon.

The Dems haven't been true winners in decades.  The last truly Liberal/Progressive era was the LBJ Presidency that went south with the Vietnam War.  Everything since has been centrist or conservative, with the middle moving steadily to the right almost continuously (Obama slowed the movement, but that's about it).  

We're now back to my failed 4T scenario, even with the Senate nominally in Dem hands.  If that happens (and it's the best case we get this round) the deciding votes will be Jon Tester of Montana and Joe Manchin of WV -- not inspiring from a Progressive POV.

I wish it was otherwise.
(11-07-2020, 09:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]If Democrats are not prepared to play hardball from now on, they will be the losing party soon.

Ah, still in the argument and divide unravelling mindset, rather than the unify and solve crisis pattern. Wink
(11-09-2020, 11:54 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2020, 09:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]If Democrats are not prepared to play hardball from now on, they will be the losing party soon.

Ah, still in the argument and divide unravelling mindset, rather than the unify and solve crisis pattern.  Wink
I see that you're still clinging to wishful/ hopeful rhetoric and the 3T way of thinking. Guess what, the shoe is on the other foot and you shouldn't believe any of the Liberal love dove kumbuya BS that's being expressed by the Liberal media today. As I mentioned before, it's a race to the bottom and the Democrats are winning and neither Presidential candidate that you and every other Liberal minded fool elected is strong enough to keep this country together.  Eric and I have been in agreement for several years, we just differ in who we see ( which side ) coming out on top so to speak.
(11-05-2020, 03:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-04-2020, 10:22 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-03-2020, 01:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]270towin polling averages, Nov.3, 2 AM EST
https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/
National: Biden +8

https://www.270towin.com/content/2020-pr...te-polling
Alaska Trump +5.6
Arizona Biden +2.2
Florida Biden +3.1
Georgia Biden +0.2
Iowa Trump +1.6
Kansas Trump +8.7
Maine CD2 Biden +1.2
Michigan Biden +5.5
Minnesota Biden +9.8
Missouri Trump +7.6
Montana Trump +5.4
Nevada Biden +5
New Hampshire Biden +11
North Carolina Biden +0.3
Ohio Trump +0.9
Pennsylvania Biden +3.7
South Carolina Trump +7
Texas Trump +1.3
Wisconsin Biden +9.2

95 million have voted.

Not much actually right in this list -- again. Will the pollsters admit they haven't a clue?

I suspect that President Trump and the GOP made some highly successful ads late in the campaign, including some that blindsided Democrats. He made ads denouncing Joe Biden as a supporter of Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez, and those ensured that he would win Florida. The GOP made a simple ad that ran something like this:


Quote:The election? Let's look at the Democrats. 

Taking away our tax cuts? That will cost us money that we can't afford to be without. 

Violence in the streets? Trump says he will back our police.

Trump tax cuts for the rich? My husband is looking for a job, and we can't afford that.

Donald Trump is a master of the visceral appeal, something powerful if intellectually sleazy in the extreme. It works. The idea is that no matter how you despise him, you need him to protect yourself. 

When it seemed that Trump was winning I contemplated suicide.
You still may end up killing yourself with Biden/Harris in office. The Democrats have been given they're last chance to prove themselves and if/when they fail America, it's all over for the Democrats. America will let go of the Democratic and watch as Rome burns so to speak.
(11-05-2020, 11:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2020, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It is said that many on both sides said that the other side is unacceptable and horrific if they win. It seems, if Biden wins, that the result was that the stalemate continues. The world burns, the oceans rise, droughts wipe out millions, world insecurity grows, inequality and poverty grows, health care reform is destroyed, the national debt balloons, gun massacres and police killings continue, etc., all because of two people in the senate, and because people in some red and purple states re-elected McConnell. Can this really be called such an historic election, then? It could have been, but the result of it all will be business as usual.

It's hard to see how this plays, other than badly, of course.  McConnell is already working hard to align his caucus against Biden or for Trump, the needs of the country be damned.  Of course, Biden is being his conciliatory self, promising cooperation with people who see that as weakness.  McConnell is already vowing to stop all his cabinet picks unless the GOP approves of them, and that would never be tolerated in reverse.

If I was Biden, and had the authority, the first attempt at this kind of thing would be met with the pledge to close Fort Campbell.  The second, Fort Knox.  If it has to be hardball, play your strongest pitcher.
So, what are the needs of the country right now? Does anyone on the Left know what the country wants or needs these days? Does it need more illegal immigrants or more Chinese manufactured goods or higher priced gasoline and electricity or higher taxes or more welfare programs or less police or less military or more affirmative action? I sure hope Biden and what's left of the Democrats are as Godly as they come across and the media makes them out to be for your sake
(11-09-2020, 01:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I see that you're still clinging to wishful/ hopeful rhetoric and the 3T way of  thinking. Guess what, the shoe is on the other foot and you shouldn't believe any of the Liberal love dove kumbuya BS that's being expressed by the Liberal media today. As I mentioned before, it's a race to the bottom and the Democrats are winning and neither Presidential candidate that you and every other Liberal minded fool  elected is strong enough to keep this country together.  Eric and I have been in agreement for several years, we just differ in who we see ( which side ) coming out on top so to speak.

I'd like for Biden to be given a chance as I was willing to give Trump a chance. I ran the better part of a year before starting to dump on him. I thought that was quite enough time.

The big two items so far have been systematic police racism and the resulting violence, and COVID. An obstructionist senate could assure that both problems remain unsolved. Is that what you want? Hatred and death?

McConnell starting with the election of a man with too much more skin pigmentation for his liking went into full obstruction mode. I has stayed that way through the last two terms. It could stay that way longer. I don't really know if he can do anything but obstruct at this point. I hope the Democrats get control of the senate. Otherwise, there is a good chance that we are stuck with Unravelling mode, argument and obstruction. I heard one rumor that he was going to block all cabinet appointments. There comes a time to put country ahead of party. If he does that at this point, America will have to suffer until the midterms. Not sure that the country would stand for it. Not sure that the Republican could survive.

I don't doubt that Trump was the bigger fool, the bigger threat. But, still.

I'm still wanting a crisis style solve the problem mindset. I would still see a preference for freedom over tyranny, that neither culture should try to use the federal government to impose it's will on the other.
(11-09-2020, 02:36 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 01:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I see that you're still clinging to wishful/ hopeful rhetoric and the 3T way of  thinking. Guess what, the shoe is on the other foot and you shouldn't believe any of the Liberal love dove kumbuya BS that's being expressed by the Liberal media today. As I mentioned before, it's a race to the bottom and the Democrats are winning and neither Presidential candidate that you and every other Liberal minded fool  elected is strong enough to keep this country together.  Eric and I have been in agreement for several years, we just differ in who we see ( which side ) coming out on top so to speak.

I'd like for Biden to be given a chance as I was willing to give Trump a chance.  I ran the better part of a year before starting to dump on him.  I thought that was quite enough time.

The big two items so far have been systematic police racism and the resulting violence, and COVID.  An obstructionist senate could assure that both problems remain unsolved.  Is that what you want?  Hatred and death?

McConnell starting with the election of a man with too much more skin pigmentation for his liking went into full obstruction mode.  I has stayed that way through the last two terms.  It could stay that way longer.  I don't really know if he can do anything but obstruct at this point.  I hope the Democrats get control of the senate.  Otherwise, there is a good chance that we are stuck with Unravelling mode, argument and obstruction.  I heard one rumor that he was going to block all cabinet appointments.  There comes a time to put country ahead of party.  If he does that at this point, America will have to suffer until the midterms.  Not sure that the country would stand for it.  Not sure that the Republican could survive.

I don't doubt that Trump was the bigger fool, the bigger threat.  But, still.

I'm still wanting a crisis style solve the problem mindset.  I would still see a preference for freedom over tyranny, that neither culture should try to use the federal government to impose it's will on the other.
I don't care about Biden or the Democrats either. I have a business to run and a kid to get through college and that's what I'll be focused on for the next four years.
(11-09-2020, 02:36 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 01:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I see that you're still clinging to wishful/ hopeful rhetoric and the 3T way of  thinking. Guess what, the shoe is on the other foot and you shouldn't believe any of the Liberal love dove kumbuya BS that's being expressed by the Liberal media today. As I mentioned before, it's a race to the bottom and the Democrats are winning and neither Presidential candidate that you and every other Liberal minded fool  elected is strong enough to keep this country together.  Eric and I have been in agreement for several years, we just differ in who we see ( which side ) coming out on top so to speak.

I'd like for Biden to be given a chance as I was willing to give Trump a chance.  I ran the better part of a year before starting to dump on him.  I thought that was quite enough time.

The big two items so far have been systematic police racism and the resulting violence, and COVID.  An obstructionist senate could assure that both problems remain unsolved.  Is that what you want?  Hatred and death?

McConnell starting with the election of a man with too much more skin pigmentation for his liking went into full obstruction mode.  I has stayed that way through the last two terms.  It could stay that way longer.  I don't really know if he can do anything but obstruct at this point.  I hope the Democrats get control of the senate.  Otherwise, there is a good chance that we are stuck with Unravelling mode, argument and obstruction.  I heard one rumor that he was going to block all cabinet appointments.  There comes a time to put country ahead of party.  If he does that at this point, America will have to suffer until the midterms.  Not sure that the country would stand for it.  Not sure that the Republican could survive.

I don't doubt that Trump was the bigger fool, the bigger threat.  But, still.

I'm still wanting a crisis style solve the problem mindset.  I would still see a preference for freedom over tyranny, that neither culture should try to use the federal government to impose it's will on the other.

Crisis topic A remains climate change, and it will be a key focus of Biden's agenda. He has made that clear. Biden and Democrats are hoping that Biden's time in the Senate and his friendship with McConnell will enable him to make negotiations with him. Whatever comes out of this negotiation will be inadequate. Even what normally comes from Democrats when they have the power is usually inadequate. But inadequate is much better than deliberately making the problems worse, which we had under Trump.

If we ever move from inadequate to actually solving problems, if will be necessary unfortunately for the blue side to "impose" it's culture on the red, meaning implement our policies over their opposition, because the red culture's entire being rests only upon opposing the necessary solutions. As I keep reminding you Bob, 4Ts are not kumbaya and let's all get along. If Biden can get a few things done by negotiation and calls for unity, well and good. But in order for a crisis style solve-the-problem mindset to happen, in our currently-polarized situation between one side that wants to solve problems and the other that wants to expand them, one side has to win, and then, as in all 4Ts, it can build consensus because it succeeds in resolving issues and moving the country forward. If the blue side can win by calling for unity, that's fine. But I doubt that the solutions offered in the next few years will be anything near adequate. Frustration will keep building as the 4T gets deeper and closer to the climax at mid-decade.

Once the blue side makes some progress, if it ever does, the ranks and power of the opposing culture will diminish as it always has, and some adherents of the reactionary culture will change their minds. It's tough to argue with success, especially among the younger people coming along. Resentments may well linger and problems resurface, as happened after the civil war, but that can't be helped-- as long as we have in the contiguous Dixie and Redneck lands a culture (Classic Xer's culture) that is dedicated to aristocracy and rooted in ancient rather than modern times.

It may not matter if this culture continues or not. If they are outvoted by a large enough margin and for a long enough time, success and progress will go forward. I don't know if it will happen, although I have predicted that it will. We don't have to eliminate the Red America culture or everyone who adheres to it. People are entitled to keep their beliefs. It only needs to be outvoted, and our solutions implemented. If that is not possible, then separation is an option. I note, however, that Classic Xer has said on some occasions that we are to be eliminated. So what they do or can do is up to them, and we will respond as needed.
(11-09-2020, 01:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2020, 11:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2020, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It is said that many on both sides said that the other side is unacceptable and horrific if they win. It seems, if Biden wins, that the result was that the stalemate continues. The world burns, the oceans rise, droughts wipe out millions, world insecurity grows, inequality and poverty grows, health care reform is destroyed, the national debt balloons, gun massacres and police killings continue, etc., all because of two people in the senate, and because people in some red and purple states re-elected McConnell. Can this really be called such an historic election, then? It could have been, but the result of it all will be business as usual.

It's hard to see how this plays, other than badly, of course.  McConnell is already working hard to align his caucus against Biden or for Trump, the needs of the country be damned.  Of course, Biden is being his conciliatory self, promising cooperation with people who see that as weakness.  McConnell is already vowing to stop all his cabinet picks unless the GOP approves of them, and that would never be tolerated in reverse.

If I was Biden, and had the authority, the first attempt at this kind of thing would be met with the pledge to close Fort Campbell.  The second, Fort Knox.  If it has to be hardball, play your strongest pitcher.
So, what are the needs of the country right now? Does anyone on the Left know what the country wants or needs these days? Does it need more illegal immigrants or more Chinese manufactured goods or higher priced gasoline and electricity or higher taxes or more welfare programs or less police or less military or more affirmative action? I sure hope Biden and what's left of the Democrats are as Godly as they come across and the media makes them out to be for your sake

Yeah, we do know what the country wants or needs Smile

Thanks for the opening to spell it out a little bit, again. It's good practice, I hope.

Illegal immigrants are OK. Our side would prefer a more sane approach, like the bipartisan bill that Marco Rubio co-sponsored but was scuttled by your Tea Party House a few years ago. Sure, we'd prefer an orderly and legal admissions policy for immigrants. But crossing the border illegally is not a felony and it's not such a big deal as you make out. Under Biden DACA will be restored and children brought here by their parents can become citizens. Those who are illegal, if the bill passes, will pay a fine and get educated and work and pay their taxes and then can become legal citizens or residents. I hope we won't have to tear down the statue of liberty as your side would do if it were honest about its intentions. Under trumpism the USA does not welcome the poor and huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

Our side is not against tariffs on China and never was. Maybe our president was, but that's too bad. Most Democrats support labor unlike most Republicans, and we want fair trade too. We just don't want to be awkward dufuses like Trump is in going about it.

Once our energy transition is ramped up, prices for gasoline will plummet because of the lower demand and you backward types can buy gas cheaply. Of course there will be fewer gas-running new cars on the market, so just keep your gas guzzler in good shape. Similarly, solar and wind is cheaper in the long run; it's just that your side doesn't know what "the long run" means and can't even see beyond your nose.

Higher taxes on the wealthy and more welfare programs? Yes, if we can get them, we do need those. They protect everybody and would move our country away from its current trajectory toward a banana republic ruled by a few rich tycoons for their own benefit. Less police? At least less police having to do the work that social and health care workers can do so much better than violent racists with guns in blue uniforms can do. And less waste on military we don't need like Trump wastes money on. Trump doesn't like war, he says, but building the military too much eventually means we go to war. It always has and always will.
(11-10-2020, 12:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Crisis topic A remains climate change, and it will be a key focus of Biden's agenda. He has made that clear. Biden and Democrats are hoping that Biden's time in the Senate and his friendship with McConnell will enable him to make negotiations with him. Whatever comes out of this negotiation will be inadequate. Even what normally comes from Democrats when they have the power is usually inadequate. But inadequate is much better than deliberately making the problems worse, which we had under Trump.

If we ever move from inadequate to actually solving problems, if will be necessary unfortunately for the blue side to "impose" it's culture on the red, because the red culture's entire being rests only upon opposing the necessary solutions. As I keep reminding you Bob, 4Ts are not kumbaya and let's all get along. If Biden can get a few things done by negotiation and calls for unity, well and good. But in order for a crisis style solve-the-problem mindset to happen, in our currently-polarized situation between one side that wants to solve problems and the other that wants to expand them, one side has to win, and then, as in all 4Ts, it can build consensus because it succeeds in resolving issues and moving the country forward. 

Once that is done, the ranks and power of the opposing culture diminishes, and some adherents of the reactionary culture will change their minds. It's tough to argue with success, especially among the younger people coming along. Resentments may well linger and problems resurface, as happened after the civil war, but that can't be helped-- as long as we have in the contiguous Dixie and Redneck lands a culture (Classic Xer's culture) that is dedicated to aristocracy and rooted in ancient rather than modern times.

I would differ on a few points.  If you were a patriot, a yankee, or an ally, a 4T is about kumbaya.  You bind together against the enemy and defeat him.  The question this time is whether you welcome the maybe enemy or make him a forever enemy.  I would make it his choice, not make it for him.  You are so much at the extreme that you cannot let go of the hate and unify as Biden is asking us to do.  You are insisting on the unravelling conflict perspective, refusing to adapt into the crisis mentality.  Love and peace, man.  Try to summon your inner hippie.

I am also doubtful that the environment will get the focus it deserves.  Sure, it is an element of the Democratic agenda.  We will get a few steps closer to enough in a few years.  Still, the economy will be such a wreck that I doubt we will do enough.  So far, COVID and racial violent policing have bubbled to the top of the crisis.  The desire to move to a high mood will overcome things when the bug and racism are attacked.

Will this help the millennials when the next generation of prophets goes off in the awakening?  Likely not.
(11-09-2020, 01:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-05-2020, 03:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-04-2020, 10:22 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-03-2020, 01:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]270towin polling averages, Nov.3, 2 AM EST
https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/
National: Biden +8

https://www.270towin.com/content/2020-pr...te-polling
Alaska Trump +5.6
Arizona Biden +2.2
Florida Biden +3.1
Georgia Biden +0.2
Iowa Trump +1.6
Kansas Trump +8.7
Maine CD2 Biden +1.2
Michigan Biden +5.5
Minnesota Biden +9.8
Missouri Trump +7.6
Montana Trump +5.4
Nevada Biden +5
New Hampshire Biden +11
North Carolina Biden +0.3
Ohio Trump +0.9
Pennsylvania Biden +3.7
South Carolina Trump +7
Texas Trump +1.3
Wisconsin Biden +9.2

95 million have voted.

Not much actually right in this list -- again. Will the pollsters admit they haven't a clue?

I suspect that President Trump and the GOP made some highly successful ads late in the campaign, including some that blindsided Democrats. He made ads denouncing Joe Biden as a supporter of Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez, and those ensured that he would win Florida. The GOP made a simple ad that ran something like this:


Quote:The election? Let's look at the Democrats. 

Taking away our tax cuts? That will cost us money that we can't afford to be without. 

Violence in the streets? Trump says he will back our police.

Trump tax cuts for the rich? My husband is looking for a job, and we can't afford that.

Donald Trump is a master of the visceral appeal, something powerful if intellectually sleazy in the extreme. It works. The idea is that no matter how you despise him, you need him to protect yourself. 

When it seemed that Trump was winning I contemplated suicide.
You still may end up killing yourself with Biden/Harris in office. The Democrats have been given they're last chance to prove themselves and if/when they fail America, it's all over for the Democrats. America will let go of the Democratic and watch as Rome burns so to speak.

Both parties have failed. Your Party fails at everything because its policies are wrong. And it fools enough people so it can block whatever the Democrats want to do, and cowers the Democrats into caving into your Republican Party. And the system favors you in doing that. So the country goes nowhere. But that's what you want.
(11-10-2020, 12:38 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2020, 12:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Crisis topic A remains climate change, and it will be a key focus of Biden's agenda. He has made that clear. Biden and Democrats are hoping that Biden's time in the Senate and his friendship with McConnell will enable him to make negotiations with him. Whatever comes out of this negotiation will be inadequate. Even what normally comes from Democrats when they have the power is usually inadequate. But inadequate is much better than deliberately making the problems worse, which we had under Trump.

If we ever move from inadequate to actually solving problems, if will be necessary unfortunately for the blue side to "impose" it's culture on the red, because the red culture's entire being rests only upon opposing the necessary solutions. As I keep reminding you Bob, 4Ts are not kumbaya and let's all get along. If Biden can get a few things done by negotiation and calls for unity, well and good. But in order for a crisis style solve-the-problem mindset to happen, in our currently-polarized situation between one side that wants to solve problems and the other that wants to expand them, one side has to win, and then, as in all 4Ts, it can build consensus because it succeeds in resolving issues and moving the country forward. 

Once that is done, the ranks and power of the opposing culture diminishes, and some adherents of the reactionary culture will change their minds. It's tough to argue with success, especially among the younger people coming along. Resentments may well linger and problems resurface, as happened after the civil war, but that can't be helped-- as long as we have in the contiguous Dixie and Redneck lands a culture (Classic Xer's culture) that is dedicated to aristocracy and rooted in ancient rather than modern times.

I would differ on a few points.  If you were a patriot, a yankee, or an ally, a 4T is about kumbaya.  You bind together against the enemy and defeat him.  The question this time is whether you welcome the maybe enemy or make him a forever enemy.  I would make it his choice, not make it for him.  You are so much at the extreme that you cannot let go of the hate and unify as Biden is asking us to do.  You are insisting on the unravelling conflict perspective, refusing to adapt into the crisis mentality.  Love and peace, man.  Try to summon your inner hippie.

I am also doubtful that the environment will get the focus it deserves.  Sure, it is an element of the Democratic agenda.  We will get a few steps closer to enough in a few years.  Still, the economy will be such a wreck that I doubt we will do enough.  So far, COVID and racial violent policing have bubbled to the top of the crisis.  The desire to move to a high mood will overcome things when the bug and racism are attacked.

Will this help the millennials when the next generation of prophets goes off in the awakening?  Likely not.

I don't know what to do about Red America, really. Whether I hate them or not makes no difference. They seem to be doubling down on their hate and rejection of progress, judging by the election returns. It is up to them if they want to wake up from their delusions. I can't wake them up. I respect them as human beings, but I don't respect their ignorance. Luckily it's not up to me how they are handled. But ultimately, I wish them well. Yet, I can't always feel too sorry when they are flooded out, because they voted to get flooded out.

The thing is, however disgraceful, stupid, self-obsessed or criminal we might say Trump is, or even other Republicans like McConnell, must be said about the 71 million people who voted for him too. After 4 years of what he said and did, they wanted him back. There can be no excuse for them.

"You bind together against the enemy and defeat him." That's right, but then you say the opposite. Can we do both at once? It didn't work against the redcoats and those who didn't want revolution. It didn't work against Dixie. It didn't work against the Nazis, OR against the oligarchs who remained vehement in their hatred of FDR-- and he welcomed their hatred. So, now we have an enemy within our own country once again, as we always do in a 4T. I don't know where we go from here, for sure. To a break-up, or to some success and demographic change that gradually moves us forward. What we have had is 40 years of stalemate, and the voters voted for more of it. It doesn't seem sustainable to me. We're headed for a breakdown, unless somehow destiny calls us forward.

It doesn't matter if you feel "doubtful that the environment will get the focus it deserves." It will demand attention, every year, year after year. Racism seems already on the back burner; dealing with it no longer commands majority support. Instead Red America is only interested in law and order. So what is on top will fluctuate as the years pass. Covid is first priority now, but it will go away in a year, while the climate crisis is here for the century.
a few revisions as more of the vote came in.
poll averages on 270towin vs. actual votes

National Biden +8 actual Biden +3.3

Alaska Trump +5.6 actual Trump +31, half the vote uncounted
Arizona Biden +2.2, actual Biden +0.5, 98% counted
Florida Biden +3.1 actual Trump +3.2
Georgia Biden +0.2 actual Biden +0.5, 99% counted
Iowa Trump +1.6 actual Trump +8.2
Kansas Trump +8.7 actual Trump +15.6
Maine CD2 Biden +1.2 actual Trump +7.6
Michigan Biden +5.5 actual Biden +2.4
Minnesota Biden +9.8 actual Biden +7.1
Missouri Trump +7.6 actual Trump +15.6
Montana Trump +5.4 actual Trump +15.2
Nevada Biden +5 actual Biden +2.7, 95% counted, many mail-in ballots from Democratic areas left to count
New Hampshire Biden +11 actual Biden +6.9
North Carolina Biden +0.3 actual Trump +1.4, 97.6% counted
Ohio Trump +0.9 actual Trump +8.2
Pennsylvania Biden +3.7 actual Biden +0.7, 99% counted
South Carolina Trump +7 actual Trump +12
Texas Trump +1.3 actual Trump +5.8
Wisconsin Biden +9.2 actual Biden +0.7
The Repubs have gained 5 seats in the House, and it looks like they might get more.