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(11-11-2020, 10:41 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 02:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It is strange that Nassau County NY should be listed as Republican. New York is only 80% counted, and its vote is well below what the polls said it should be. Probably a lot of mail-in votes are outstanding, and they are likely strongly Democratic and from NY and it suburbs. NY is counting those votes at a glacial speed, if at all. CA is not much faster; it is up to 92% today. But it's trend has been steady at 64%+ Biden. The uncounted votes here in CA are mostly drop-offs, so they may not be as lopsidedly Democratic. Mail-in voting started a month or so before election day and have been counted all along.

Long Island, essentially Nassau and Suffolk Counties, are or have been reliably Republican for decades.  LI is where the Republicans go to pout, after working in the City in cushy jobs.  The degree of cynicism isn't even lost on them.  They know they're being feckless.

I noticed that Biden's margin in New York State was almost 10% lower (so far) than Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in New York State in 2016. Not that it makes any practical significance, slow votes coming in from absentee voters throughout New York State (I can imagine Trump doing much better in such economically-nuked places as the Trails of Tears along I-86 and I-90). Figuring that late-counted votes could make the New York state margin (and the national margin) much larger than what we have so far, maybe we will end up with a national margin closer to perhaps Obama in 2008 than Obama in 2012. Votes are still being counted, and not only in New York.

Update : I checked the numbers for incomplete voting, and the two states least close to counting their votes are Alaska (75%) and New York State (80%). States less than 97% away from fully counting their votes are California (92%), Colorado (95%), Illinois (92%), Maryland (93%), New Jersey (93%), Ohio (96%), Louisiana (95%), South Dakota (94%), and Utah (95%). Except for perhaps Utah the outstanding votes are likely to raise Democratic margins or cut Republican margins nationwide. (South Dakota isn't going to make a difference, and the outstanding votes in Trump wins Louisiana and Ohio are likely to come from D-leaning voters (big cities, and Democrats have tended to vote heavily in early or absentee voting even in counties that all in all went Republican.

Biden's margin in the popular vote could easily look like a landslide number after all is said and done.
(11-11-2020, 11:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Biden's margin in the popular vote could easily look like a landslide number after all is said and done.

I agree that's possible, though some of that delayed vote is quite likely due to election day drop-offs by Trumpists. How much is TBD, but probably a lot less than the early voting total.
(11-11-2020, 11:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 10:41 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 02:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It is strange that Nassau County NY should be listed as Republican. New York is only 80% counted, and its vote is well below what the polls said it should be. Probably a lot of mail-in votes are outstanding, and they are likely strongly Democratic and from NY and it suburbs. NY is counting those votes at a glacial speed, if at all. CA is not much faster; it is up to 92% today. But it's trend has been steady at 64%+ Biden. The uncounted votes here in CA are mostly drop-offs, so they may not be as lopsidedly Democratic. Mail-in voting started a month or so before election day and have been counted all along.

Long Island, essentially Nassau and Suffolk Counties, are or have been reliably Republican for decades.  LI is where the Republicans go to pout, after working in the City in cushy jobs.  The degree of cynicism isn't even lost on them.  They know they're being feckless.

I noticed that Biden's margin in New York State was almost 10% lower (so far) than Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in New York State in 2016. Not that it makes any practical significance, slow votes coming in from absentee voters throughout New York State (I can imagine Trump doing much better in such economically-nuked places as the Trails of Tears along I-86 and I-90). Figuring that late-counted votes could make the New York state margin (and the national margin) much larger than what we have so far, maybe we will end up with a national margin closer to perhaps Obama in 2008 than Obama in 2012. Votes are still being counted, and not only in New York.

Update : I checked the numbers for incomplete voting, and the two states least close to counting their votes are Alaska (75%)  and New York State (80%). States less than 97% away from fully counting their votes are   California (92%), Colorado (95%), Illinois (92%), Maryland (93%), New Jersey (93%), Ohio (96%), Louisiana (95%), South Dakota (94%), and Utah (95%). Except for perhaps Utah the outstanding votes are likely to raise Democratic margins or cut Republican margins nationwide. (South Dakota isn't going to make a difference,  and the outstanding votes in Trump wins Louisiana and Ohio are likely to come from D-leaning voters (big cities, and Democrats have tended to vote heavily in early or absentee voting even in counties that all in all went Republican.

Biden's margin in the popular vote could easily look like a landslide number after all is said and done.
Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.
(11-10-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 01:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 11:54 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2020, 09:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]If Democrats are not prepared to play hardball from now on, they will be the losing party soon.

Ah, still in the argument and divide unravelling mindset, rather than the unify and solve crisis pattern.  Wink

I see that you're still clinging to wishful/ hopeful rhetoric and the 3T way of  thinking. Guess what, the shoe is on the other foot and you shouldn't believe any of the Liberal love dove kumbuya BS that's being expressed by the Liberal media today. As I mentioned before, it's a race to the bottom and the Democrats are winning and neither Presidential candidate that you and every other Liberal minded fool  elected is strong enough to keep this country together.  Eric and I have been in agreement for several years, we just differ in who we see ( which side ) coming out on top so to speak.

Despair is a losing proposition. Trump has taken America into a moral cesspool, and getting us out of it won't be easy. It is wisest to look for the best in human nature and foster it. It won't be easy, as Donald Trump has poisoned much of what passes for thought in many of us. Maybe we will be fortunate and, free of seeing his moronic tweets, we won't keep looking at sewage. Looking at a scrap-heap is depressing, but at least that is one way to get the metal in decrepit machines and vehicles back into commercial activity and utility. Trump's invective offers us no possible benefit.

I expect Joe Biden, now arguably the last connection that we have to a time of GI politics, to recall what was right about the GI world, one that fostered inclusion even without such as an objective, one that promoted rationality, one that saw service as an objective instead of something to evade, fairness as a test for judgment, and convention as the fallback. Note well that much that is GI-like in the Millennial generation will be welcome now; Trump is about as uncharacteristic of a Civic/Hero generation as he can be. Joe Biden may be nothing new, but 'nothing new' is far superior to novel perversion. 

Donald Trump is the antithesis of a Civic/Hero world. I look at the scientist and see a process that depends upon truth disembodied from a personality. Someone like Einstein could say that e=mc^2 all that he wanted, but he found mathematical proof behind it and others found experimental backing beneath it. A sound economy works for people other than the economic elites. Capitalism is here to stay, but the rationale of capitalism is that people other than capitalists can fare well. Maybe we need some economic reforms such as changes in the tax laws that give a break to small business as opposed to bureaucratized behemoths that themselves are doomed to their internal rot and lack of innovation. 

Trump will be gone from the scene, and such nefarious influence as he has on American life will also vanish. We will probably have a safe and effective vaccine for COVID-19 fairly soon -- but not soon enough that people who do reckless things contract it and die. We are already past 240,000 deaths in America from COVID-19; it could have been far less had the President followed the lead of political leaders of both Parties, local officials, medical science, and even Big Business. Trump has damned us into another, more complete lockdown in time for the Super Bowl.  What Trump did wrong, Biden will do right... and we will be wearing masks. 

I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.
Dude, the people on your side who were rioting and looting and destroying peoples property are the antithesis of the Civic/Hero world. If you're going to keep posting partisan bullshit without thinking, I'm here to teach you and show you and everyone else how stupid and how pathetic and deplorable people like you, people like those above you and the people above them really are these days. WE HAVE FOUR YEARS TO USE YOU AS EXAMPLES TO TEACH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TO STAY AWAY FROM FOR THEIR OWN GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP BEING POLITICALLY/FINANCIALLY DECIMATED. You don't have a pot to piss in which means you get to live out the last years of your life living like a stray dog or being rounded up executed by some Blue Fascists that you thought were just garden variety socialists. You are now in the position that I've been telling you that you would be in when the time comes.
(11-11-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.

They said much the same of the governor of New York, FDR.  The reason FDR got elected in as decisive an election as Biden was because their predecessors went with the old values and did not address the primary problem the culture was facing.  Not a good idea in a crisis.  Yet, Hoover thought he shouldn’t try to regulate the economy or find jobs, and Trump aligned against solving the bug and racist violent policing.  For that matter, Buchanan was all in favor of slavery.

I figure that the time makes the man, not the other way around.  In a crisis the old values fail and are dumped on, but that cannot happen until they and the new values have been debated and a bad president who tries to implement the old values after their time is passing, and shows their weakness and failure.  At that point the grey champion steps in and oversees the new values.  He later gets the credit associated, perhaps not fully deserved.

I would not have picked Biden either, but right now he is set up in a good place.
(11-11-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 11:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 10:41 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 02:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It is strange that Nassau County NY should be listed as Republican. New York is only 80% counted, and its vote is well below what the polls said it should be. Probably a lot of mail-in votes are outstanding, and they are likely strongly Democratic and from NY and it suburbs. NY is counting those votes at a glacial speed, if at all. CA is not much faster; it is up to 92% today. But it's trend has been steady at 64%+ Biden. The uncounted votes here in CA are mostly drop-offs, so they may not be as lopsidedly Democratic. Mail-in voting started a month or so before election day and have been counted all along.

Long Island, essentially Nassau and Suffolk Counties, are or have been reliably Republican for decades.  LI is where the Republicans go to pout, after working in the City in cushy jobs.  The degree of cynicism isn't even lost on them.  They know they're being feckless.

I noticed that Biden's margin in New York State was almost 10% lower (so far) than Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in New York State in 2016. Not that it makes any practical significance, slow votes coming in from absentee voters throughout New York State (I can imagine Trump doing much better in such economically-nuked places as the Trails of Tears along I-86 and I-90). Figuring that late-counted votes could make the New York state margin (and the national margin) much larger than what we have so far, maybe we will end up with a national margin closer to perhaps Obama in 2008 than Obama in 2012. Votes are still being counted, and not only in New York.

Update : I checked the numbers for incomplete voting, and the two states least close to counting their votes are Alaska (75%)  and New York State (80%). States less than 97% away from fully counting their votes are   California (92%), Colorado (95%), Illinois (92%), Maryland (93%), New Jersey (93%), Ohio (96%), Louisiana (95%), South Dakota (94%), and Utah (95%). Except for perhaps Utah the outstanding votes are likely to raise Democratic margins or cut Republican margins nationwide. (South Dakota isn't going to make a difference,  and the outstanding votes in Trump wins Louisiana and Ohio are likely to come from D-leaning voters (big cities, and Democrats have tended to vote heavily in early or absentee voting even in counties that all in all went Republican.

Biden's margin in the popular vote could easily look like a landslide number after all is said and done.

Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.

Trump keeps claiming that he won, and that the 'illusory' victory of Joe Biden is the result of fraud. No, it is the order in which the votes were counted.  

What is this "real America" stuff, anyway? As contrasted, I infer, from a not-so-real America? We have some concept of equality at law so that the poor kid from East St. Louis, Illinois has no obligation to abase himself before a rich kid from the Hamptons. Do you mean economic activity? Obviously Harris County, Texas (Greater Houston)  will get more government funds expended upon it than Loving County, Texas (population 134). More people implies a need for more complex government and more intrusive law enforcement. If your dog poops in a ditch next to a corn field, then nobody notices. If your dog poops on Fifth Avenue in midtown Manhattan, then you have trouble because you create trouble for others. 

I'm not going to tell you that Loving County, Texas (the second-least populous county in the US) is any less American than is Harris County, Texas. 

...About 51% of the American electorate had a choice between Donald Trump and Joe Biden and chose Joe Biden. Incumbent Presidents have usually won re-election unless the American people get tired of their agenda (Ford, the elder Bush) or something catastrophic happens (Hoover, Carter, and now Trump). Sure, Trump did better at the polls than Hoover or Carter; try explaining the whole American electorate at any one time.

If being "American" implies being white, conservative, and Christian... then you somehow miss a large part of America. You may consider me a boilerplate liberal, but there are plenty of issues on which I consider myself a conservative: educational content, law and order as an essential for human rights (non-violence is conservative, and I supported gay rights because anything less was an encouragement of pointless violence), and child welfare. If you are looking at where the economic activity is, then look no further than this image:

[Image: 20201109_BrookingsMetro_TwoEconomies-Chart1-final.png]"Red" America clearly needs "Blue" America, at least of you are going by county.  To be sure, the top four counties in pr4oductivity in the 'red' category are reasonably-pleasant places (Kern County, California is awful), but on the whole, if you want a well-paying job you obviously have a better chance to get it in one of the counties in blue than in red. "Blue" America has the bulk of the jobs that produce one of America's strongest objects of exchange: intellectual property. "Red" America seems to produce the raw materials and foodstuffs. If you are tempted to go to one of the 'red' counties because the cost of living is much lower, then know why the cost of living is so much lower. Sure, much of Greater Los Angeles is a dump, and you might pay as much as 70% of your after-tax income as rent for some tiny apartment.  On the other hand, if you don't have some professional certification, do you really want to be a farm laborer? Or do you want to work in a fast-food place next to Exit 106 on Interstate 60? That may be your opportunity.
(11-11-2020, 10:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Despair is a losing proposition. Trump has taken America into a moral cesspool, and getting us out of it won't be easy. It is wisest to look for the best in human nature and foster it. It won't be easy, as Donald Trump has poisoned much of what passes for thought in many of us. Maybe we will be fortunate and, free of seeing his moronic tweets, we won't keep looking at sewage. Looking at a scrap-heap is depressing, but at least that is one way to get the metal in decrepit machines and vehicles back into commercial activity and utility. Trump's invective offers us no possible benefit.

I expect Joe Biden, now arguably the last connection that we have to a time of GI politics, to recall what was right about the GI world, one that fostered inclusion even without such as an objective, one that promoted rationality, one that saw service as an objective instead of something to evade, fairness as a test for judgment, and convention as the fallback. Note well that much that is GI-like in the Millennial generation will be welcome now; Trump is about as uncharacteristic of a Civic/Hero generation as he can be. Joe Biden may be nothing new, but 'nothing new' is far superior to novel perversion. 

Donald Trump is the antithesis of a Civic/Hero world. I look at the scientist and see a process that depends upon truth disembodied from a personality. Someone like Einstein could say that e=mc^2 all that he wanted, but he found mathematical proof behind it and others found experimental backing beneath it. A sound economy works for people other than the economic elites. Capitalism is here to stay, but the rationale of capitalism is that people other than capitalists can fare well. Maybe we need some economic reforms such as changes in the tax laws that give a break to small business as opposed to bureaucratized behemoths that themselves are doomed to their internal rot and lack of innovation. 

Trump will be gone from the scene, and such nefarious influence as he has on American life will also vanish. We will probably have a safe and effective vaccine for COVID-19 fairly soon -- but not soon enough that people who do reckless things contract it and die. We are already past 240,000 deaths in America from COVID-19; it could have been far less had the President followed the lead of political leaders of both Parties, local officials, medical science, and even Big Business. Trump has damned us into another, more complete lockdown in time for the Super Bowl.  What Trump did wrong, Biden will do right... and we will be wearing masks. 

I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.

Dude, the people on your side who were rioting and looting and destroying peoples property are the antithesis of the Civic/Hero world. If you're going to keep posting partisan bullshit without thinking, I'm here to teach you and show you and everyone else how stupid and how pathetic and deplorable people like you, people like those above you and the people above them really are these days. WE HAVE FOUR YEARS TO USE YOU AS EXAMPLES TO TEACH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TO STAY AWAY FROM FOR THEIR OWN GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP BEING POLITICALLY/FINANCIALLY DECIMATED. You don't have a pot to piss in which means you get to live out the last years of your life living like a stray dog or being rounded up executed by some Blue Fascists that you thought were just garden variety socialists. You are now in the position that I've been telling you that you would be in when the time comes.

How do you know that the people 'rioting and looting' are on my side? I would betray such people to law enforcement and prosecution because security of person and property from overt crime is necessary for freedom and prosperity. I reported a drunk driver to local law enforcement in full awareness of what would happen to him were he arrested in the condition in which he was. I have suggested that people use their cameras, still or moving, to document riots that exploit lawful protests. 

I know enough to avoid people with hammer-and-sickle devices just as I know enough to avoid people who have swastikas or KKK emblems. I don't trust Antifa... and certainly not the Boogaloo Bois. 

We need to humanize capitalism so that we can avoid a proletarian revolution... you know, the sort that uses hammer-and-sickle devices.
(11-11-2020, 10:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.

They said much the same of the governor of New York, FDR.  The reason FDR got elected in as decisive an election as Biden was because their predecessors went with the old values and did not address the primary problem the culture was facing.  Not a good idea in a crisis.  Yet, Hoover thought he shouldn’t try to regulate the economy or find jobs, and Trump aligned against solving the bug and racist violent policing.  For that matter, Buchanan was all in favor of slavery.

I figure that the time makes the man, not the other way around.  In a crisis the old values fail and are dumped on, but that cannot happen until they and the new values have been debated and a bad president who tries to implement the old values after their time is passing, and shows their weakness and failure.  At that point the grey champion steps in and oversees the new values.  He later gets the credit associated, perhaps not fully deserved.

I would not have picked Biden either, but right now he is set up in a good place.
Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.
(11-12-2020, 12:56 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2020, 10:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Despair is a losing proposition. Trump has taken America into a moral cesspool, and getting us out of it won't be easy. It is wisest to look for the best in human nature and foster it. It won't be easy, as Donald Trump has poisoned much of what passes for thought in many of us. Maybe we will be fortunate and, free of seeing his moronic tweets, we won't keep looking at sewage. Looking at a scrap-heap is depressing, but at least that is one way to get the metal in decrepit machines and vehicles back into commercial activity and utility. Trump's invective offers us no possible benefit.

I expect Joe Biden, now arguably the last connection that we have to a time of GI politics, to recall what was right about the GI world, one that fostered inclusion even without such as an objective, one that promoted rationality, one that saw service as an objective instead of something to evade, fairness as a test for judgment, and convention as the fallback. Note well that much that is GI-like in the Millennial generation will be welcome now; Trump is about as uncharacteristic of a Civic/Hero generation as he can be. Joe Biden may be nothing new, but 'nothing new' is far superior to novel perversion. 

Donald Trump is the antithesis of a Civic/Hero world. I look at the scientist and see a process that depends upon truth disembodied from a personality. Someone like Einstein could say that e=mc^2 all that he wanted, but he found mathematical proof behind it and others found experimental backing beneath it. A sound economy works for people other than the economic elites. Capitalism is here to stay, but the rationale of capitalism is that people other than capitalists can fare well. Maybe we need some economic reforms such as changes in the tax laws that give a break to small business as opposed to bureaucratized behemoths that themselves are doomed to their internal rot and lack of innovation. 

Trump will be gone from the scene, and such nefarious influence as he has on American life will also vanish. We will probably have a safe and effective vaccine for COVID-19 fairly soon -- but not soon enough that people who do reckless things contract it and die. We are already past 240,000 deaths in America from COVID-19; it could have been far less had the President followed the lead of political leaders of both Parties, local officials, medical science, and even Big Business. Trump has damned us into another, more complete lockdown in time for the Super Bowl.  What Trump did wrong, Biden will do right... and we will be wearing masks. 

I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.

Dude, the people on your side who were rioting and looting and destroying peoples property are the antithesis of the Civic/Hero world. If you're going to keep posting partisan bullshit without thinking, I'm here to teach you and show you and everyone else how stupid and how pathetic and deplorable people like you, people like those above you and the people above them really are these days. WE HAVE FOUR YEARS TO USE YOU AS EXAMPLES TO TEACH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TO STAY AWAY FROM FOR THEIR OWN GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP BEING POLITICALLY/FINANCIALLY DECIMATED. You don't have a pot to piss in which means you get to live out the last years of your life living like a stray dog or being rounded up executed by some Blue Fascists that you thought were just garden variety socialists. You are now in the position that I've been telling you that you would be in when the time comes.

How do you know that the people 'rioting and looting' are on my side? I would betray such people to law enforcement and prosecution because security of person and property from overt crime is necessary for freedom and prosperity. I reported a drunk driver to local law enforcement in full awareness of what would happen to him were he arrested in the condition in which he was. I have suggested that people use their cameras, still or moving, to document riots that exploit lawful protests. 

I know enough to avoid people with hammer-and-sickle devices just as I know enough to avoid people who have swastikas or KKK emblems. I don't trust Antifa... and certainly not the Boogaloo Bois. 

We need to humanize capitalism so that we can avoid a proletarian revolution... you know, the sort that uses hammer-and-sickle devices.
It's pretty obvious that the Left was supporting them. I assume that you weren't paying attention to them as usual. Biden's replacement set up a fund to bailout the rioters. You should pay attention to them because they're going to be the cause of your demise. We're not going to start a war with them. We're going to let them start one with us which will justify our response. You are going to be amazed at how far we are going let them go before we start waging war and begin turning their worlds upside down. You see, the people on the American right have scruples and a clear understanding of right and wrong. History is going to repeat ( it's in the stars) and you and every other fool who voted for Biden are going to find themselves on the wrong side when the Democratic war with America starts.
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.
(11-12-2020, 04:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 12:56 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ][quote pid='59183' dateline='1605151673']
[quote pid='59137' dateline='1605023643']
I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.

Dude, the people on your side who were rioting and looting and destroying peoples property are the antithesis of the Civic/Hero world. If you're going to keep posting partisan bullshit without thinking, I'm here to teach you and show you and everyone else how stupid and how pathetic and deplorable people like you, people like those above you and the people above them really are these days. WE HAVE FOUR YEARS TO USE YOU AS EXAMPLES TO TEACH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TO STAY AWAY FROM FOR THEIR OWN GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP BEING POLITICALLY/FINANCIALLY DECIMATED. You don't have a pot to piss in which means you get to live out the last years of your life living like a stray dog or being rounded up executed by some Blue Fascists that you thought were just garden variety socialists. You are now in the position that I've been telling you that you would be in when the time comes.

How do you know that the people 'rioting and looting' are on my side? I would betray such people to law enforcement and prosecution because security of person and property from overt crime is necessary for freedom and prosperity. I reported a drunk driver to local law enforcement in full awareness of what would happen to him were he arrested in the condition in which he was. I have suggested that people use their cameras, still or moving, to document riots that exploit lawful protests. 

I know enough to avoid people with hammer-and-sickle devices just as I know enough to avoid people who have swastikas or KKK emblems. I don't trust Antifa... and certainly not the Boogaloo Bois. 

We need to humanize capitalism so that we can avoid a proletarian revolution... you know, the sort that uses hammer-and-sickle devices.
[/quote]

It's pretty obvious that the Left was supporting them. I assume that you weren't paying attention to them as usual. Biden's replacement set up a fund to bailout the rioters. You should pay attention to them  because they're going to be the cause of your demise. We're not going to start a war with them. We're going to let them start one with us which will justify our response. You are going to be amazed at how far we are going let them go before we start waging war and begin turning their worlds upside down. You see, the people on the American right have scruples and a clear understanding of right and wrong. History is going to repeat ( it's in the stars) and you and every other fool who voted for Biden are going to find themselves on the wrong side when the Democratic war with America starts.
[/quote]

I would far prefer that we bail out the small-business owners (including franchisees of Big Business) who absorb losses due to civil unrest. Count on prosecution of rioters. 

When people like you start denouncing Donald Trump as a non-solution who has made things far worse, then you will have more credibility. At this point the center-left and the center-right are as capable of a moral compass. The people on the Right that I least trust are (1) the racial and religious bigots, (2) right-wing shock-jocks, and (3) mirror-image Marxists who believe in the sort of inequity and oppression that make a proletarian revolution possible.
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

The above reflects that many of the domestic programs cut by Reagan and those that came after have insurance like functions.  If someone fails, they have a way out.  One example is health care.  If you get sick, you get healed and do not end up going bankrupt.

Now, most people do not get that sick.  For those who don’t, not providing health care at government expense is a win.  Taxes can be cut.  Most of the people come out ahead most of the time.  Those that do are schrod.

It becomes racist with the supposition that it is mostly minorities that get sick.  Racists want to stick it to the minorities, so they stick it to the poor.

But it is possible to want to gamble without being racist.  Either way, I see it as prudent that the government make the insurance official, while watching for people gaming the system, for those faking failures in order to deliberately live off the government.  In the unravelling, they just wrote a regulation that you could not turn people away from an emergency room.  You made the hospital responsible for the costs, and they passed it on to the community by making all health care more expensive.

But, yes.  A part of the problem is a belief that one should gamble.  Some things don’t have to be a gamble.  It isn’t in us to screw people who do like to gamble, who do want to cut costs.  To some extent, the government saves them anyway, and the costs inevitably do get shared.
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

Trump got some destruction done. Yes, he got things done. I hope Biden can get some things done, starting with reversing as much as he can of what Trump got "done." Or, we're "done" for.

I agree with Bob and even more with David.
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.
You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.
(11-12-2020, 03:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

Trump got some destruction done. Yes, he got things done. I hope Biden can get some things done, starting with reversing as much as he can of what Trump got "done." Or, we're "done" for.

I agree with Bob and even more with David.
You're done either way he or Harris goes during their stints as President. You do understand that you're  looking a split term Presidency right. Hey, at least you'll go out with back to back Democratic Presidents and the first woman as President. A female President with darker skin to boot.
(11-12-2020, 03:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

Trump got some destruction done. Yes, he got things done. I hope Biden can get some things done, starting with reversing as much as he can of what Trump got "done." Or, we're "done" for.

I agree with Bob and even more with David.
Biden should be able to get a handle on COVID at this point. The bulk of the hard work is already a done thanks to Trump. Sure, we'll have to tough it out for several months like we've been doing all along until there's enough vaccines for everyone. So, while you and most blues here have been mainly living in your bunkers like Biden or working remote from home. I and millions of others like me (men and women alike) have been out there working in public during the bulk of the pandemic like a true civic hero would be willing and able to do during a pandemic/crisis.
(11-12-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason  and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.

Do you know what self-reliance really is?

We were more self-reliant in the past, when technologies were cruder and business practices were different. I look at an old movie such as Charlie Chaplin's Modern Times (from 1936) and notice that the department store in which the Tramp character got a job as a night watchman sold fabric to be sewn into clothes to fit Wifey's husbands, kids, and herself. To be sure, the traditional department store seems to be a dying institution, but the practice of women buying fabric to sew into clothes was over before my time (and I am old. 64 is old enough to be something of a misfit in this world). Now let's look at the cars of the 1930's. The cars operated on machinery far easier to understand than what we now have. Someone with my below-average mechanical skills could have done some minor repairs on parts far easier to identify as culprits and replace or even mend than is so on their more recent analogues. (OK, cars have catalytic converters, safety devices, and of course air-conditioning units that make things safer, more ecologically-friendly, more comfortable --- and much more complex). I remember people making their own ice cream for an ice-cream "sociable" because there might not be an ice-cream parlor readily available.  If you want even more self-reliance, go back to the days of the horse and buggy, when electronic entertainments were scarce and not very good. If you wanted some music you heard it live or made your own. 

What killed self-reliance? 

1. Technology that allowed people to do things easily that were once difficult. Selecting a frequency on a radio set is far easier than playing a violin. 
2. Big Business, which made technologies easy to use, and available cheaply through mass production and mass marketing. 
3. People leaving rural life for the Big City (or later, the suburbs.
4. People insisting on more 'professional' entertainment than what they struggled to do. Have you ever heard a small child violin, usually not in tune?  5. The welfare state that Big Business makes necessary due to the economic dislocations that come with a mass economy and technological change. 

Ideology plays little role in the decline of self-reliance.
(11-12-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.
You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason  and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.

I tend to think that it was ideology that has played the major role. No doubt people's lifestyle in cities tends to condition people there to be less persuaded by the self-reliance ideology than people's lifestyle in rural areas. But the self-reliance ("neo-liberal, free-market") ideology has been clearly spelled out, and framed as opposition to government. Even though conservatives don't really oppose government when it comes to the things they want government to do for them, like put up various barriers to other countries, or supporting "law and order" and repressing drugs and outlawing abortion and supporting wars and the military and imposing their religion on us and stuff like that. But the temptation of the slogan is still very persuasive, because conservatives vote on their fears and their wrong values and don't bother too much with logic. So "less government", "government is the problem", means government should not be requiring a conservative to have his hard-earned, self-reliantly-earned money "stolen" from him to pay for those "lazy" (you know who) people who refuse to work and are dependent on that problematic government. And the scare-words "socialism" and "law and order" and "2nd amendment" are most effective in arousing the fears that stoke this self-reliance ideology.

And this ideology makes the believers in self-reliance and independence feel better and feel superior to those "dependent" liberals. This is Classic Xer's constant refrain. I think it is ideology, and it is also reinforced by lifestyles and greater access to culture, education and diversity in urban areas as opposed to the parochial and provincial atmosphere in rural areas, plus the sheer racial, ethnic and religious diversity in cities, and especially in many coastal and border areas that are closer to the outside world and more connected to it than the contiguous red-state heartland is. But there are also people who believe in either ideology who live in the opposing region too, although not too many in the most rural and most urban areas.

Before the sixties, and especially a century or so ago, heartland people were often genuine populists who voted for what they would now call "socialist" programs. The blacks were well-repressed and didn't alarm people with their liberation demands yet. We've always had fears of immigrants now and then, especially non-white ones. But sometimes, like in the "great" America Trump extols, it was pretty-well suppressed. There have been counter-cultures all along, but in the sixties maybe they took their liberation farther and spread it wider than before. Feminism and gay rights especially threatened the male ego. And the Cold War also had solidified anti-communist and anti-socialist opinions. So as the new stronger forces of liberation arose, somehow the neo-liberal ideology appealed to the red state and red county folks more now. And when the charming faux-macho actor appeared, they flocked to his great communication. And now they love the swindler TV star who satirically and openly proclaims his selfish disregard for others, because he gives unrepentant voice to their own similar feelings and prejudices.
(11-13-2020, 05:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason  and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.

I tend to think that it was ideology that has played the major role. No doubt people's lifestyle in cities tends to condition people there to be less persuaded by the self-reliance ideology than people's lifestyle in rural areas. But the self-reliance ("neo-liberal, free-market") ideology has been clearly spelled out, and framed as opposition to government. Even though conservatives don't really oppose government when it comes to the things they want government to do for them, like put up various barriers to other countries, or supporting "law and order" and repressing drugs and outlawing abortion and supporting wars and the military and imposing their religion on us and stuff like that. But the temptation of the slogan is still very persuasive, because conservatives vote on their fears and their wrong values and don't bother too much with logic. So "less government", "government is the problem", means government should not be requiring a conservative to have his hard-earned, self-reliantly-earned money "stolen" from him to pay for those "lazy" (you know who) people who refuse to work and are dependent on that problematic government. And the scare-words "socialism" and "law and order" and "2nd amendment" are most effective in arousing the fears that stoke this self-reliance ideology.

We are thinking on different lines, and you are just as right. My idea of self-reliance is to live with simpler technology and fewer large institutions -- and that includes Big Business. Our political system was made for a nation of small-scale craftsmen, shopkeepers, and yeoman farmers. Even the colleges and universities were small. Some much-renowned universities  (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT) are smaller than some Texas high schools. 

Can we go back to such times? The first truly big business of modern style is DuPont Corporation, established in 1802 (it since merged with the newer giant Dow Chemical). Doing away with large institutions would imply abandoning the economies of scale that make much inexpensive. One may see Wal*Mart as a cause of the vulgarity in American life, but it is able to supply us with many creatures comforts more cheaply than mom-and-pop merchants used to. The giant land-grant universities such as the University of Michigan, Michigan State, and Western Michigan University are the ones that many smart kids from prole families can afford to attend (so that the kids can get teaching credentials), and some of them have the cutting-edge hospitals or do high-level research. I am satisfied that the giant banks such as Bank of America, Chase, PNC, Wells Fargo, and USBank are good places to deal with only if one has large accounts, needs big loans, does extensive travel, or does complex dealings... but there are people like that. 

The most obvious difference is a far larger population. A society with 330 million people (that's about what I expect of the 2020 Census) requires far more complexity in organization and infrastructure than does a society with 106 million people (a century ago, following the last significant annexation of the United States, the American Virgin Islands). It is obvious that Los Angeles, California (population near 4 million) requires more complex institutions than does  Needles, California (population just under 5000 and in the middle of nowhere, and I would not advise anyone to live anywhere that lacks a genuine hospital and is not close to a four-year college). I don't want to be bitten by a diamondback rattler in any place, but certainly I would rather be somewhere near a genuine hospital than in Needles.  That's before I even mention the infernal summers and a culture out of the nearest Wal*Mart. 

This said, life is more complex than it used to be, and the high technology and consumer choice (some of it clandestine) can be a trap to people who have no idea of what they are doing and rely upon their impulses as judgment. 

The K-12 education that was adequate for full participation in American life in the 1950's is now grossly inadequate. 



Quote:And this ideology makes the believers in self-reliance and independence feel better and feel superior to those "dependent" liberals. This is Classic Xer's constant refrain. I think it is ideology, and it is also reinforced by lifestyles and greater access to culture, education and diversity in urban areas as opposed to the parochial and provincial atmosphere in rural areas, plus the sheer racial, ethnic and religious diversity in cities, and especially in many coastal and border areas that are closer to the outside world and more connected to it than the contiguous red-state heartland is. But there are also people who believe in either ideology who live in the opposing region too, although not too many in the most rural and most urban areas.

Unlike Classic X'ers, we liberals recognize the complexity of life as a corollary of giant cities, Big Business, high technology, and large institutions.  The genie is out of the bottle, and it is not entirely benign. We will need to adapt to the reality. Someone who offers excessive simplicity of thought is not making our lives simpler; that person is trying to fleece us. So it is with Donald Trump.

Quote:Before the sixties, and especially a century or so ago, heartland people were often genuine populists who voted for what they would now call "socialist" programs. The blacks were well-repressed and didn't alarm people with their liberation demands yet. We've always had fears of immigrants now and then, especially non-white ones. But sometimes, like in the "great" America Trump extols, it was pretty-well suppressed. There have been counter-cultures all along, but in the sixties maybe they took their liberation farther and spread it wider than before. Feminism and gay rights especially threatened the male ego. And the Cold War also had solidified anti-communist and anti-socialist opinions. So as the new stronger forces of liberation arose, somehow the neo-liberal ideology appealed to the red state and red county folks more now. And when the charming faux-macho actor appeared, they flocked to his great communication. And now they love the swindler TV star who satirically and openly proclaims his selfish disregard for others, because he gives unrepentant voice to their own similar feelings and prejudices.

My education tells me to be very cautious about peacock words such as "great". Make America Great Again? What does one mean by "great"? I'm old enough to know enough about the past to know that all that anyone could miss about it was lower real rents and the recovery of youth -- and opportunities that one missed out on. Who wouldn't like to go back in time and make a modest investment in Apple Corporation that makes one rich?  Maybe I would be better off if I had not brushed off that Jewish female my age because my family was full of antisemites. We had much in common.

I don't have to be black to see Jim Crow practice as an abomination. Maybe the Interstate highway system is bland and boring... but it certainly makes travel far easier. It's much safer than the Blood Alleys. I don't miss the epidemic of urban crime related to leaded gasoline. The Internet is an excellent source of reference saves me from having to buy "dead tree editions" of works in the public domain. As a straight male who has been gay-bashed I could come up with a better insult to gay-bashers than an F-bomb; I made clear that LGBT rights are necessary for law and order. Even culinary choices are richer due solely to a more diverse community. Thank you, Vietnamese-Americans! As for being able to get along in a world with a 'solid eighth-grade education' as did some of the elderly Lost that I remember? I would not want to live in their hardscrabble, merciless, boring world. Would you?

So life is more complex; it is also potentially richer as well.  Part of the complexity is sorting out the nonsense in life, and the expansion of the access to genuine information and culture implies more access to nonsense and schlock. OK, life is too complex for having nothing more than K-12 education.