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(12-29-2020, 09:23 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I still like the age boundaries.

The four are hunter gatherer, Agricultural, Industrial, Information.  The weapons are rocks, swords, gunpowder and nukes.  Power is provided by humans, animals, steam engines and renewable.   Information is stored by memory, writing, printing, computer networks.

Feel free to develop alternate names, but it is an established field of study.

And as you know, so is spiral dynamics, which includes these, but adds others; and my Planetary Dynamics, which adds a few more to those, and the civilization cycle as well as S&H cycles and other cycles, which add still more. History is full of interesting cycles and times of transition from old ways to new ways.
(12-29-2020, 04:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 09:23 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I still like the age boundaries.

The four are hunter gatherer, Agricultural, Industrial, Information.  The weapons are rocks, swords, gunpowder and nukes.  Power is provided by humans, animals, steam engines and renewable.   Information is stored by memory, writing, printing, computer networks.

Feel free to develop alternate names, but it is an established field of study.

And as you know, so is spiral dynamics, which includes these, but adds others; and my Planetary Dynamics, which adds a few more to those, and the civilization cycle as well as S&H cycles and other cycles, which add still more. History is full of interesting cycles and times of transition from old ways to new ways.
Eric, was just wondering if you would consider takin over as forum moderator. Site has become so infested with spam that if it was any kind of wildlife we couldn’t even walk.
We are looking beyond the framework of Election 2020, but perhaps we can see the election within a larger framework of a transition between ages and cycles.

We definitely see Trump as the final element in a Skowronek cycle. And naturally when I see an astrological correlation to a known cycle, I like to bring it out, and perhaps this fits more clearly and naturally than some might suspect. And usually, the astrologers saw the cycle first. But we all know there is a great conjunction going on, and that it happens every 20 years, and that it lines up with the 40-year Skowronek cycle, except there are are couple of variations to that; but the larger rhythm and the larger point is clear. Trump is the end in a cycle of presidential leadership; he represents the president who demonstrates the futility of continuing along the lines developed over the previous 40 years. It is clear in this case that this line is Reaganomics and neo-liberalism that took power in 1979-1981. So Election 2020 and Inauguration 2021 is the end of one cycle, and the start of another, leading away from neo-liberalism and back into progress.

We are also aware that Trump is part of the Crisis called the Fourth Turning, which many including myself and Mr. Howe date from the 2008 financial crisis and great recession and to last for 21 years. But in this case, 2020 is not the end of the cycle. The Fourth Turning has almost a decade left to run. The pandemic was the decisive event which defined the failure of Trump, who lost the electoral college by about 43,000 votes in 3 states, which is similar to how he won it by 77,744 votes in 3 states in 2016. But this narrow Biden victory, and probably the gridlock to follow to one degree or another with the neo-liberals and xenophobes still having much power, means struggles still lie ahead, and confrontations with the results of neo-liberal power still lie ahead and must be resolved. The modern saeculum and the 4 turnings of course correspond to the cycle of Uranus around the Sun every 84 years, which Strauss and Howe in T4T defined exactly as the archetypal length of their cycle without referring to Uranus, and which the great astrologer Dane Rudhyar defined for Uranus in exactly the same way as based on the average length of a human life.

The great conjunction in 2020 also marks a time when the Information/Cyber Age will be further developed, as industrialism continues to decline because of its assaults on Nature and human dignity and health. Astrologically, the shift in these conjunctions this year from materialist-centered earth zodiac signs (Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn) since 1802 and from 1842 through 1961, into mental and communication-centered air signs (Gemini, Libra, Aquarius), with the preview of this in 1981, emphasizes the point.

In the larger cycle of civilization, the current assault and deadly infringement on Nature resulted in the long term from the break from the Middle Ages into the Renaissance. The glory of God as the aim of civilization was shifted toward the ambitions of men. Perspective changed from gazing up into the heights, to exploring and conquering across the horizons. Humans were gradually liberated from subservience to faith over reason and science throughout the Renaissance and Enlightenment era, whose results speak well for the Renaissance humanist paradigm in many ways. To some extent, this liberation continues to be a foundation for our current age. But there has also been a break, since the turn of the 20th century. Ever since those times, when a new 493-year planetary cycle of Neptune-PLuto began, artists, scientists, philosophers and politicians have broken through the Renaissance worldview of the Earth as a horizon to conquer with peoples to subdue. Historians date our current era from the World Wars, which brought European dominance and imperialism to an end. The cycle of civilization proclaimed the break from the Middle Ages into the Renaissance, and it proclaimed the break from the Renaissance into the new global civilization dawning today.

In the sixties and seventies, both the dawn of the information age and the failure of American exceptionalism and industrial failures and the birth of new counter-cultures ended the "orange" industrial age and opened the "green" one of respect for diversity and green-peace. This is a new Revolution that supercedes the industrial and political Revolution of the late 18th century-- which again the astrological cycle confirms as well, this time with Uranus-Pluto conjunctions and oppositions. It also pushed further the end of the Renaissance paradigm.

But why should I mention the planetary and astrological cycles? Aren't the others sufficient? That's a long story, and I refer you to my posts on the thread that mentions astrology here. But suffice to say, I am not claiming that planets through some physical mechanical force cause humans to have certain characters and behaviors. Certainly, the cycles of the Sun, Moon and Earth affect us in measurable ways, and this is part of astrology too. But what astrology also says is that we human beings are not separate objects, but are connected and entangled with the cosmos around us. The planets have a certain kind of identity with which we resonate, and which are parts of us as holographic wholes. As above, so below. We have created these planetary archetypes through the 4 instrumental ages and through spiral and planetary-dynamic social evolution and discovery, as fully as the planets have done it for us. It is one tidal progression, and one process. If astrology works to an extent, which I confirmed for myself through experimental means, then it confirms the new paradigm that we need today, and which must dawn if we are to save ourselves from the pandemic that brought down Trump, as well as from the exploitation of Nature and human beings as objects which Trump represented, instead of being an integral part of divine spirituality within and beyond Nature, which is our true reality. We can debate this on the other thread. But clearly, the Renaissance and Enlightenment paradigm is not enough to carry us forward; nor is the industrial one which is its product. The new philosophy is needed. And astrology is an integral part of it; and so, for that matter, are all the other cyclic rather than merely linear views of the human process.
(12-29-2020, 05:25 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 04:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 09:23 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I still like the age boundaries.

The four are hunter gatherer, Agricultural, Industrial, Information.  The weapons are rocks, swords, gunpowder and nukes.  Power is provided by humans, animals, steam engines and renewable.   Information is stored by memory, writing, printing, computer networks.

Feel free to develop alternate names, but it is an established field of study.

And as you know, so is spiral dynamics, which includes these, but adds others; and my Planetary Dynamics, which adds a few more to those, and the civilization cycle as well as S&H cycles and other cycles, which add still more. History is full of interesting cycles and times of transition from old ways to new ways.
Eric, was just wondering if you would consider takin over as forum moderator. Site has become so infested with spam that if it was any kind of wildlife we couldn’t even walk.

True, I would; but unfortunately the originator and moderator have gone incommunicado. That happens in human relations. So this forum is like a ghost ship. So I have created the new facebook forum. https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524
(12-20-2020, 01:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Quite true. The right wing has a lot in common everywhere, and especially between the USA and Israel.

To me it reminds me of how my boomer cohorts were in childhood. Most were bullies to some extent, or just overly macho guys. I preferred the company of girl playmates for a while at school. They denounced me for this too.

The game is, feel good about yourself and gain admiration by picking on others. Pick on them, oppress them, keep them down. That stokes my own sense of identity.
Funny. I'm the most picked on poster here and you're whining about being picked on, oppressed and kept down so to speak.
(12-20-2020, 02:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-20-2020, 08:21 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]This is a good place to add this.  An Israeli academic from the Mizrahi community has taken-on the task of explaining the entrenched beliefs of that group to the rest of Israel, and why it applies more broadly to other nativist RW movements, like Trumpism.  The language is nearly identical. 

An interesting article, but it leaves out the basic difference between the old world and the new.  The old world mentality will build gas chambers, ship undesirable people off to Siberia, massacre the Armenians, and try to drive Israel into the sea.  We are more rational, enlightened, and benevolent, and only kill or lynch our minorities or renege on treaties one at a time.

The natives of the Middle East are much more into tribal thinking.  The members of other tribes are treated as subhuman.  The ideals of the Enlightenment and WEIRD are rarer, more easily overwhelmed.  Israel was so ready to increase their Jewish population that they neglected to bring in a more liberal immigrant.

The difference is that in the US, WEIRD can beat the tribal in the ballot box.  The difference is that the roundhead culture can overwhelm the cavaliers.

Now most people will see it in other terms.  They understand that the red culture is elitist, sexist and racist, that they will hurt the poor in order that their group will be ‘superior’.  I doubt many see it in terms of each crisis removing the greatest remnant of Agricultural Age thinking.

But the difference and the basic forces involved are being tiptoed around by Professor Mizrachi.
You'd have more credibility if you didn't come across as being so tribal.
(12-29-2020, 05:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 05:25 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 04:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 09:23 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I still like the age boundaries.

The four are hunter gatherer, Agricultural, Industrial, Information.  The weapons are rocks, swords, gunpowder and nukes.  Power is provided by humans, animals, steam engines and renewable.   Information is stored by memory, writing, printing, computer networks.

Feel free to develop alternate names, but it is an established field of study.

And as you know, so is spiral dynamics, which includes these, but adds others; and my Planetary Dynamics, which adds a few more to those, and the civilization cycle as well as S&H cycles and other cycles, which add still more. History is full of interesting cycles and times of transition from old ways to new ways.
Eric, was just wondering if you would consider takin over as forum moderator. Site has become so infested with spam that if it was any kind of wildlife we couldn’t even walk.

True, I would; but unfortunately the originator and moderator have gone incommunicado. That happens in human relations. So this forum is like a ghost ship. So I have created the new facebook forum. https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524
I guess that I'll be jumping ship at this point.
(12-29-2020, 08:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I guess that I'll be jumping ship at this point.

You might also consider Xenakis's forum here.  Erics Facebook site is attracting mostly blue people, while Xenakis's forum has mostly red posters.  Most have a more serious tone, though.  I don't know if you will fit in.  Then again, I sure don't.  Smile
(12-29-2020, 05:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 05:25 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]Eric, was just wondering if you would consider takin over as forum moderator. Site has become so infested with spam that if it was any kind of wildlife we couldn’t even walk.

True, I would; but unfortunately the originator and moderator have gone incommunicado. That happens in human relations. So this forum is like a ghost ship. So I have created the new facebook forum. https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524

It's sad that the last refuge may be inside the belly of the beast.  Facebook isn't evil; it's too self absorbed for that.  But it is toxic, and a place I avoid like the plague.  I never joined the hidden group, and I'll likely pass on this one too, though being open beats being closed by a mile.
(12-30-2020, 06:21 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]It's sad that the last refuge may be inside the belly of the beast.  Facebook isn't evil; it's too self absorbed for that.  But it is toxic, and a place I avoid like the plague.  I never joined the hidden group, and I'll likely pass on this one too, though being open beats being closed by a mile.

I find myself posting more on the Generational Dynamics forum than Eric's Facebook site.  The blue people on Facebook just agree with me too much.  Being the token blue in a red world is more interesting.  The latest episode is that someone who believed global warming a hoax suggested I obviously knew nothing about climate history.  I listed off eight or so factors effecting climate.  Thus far, no response.

Someone could just open another forum on MyBB and have several moderators to keep a forum and mixed red / blue site alive.  I have not felt the urge. yet.
(12-29-2020, 08:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 05:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]True, I would; but unfortunately the originator and moderator have gone incommunicado. That happens in human relations. So this forum is like a ghost ship. So I have created the new facebook forum. https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524

I guess that I'll be jumping ship at this point.

There isn't much ship left, so leaving is almost a default effort.
(12-30-2020, 12:04 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 08:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I guess that I'll be jumping ship at this point.

You might also consider Xenakis's forum here.  Erics Facebook site is attracting mostly blue people, while Xenakis's forum has mostly red posters.  Most have a more serious tone, though.  I don't know if you will fit in.  Then again, I sure don't.  Smile

Wherein comes the rub, as the Bard noted.  Going tribal is the opposite of having an engaging conversation.  I think I'll just drop-off for awhile, and see if anything else emerges.  It would be nice to have the members' email addresses, but they're hidden by design. The next iteration will be afresh startup ... even on Facebook.
(12-29-2020, 08:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-20-2020, 02:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-20-2020, 08:21 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]This is a good place to add this.  An Israeli academic from the Mizrahi community has taken-on the task of explaining the entrenched beliefs of that group to the rest of Israel, and why it applies more broadly to other nativist RW movements, like Trumpism.  The language is nearly identical. 

An interesting article, but it leaves out the basic difference between the old world and the new.  The old world mentality will build gas chambers, ship undesirable people off to Siberia, massacre the Armenians, and try to drive Israel into the sea.  We are more rational, enlightened, and benevolent, and only kill or lynch our minorities or renege on treaties one at a time.

The natives of the Middle East are much more into tribal thinking.  The members of other tribes are treated as subhuman.  The ideals of the Enlightenment and WEIRD are rarer, more easily overwhelmed.  Israel was so ready to increase their Jewish population that they neglected to bring in a more liberal immigrant.

The difference is that in the US, WEIRD can beat the tribal in the ballot box.  The difference is that the roundhead culture can overwhelm the cavaliers.

Now most people will see it in other terms.  They understand that the red culture is elitist, sexist and racist, that they will hurt the poor in order that their group will be ‘superior’.  I doubt many see it in terms of each crisis removing the greatest remnant of Agricultural Age thinking.

But the difference and the basic forces involved are being tiptoed around by Professor Mizrachi.
You'd have more credibility if you didn't come across as being so tribal.

pot calls kettle black
(12-29-2020, 07:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-20-2020, 01:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Quite true. The right wing has a lot in common everywhere, and especially between the USA and Israel.

To me it reminds me of how my boomer cohorts were in childhood. Most were bullies to some extent, or just overly macho guys. I preferred the company of girl playmates for a while at school. They denounced me for this too.

The game is, feel good about yourself and gain admiration by picking on others. Pick on them, oppress them, keep them down. That stokes my own sense of identity.
Funny. I'm the most picked on poster here and you're whining about being picked on, oppressed and kept down so to speak.

But it's not personal; it's your stubborn adherence to bullshit.
(12-30-2020, 11:29 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 07:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Funny. I'm the most picked on poster here and you're whining about being picked on, oppressed and kept down so to speak.

But it's not personal; it's your stubborn adherence to bullshit.

One person's bullshit is another's fertilizer.  I don't agree with C-Xer either, but he has a full right to be heard.  And it's not like were not all strongly opinionated.
(12-29-2020, 07:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-20-2020, 01:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Quite true. The right wing has a lot in common everywhere, and especially between the USA and Israel.

To me it reminds me of how my boomer cohorts were in childhood. Most were bullies to some extent, or just overly macho guys. I preferred the company of girl playmates for a while at school. They denounced me for this too.

The game is, feel good about yourself and gain admiration by picking on others. Pick on them, oppress them, keep them down. That stokes my own sense of identity.
Funny. I'm the most picked on poster here and you're whining about being picked on, oppressed and kept down so to speak.

Maybe if you weren't so predictably, obnoxiously, and often hilariously wrong!
(12-30-2020, 02:47 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-30-2020, 11:29 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-29-2020, 07:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Funny. I'm the most picked on poster here and you're whining about being picked on, oppressed and kept down so to speak.

But it's not personal; it's your stubborn adherence to bullshit.

One person's bullshit is another's fertilizer.  I don't agree with C-Xer either, but he has a full right to be heard.  And it's not like were not all strongly opinionated.

Yes, I call it as I see it.

Quote:Wherein comes the rub, as the Bard noted. Going tribal is the opposite of having an engaging conversation.

That's the trouble with our debates with Classic.
Donald Trump is trying to get the Republican-majority Wisconsin state legislature to nullify the popular vote of the state. Such has never happened before.

....................

One US Senator, Josh Hawley (Reckless, Missouri) says that he will contest the election.

Some US Representatives have signed on to challenge the electoral result. Likely disgraces:

Rep. Brian Babin (Texas)

Rep. Andy Biggs (Ariz.)

Rep.-elect Lauren Boebert (Colo.)

Rep. Mo Brooks (Ala.)

Rep. Ted Budd (N.C.)

Rep.-elect Jerry Carl (Ala.)

Rep.-elect Madison Cawthorn (N.C.)

Rep.-elect Andrew Clyde (Ga.)

Rep. Jeff Duncan (S.C.)

Rep. Matt Gaetz (Fla.)

Rep. Louie Gohmert (Texas)

Rep.-elect Bob Good (Va.)

Rep. Lance Gooden (Texas)

Rep. Paul Gosar (Ariz.)


Rep. Mark Green (Tenn.)

Rep.-elect Yvette Herrell (N.M.)

Rep. Jody Hice (Ga.)

Rep.-elect Ronny Jackson (Texas)

Rep.-elect Barry Moore (Ala.)

Rep. Ralph Norman (S.C.)

Rep.-elect Burgess Owens (Utah)

Rep. Scott Perry (Pa.)

Rep.-elect Marjorie Taylor Greene (Ga.)

Rep. Jefferson Van Drew (N.J.)
(12-31-2020, 01:02 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Donald Trump is trying to get the Republican-majority Wisconsin state legislature to nullify the popular vote of the state. Such has never happened before.

....................

One US Senator, Josh Hawley (Reckless, Missouri) says that he will contest the election.  

Some US Representatives have signed on to challenge the electoral result. Likely disgraces:

Rep. Brian Babin (Texas)

Rep. Andy Biggs (Ariz.)

Rep.-elect Lauren Boebert (Colo.)

Rep. Mo Brooks (Ala.)

Rep. Ted Budd (N.C.)

Rep.-elect Jerry Carl (Ala.)

Rep.-elect Madison Cawthorn (N.C.)

Rep.-elect Andrew Clyde (Ga.)

Rep. Jeff Duncan (S.C.)

Rep. Matt Gaetz (Fla.)

Rep. Louie Gohmert (Texas)

Rep.-elect Bob Good (Va.)

Rep. Lance Gooden (Texas)

Rep. Paul Gosar (Ariz.)


Rep. Mark Green (Tenn.)

Rep.-elect Yvette Herrell (N.M.)

Rep. Jody Hice (Ga.)

Rep.-elect Ronny Jackson (Texas)

Rep.-elect Barry Moore (Ala.)

Rep. Ralph Norman (S.C.)

Rep.-elect Burgess Owens (Utah)

Rep. Scott Perry (Pa.)

Rep.-elect Marjorie Taylor Greene (Ga.)

Rep. Jefferson Van Drew (N.J.)

My own scumbag (Bob Good- VA 5) is on the list, and it's no surprise to me.  I assume the others are similar in nature.  After their little piece of theater, will any be held to account in any way?
(12-30-2020, 07:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-30-2020, 06:21 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]It's sad that the last refuge may be inside the belly of the beast.  Facebook isn't evil; it's too self absorbed for that.  But it is toxic, and a place I avoid like the plague.  I never joined the hidden group, and I'll likely pass on this one too, though being open beats being closed by a mile.

I find myself posting more on the Generational Dynamics forum than Eric's Facebook site.  The blue people on Facebook just agree with me too much.  Being the token blue in a red world is more interesting.  The latest episode is that someone who believed global warming a hoax suggested I obviously knew nothing about climate history.  I listed off eight or so factors effecting climate.  Thus far, no response.

Someone could just open another forum on MyBB and have several moderators to keep a forum and mixed red / blue site alive.  I have not felt the urge. yet.

It's hard to keep in touch with the reds that were here. Not many credible reds post here too often. They can be invited if we remember who they are, know their screen names here, and look them up.

Obviously, not too many people want to be drawn into the endless debates with Classic. They go nowhere, and it's mostly just 4 of us and him, and he never budges. Probably no-one read it anymore. But other reds have been here who are less pointless to discuss with, like Warren Dew.

On the FB forum I just started, a red one was the first to sign up. Mostly blue ones after that. But it's open and new people are coming in all the time, who may not be so easy to categorize.

This MyBB forum has so many difficult technical conditions in it, and I would probably not know how to correct them.