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(04-30-2020, 11:58 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020, 05:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Most nations and US states have shut down non-essential businesses and issued shelter-in-place orders.

At least you understand that those two things are different things, unlike Bob.  You are, however, incorrect about the fact.  South Korea had no blanket shut downs of businesses before their outbreak had already subsided.  Masks and perhaps better attention to hygiene are the only obvious candidates for why Pacific Rim nations did better, though South Korea also benefited from an annual school shutdown that happened at a good time.

I have surgical style masks that I ordered a month ago.  I have another pack of 50 on order for a month from now, as well as a few KN-95 masks.  These were all through Amazon.

If you don't want to sew for yourself, you can get cloth masks on Etsy with much shorter shipping times.

Are you serious? South Korea got on the job starting day one, and kept the problem from getting started in the first place. That's no longer an option for us. If we had been testing, contact tracing and isolating back when the Donald was saying things would take care of themselves, we might have been able to do it here too.
(04-30-2020, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 11:58 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020, 05:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Most nations and US states have shut down non-essential businesses and issued shelter-in-place orders.

At least you understand that those two things are different things, unlike Bob.  You are, however, incorrect about the fact.  South Korea had no blanket shut downs of businesses before their outbreak had already subsided.  Masks and perhaps better attention to hygiene are the only obvious candidates for why Pacific Rim nations did better, though South Korea also benefited from an annual school shutdown that happened at a good time.

I have surgical style masks that I ordered a month ago.  I have another pack of 50 on order for a month from now, as well as a few KN-95 masks.  These were all through Amazon.

If you don't want to sew for yourself, you can get cloth masks on Etsy with much shorter shipping times.

Are you serious? South Korea got on the job starting day one, and kept the problem from getting started in the first place. That's no longer an option for us. If we had been testing, contact tracing and isolating back when the Donald was saying things would take care of themselves, we might have been able to do it here too.

Good luck getting him to acknowledge facts.
(04-30-2020, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Are you serious? South Korea got on the job starting day one, and kept the problem from getting started in the first place. That's no longer an option for us. If we had been testing, contact tracing and isolating back when the Donald was saying things would take care of themselves, we might have been able to do it here too.

That's not what the facts show.  In fact, South Korea blew it at the beginning by failing to restrict travel from China until too late, which is why they had to deal with an epidemic that Japan and Taiwan, who restricted travel very quickly, never had to deal with.  The US did better than South Korea during that period.

South Korea did ramp up their testing and such, but by the time that was ramped up, cases were already falling steeply due to earlier voluntary measures and the lucky school closure.  The only reason this wasn't obvious at the time was because it takes a couple weeks for changes in new cases to show up in testing, and there was a lot of panic and noise during that two weeks.
(04-30-2020, 12:34 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Are you serious? South Korea got on the job starting day one, and kept the problem from getting started in the first place. That's no longer an option for us. If we had been testing, contact tracing and isolating back when the Donald was saying things would take care of themselves, we might have been able to do it here too.

That's not what the facts show.  In fact, South Korea blew it at the beginning by failing to restrict travel from China until too late, which is why they had to deal with an epidemic that Japan and Taiwan, who restricted travel very quickly, never had to deal with.  The US did better than South Korea during that period.

South Korea did ramp up their testing and such, but by the time that was ramped up, cases were already falling steeply due to earlier voluntary measures and the lucky school closure.  The only reason this wasn't obvious at the time was because it takes a couple weeks for changes in new cases to show up in testing, and there was a lot of panic and noise during that two weeks.

Here's a pretty good synopsis of what South Korea did and when.
(04-30-2020, 01:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020, 10:21 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]If she had behaved as Trump did toward the Coronavirus she would deserve the same opprobrium. I doubt that she would have. As it is, America got hit later -- but much harder. Americans have chosen to take an economic blow and forgo many activities that they cherish so that they not get COVID-19. So life goes when most people see themselves in a shared danger. 

Further need I say nothing more.

I think you would be busy working to defend her and making excuses for her and blaming me for her shortcomings myself. So, what do you think of Andrew Cuomo forcing a bunch of densely populated old folks homes to keep their COVID19 folks instead of transferring them to hospitals or a military ship and a make shift hospital?

I am more of a realist than you think. I would expect someone to challenge her failed Presidency with an effective Republican campaign. I would have the concern that the Republicans would be in line to get super-majorities in the House and Senate with which they could reshape America into the Christian and Corporate State. Elections have consequences, and administrative failure also has consequences -- one of which is landslide defeats.

So what is a "Christian and Corporate State" like? It is the sort in which workers toil to exhaustion for bare survival, government represents wealth and administrative power within monopolistic corporations, in which workers have no choice except to put up with brutal management -- better the sweatshop than the concentration camp where one speeds up effort on substandard rations so that one can go back to the sweatshop. If you wonder what the priorities are: one will be spreading the alleged bounties of American fascism into places where such is unwelcome. 

In return for suffering for rapacious plutocrats, despotic managers, landlords and loan-sharks, and the complete absence of any semblance of a welfare state people would get the same promises that plantation owners offered their slaves: pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die, but eternal damnation for any shirking, rebellion, or flight. Even Nazi Germany, Hell-hole that it was, always had the ready threat of something worse than the nastiness that everyone knew well... until it was gone.  

I would make it simple enough for myself. Valium and vodka.  

But that digression was pointless. I want to celebrate the demise of the monstrously-cruel, incompetent, and corrupt Presidency that we now have. For that alone I have cause to follow stay-at-home orders.   

Quote:I'm not that concerned about the COVID19 threat myself. I'm more concerned about the economic fallout and the heavy financial toll that it's already taken on the State of Minnesota myself at this point. I mean, the state is only 4-5 billion in the hole and only about a month behind its neighboring red states in economic recovery at this point. For all I know, I may have already had COVID19 and recovered naturally. As I've mentioned before, the perceived danger isn't as mutually shared as liberals would think or hope at this point.

Just do not get the disease. If you die of it, then economic consequences will not matter. Recoveries are slow, and I see a ratio of about 30 recoveries to deaths. A 3% chance of death as opposed to recovery? Drunk driving looks safer, and I consider that too much a risk and an unconscionable risk to take.  

So far we have about a 3-1 ratio of recoveries to deaths. People are not recovering quickly. Long hospital stays are themselves extremely costly, especially if they involve people on public assistance. I am on public assistance for medical treatments, so I consider it my responsibility to not contract this horrible disease.  Maybe people who have severe complications will be sent off to nursing homes to replace as patients those who died of the epidemic, thus keeping those places alive and profitable. People have been sick from COVID-19 for over a month. 

COVID-19 will have costs analogous to a nasty war, and it will bloat the budget deficit. Maybe some of us get the time in which to do something that makes our lives better after the Plague of 2020 than before. Maybe we will find new interests worth sharing after this monstrous plague is over. This is a good time for expanding cultural experiences or taking on-line courses. But there is a catch: one must survive.  So it is with all Crisis eras. 

COVID-19 is more a natural disaster than anything else, but the response of our President has been execrable.
(04-30-2020, 11:50 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020, 10:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The USA now has more total cases than the next 5 bonified European nations. It has 5 to 20 times more new cases today. So much for Warren's claim that Trumpamerica is doing better than the EU and Russia.

Those 5 European countries have about the same population as the 50 US states.  Yet, the US has only about half as many deaths.

The fact that the US has more cases just shows how much better our testing program is than the average in Europe.

If that reflects on Trump, it reflects very positively.

The USA now is catching up to have as many or more deaths as the EU. It still has 2400 deaths a day, as opposed to just 100-300 a day in the large EU countries. Given Trump's refusal to act, the USA will have many more deaths than those 4 EU countries and Russia. The stats now are about 64,000 total deaths in the USA and about 82,000 in those 5 countries.

The brexited UK, led by a Trump clone, and which initially followed Trump's methods, is now the 4th worst-infected nation and has over 600 deaths a day. The UK should be grouped with its former colony, and is considered the country most like the USA today in all respects.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

The USA still has fewer tests per capita (per million pop) than the larger and hard-hit nations of Europe. No, tests are STILL not being offered to the people, nor are masks. Only certain people even qualify for tests. Trump has insisted on developing its own tests, making us wait forever, and is knocking the WHO instead of making use of the tests it has provided to other nations like Germany and South Korea who do far more testing than the USA does, and thus have kept their infections and deaths down.

This and the results reflect on Trump very negatively, except of course among his stubborn supporters who refuse to take account of any facts, except for Kelly Ann Conway's "alternative facts."

I see now that in Brazil, another country mis-led by a Trump clone, cases and deaths are rising fast despite poor testing. Brazil has now knocked China out of the top 10!
(04-30-2020, 12:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 11:58 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020, 05:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Most nations and US states have shut down non-essential businesses and issued shelter-in-place orders.

At least you understand that those two things are different things, unlike Bob.  You are, however, incorrect about the fact.  South Korea had no blanket shut downs of businesses before their outbreak had already subsided.  Masks and perhaps better attention to hygiene are the only obvious candidates for why Pacific Rim nations did better, though South Korea also benefited from an annual school shutdown that happened at a good time.

I have surgical style masks that I ordered a month ago.  I have another pack of 50 on order for a month from now, as well as a few KN-95 masks.  These were all through Amazon.

If you don't want to sew for yourself, you can get cloth masks on Etsy with much shorter shipping times.

Are you serious? South Korea got on the job starting day one, and kept the problem from getting started in the first place. That's no longer an option for us. If we had been testing, contact tracing and isolating back when the Donald was saying things would take care of themselves, we might have been able to do it here too.

Good luck getting him to acknowledge facts.

Hope springs eternal in the hearts of idealists and new agers like me Smile
(04-30-2020, 03:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 12:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 11:58 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020, 05:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Most nations and US states have shut down non-essential businesses and issued shelter-in-place orders.

At least you understand that those two things are different things, unlike Bob.  You are, however, incorrect about the fact.  South Korea had no blanket shut downs of businesses before their outbreak had already subsided.  Masks and perhaps better attention to hygiene are the only obvious candidates for why Pacific Rim nations did better, though South Korea also benefited from an annual school shutdown that happened at a good time.

I have surgical style masks that I ordered a month ago.  I have another pack of 50 on order for a month from now, as well as a few KN-95 masks.  These were all through Amazon.

If you don't want to sew for yourself, you can get cloth masks on Etsy with much shorter shipping times.

Are you serious? South Korea got on the job starting day one, and kept the problem from getting started in the first place. That's no longer an option for us. If we had been testing, contact tracing and isolating back when the Donald was saying things would take care of themselves, we might have been able to do it here too.

Good luck getting him to acknowledge facts.

Hope springs eternal in the hearts of idealists and new agers like me Smile

You still think he can learn? You must be further gone than I thought. Smile
(04-30-2020, 01:38 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Just do not get the disease. If you die of it, then economic consequences will not matter. Recoveries are slow, and I see a ratio of about 30 recoveries to deaths. A 3% chance of death as opposed to recovery? Drunk driving looks safer, and I consider that too much a risk and an unconscionable risk to take.  

So far we have about a 3-1 ratio of recoveries to deaths. People are not recovering quickly. Long hospital stays are themselves extremely costly, especially if they involve people on public assistance. I am on public assistance for medical treatments, so I consider it my responsibility to not contract this horrible disease.  Maybe people who have severe complications will be sent off to nursing homes to replace as patients those who died of the epidemic, thus keeping those places alive and profitable. People have been sick from COVID-19 for over a month. 

COVID-19 will have costs analogous to a nasty war, and it will bloat the budget deficit. Maybe some of us get the time in which to do something that makes our lives better after the Plague of 2020 than before. Maybe we will find new interests worth sharing after this monstrous plague is over. This is a good time for expanding cultural experiences or taking on-line courses. But there is a catch: one must survive.  So it is with all Crisis eras. 

COVID-19 is more a natural disaster than anything else, but the response of our President has been execrable.
For all I know, I may have already had the disease and miraculously survived without any treatment. What if the death rate turns out to be much less than a percent or equal or less than the rate associated with the common flu or pneumonia? So, how many seniors are going to die due to loneliness caused by being separated and isolated from friends and loved ones for an extended period of time ( a year or so) that appears to have no end in sight?

Personally, I think Hilary would have hesitated longer than Trump with imposing strict travel bans and cutting off trade with China myself. To be fare, I think Jeb Bush would have been more hesitant than Trump too. I think both of them would have stuck the cozy blue/cozy red agreements that made them all rich. Now, why aren't you able to see that as clearly as me or any other middle American voter these days. Yes, Trump continued his campaign for as long as the competition continued theirs and Trump ignored the severity for as long as Democrat's ignored it too and downplayed its significance like everyone else was doing at the time too. Yes, a partisan hack would ignore those facts as if those facts weren't true and even call someone a liar or a racist for pointing them out or stating them in public during a public trial dedicated to removing Donald Trump. How many years have I given you and other liberals here the opportunity to change my opinion of liberals and my opinion of what liberals stand for these days? How many years have you failed and how much more have you dug yourself in deeper and hurt yourself further at this point?
(04-30-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]You still think he can learn?  You must be further gone than I thought.  Smile

I think he's shown that he's able to learn better than all of you at this point. Good luck with living under the Progressives and good luck with keeping up with all the taxes and added costs that are going to be imposed on you, your property, your retirement funds and so forth.
(04-30-2020, 11:58 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020, 05:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Most nations and US states have shut down non-essential businesses and issued shelter-in-place orders.

At least you understand that those two things are different things, unlike Bob.  You are, however, incorrect about the fact.  South Korea had no blanket shut downs of businesses before their outbreak had already subsided.  Masks and perhaps better attention to hygiene are the only obvious candidates for why Pacific Rim nations did better, though South Korea also benefited from an annual school shutdown that happened at a good time.

I have surgical style masks that I ordered a month ago.  I have another pack of 50 on order for a month from now, as well as a few KN-95 masks.  These were all through Amazon.

If you don't want to sew for yourself, you can get cloth masks on Etsy with much shorter shipping times.

Thanks for the tip. Esty is much faster. I ordered one for $18 and I should get it within 9 days with free shipping.
(04-30-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 03:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 12:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 11:58 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]At least you understand that those two things are different things, unlike Bob.  You are, however, incorrect about the fact.  South Korea had no blanket shut downs of businesses before their outbreak had already subsided.  Masks and perhaps better attention to hygiene are the only obvious candidates for why Pacific Rim nations did better, though South Korea also benefited from an annual school shutdown that happened at a good time.

I have surgical style masks that I ordered a month ago.  I have another pack of 50 on order for a month from now, as well as a few KN-95 masks.  These were all through Amazon.

If you don't want to sew for yourself, you can get cloth masks on Etsy with much shorter shipping times.

Are you serious? South Korea got on the job starting day one, and kept the problem from getting started in the first place. That's no longer an option for us. If we had been testing, contact tracing and isolating back when the Donald was saying things would take care of themselves, we might have been able to do it here too.

Good luck getting him to acknowledge facts.

Hope springs eternal in the hearts of idealists and new agers like me Smile

You still think he can learn?  You must be further gone than I thought.  Smile

UP in the new age ethers Smile

I even learned something from HIM today. Who knows, my good example could inspire him. Oh well, I dream on....
(04-30-2020, 03:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]You still think he can learn?  You must be further gone than I thought.  Smile

I think he's shown that he's able to learn better than all of you at this point. Good luck with living under the Progressives and good luck with keeping up with all the taxes and added costs that are going to be imposed on you, your property, your retirement funds and so forth.

See, you guys are only concerned about taxes. Blue people might pay more taxes, but we create a society in which there's more prosperity and opportunity because we pay more taxes. You git whutcha pay fer. I just paid my taxes, but I got a good $4000 federal credit for my solar panels this year. I'm glad the Democrats insisted on keeping it before Trump got in.
(04-30-2020, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a pretty good synopsis of what South Korea did and when.

Much better documentation of the actual facts are here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coron...outh_Korea
(04-30-2020, 04:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 03:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]You still think he can learn?  You must be further gone than I thought.  Smile

I think he's shown that he's able to learn better than all of you at this point. Good luck with living under the Progressives and good luck with keeping up with all the taxes and added costs that are going to be imposed on you, your property, your retirement funds and so forth.

See, you guys are only concerned about taxes. Blue people might pay more taxes, but we create a society in which there's more prosperity and opportunity because we pay more taxes. You git whutcha pay fer. I just paid my taxes, but I got a good $4000 federal credit for my solar panels this year. I'm glad the Democrats insisted on keeping it before Trump got in.
We're only concerned about taxes. Are you sure about that? You guys seem way more concerned about taxes/ taxation than us. We are more concerned about wealth than taxation like you guys. I get the impression that the bulk of the Democratic supporters these days are either living off it or reliant upon it stuff related to it or directly related to it politically and empowered by it somehow or another these days. I think it's quite obvious and I'm amazed that you're unable to see it. So, how much did you pay for your solar panels? I assume that it costed you a lot more than 4000. I had a customer who paid several thousand dollars to have them installed.
(04-30-2020, 07:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]We're only concerned about taxes. Are you sure about that? You guys seem way more concerned about taxation than us. We are more concerned about individual wealth than taxation like you guys. I get the impression that the bulk of the Democratic supporters are either living off it or reliant upon it or directly related to it and empowered by it somehow or another these days. I think it's quite obvious and I'm amazed that you're unable to see it.

The Republican unraveling memes have been low tax, small government, cut domestic spending for years. They have gone way beyond the point of diminishing return.

I know that off an Engineer’s pay I am not living off, reliant, directly related to it or otherwise. Neither do I know of many that are. You sound like you are wallowing in Reagan’s welfare queen myth. If you allow yourself to indulge in a false sense of what is common, you come up with strange ideals.
(04-30-2020, 04:52 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a pretty good synopsis of what South Korea did and when.

Much better documentation of the actual facts are here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coron...outh_Korea

I note how many Asian countries had encountered the SARS and MERS epidemics had planned for future outbreaks. The plans seemed to have worked, in spite of a few mistakes, and in contrast to Trump dismissing our planners. The South Korean plan certainly beats Trump sending people into the quaranteen early, then break the quarantine by having his people living in the local community. That started the localized spreading in some places. Making mistakes was common in the early days, but we made some whoppers.
(04-30-2020, 03:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 01:38 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Just do not get the disease. If you die of it, then economic consequences will not matter. Recoveries are slow, and I see a ratio of about 30 recoveries to deaths. A 3% chance of death as opposed to recovery? Drunk driving looks safer, and I consider that too much a risk and an unconscionable risk to take.  

So far we have about a 3-1 ratio of recoveries to deaths. People are not recovering quickly. Long hospital stays are themselves extremely costly, especially if they involve people on public assistance. I am on public assistance for medical treatments, so I consider it my responsibility to not contract this horrible disease.  Maybe people who have severe complications will be sent off to nursing homes to replace as patients those who died of the epidemic, thus keeping those places alive and profitable. People have been sick from COVID-19 for over a month. 

COVID-19 will have costs analogous to a nasty war, and it will bloat the budget deficit. Maybe some of us get the time in which to do something that makes our lives better after the Plague of 2020 than before. Maybe we will find new interests worth sharing after this monstrous plague is over. This is a good time for expanding cultural experiences or taking on-line courses. But there is a catch: one must survive.  So it is with all Crisis eras. 

COVID-19 is more a natural disaster than anything else, but the response of our President has been execrable.

For all I know, I may have already had the disease and miraculously survived without any treatment.

How would you know?


Quote:What if the death rate turns out to be much less than a percent or equal or less than the rate associated with the common flu or pneumonia?

Rhetorical question contradicted by facts. This plague has been killing people at levels associated with bungled wars.  People may not be dying by shell strikes, ships sinking, crashing in downed military aircraft, or dying in POW camps, and few of the dying are of the usual age of soldiers. But they are dying. In about two months we have the American death toll surpassing our war death tolls in Korea and Vietnam. 

Pneumonia may be the coup de grace for people with COVID-19 as it often is for cancer and congestive heart failure.    


Quote:So, how many seniors are going to die due to loneliness caused by being separated and isolated from friends and loved ones for an extended period of time ( a year or so) that appears to have no end in sight?

Do you know a vulnerable senior? Then buy and lend that senior a nice tablet with good internet access. (obviously it goes back to you once that senior dies of any cause). Elderly people are sharper with computers than you might think, and there is much that they particularly like. If that senior has no phone get a smartphone and start calling. Conversations can be very fulfilling. These people will appreciate the kindness. 

Sheesh. People have not been visiting nursing homes to visit elderly relatives as would be the optimum in good times. Call. Send letters and e-mails.  Just make sure that that senior does not use the Internet to be fleeced by shysters who exploit their loneliness.


Quote:Personally, I think Hilary would have hesitated longer than Trump with imposing strict travel bans and cutting off trade with China myself.

Pointless speculation. One thing that Hillary would not have done is to dismantle the early-warning system that Obama set up. Donald Trump likely hates Obama's guts so much that he would undo anything that Obama did. OK, that is appropriate if the prior leader was Adolf Hitler or Saddam Hussein... the judgment of History will clearly show that Obama was an above-average President, and that undoing what one dislikes about his Presidency is best done piecemeal at most. 

As G.K. Chesterton put it, before you take down a fence, make sure that you know why the fence is there.   


Quote:To be fare, I think Jeb Bush would have been more hesitant than Trump too.

Hesitancy on undoing everything that Obama did? That has a name: caution. Caution is a great political virtue. Karl Rove, never a friend of President Obama, was once asked if he had anything good to say about Obama. Rove said that at the least Obama is cautious. 

I will take cautiousness over recklessness any day. Surely you make sure that all electrical power is off before you take the chance of exposing you to a juiced wire or to a sharp object that can maul you badly if it suddenly starts operating, don't you? If you cannot see the analogue that I make therein to politics, then you miss something serious.


Quote:I think both of them would have stuck the cozy blue/cozy red agreements that made them all rich.

I would hope that there is more to politics than enriching one's bank account, such as service that creates a personal legacy. If I were a politician I would want to have my name associated with positive achievements and not with scandal or failure.I'd rather be associated with John F Kennedy than with John Dillinger -- wouldn't you?   


Quote:Now, why aren't you able to see that as clearly as me or any other middle American voter these days.

You have no more claim to be a middle-American voter than I do. We both live in states that border Canada, although I am probably closer to the Canadian border than you are. So what! You are out of phase politically with the majority in your state most of the time. Except in 2016 I have voted with my state in all Presidential elections, and except in 1996 I have voted as my state in all Senatorial elections. (From 1978 to 1992 I was living in Texas, by the way. Averaging between Michigan and Texas in the last 42 years I might be more Middle-American than you. Somewhere in Missouri, maybe? Missouri -- yuck!

On view of your political values you are almost surely out of touch with your state,  But I am in no position to claim that California or New York is any less American than is Alabama or Wyoming. Go figure. 

 

Quote:Yes, Trump continued his campaign for as long as the competition continued theirs and Trump ignored the severity for as long as Democrat's ignored it too and downplayed its significance like everyone else was doing at the time too.

Wrong! Some State governors acted much faster and decisively than did the President. They led; the President lagged. We had lead time that other countries lacked, and President Trump wasted that precious time. A wise person would have recognized that a respiratory disease that kills the mayor of a large Chinese city, an Iranian general and an Iranian ayatollah, and a retired Italian judge is a clear and present danger to be met swiftly, wisely, and decisively. 

I could say what I would do as President... but it would be moot, as someone else is. I certainly wouldn't be holding political rallies. I would be taking cues from others who might get ahead of me. I would heed people more knowledgeable than I am. I would probably tell Americans to shut down what they have shut down even faster so that America could get through the mess faster and with less danger. I would also expect to be a one-term President because of the economic meltdown.   
  

Quote:Yes, a partisan hack would ignore those facts as if those facts weren't true and even call someone a liar or a racist for pointing them out or stating them in public during a public trial dedicated to removing Donald Trump.


Did President Trump really need to make that "perfect phone call"?  John Bolton (someone that I dislike) called it "a drug deal" -- which is about a contemptuous as one can get toward a gross blunder and literal crime. 

Quote: How many years have I given you and other liberals here the opportunity to change my opinion of liberals and my opinion of what liberals stand for these days? How many years have you failed and how much more have you dug yourself in deeper and hurt yourself further at this point?

I doubt that you were going to change your mind. The only harm that I have done to myself is to do this instead of something more productive.
(04-30-2020, 04:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]UP in the new age ethers Smile

I even learned something from HIM today. Who knows, my good example could inspire him. Oh well, I dream on....
Yep. You go right ahead and continue dreaming on....
(04-30-2020, 07:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020, 04:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]UP in the new age ethers Smile

I even learned something from HIM today. Who knows, my good example could inspire him. Oh well, I dream on....
Yep. You go right ahead and continue dreaming on....

Happy talk keep talkin' happy talk
Talk about things you'd like to do.
You gotta have a dream
if you don't have a dream
How you gonna have a dream come true?