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One model: There is "DE-scription, there is PRE-scription and there is PRO-scription. I think folks generate their own personal belief system with various mixtures of the three.

Description shows how good we are as individuals at perceiving, interpreting and defining objective reality. Of course, that's the primary problem in the branch of philosophy called epistemology. The study of this is not trivial. However, often we can gather a group of people of good faith and come up with a decent picture of "reality." A shared set of facts, figures and interpretations that can roughly describe some piece of reality of interest.

PREscription is more abstract. This is the part of our belief system where we decide how things SHOULD be. Sometimes, pieces of our reality are as they SHOULD in our opinion. Sometimes little or nothing is. Then, of course, we go around ranting about how things need to change to be as they SHOULD be. So ... there SHOULD be peace. There SHOULD be kindness and generosity. There SHOULD be safety, jobs, food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

PROscription is also abstract, but perhaps resides more in the present reality. These are our beliefs of how things should NOT be. Thus, there should NOT be war, violence, injustice, racism, etc.

Some folks I know tend to be mostly Proscriptionists. Others, mostly Prescriptionists. What makes politics difficult is that some PROscriptionists think there should NOT be government, or regulations, etc. Runs headlong into the PREscriptionists on the other side who might want a benevolent regulated socialism.

What I find mostly missing is an adequate DEscription of our civilization/society, AND an articulate PRE and PRO scription of the desired outcome, AND a change management plan to get from point A to point B.

Take the issue of racism. One side PROscribes its existence, while DEscribing its existence with much evidence. The other side covertly PREscribes its existence, while denying that it even exists, thereby dodging the DEscription part.

So we can't even come up with a shared picture of the description of the issue. How in the world, then, can the issue be negotiated and a change management plan designed and executed.

Back to a point made in a previous post, intelligence only deals with how much facility we have at sorting and rearranging our information, interpreting it and deciding whether we like or don't like our reality, then running it through our belief system, which has little to do with our intelligence, and coming up with our own desired outcome.
(08-21-2020, 07:13 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]One model:  There is "DE-scription, there is PRE-scription and there is PRO-scription.  I think folks generate their own personal belief system with various mixtures of the three.

Description shows how good we are as individuals at perceiving, interpreting and defining objective reality.  Of course, that's the primary problem in the branch of philosophy called epistemology.  The study of this is not trivial.  However, often we can gather a group of people of good faith and come up with a decent picture of "reality."  A shared set of facts, figures and interpretations that can roughly describe some piece of reality of interest.

PREscription is more abstract.  This is the part of our belief system where we decide how things SHOULD be.  Sometimes, pieces of our reality are as they SHOULD in our opinion.  Sometimes little or nothing is.  Then, of course, we go around ranting about how things need to change to be as they SHOULD be.  So ... there SHOULD be peace.  There SHOULD be kindness and generosity.  There SHOULD be safety, jobs, food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

PROscription is also abstract, but perhaps resides more in the present reality.  These are our beliefs of how things should NOT be.  Thus, there should NOT be war, violence, injustice, racism, etc.

Some folks I know tend to be mostly Proscriptionists.  Others, mostly Prescriptionists.  What makes politics difficult is that some PROscriptionists think there should NOT be government, or regulations, etc.  Runs headlong into the PREscriptionists on the other side who might want a benevolent regulated socialism.

What I find mostly missing is an adequate DEscription of our civilization/society, AND an articulate PRE and PRO scription of the desired outcome, AND a change management plan to get from point A to point B.

Take the issue of racism.  One side PROscribes its existence, while DEscribing its existence with much evidence.  The other side covertly PREscribes its existence, while denying that it even exists, thereby dodging the DEscription part.  

So we can't even come up with a shared picture of the description of the issue.  How in the world, then, can the issue be negotiated and a change management plan designed and executed.

Back to a point made in a previous post, intelligence only deals with how much facility we have at sorting and rearranging our information, interpreting it and deciding whether we like or don't like our reality, then running it through our belief system, which has little to do with our intelligence, and coming up with our own desired outcome.
What's your evidence of racism today? I already saw a black President. I see minorities on the Supreme Court. I see minorities in Congress mainly on the Democratic side (the side with the bulk of minority support) these days. So, how big is the issue today? How racist is the country today compared to the 60's? I haven't seen a sign on a door of a public restaurant prohibiting minorities from entering my entire life. So, how bout you, have you seen any blacks or Hispanics or whatever being refused service strictly on the basis of their race?

Sooner or later, the Democratic side is going to have to let go of race because the bulk of the issues are more related to class, parenting and proper child rearing than race today. You want to be dumb and go along with the Obama's and the liberal activists who make their livings off racism and perceived matters relating to race or gender and politically advancement related to race or gender which most American people are aware of today and ignore the real problems that's fine. I've seen some personal altercations with minorities that turned into accusations of racism and threats of lawsuits and so forth. Kamala Harris isn't going to be able to hide from her peers on the other side of the spectrum that don't give a shit her looks or her skin tone or her being a Democratic Senator from a state where Democrats running against Democrats for Senate seats is common these day.

Just so you understand, we are not on the side with all the minority problems with all the minorities elected by minorities to solve minority related problems. We are not on the side that racial bias and gender bias determine political positions, Vice Presidential running mates, corporate positions, whether or not a person keeps their job and so forth. That's where you're old party is at today.
"character (or virtue) matters greatly, and if we don't promote it we get a merciless jungle. We have a great trove of culture and learning that we ignore at great cost to the quality of our lives." --- P. Brower

Much agreed, although my understanding of that trove of culture is wider than yours, I think, but we agree on a core element of it.
(08-22-2020, 02:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2020, 07:13 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]One model:  There is "DE-scription, there is PRE-scription and there is PRO-scription.  I think folks generate their own personal belief system with various mixtures of the three.

Description shows how good we are as individuals at perceiving, interpreting and defining objective reality.  Of course, that's the primary problem in the branch of philosophy called epistemology.  The study of this is not trivial.  However, often we can gather a group of people of good faith and come up with a decent picture of "reality."  A shared set of facts, figures and interpretations that can roughly describe some piece of reality of interest.

PREscription is more abstract.  This is the part of our belief system where we decide how things SHOULD be.  Sometimes, pieces of our reality are as they SHOULD in our opinion.  Sometimes little or nothing is.  Then, of course, we go around ranting about how things need to change to be as they SHOULD be.  So ... there SHOULD be peace.  There SHOULD be kindness and generosity.  There SHOULD be safety, jobs, food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

PROscription is also abstract, but perhaps resides more in the present reality.  These are our beliefs of how things should NOT be.  Thus, there should NOT be war, violence, injustice, racism, etc.

Some folks I know tend to be mostly Proscriptionists.  Others, mostly Prescriptionists.  What makes politics difficult is that some PROscriptionists think there should NOT be government, or regulations, etc.  Runs headlong into the PREscriptionists on the other side who might want a benevolent regulated socialism.

What I find mostly missing is an adequate DEscription of our civilization/society, AND an articulate PRE and PRO scription of the desired outcome, AND a change management plan to get from point A to point B.

Take the issue of racism.  One side PROscribes its existence, while DEscribing its existence with much evidence.  The other side covertly PREscribes its existence, while denying that it even exists, thereby dodging the DEscription part.  

So we can't even come up with a shared picture of the description of the issue.  How in the world, then, can the issue be negotiated and a change management plan designed and executed.

Back to a point made in a previous post, intelligence only deals with how much facility we have at sorting and rearranging our information, interpreting it and deciding whether we like or don't like our reality, then running it through our belief system, which has little to do with our intelligence, and coming up with our own desired outcome.
What's your evidence of racism today? I already saw a black President. I see minorities on the Supreme Court. I see minorities in Congress mainly on the Democratic side (the side with the bulk of minority support) these days. So, how big is the issue today? How racist is the country today compared to the 60's? I haven't seen a sign on a door of a public restaurant prohibiting minorities from entering my entire life. So, how bout you, have you seen any blacks or Hispanics or whatever being refused service strictly on the basis of their race?

Sooner or later, the Democratic side is going to have to let go of race because the bulk of the issues are more related to class, parenting  and proper child rearing than race today. You want to be dumb and go along with the Obama's and the liberal activists who make their  livings off racism and perceived matters relating to race or gender and politically advancement related to race or gender which most American people are aware of today and ignore the real problems that's fine. I've seen some personal altercations with minorities that turned into accusations of racism and threats of lawsuits and so forth. Kamala Harris isn't going to be able to hide from her peers on the other side of the spectrum that don't give a shit her looks or her skin tone or her being a Democratic Senator from a state where Democrats running against Democrats for Senate seats is common these day.

Just so you understand, we are not on the side with all the minority problems with all the minorities elected by minorities to solve minority related problems. We are not on the side that racial bias and gender bias determine political positions, Vice Presidential running mates, corporate positions, whether or not a person keeps their job and so forth. That's where you're old party is at today.

Classic does not admit that enormous wealth gaps, racial profiling and brutality by police, educational gaps, and the dog whistle of anti-welfare slogans that he hears and responds to, are evidence of continued racism. So also are the excessive fear and brutality toward immigrants and the travel bans on people from other religions imposed by his side. So also are the hate crimes that rise wherever his side's hero speaks.

I think though that politicians of liberal and leftist stripes are not without plans. Warren, Sanders and Biden have extensive plans on how to get from point A to point B. 

Those who oppose these plans like Gingrich, Bush, McConnell and Trump are those who PROscribe continuation of the status quo in which the rich and white get richer while others (including all life and the Earth itself) get poorer or are more restricted and abused.

This opposition prevents implementation of the plans. Only a blue victory in our 4T will allow them to proceed and lead to renewed progress, although not to perfection. But, the best condition we can hope for is continuing progress. What we have now is stagnation and regression, thanks to the victories in the last 40 or 50 years by the other side. 

What we most need now is victory by our side. And while the other side sees itself as the good guys and the true Americans and sees our side as enemies, only our side has the potential to reconnect all the sides in the USA, and to restart progress for everyone that lives up to the full meaning of the creed described in our founding documents. It is ironic, and not always polite to say, but once in every turnings cycle comes a moment for every human being and every nation to decide. There is no substitute for victory, and only a blue victory can make a new consensus possible in the 1T.

That's part of the game of life, personally and in society. Obstacles appear, and if we can face up to them and learn from them and master them, we develop more of that virtue that brower spoke of.
(08-22-2020, 02:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]What's your evidence of racism today?

There have been now three times that racism has been called on widely to change: the Civil War period got rid of out and out slavery. The Civil Rights movement you are talking about got rid of ritual refusal of service. The Black Lives Matter protests are aimed first at racial violent policing, but I believe will go after additional elements.

That the first two were somewhat successful does not mean another such period is not called for. Injustice continues. Unfortunately, the evidence comes in the form of corpses. If you think the corpses are fine, you are part of the racist problem.
(08-22-2020, 02:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2020, 07:13 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]One model:  There is "DE-scription, there is PRE-scription and there is PRO-scription.  I think folks generate their own personal belief system with various mixtures of the three.

Description shows how good we are as individuals at perceiving, interpreting and defining objective reality.  Of course, that's the primary problem in the branch of philosophy called epistemology.  The study of this is not trivial.  However, often we can gather a group of people of good faith and come up with a decent picture of "reality."  A shared set of facts, figures and interpretations that can roughly describe some piece of reality of interest.

PREscription is more abstract.  This is the part of our belief system where we decide how things SHOULD be.  Sometimes, pieces of our reality are as they SHOULD in our opinion.  Sometimes little or nothing is.  Then, of course, we go around ranting about how things need to change to be as they SHOULD be.  So ... there SHOULD be peace.  There SHOULD be kindness and generosity.  There SHOULD be safety, jobs, food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

PROscription is also abstract, but perhaps resides more in the present reality.  These are our beliefs of how things should NOT be.  Thus, there should NOT be war, violence, injustice, racism, etc.

Some folks I know tend to be mostly Proscriptionists.  Others, mostly Prescriptionists.  What makes politics difficult is that some PROscriptionists think there should NOT be government, or regulations, etc.  Runs headlong into the PREscriptionists on the other side who might want a benevolent regulated socialism.

What I find mostly missing is an adequate DEscription of our civilization/society, AND an articulate PRE and PRO scription of the desired outcome, AND a change management plan to get from point A to point B.

Take the issue of racism.  One side PROscribes its existence, while DEscribing its existence with much evidence.  The other side covertly PREscribes its existence, while denying that it even exists, thereby dodging the DEscription part.  

So we can't even come up with a shared picture of the description of the issue.  How in the world, then, can the issue be negotiated and a change management plan designed and executed.

Back to a point made in a previous post, intelligence only deals with how much facility we have at sorting and rearranging our information, interpreting it and deciding whether we like or don't like our reality, then running it through our belief system, which has little to do with our intelligence, and coming up with our own desired outcome.

What's your evidence of racism today? I already saw a black President. I see minorities on the Supreme Court. I see minorities in Congress mainly on the Democratic side (the side with the bulk of minority support) these days. So, how big is the issue today? How racist is the country today compared to the 60's? I haven't seen a sign on a door of a public restaurant prohibiting minorities from entering my entire life. So, how bout you, have you seen any blacks or Hispanics or whatever being refused service strictly on the basis of their race?

Obama is so extreme in his talents for speaking, administration, and understanding of the legal system that his race does not matter. 


Quote:Sooner or later, the Democratic side is going to have to let go of race because the bulk of the issues are more related to class, parenting  and proper child rearing than race today. You want to be dumb and go along with the Obama's and the liberal activists who make their  livings off racism and perceived matters relating to race or gender and politically advancement related to race or gender which most American people are aware of today and ignore the real problems that's fine. I've seen some personal altercations with minorities that turned into accusations of racism and threats of lawsuits and so forth. Kamala Harris isn't going to be able to hide from her peers on the other side of the spectrum that don't give a shit her looks or her skin tone or her being a Democratic Senator from a state where Democrats running against Democrats for Senate seats is common these day.


Black people still hurt from a tradition of racism if their heritage is from slave ancestors. Slavery may be gone, but some people still feel the effects of Jim Crow practice. Add to this there is a very low-brow culture that has impressed itself upon blacks and stunted the intellectual growth of many. Obviously white people have often endured much the same.  It appalls me that the only music available in most mass-market places for selling sound equipment to customers is country (generally lacking in intellectual content... and it sounds alike on just about anything) and rap... rap music is an oxymoron. Three hundred channels, mostly of bilge, on cable TV hardly enriches life.   

Quote:Just so you understand, we are not on the side with all the minority problems with all the minorities elected by minorities to solve minority related problems. We are not on the side that racial bias and gender bias determine political positions, Vice Presidential running mates, corporate positions, whether or not a person keeps their job and so forth. That's where you're old party is at today.

White people, especially in the Mountain and Deep South, have their problems... and nobody seems to look out for making their lives better. Maybe anesthetizing them with country music, televised sports, Kitsch from dollar stores and Wal*Mart, and evangelical Christianity can keep them placid, but none of those improves them -- let alone their lives. Doing better in America depends heavily on being better as people --   being more learned, having unions to protect them from executives and shareholders who see workers as nothing more than machines of meat, being involved in formal organizations, and seeing themselves as something other than atomized individuals. To think is to subvert a nasty social order, which explains why totalitarian movements try to get people to an elementary level of learning whether from illiteracy or from high literacy and sticking people there. On the other hand, thinking is one way to make oneself invulnerable to crude propaganda from totalitarian ideologies. The level of thought appropriate for making people immune to crude propaganda as from Nazis, Ba'athists, and Stalinists requires that people be able to read between the lines -- and that level of thought is well suited to the complexity of thought necessary for accountants, physicians, attorneys, engineers, and research scientists -- and the best of creative people. Worth noting is that the KKK (arguably a fascistic, totalitarian cause) recruited most effectively from white people of slight formal education in the Jim Crow South. Klan membership didn't then well reflect upon formal learning.    

So how does one counter crude propaganda that appeals to the superficial mind that totalitarian causes need? With something better -- wittier and subtler, capable of showing how superficial the appeal is from the Other Side and how fraudulent the object is. This is from the Winter War between the Stalinist Bear and the wily Finns. Any objective observer would have expected the Finns to crumple before the overpowering might of the Soviet Union. Finland had an originally-Marxist Left, but by the late 1930's the Finns knew well what a fraud the Soviet Union was.  The Finns got no help from elsewhere other than from 'hopes and prayers' from people such as the British who had their own big problem facing another Evil Empire (you know, the First Galactic Empire in the Star Wars series is modeled after the demonic Third Reich).



 


[color=var(--yt-spec-text-primary)]Lyrics:

Kremlissänsä unta näki isä stalini,
et joka Suomalaisen nimi oli Vasili,
Kaalimaata hoitelivat balalaikkaa
soittelivat lauloivat a'vot kaikki on
harasoo!

Molotoffi sanoi kyllä tappelu nyt tyssää
kun tanssiit ripaskoo ja puhuu estää ryssää
paratiisi onpi tää, ken ei usko poikki pää,
järjestys se olla pitää vot harasoo!

Stalinilla lipussaan on sirppi vasara
ja molemmilla niillä onkin oma tietonsa
sirppi katkoo kauloja, vasaralla nauloja
lyödään musikoitten arkkuun vot harasoo

Kukoistaapi rauha sekä hyvinvointi
kun ei muuta työtä oo kuin likvidointi
paratiisi onpi tää ken ei usko poikki pää
järjestys se olla pitää vot harasoo

Mutta kremlin unet kaikki sauhuun katoaa
ja herätessään isä josef saa sen huomata
Suomen poika niin kuin hullu rajan yli on jo tullu
uhkaa viedä karjalan

Minne tässä hädissään nyt päänsä pistää
on kuin rotta loukussa ei apua näy missään
paras ehkä olla vois itsensä jos likvidois
järjestys se olla pitää vot harasoo


English Lyrics:

In the Kremlin was dreaming papa-Stalin
That every Finn's name was Vasili
Working on the cabbages, playing the balalaika
Singing that everything is good!

Molotov said the fight will end now
When everyone will dance polka and speak russian
This is a paradise, who doesn't believe off their heads!
Order there must be good!

Stalin has in his flag the sickle, hammer
And they both have their own ways
The sickle cuts heads, the hammer nails
Nails to the coffins of the musicians, vot harasoo!

Peace and wellbeing are prospering
When there's no other jobs other than liquidation
This is a paradise, who doesn't believe off their heads!
Order there must be good!

But the dreams of the Kremlin go out as smoke in the air
And when papa-Stalin wakes up he will this find out
The Finn like a crazed man has already over the border ran
And is threatening to take Karelia

Where shall he put his head now?
Like a caged rat there's no help anywhere
It'd be best if he just liquidated himself
Order there must be good![/color]



The sonic quality isn't very good, but it is contemporary Big Band music in the USA.  A few little points:

"Vassily" is a common given name among Russians.

The peoples of the Soviet Union were obliged to praise the system as the best of all possible worlds -- or else. "Liquidation" is a euphemism for execution for being an 'enemy of the people'. 

I would suppose that the Finns knew the Russians well from Tsarist times, and that there might have been some Russians still living in Finland... there might be nothing wrong with speaking Russian, naming one's son Vassily, playing a balaika, or dancing a polka... it's just not Finnish. One would have no choice other than obliterating one's Finnish heritage in a victorious Soviet Union. The problem isn't Russia -- it is the Soviet way of terror and death. 

Karelia is a region that has been under Russian or Soviet rule, except during a relatively-gentle Finnish occupation during World War II (Finland somehow got pulled onto the Axis side, but it was the only one of the Axis Powers that had any decency), with a people culturally related to the Finns. Karelians and Finns have a similar language, and aside from that one of the biggest differences is that the Finns are largely Protestant (Lutheran) and the Karelians are largely Eastern Orthodox like the Russians. 

The final verse suggests in a roundabout way that Stalin can go to Hell, which is much like his reality in the Soviet Union and what he wants for Finland.
To protect themselves from Soviet subversion, the Finns needed high-quality education that allowed people to question what they heard.  The Finns steered clear of both Stalin and Hitler. They got Karl Mannerheim instead... their equivalent of Churchill or FDR, and they certainly needed a Grey Champion.  It is unfortunate, in view of World War I  
.............................

If you remember my thread Is Connecticut the Best Place to Live? , I linked to statistical studies of America, and although black and Hispanic people had disadvantages in contrast to white people, Asian people did better than white people in most measures.  In measures of health, educational achievement, and life expectancy, white people in West Virginia did worse than black people in Maryland. OK. what Booker T. Washington called the Talented Tenth is very much alive, and it has expanded faster than the African-American population. It lives well enough that many white people could envy it. Much of the Talented Tenth (expanded to at least a Talented Fifth or Fourth) is in government employment in Maryland, but government employment relies heavily upon having a high-quality formal education. West Virginia is toward the bottom in educational attainment in America, which is what one could expect in a state in which the economy depended heavily upon mining and logging. If one has a high-quality education one knows that such work is just too dangerous for one's taste from either sudden death from accident or mass calamity or from crippling injuries that bring a sudden end to a job with at best mediocre pay. West Virginia could long get away with sub-standard education, bad roads, and poor public health because Democratic politicians could long depend upon the powerful United Mine Workers (UMW) to provide the votes for a low-tax, low-service state. As the mines were worked out, the once-small Republican Party aligned with the mine owners could take over. They inherit a bad educational system, bad roads, and bad public health. The hospital treatment of people who do not have good insurance from the UMW is awful.

I also related some side statistics. One is smoking, a practice now largely relegated to poor, ill-educated people. (Is there any question that smokers are schmucks?) Income measures could be deceiving, as one could live very well on $40 K a year in Mississippi but not so well in New York City or any other high-cost urban area on the coasts or perhaps Chicago -- so I gave an average credit rating. People don't have bad credit ratings because they splurge on consumer goodies and vacations that they can't afford; they get into trouble because  of some economic disaster such as a medical emergency or a layoff... and they get into unsolvable debt due to taxes, utilities, and medical debts. These people are often smokers, and smoking is economic distress in its own right as well as medical ruin. It may be more costly to live in Minnesota than in Mississippi because one needs more insulation in one's dwelling, at least three seasonal wardrobes, and big heating costs in the winter. On the other hand, Minnesota has a far-better educational system and a far more generous safety net than does Mississippi. 

So let us suppose that one graduates from Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, Illinois and has a choice between a contract to teach in a small town in Mississippi and in a small town in Minnesota. Minnesota  (as if you did not need to be told) has high taxes and brutal winters. In Mississippi one has comparatively mild winters and low taxes. But think of why Mississippi has such low taxes. It can't collect them easily from very poor people who earn little income to tax. 

Distance? Carbondale, Illinois is very far south. It is much closer to northern Mississippi than to southern Minnesota. But which school district is more likely to pass a millage to upgrade the schools' libraries or vocational "shop"?  Minnesota has far more people like you, Classic X'er who earn a solid income and, I presume, want your kids to at least be as successful in your blue-collar milieu.  Mississippians are more likely to burn up big chunks of their meager incomes in the cancerette habit than Minnesotans, which may be reflected in the difference in the average statewide credit score. 

But one needs be a schmuck to have faith in Stalin, to smoke, to drop out of high school, to espouse racism or religious bigotry, or to be a Trump supporter. Poverty is harder to evade in a plutocratic order run by people who can inflict their narcissistic dreams of tycoons and executives. Maybe at the conclusion of this 4T their dreams will go up in smoke, just like Stalin's dream of a Stalinist Finland.
Sorry Boomer, Xers, Millennials and Homelanders are NOT going to give up their culture, their traditions, and their music or their guns just to satisfy the obsolescent views of a bunch of Control freak boomers and Radical Feminists.
(08-22-2020, 02:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-21-2020, 07:13 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]One model:  There is "DE-scription, there is PRE-scription and there is PRO-scription.  I think folks generate their own personal belief system with various mixtures of the three.

Description shows how good we are as individuals at perceiving, interpreting and defining objective reality.  Of course, that's the primary problem in the branch of philosophy called epistemology.  The study of this is not trivial.  However, often we can gather a group of people of good faith and come up with a decent picture of "reality."  A shared set of facts, figures and interpretations that can roughly describe some piece of reality of interest.

PREscription is more abstract.  This is the part of our belief system where we decide how things SHOULD be.  Sometimes, pieces of our reality are as they SHOULD in our opinion.  Sometimes little or nothing is.  Then, of course, we go around ranting about how things need to change to be as they SHOULD be.  So ... there SHOULD be peace.  There SHOULD be kindness and generosity.  There SHOULD be safety, jobs, food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

PROscription is also abstract, but perhaps resides more in the present reality.  These are our beliefs of how things should NOT be.  Thus, there should NOT be war, violence, injustice, racism, etc.

Some folks I know tend to be mostly Proscriptionists.  Others, mostly Prescriptionists.  What makes politics difficult is that some PROscriptionists think there should NOT be government, or regulations, etc.  Runs headlong into the PREscriptionists on the other side who might want a benevolent regulated socialism.

What I find mostly missing is an adequate DEscription of our civilization/society, AND an articulate PRE and PRO scription of the desired outcome, AND a change management plan to get from point A to point B.

Take the issue of racism.  One side PROscribes its existence, while DEscribing its existence with much evidence.  The other side covertly PREscribes its existence, while denying that it even exists, thereby dodging the DEscription part.  

So we can't even come up with a shared picture of the description of the issue.  How in the world, then, can the issue be negotiated and a change management plan designed and executed.

Back to a point made in a previous post, intelligence only deals with how much facility we have at sorting and rearranging our information, interpreting it and deciding whether we like or don't like our reality, then running it through our belief system, which has little to do with our intelligence, and coming up with our own desired outcome.
What's your evidence of racism today? I already saw a black President. I see minorities on the Supreme Court. I see minorities in Congress mainly on the Democratic side (the side with the bulk of minority support) these days. So, how big is the issue today? How racist is the country today compared to the 60's? I haven't seen a sign on a door of a public restaurant prohibiting minorities from entering my entire life. So, how bout you, have you seen any blacks or Hispanics or whatever being refused service strictly on the basis of their race?

Sooner or later, the Democratic side is going to have to let go of race because the bulk of the issues are more related to class, parenting  and proper child rearing than race today. You want to be dumb and go along with the Obama's and the liberal activists who make their  livings off racism and perceived matters relating to race or gender and politically advancement related to race or gender which most American people are aware of today and ignore the real problems that's fine. I've seen some personal altercations with minorities that turned into accusations of racism and threats of lawsuits and so forth. Kamala Harris isn't going to be able to hide from her peers on the other side of the spectrum that don't give a shit her looks or her skin tone or her being a Democratic Senator from a state where Democrats running against Democrats for Senate seats is common these day.

Just so you understand, we are not on the side with all the minority problems with all the minorities elected by minorities to solve minority related problems. We are not on the side that racial bias and gender bias determine political positions, Vice Presidential running mates, corporate positions, whether or not a person keeps their job and so forth. That's where you're old party is at today.

There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.
(08-22-2020, 02:15 PM)CH86 Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry Boomer, Xers, Millennials and Homelanders are NOT going to give up their culture, their traditions, and their music or their guns just to satisfy the obsolescent views of a bunch of Control freak boomers and Radical Feminists.

Right now, Biden has framed it as character, compassion, decency, science and democracy are all on the ballot. I tend to think they will win.

Now I know you mix your generations together. Your perspective makes the primary conflict between generations rather than between red and blue. You have abandoned S&H in favor of your own prejudice. It has not occurred to you seemingly that there are progressives and conservatives in each generation? Thus, you have a rather skewed perceptions of motivations. But, if you want basic American values, you sort of have to get rid of Republicans this election.

I don't see the Democrats as going after culture, traditions or music. That shows you just have no clue as to true motivations. You try to whip up absurd fears.

Guns? The one thing Trump may have done right is approve judges who are into the intent of the authors of a law and to the text. They may not be as loyal to Trump personally as he likes, but they stay loyal to the intent of the authors and to the text. The Second is obsolete. Compromise is possible. If the Democrats try to ignore the Second they are apt to run into an absolute barrier. If they try to compromise, who knows?
CNN has written an article, Trump, without evidence, accuses FDA of delaying coronavirus vaccine trials and pressures agency chief.

Basically, Trump has promised that COVUS will go away in the near future, has been warned that there is no basis for the promise.  He wants to blame someone else for his making it.  The pros want to require enough trials to make the vaccine safe and effective before releasing it to the masses.  Trump needs a miracle before November 3rd to maintain power, and the medical experts are declining to promise one.
(08-22-2020, 02:48 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-22-2020, 02:15 PM)CH86 Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry Boomer, Xers, Millennials and Homelanders are NOT going to give up their culture, their traditions, and their music or their guns just to satisfy the obsolescent views of a bunch of Control freak boomers and Radical Feminists.

Right now, Biden has framed it as character, compassion, decency, science and democracy are all on the ballot.  I tend to think they will win.

Now I know you mix your generations together.  Your perspective makes the primary conflict between generations rather than between red and blue.  You have abandoned S&H in favor of your own prejudice.  It has not occurred to you seemingly that there are progressives and conservatives in each generation?  Thus, you have a rather skewed perceptions of motivations.  But, if you want basic American values, you sort of have to get rid of Republicans this election.

I don't see the Democrats as going after culture, traditions or music.  That shows you just have no clue as to true motivations.  You try to whip up absurd fears.

Guns?  The one thing Trump may have done right is approve judges who are into the intent of the authors of a law and to the text.  They may not be as loyal to Trump personally as he likes, but they stay loyal to the intent of the authors and to the text.  The Second is obsolete.  Compromise is possible.  If the Democrats try to ignore the Second they are apt to run into an absolute barrier.  If they try to compromise, who knows?

Nope the Red vs Blue is more a binary conflict among boomers, Among the young it effectively becomes a three way fight with Both Conservative and working class progressive hating the globalist feminist culture of the boomer bootlicking SJWs. A Democratic party that sides with SJWs instead of progressives is very likely to crackdown against culture, traditions and music, as well as attempt to take away our gun rights. Which Side ultimately becomes home of the under 50 crowd will win the current political divide. Right now the GOP is more apt to do so because they are embracing younger leadership and most of their top leaders are middle age people. Meanwhile the DNC is currently filled with elder dinosaurs and the only young people allowed are SJWs who agree with every insane thing the elder dinosaurs propose. Also the DNC party leadership is actively attacking the younger elements of their base for having the "Wrong" views on many issues; again the leadership favors instead SJW sycophants to the boomer leaders.

A final note here: The DNC is clueless especially given Biden and the DNC claiming we need "character, compassion and decency" nope, most xers, millennials and Gen-Zer's consider those to be fighting words. We despise boomer tyranny and attempts by boomers ever since Xers were teenagers (Before we millennials and Gen-zers were even born) to turn us into globalist boy scouts. WE HATE GLOBALISM AND WE HATE GLOBALIST TYRANNY, UN TYRANNY AND HUMAN RIGHTS TYRANNY.

It is sad the Boomers and their Globalist SJW sycophants have hijacked the word "progressive", this is what confuses many people both of the left and the right. Actual progressives hate globalism, hate Biden, hate Kamala, and LOVE Tulsi.
(08-22-2020, 02:15 PM)CH86 Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry Boomer, Xers, Millennials and Homelanders are NOT going to give up their culture, their traditions, and their music or their guns just to satisfy the obsolescent views of a bunch of Control freak boomers and Radical Feminists.

X does have a creative culture. Reactive cultures can be rich in cultural expression (in musical composition alone, the Gilded had Bruckner, Smetana, Brahms, Saint-Saens, Bizet, Mussorgsky, Borodin, Tchaikovsky, and Dvorak; the Lost have Berg, Hanson, Prokofiev, Atterberg, Madetoja, Honegger, Martinu, Villa-Lobos, Chavez, Tippett, Gershwin, and Copland). Having had some slight experience in teaching X kids, I am surprised at how much creativity I see in X. The Harlem Renaissance, the discovery by American blacks that they gad a cultural voice, was largely a Lost phenomenon. 

As with other Civic generations, the Millennial generation is slow to develop a cultural voice. Considering that prior Civic generations gave the world Leonardo, Cervantes, Shakespeare, Mozart, Goya, Goethe, Disney, Shostakovich, Welles, Kurosawa, Bergman, Fellini, and Ligeti... don't prejudge Millennial adults for blandness. (Hokusai was technically a contemporary of Goya, but Japan was far outside West that he was irrelevant for a long time. Not now). 

Because cinema, if good, is a big project, I would expect Millennial adults to do well in it as did the GI Generation.

By the way -- Civic youth is usually (except for those from pampered elites) rather hardscrabble by the standards of later generations. Civic adults do not want children to experience the same stultifying deprivations.
(08-22-2020, 09:22 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN has written an article, Trump, without evidence, accuses FDA of delaying coronavirus vaccine trials and pressures agency chief.

Basically, Trump has promised that COVUS will go away in the near future, has been warned that there is no basis for the promise.  He wants to blame someone else for his making it.  The pros want to require enough trials to make the vaccine safe and effective before releasing it to the masses.  Trump needs a miracle before November 3rd to maintain power, and the medical experts are declining to promise one.

This is the sort of thing that I would expect of a Stalin, accusing people not acting fast enough in accordance with his desires or tampering in his meddling of being 'wreckers'. Mercifully the President can't take revenge as Stalin could... 

If Trump had been an effective, humane, and sane leader he would have compelled a nationwide shutdown and compulsory use of masks. He would have treated the SARS-2 virus as a national enemy on the same level as at least Osama bin Laden. Now it approaches Hitler and Tojo as a killer of Americans. 

Medical science isn't changing its ways simply because some political figure demands that things be done faster.

As usual my contempt is directed at Donald Trump.
(08-23-2020, 11:03 AM)CH86 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-22-2020, 02:48 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-22-2020, 02:15 PM)CH86 Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry Boomer, Xers, Millennials and Homelanders are NOT going to give up their culture, their traditions, and their music or their guns just to satisfy the obsolescent views of a bunch of Control freak boomers and Radical Feminists.

Right now, Biden has framed it as character, compassion, decency, science and democracy are all on the ballot.  I tend to think they will win.

Now I know you mix your generations together.  Your perspective makes the primary conflict between generations rather than between red and blue.  You have abandoned S&H in favor of your own prejudice.  It has not occurred to you seemingly that there are progressives and conservatives in each generation?  Thus, you have a rather skewed perceptions of motivations.  But, if you want basic American values, you sort of have to get rid of Republicans this election.

I don't see the Democrats as going after culture, traditions or music.  That shows you just have no clue as to true motivations.  You try to whip up absurd fears.

Guns?  The one thing Trump may have done right is approve judges who are into the intent of the authors of a law and to the text.  They may not be as loyal to Trump personally as he likes, but they stay loyal to the intent of the authors and to the text.  The Second is obsolete.  Compromise is possible.  If the Democrats try to ignore the Second they are apt to run into an absolute barrier.  If they try to compromise, who knows?

Nope the Red vs Blue is more a binary conflict among boomers, Among the young it effectively becomes a three way fight with Both Conservative and working class progressive hating the globalist feminist culture of the boomer bootlicking SJWs. A Democratic party that sides with SJWs instead of progressives is very likely to crackdown against culture, traditions and music, as well as attempt to take away our gun rights. Which Side ultimately becomes home of the under 50 crowd will win the current political divide. Right now the GOP is more apt to do so because they are embracing younger leadership and most of their top leaders are middle age people. Meanwhile the DNC is currently filled with elder dinosaurs and the only young people allowed are SJWs who agree with every insane thing the elder dinosaurs propose. Also the DNC party leadership is actively attacking the younger elements of their base for having the "Wrong" views on many issues; again the leadership favors instead SJW sycophants to the boomer leaders.

A final note here: The DNC is clueless especially given Biden and the DNC claiming we need "character, compassion and decency" nope, most xers, millennials and Gen-Zer's consider those to be fighting words. We despise boomer tyranny and attempts by boomers ever since Xers were teenagers (Before we millennials and Gen-zers were even born) to turn us into globalist boy scouts. WE HATE GLOBALISM AND WE HATE GLOBALIST TYRANNY, UN TYRANNY AND HUMAN RIGHTS TYRANNY.

It is sad the Boomers and their Globalist SJW sycophants have hijacked the word "progressive", this is what confuses many people both of the left and the right. Actual progressives hate globalism, hate Biden, hate Kamala, and LOVE Tulsi.

We progressives of all generations will continue to love progressive leaders, as we hope Biden and Kamala will be, and some will mistakenly love Tulsi too. We support the UN and recognize the truth in globalism, but oppose corporate favors given in its name, and support fair trade. We support local and community rights, but recognize that nation states are fundamentally anachronistic, if taken as primary, and that war is obsolete and to be avoided unless attacks occur by rogues. We despise fighting among generations, and understand that real T4T fans value all the generations and the 4 archetypes. Boomers who attack younger generations, and younger generations who attack boomers, are not true readers and fans of The Fourth Turning and Generations.

Human rights and democracy we progressives take as fundamental, and vigorously oppose those tyrants who put down and oppress people by taking them away. Also, we recognize the Rights of Nature, and the primary need to reverse climate change, pollution and habitat loss. Social Justice and the rights of all races and genders is essential to a society that recognizes human rights, which also include the right of cultural expression, and the rights, value and need for both spirituality and science, and does not include supposed gun rights, hoping that they can be limited or curtailed wherever possible. Progressives value work and workers, and the need for income and health support for those in need and for regulations and unions to protect fair wages and working conditions in all nations and globally. Such regulations also protect smaller business and entrepreneurs against infringement of genuine free enterprise by monopoly capitalism and oligarchy and ruthless speculators.

I look upon the Green Party and its 10 Key Values as originally conceived, as the best carrier of the progressive movement, and the voice of the future.
(08-23-2020, 11:03 AM)CH86 Wrote: [ -> ]A final note here: The DNC is clueless especially given Biden and the DNC claiming we need "character, compassion and decency" nope, most xers, millennials and Gen-Zer's consider those to be fighting words. We despise boomer tyranny and attempts by boomers ever since Xers were teenagers (Before we millennials and Gen-zers were even born) to turn us into globalist boy scouts. WE HATE GLOBALISM AND WE HATE GLOBALIST TYRANNY, UN TYRANNY AND HUMAN RIGHTS TYRANNY.

I almost have to treat this paragraph in four parts.  Might as well.

***

The election has turned into a referendum on allowing a president without respect for character, compassion, decency, science and democracy and one who does.  Any other issues are almost secondary.  That most issues are addressed if you actually listen to what they are saying is almost a bonus.  If you don’t recognize that, you have not got a feel for this election.

***

At a worldwide level, there was a division of wealth.  Much of it was a result of colonialism.  The mother countries attempted to maintain a monopoly on manufacturing while holding the colonies as captive sources of raw materials and captive markets.  The result was a large division of wealth.  The US may not have officially held colonies, but their relationship was similar.  War was still a racket.

At the end of World War II the US announced they would forgive Lend Lease debits if colonial powers would renounce the ability to close ports.  This practically killed colonialism.  It did not take a lot of time for the death of colonialism to become official in the west.  It did not end the division of wealth.  It just left the US to live through a golden time when their intact manufacturing reigned.

Eventually globalism became a big deal.  The elites could make more profit doing manufacturing without labor unions, benefits, environmental regulations and expensive labor.  They donated enough campaign finance money to  take a lot of jobs abroad.  This helped the elites make profits, the former colonies to pick up manufacturing jobs, at the cost of mucking up the former mother country’s and the US’s working class.

In hindsight, this bribing of the politicians by the elites at the expense of the people who voted for them seems inevitable.  The elites and politicians were going to find a way to profit.  Make the division of wealth ever bigger.  It didn’t matter if they had the government’s blessing or no, but I don’t blame it on any particular party.  Yes, the Republicans are generally the more tainted by an elitist loyalty.  In this case, the Democrats were not far behind.

But one effect was to lessen the international division of wealth.  The manufacturing jobs were spread more evenly.  However, the elites benefitted disproportionally.

One of the few pluses of COVID is pointing out the need to build essential equipment such as ventilators and PPE at home.  We are likely to see some jobs coming back.

But while the US distinctly lost due to globalism, I can’t cry about it.  The jobs got better distributed.  However these jobs if the elites get their way will go to the cheapest workers, with with the least benefits, with the weakest unions, causing the most pollution.  The US wants some of those jobs back.  They might set tariffs so the elites profit less from exploiting the third world workers.  This might change.

But the Republicans are as much at fault as the Democrats in the sending of jobs abroad.

***

Human rights tyranny?  I know that some racist conservatives have trouble treating minorities and poor well.  Human rights tyranny seems like an excuse for their hateful selfish behavior, pretty much an oxymoron.  I count equality and human rights as two of three legs of the arrow of progress.  To the extent that some conservatives want supremacy and cruelty to prevail, they are fighting for the wrong thing and doomed to see their mistaken values rejected and disappear.  I can make prophesies.  I can point out how prior 4Ts have gone.  At this point, though, it seems more effective to let reality hit you over the head.  You are committed to your immoral and evil values, and will get your comeuppance in time.

I am reminded of the wizard in The Last Unicorn, warning the villain that he had let his doom walk in the front door.  It was not the wizard's doing.  He merely foretold.  I feel much the same way.

***

UN tyranny?  As I have not noticed it, I won’t comment on your paranoia.
(08-22-2020, 02:33 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

I see people using race or racism to their advantage here every day. You don't see it? What the hell is wrong with your eyes? We are getting so close race wise that whites will be able to sue minorities for being racist or discrimination. You are on the side that's been getting away with all kinds of shit for years. Well, that time is nearing its end how it ends is going to be left to people like you and your ability to see through racial nonsense vs enabling the racial nonsense that we see today. Like I've said, I'll go along with feeding flaming liberals like you to them on a silver plate.
(08-23-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-22-2020, 02:33 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

I see people using race or racism to their advantage here every day. You don't see it? What the hell is wrong with your eyes? We are getting so close race wise that whites will be able to sue minorities for being racist or discrimination. You are on the side that's been getting away with all kinds of shit for years. Well, that time is nearing its end how it ends is going to be left to people like you and your ability to see through racial nonsense vs enabling the racial nonsense that we see today. Like I've said, I'll go along with feeding flaming liberals  like you to them on a silver plate.

Politics is a coalition affair. Don't you know that? If Democrats want to win, they must serve their core supporters. Blacks for example vote Democratic in the 90% range. You expect Democrats to abandon them? You don't understand politics at all, then.

If you resent and oppose that, and therefore vote white identity politics e.g. Donald Trump, then who is using race and racism?

"all kinds of shit for years" Reminds me of what Obama said that the Republicans have been giving us all kinds of crazy for years.
(08-23-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-22-2020, 02:33 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

I see people using race or racism to their advantage here every day. You don't see it? What the hell is wrong with your eyes? We are getting so close race wise that whites will be able to sue minorities for being racist or discrimination. You are on the side that's been getting away with all kinds of (vulgarity deleted)  for years. Well, that time is nearing its end how it ends is going to be left to people like you and your ability to see through racial nonsense vs enabling the racial nonsense that we see today. Like I've said, I'll go along with feeding flaming liberals  like you to them on a silver plate.

Maybe if Donald Trump didn't offer bigoted statements with the expectation of getting away with them he would be doing far better in this election... perhaps even winning. Ordinarily an incumbent has an advantage in just about any election barring a catastrophe or scandal. OK, maybe he should have taken firmer and more decisive action against SARS-2/COVID-19.

Yes... we liberals are enemies of a population... of a dangerous respiratory virus that has already killed 180,000 people in America and shows no signs of slowing  down. But so are many conservatives.
(08-23-2020, 05:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-23-2020, 05:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-22-2020, 02:33 PM)TnT Wrote: [ -> ]There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

I see people using race or racism to their advantage here every day. You don't see it? What the hell is wrong with your eyes? We are getting so close race wise that whites will be able to sue minorities for being racist or discrimination. You are on the side that's been getting away with all kinds of shit for years. Well, that time is nearing its end how it ends is going to be left to people like you and your ability to see through racial nonsense vs enabling the racial nonsense that we see today. Like I've said, I'll go along with feeding flaming liberals  like you to them on a silver plate.

Politics is a coalition affair. Don't you know that? If Democrats want to win, they must serve their core supporters. Blacks for example vote Democratic in the 90% range. You expect Democrats to abandon them? You don't understand politics at all, then.

If you resent and oppose that, and therefore vote white identity politics e.g. Donald Trump, then who is using race and racism?

"all kinds of shit for years" Reminds me of what Obama said that the Republicans have been giving us all kinds of crazy for years.
I don't expect the Democrats to let go of racism or racial bias because as I've said, they're still to valuable to them politically these days. We have to many Democrats sitting in Congress making a very good living (getting wealthier) off being black or a minority woman or whatever else these days.
(08-23-2020, 05:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]If you resent and oppose that, and therefore vote white identity politics e.g. Donald Trump, then who is using race and racism?
I HOPE TNT CAN SEE THIS AND COME TO TERMS WITH BEING DEFEATED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER DUE TO POLITICAL ASSOCIATION WITH THIS KIND OF RACIAL NONSENSE.