(04-14-2020, 02:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]My own opinion is that the Zoomers are more than likely going to be a centrist generation. They won't be left wing as that is the established culture and the kids obviously are going to rebel. But they won't be full on alt right either. However expect with coming problems, this generation might be slightly tinted towards something alt rightish. So I'm guessing a sort of centre right leaning for the majority with a hey, your gay, that's cool, just don't shove your culture at me bra type of mindset.
ha ha; the "established culture" is as right wing as can be. The Establishment is rich tycoons who care not a fig for the well-being of young people. They will feel this just as Millennials do. They ARE Millennials, after all, at least those born up to 2003. And coming problems? There's no problem greater than climate change, and that requires government action that liberals advocate. Yes, Greta is typical Zoomer. And being ethnically diverse, they certainly aren't going to see the "coming problems" as too many people of color in their midst, as you seem to do Mr. Isoko.
Eric,
First of all, the establishment in the West IS left wing in terms of culture. They favour LGBTQ culture (the NSA happily had a rainbow flag on their building to celebrate gay rights), open borders, obviously green politics, the liberal soft culture and other leftist extremes coated in a global form of capitalism. It is very left wing. Donald Trump is an out of place nail in the coffin that cannot get anything done due to the established culture that has been embedded in the West since the 60s. If you want left wing, the West is it and the average Joe is getting fed up of the propaganda, hence why there is growing support for right wing parties.
Now Russia on the other hand has an established right wing culture. Education in schools is centred around remembering the war and loving the motherland. Gay marriage is forbidden. The borders are closed and immigration is restricted to mainly guest workers and people who can actually benefit the country. If you want right wing, Russia is it.
Now as for Greta Thunberg, she is unfortunately an elitist puppet. Not many in Sweden actually like her as she is the child of very wealthy parents with important connections. She is a celebrity of the elite puppet masters who are using the global warming problem for their own political agendas.
As for ethnic diversity, where did I say I oppose it? I merely stated in the other chat that if you let in millions of low IQ people regardless of what race or colour they are, you are going to have huge problems. How is that being in opposition to ethnic diversity?
I will tell you what the problem is. You see anyone who criticises mass immigration as some sort of white nationalist when in reality to oppose mass immigration is actually a sensible thing to do. It actually economically makes sense and does not impose upon people's quality of life.
Would you please stop accusing me? Or are we all crazy racists that want to join the KKK because we dare say what is clearly the obvious?
I mean why are you obsessed with racial diversity? Are you a racist? It is often said that people who keep talking about something excessively really are denying their true selves...
How can we be sure, Eric? Just how can we be sure?
(04-14-2020, 02:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]My own opinion is that the Zoomers are more than likely going to be a centrist generation. They won't be left wing as that is the established culture and the kids obviously are going to rebel. But they won't be full on alt right either. However expect with coming problems, this generation might be slightly tinted towards something alt rightish. So I'm guessing a sort of centre right leaning for the majority with a hey, your gay, that's cool, just don't shove your culture at me bra type of mindset.
The alt-right is mostly a gen X thing. You overestimate the influence of certain online contrarians. See some of comments by Camz.
Artists are not supposed to rebel until they have a midlife crisis
What worries me more is the growing abandonment of civilized values in favour of barbarism, both on the right and the left. Identity politics replaces individual responsibility. Futurist aims are considered unfashionable and nostalgia is growing.
Blazkovitz,
No I'm not overestimating the alt right. As an actual movement, the alt right died in Charlottesville and most of the prominent people have disappeared. However, what I have noticed people getting behind is more centre right ideas such as limiting immigration and abandonment of the propagandistic LGBTQ culture.
To be honest, the future belongs to the centrist and they come in either a left flavour or right flavour. But centrism will be the future, that much is certain.
As for the traditional generations definition, I don't believe the traditional format is intact. I believe we had a generational delay and it's the Zoomers who will be the hero generation and the millennials play very much the role of the nomad. It's still up for debate but I see the pattern.
Also do not think artist generations have to be left wing. They can be right wing or even centrist. Alot of the art in the 19th century for example was right wing. It all depends on the mood of the time.
But the dreams of the left are pretty much dead now so whatever art will be in the future will be of a different nature.
(04-15-2020, 11:40 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]… To be honest, the future belongs to the centrist and they come in either a left flavour or right flavour. But centrism will be the future, that much is certain...
Given an adequately long time line, that's always true. In the shorter term, centrism is stagnation, and stagnation is death by other means. So to get there, you first must create change, which never comes from the center. Change, especially rapid change, creates societal ripples that trigger tensions. The centrist role is quieting the ripples. But that comes in the 1T, not now.
(04-15-2020, 11:32 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020, 02:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]My own opinion is that the Zoomers are more than likely going to be a centrist generation. They won't be left wing as that is the established culture and the kids obviously are going to rebel. But they won't be full on alt right either. However expect with coming problems, this generation might be slightly tinted towards something alt rightish. So I'm guessing a sort of centre right leaning for the majority with a hey, your gay, that's cool, just don't shove your culture at me bra type of mindset.
The alt-right is mostly a gen X thing. You overestimate the influence of certain online contrarians. See some of comments by Camz.
Artists are not supposed to rebel until they have a midlife crisis
What worries me more is the growing abandonment of civilized values in favour of barbarism, both on the right and the left. Identity politics replaces individual responsibility. Futurist aims are considered unfashionable and nostalgia is growing.
I think it seems more like a Gen X and older Millennial thing.
The only Gen Zers I could think of that are alt-right are Nick Fuentes, Thomas Rousseau, Jaden McNeil (one of Fuentes' groupies), Naomi Seibt (probably), and some of those mass shooters from last year like John Earnest.
I'm not including those from the r/GenZ brigade from last year and those from r/zoomerright because I am not really sure what their ages are.
I agree with your last paragraph for sure.
I think it ultimately depends on where you live. In the UK for example, I'd say the Zoomer men tend to be silently more to the alt lite with flavourings of the alt right. There was anger at the Muslim grooming gangs for example in this cohort.
In France, I know that the majority of young people, particularly young men, actually supported Marine Le Pen where as the older generation voted for Macron because of fears of their pensions. Apart from Sweden, the vast majority of young men (and I use men) in Europe tend to be alt right inclined, particularly in places like Italy, Greece, even the Netherlands to some extent. Germany still is reeling from the Nazi era so nothing really there.
As for Eastern Europe, they are patriotic to the core and downright nationalist. As for Russia? I'd say the entire population is literally alt right.
I think it's more America and to a certain extent Britain where there is more liberal points of view. But that is normal considering these countries really did help to push the enlightenment at home and abroad. Liberalism has become more of an Anglo thing.
(04-16-2020, 01:04 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]I think it ultimately depends on where you live. In the UK for example, I'd say the Zoomer men tend to be silently more to the alt lite with flavourings of the alt right. There was anger at the Muslim grooming gangs for example in this cohort.
In France, I know that the majority of young people, particularly young men, actually supported Marine Le Pen where as the older generation voted for Macron because of fears of their pensions. Apart from Sweden, the vast majority of young men (and I use men) in Europe tend to be alt right inclined, particularly in places like Italy, Greece, even the Netherlands to some extent. Germany still is reeling from the Nazi era so nothing really there.
As for Eastern Europe, they are patriotic to the core and downright nationalist. As for Russia? I'd say the entire population is literally alt right.
I think it's more America and to a certain extent Britain where there is more liberal points of view. But that is normal considering these countries really did help to push the enlightenment at home and abroad. Liberalism has become more of an Anglo thing.
I think, in general, males are more right-wing and females are more left-wing, regardless of generation.
Most fringe right groups online and in real life seem to be at least 80% male, as well.
Yeah I would say that is the truth Ghost.
Although I do know Russian women tend to be quite patriotic and right wing, even more then the men at times... descendants of the Scythians lol.
(04-09-2020, 04:24 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: [ -> ]Also, what are Homelanders' views on spreading democracy and the War on Terror?
Zoomers seem very democratic and would probably dislike Bush for the War on Terror. As for Homelanders... well, the ones I know pretty much agree to whatever Zoomer-cusp Millennials say... Homelanders here are probably taught to dislike the War on Terror.
After reading Strauss and Howe's works it actually makes a lot of sense why we do this. Artists have always been followers rather than rulers for the most part. If you look at the G.I. and older Silent relationship in the 50s, aside from exceptions like rebels, they seem to get along like friendly pleasant neighbors. At least that's how it looks like to me, I may be super wrong.
Things definitely changed in the Awakening, when Silents chose sides; conservative G.I.s or liberal Boomers. So in the 20...50s(?), a lot of us Homelanders will finally stop listening to everything our great older siblings say. I'm probably gonna be one of them because screw sameness and conformism. But for now, I'll continue clinging to them and giving them all my support, because they deserve it for now. So yeah, I agree with:
Quote:Artists are not supposed to rebel until they have a midlife crisis
(04-09-2020, 04:25 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ] (04-08-2020, 02:05 PM)Camz Wrote: [ -> ]a) The area I live in is VERY progressive, especially with schools pushing this (a few years ago I was shocked to learn racism was a big problem in other parts of the country, I can't even remember a time I've ever experienced it and both of my parents are South American immigrants)
You learned from your school, or you learned from experiencing it?
When school finally shoved progressivism down our throats (a 6th-grade event), I was actually super annoyed by it and hated it, because I was in that dumb anti-SJW Tumblr phase. At least then I was already aware that racism bad and gays are good and exist. My middle school social studies teachers were passionate about social justice, so I guess I learned from them and the internet mostly. I didn't need teachers telling us equal rights are good because I figured, but they did. I guess I learned from them because there was very little discrimination or anything from my experience.
(04-16-2020, 06:11 PM)Camz Wrote: [ -> ] (04-09-2020, 04:24 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: [ -> ]Also, what are Homelanders' views on spreading democracy and the War on Terror?
Zoomers seem very democratic and would probably dislike Bush for the War on Terror. As for Homelanders... well, the ones I know pretty much agree to whatever Zoomer-cusp Millennials say... Homelanders here are probably taught to dislike the War on Terror.
After reading Strauss and Howe's works it actually makes a lot of sense why we do this. Artists have always been followers rather than rulers for the most part. If you look at the G.I. and older Silent relationship in the 50s, aside from exceptions like rebels, they seem to get along like friendly pleasant neighbors. At least that's how it looks like to me, I may be super wrong.
Things definitely changed in the Awakening, when Silents chose sides; conservative G.I.s or liberal Boomers. So in the 20...50s(?), a lot of us Homelanders will finally stop listening to everything our great older siblings say. I'm probably gonna be one of them because screw sameness and conformism. But for now, I'll continue clinging to them and giving them all my support, because they deserve it for now. So yeah, I agree with:
Quote:Artists are not supposed to rebel until they have a midlife crisis
The last time around saw the divorce rate soar.
(04-16-2020, 06:19 PM)Camz Wrote: [ -> ] (04-09-2020, 04:25 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ] (04-08-2020, 02:05 PM)Camz Wrote: [ -> ]a) The area I live in is VERY progressive, especially with schools pushing this (a few years ago I was shocked to learn racism was a big problem in other parts of the country, I can't even remember a time I've ever experienced it and both of my parents are South American immigrants)
You learned from your school, or you learned from experiencing it?
When school finally shoved progressivism down our throats (a 6th-grade event), I was actually super annoyed by it and hated it, because I was in that dumb anti-SJW Tumblr phase. At least then I was already aware that racism bad and gays are good and exist. My middle school social studies teachers were passionate about social justice, so I guess I learned from them and the internet mostly. I didn't need teachers telling us equal rights are good because I figured, but they did. I guess I learned from them because there was very little discrimination or anything from my experience.
Okay. Then what you actually learned was that your teachers wanted you to believe that racism was a big problem in other parts of the country, not that it necessarily actually was. It actually was a big problem in the 1960s and 1970s, but I don't think it is today, though I'd be open to contrary evidence.
And, "gays are good"? No more so than anyone else on average, but if the schools are teaching that being gay automatically makes a person good, that might explain a lot about current attitudes.
(04-15-2020, 11:40 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]But the dreams of the left are pretty much dead now so whatever art will be in the future will be of a different nature.
Sure! We need to explore new space age philosophies, Industrial Age concepts won't be relevant to Interplanetary Age mindset for the same reason medieval concepts were irrelevant in the Industrial Age.
Isoko Wrote:Liberalism has become more of an Anglo thing.
Yet Spain is the most culturally liberal country in the world. I guess it's a backlash after centuries of the Inquisition.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013/...sexuality/
Quote:As for Eastern Europe, they are patriotic to the core and downright nationalist. As for Russia? I'd say the entire population is literally alt right.
Yet you said young Russians want something like America of the 1990s.
Camz Wrote:Zoomers seem very democratic and would probably dislike Bush for the War on Terror
I thought being a democracy enthusiast results in support for the WoT... it did in my case.
Blazkovitz,
P. 1 To be honest, I am sceptic that we will see mass space exploration anytime soon. I would say the low hanging fruits have already been picked. It will happen eventually with its art but it'll take a few centuries.
I'd say the art and cultural themes for the next 2T are going to be more of a conservative family friendly nature rather then trying to defy all odds by culturally shocks the left was successful at doing in the past.
P. 2 Actually I mean as a population that the Anglos are tradiontally more liberal. However in Spain's case it's more a legacy of Franco and rebellion. But I have noticed the growth of the right wing there so I think give it another decade or so...
P. 3 Young Russians are complex. On the one hand they are not so keen on Western social values. On the other hand, they want the economics of the West in the 1990s. I think when it comes to the young in Russia, they will get more money from the government eventually and sort of settle down into soft conservative generation that is primarily centre right in nature.
(04-17-2020, 01:53 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: [ -> ]Yet you said young Russians want something like America of the 1990s.
They think that's what they want. They have no idea how the America of the 1990s actually worked.
(04-17-2020, 08:06 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]I'd say the art and cultural themes for the next 2T are going to be more of a conservative family friendly nature rather then trying to defy all odds by culturally shocks the left was successful at doing in the past.
It might be conservative in some sense, but it won't be especially family friendly; in generational conflicts, it's never the old who want to prevent the young from giving them grandchildren, so it's never the young on the side of the families.
Space missions that I have seen proposed:
1. Manned flyby of Venus.
2. Manned Venus orbiter.
3. Manned rendezvous with an Earth approaching asteroid.
4. Manned flyby of Mars.
5. Manned rendezvous with the moons of Mars.
6. Manned landing on Mars.
These proposals are based on existing technology. From analyses I have seen, manned flyby of Venus was possible with a single launch vehicle, either the Soviet Energia booster or the American Saturn 5. The most difficult of the list, the manned Mars landing, would involve the assembly of Mars ship in low Earth orbit using multiple launch vehicles.
Going farther out is harder. More distant goals, which might be embraced by the New Heroes in the early 22nd century.
Warren,
P. 1 Yeah for some of the young, they want their lives to be like on the TV shows they watch from America, not realising what life really was like back then.
However the more smarter cohort tend to be more critical of this wave of thinking and what to build a new Russia that isn't anything like the West.
P. 2 Actually I think there is truth to this but the difference will be family arguments with an older more liberal generation saying you should live life to the fullest and a new younger generation who want to have kids, maybe farm and stay at home or something.
Sounds idealistic I know but with the coming job shortages, I think there is going to be a huge revival on family values and the concept of the stay at home parent 20 -30 years in the future. Of course it won't be completely conservative like women back to the kitchen but more whoever is best at being the home maker, the man or the woman.
Tim - I think that actual major space exploration and colonisation is along way off. Centuries down the line, maybe even thousands of years before we can truly get going.
I think we will be stuck on Terra Firma for a very long time. I think that within another century or two, we are going to slowly devolve back into some sort of archeofuturistic society where you have the masses of people farming outside technologically advanced cities due to a decline in resources.
I think the middle class will eventually die out as a concept or take a huge back seat to what was once the ye olde American dream. Will there be space travel and colonisation? Eventually but it will take us along time to get there unless we get some friendly outside help or a rare genius comes along.
(04-17-2020, 08:53 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: [ -> ]Space missions that I have seen proposed:
1. Manned flyby of Venus.
2. Manned Venus orbiter.
3. Manned rendezvous with an Earth approaching asteroid.
4. Manned flyby of Mars.
5. Manned rendezvous with the moons of Mars.
6. Manned landing on Mars.
These proposals are based on existing technology. From analyses I have seen, manned flyby of Venus was possible with a single launch vehicle, either the Soviet Energia booster or the American Saturn 5. The most difficult of the list, the manned Mars landing, would involve the assembly of Mars ship in low Earth orbit using multiple launch vehicles.
Going farther out is harder. More distant goals, which might be embraced by the New Heroes in the early 22nd century.
I agree. Orbital and Martian settlement will probably start during the 2T and 3T as intentional communities, created by groups wanting radical freedom from Earth establishment(s).
Warren Dew Wrote: (04-17-2020, 08:06 AM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]I'd say the art and cultural themes for the next 2T are going to be more of a conservative family friendly nature rather then trying to defy all odds by culturally shocks the left was successful at doing in the past.
It might be conservative in some sense, but it won't be especially family friendly; in generational conflicts, it's never the old who want to prevent the young from giving them grandchildren, so it's never the young on the side of the families.
It might be ascetic, anti-sexual, as a rebellion against Millennial techno-hedonism. Internet porn is already reviled by both Christians and feminists, and it's very likely someday they will be a crackdown against it. But family is a Civic value. From a Prophetic perspective, the opposite of a slut is not a stay at home mother, but a nun.