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(02-02-2021, 12:48 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-02-2021, 12:39 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-01-2021, 11:48 AM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

"a person whose valid warnings or concerns are disbelieved by others." Who is Cassandra depends on your views. People like me have been warning against free-market economics and the moral minority for well over 40 years.

To people like me, warning of further partisan division now is like warning about a storm that has already come and flooded the city. Why should I care? The only point is who is going to win.

I agree, lots of Republican and Republican-leaning voters supported Trump as a matter of course because he pledged to support their favorite policies, like pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-tax, anti-immigrant, pro-business etc. Racism is a hidden factor in much of this, as well as religious conservatism, but it's not the only reason people voted for Trump. It just stirred up a lot of hate that was hidden before. People like me on the Left called him a fake president, because he was unqualified for the job, and we wondered why that was not a factor in peoples' votes. "Jury-rigging the system" on the Democrats' part consisted of efforts, only somewhat successful, to end the jury-rigging the Republicans and our founding fathers had done, especially voter suppression laws, voter-roll purges, poll closings in Democratic-voting areas and so on.

The Democrats did come back with a stronger party and a better candidate in 2020. Biden won over 7 million more votes than Trump, and still barely won the White House because of the outdated electoral college that favors small and former slave states. If the Democrats don't choose Harris to run in 2024, they should continue to get stronger, since they are interested in real problems, and since the country is becoming more diverse and less wedded to ancient ideologies. If Republicans cling to Trump they will lose ground and perhaps disappear. If the Democrats continue to give-in to or adopt Republican policies, they will continue to appear weak and ineffective and will also lose ground, and so will the nation. What needs to happen is that more people need to learn that Democratic Party policies work and are better than the Republican Party policies.

Trump blatantly appealed to racism throughout his 5-year political career, and did not care about police shootings more than he did about using supposed riots to stoke his vote. That helped his chances to win, and it also further divided the nation much more than correctly attributing his support in part to racism would.

Eric, I kinda like you, but sometimes you illustrate to me just how bat sh*t insane and immersed in a narrative disconnected from reality the modern left has become, at least when compared to those I admired in my youth.  Some of the statements you casually throw out as Truth™ are exactly why I worry about the fate of dissenters in the remaining parts of the 4T and just  how totalitarian the 1T will be.

Cassandra: I think you are projecting. You are afraid of what the Left in power might do, because it's what the Right-wing in power does. Who did what on January 6th? Who supports denying the results of a free and fair election so that the current president can just stay in power regardless of the results? Why do you rail against what the Left does, and not against what Trump and his Cult do?
(02-02-2021, 12:48 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]Eric, I kinda like you, but sometimes you illustrate to me just how bat sh*t insane and immersed in a narrative disconnected from reality the modern left has become, at least when compared to those I admired in my youth.  Some of the statements you casually throw out as Truth™ are exactly why I worry about the fate of dissenters in the remaining parts of the 4T and just  how totalitarian the 1T will be.

I wouldn't say 1Ts / highs tend to be totalitarian. Still, they tend to force everyone to go along with how the recent crisis was solved. If taxation without representation was an issue, get rid of it. If Hitler presented a problem, invent containment. Don't let expanding military autocratic powers get started. The conservative values of the prior unravelling that got stepped on in the crisis tend to be stepped on again in the high.

I could see how a conservative might see this as totalitarian, but it is more like enforcing the solutions that worked.
Quinnipiac just had a poll in which it did not ask about approval of Donald Trump. It might be appropriate to retire this thread... to be revived only if there is another poll involving approval or favorability of Donald Trump.
(02-03-2021, 02:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Cassandra: I think you are projecting. You are afraid of what the Left in power might do, because it's what the Right-wing in power does. Who did what on January 6th? Who supports denying the results of a free and fair election so that the current president can just stay in power regardless of the results? Why do you rail against what the Left does, and not against what Trump and his Cult do?

I am currently afraid of what the Left in power might do because:

1.  They are in power
2.  They are supported by all institutions that normally act as a check on that power
3.  They are the ones putting forth illiberal policies that threaten individual liberty with almost zero pushback or publicization
4.  They are the ones bringing the full power of the police state and judicial system to bear on those who are politically unfavored while excusing the same behavior from their allies with, again, zero pushback and little publicization.
5.  See arguments 1-4 and repeat until one of those conditions stops.

If the same configuration of events occurred for Trump, I would be similarly apprehensive of what could happen.  However, at almost no point in his presidency was even one achieved, except possibly #1 during the first 2 years.

In general, I believe that the American system (when working properly) is strong enough to withstand an individual or sub-group with bad ideas or bad intentions.  Seeing as how I think 90% of politicians at the federal level are either narcissists or sociopaths (or both), I kind of have to believe that.  I get concerned when both ALL the governmental and non-governmental seats of power are marching to the same beat AND there aren't even internal checks on those bad ideas.

I'm hoping points #3 and 4 subside soon, maybe when the press stops it's honeymoon phase and lets go of it's desire for vengeance they can examine the potential ramifications of things like a 'War on Domestic Terror' that takes it's lessons from Afghanistan.  Or, maybe, it won't and we'll get articles justifying the drone strikes on some random WV wedding because it got a guy who once posted in favor of the Proud Boys.
(02-04-2021, 02:57 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-03-2021, 02:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Cassandra: I think you are projecting. You are afraid of what the Left in power might do, because it's what the Right-wing in power does. Who did what on January 6th? Who supports denying the results of a free and fair election so that the current president can just stay in power regardless of the results? Why do you rail against what the Left does, and not against what Trump and his Cult do?

I am currently afraid of what the Left in power might do because:

1.  They are in power
2.  They are supported by all institutions that normally act as a check on that power
3.  They are the ones putting forth illiberal policies that threaten individual liberty with almost zero pushback or publicization
4.  They are the ones bringing the full power of the police state and judicial system to bear on those who are politically unfavored while excusing the same behavior from their allies with, again, zero pushback and little publicization.
5.  See arguments 1-4 and repeat until one of those conditions stops.

You weren't so concerned about what Trump was doing recently, like throwing kids in cages to die.

1. The Left's power is limited. They have the senate by 1 vote and still have the filibuster. The have the House by only 11 votes.
2. The right-wing has the supreme court and many federal courts.
3. Most Democratic policies are not ill-liberal, while Republicans continue with voter suppression. Republicans are against democracy.
4. The Feds, starting even before Biden took over, are arresting the thugs who attacked us. I hope they put them in jail and throw away the key. Creeps like Taylor-Greene and Loebert cannot be unfavored enough to suit me. Claiming that David Hogg is an actor and that the gun massacres were staged is way beyond the pale, let alone threatening the life of Pelosi. Put them in jail.
5. Stop repeating fascist arguments.

Quote:If the same configuration of events occurred for Trump, I would be similarly apprehensive of what could happen.  However, at almost no point in his presidency was even one achieved, except possibly #1 during the first 2 years.

What Trump did in ignoring subpoenas and asking the AG to be his personal attorney and fire people for enforcing the law and so much more was WAY beyond anything the Left might do. You were not apprehensive about what Trump did, such as tell police to be rough, and organize and incite a violent attack on the Capitol after refusing to accept a valid election defeat, or pepper spray peaceful demonstrators in order to prepare the way for a foto op. I like what conservative author George Will said about Trump, that his voters wanted a bull in the China cabinet, and now he has cracked up so much crockery that he has totally discredited himself.

Quote:In general, I believe that the American system (when working properly) is strong enough to withstand an individual or sub-group with bad ideas or bad intentions.  Seeing as how I think 90% of politicians at the federal level are either narcissists or sociopaths (or both), I kind of have to believe that.  I get concerned when both ALL the governmental and non-governmental seats of power are marching to the same beat AND there aren't even internal checks on those bad ideas.

I'm hoping points #3 and 4 subside soon, maybe when the press stops it's honeymoon phase and lets go of it's desire for vengeance they can examine the potential ramifications of things like a 'War on Domestic Terror' that takes it's lessons from Afghanistan.  Or, maybe, it won't and we'll get articles justifying the drone strikes on some random WV wedding because it got a guy who once posted in favor of the Proud Boys.

Saying that 90% of politicians are sociopaths is unfair. Most are doing good public service, even if some of them may support bad policies. Doing politics is an honorable profession, and it harms our republic to constantly knock them unfairly. We need to get those terrorists in jail. I am not at all concerned yet about a drone strike; it won't happen unless the right-wing mounts an effective violent rebellion; then Katy bar the door on the liberal government's response, and using whatever valid weapons of war they do will be fine with me. Meanwhile bravo to Biden for reversing the horrible Trump policies. I approve of everything he has done so far. He has not turned the country to the left. He has merely restored sanity.

I disagree with you a lot, but Bob Butler says we need some more red Republican views on the new facebook forum. Feel free to join. It is getting lots of new members.
(02-04-2021, 02:10 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Quinnipiac just had a poll in which it did not ask about approval of Donald Trump. It might be appropriate to retire this thread... to be revived only if there is another poll involving approval or favorability of Donald Trump.

It will fade down the list soon. Meanwhile it may have important posts on it, such as my replies to mamabug.
(02-04-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with you a lot, but Bob Butler says we need some more red Republican views on the new facebook forum. Feel free to join. It is getting lots of new members.

How many times do I need to say I'm not a Republican?  I was a card-carrying ACLU member who marched against US involvement in Nicaragua and was in the Peace and Justice club of my high school.  I haven't changed any of those principles, the parties have changed around me.  Just because I am objective enough about Team Blue to not buy everything they are selling doesn't make me 'Red'.  I wasn't on these boards during the Trump era so you have no idea how I would or would not have railed against any of his policies.  

It may come as a surprise given the media articles, but he isn't President anymore and has no power when it comes to setting policy.  I am focusing on the people who do and the trends I am seeing.  It's kind of like you asking me 'what about Hoover' when I'm decrying FDR putting American citizens into camps.
(02-04-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]You weren't so concerned about what Trump was doing recently, like throwing kids in cages to die.

1. The Left's power is limited. They have the senate by 1 vote and still have the filibuster. The have the House by only 11 votes.
2. The right-wing has the supreme court and many federal courts.
3. Most Democratic policies are not ill-liberal, while Republicans continue with voter suppression. Republicans are against democracy.
4. The Feds, starting even before Biden took over, are arresting the thugs who attacked us. I hope they put them in jail and throw away the key. Creeps like Taylor-Greene and Loebert cannot be unfavored enough to suit me. Claiming that David Hogg is an actor and that the gun massacres were staged is way beyond the pale, let alone threatening the life of Pelosi. Put them in jail.
5. Stop repeating fascist arguments.

Again, I was not on here until about a month ago - long after it was clear what the outcome of the election was.  How much I was or was not concerned about immigration policies under any President prior to this one isn't something you can infer without evidence.  I'd be happy to discuss everything I think is wrong with the immigration policies from both parties if a thread on it spins up.  Please don't project beliefs onto me, especially in an impugning manner.

1.  The power is limited only if they are not acting in unity.  It won't be until actual legislation is proposed and voted on that it will be known how much consensus there is for some of the scarier ideas floating out there, until then this remains a point of concern.  It also won't be until the GOP actually uses the filibuster for something the DNC wants that we will know if it is going to hold.  I figure I'll know sometime within the next three months whether or not my worries are unfounded.

2. I don't trust the Supreme Court on civil liberty issues.  Roberts *will* cave if it means protecting the institution, he's already proven that; Kavanaugh and Barrett are establishment with poor records on upholding the rights of the little guy against the state; Breyer, Sotomayor, Thomas, and Alito are hit and miss depending on the rights involved and how political the issue is; Gorsuch I don't always agree with but his reasoning is usually pretty solid and he isn't afraid to break across ideological lines; and Kagan is completely useless.  Again, though, it all comes down to point #1 - if the DNC is unified enough around an agenda then they can pull another 'nuclear option.'

3.  Again, not sure if you are deep in cognitive dissonance or are legitimately unaware of the actions and agenda of what is increasingly becoming mainstream left-wing thought.  I can point to at least three things being seriously discussed on the left in the last week alone that are illiberal bordering on dystopian.  Beyond the actual proposals, though, is the general feeling of animosity and desire to punish coming from those who, ostensibly, won.  That is never a good sign in the victors regardless of whether those feelings may be justified - just ask the women of East Berlin in 1945.

4.   The law unevenly applied is not justice.  Once upon a time the Left believed that.

5.  Worrying that a unified political and social elite might infringe upon the civil liberties of it's opponents is a fascist argument?   I guess in a world where silence is violence and violence is mostly peaceful that almost makes sense.
(02-04-2021, 02:57 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-03-2021, 02:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Cassandra: I think you are projecting. You are afraid of what the Left in power might do, because it's what the Right-wing in power does. Who did what on January 6th? Who supports denying the results of a free and fair election so that the current president can just stay in power regardless of the results? Why do you rail against what the Left does, and not against what Trump and his Cult do?

I am currently afraid of what the Left in power might do because:

1.  They are in power
2.  They are supported by all institutions that normally act as a check on that power
3.  They are the ones putting forth illiberal policies that threaten individual liberty with almost zero pushback or publicization
4.  They are the ones bringing the full power of the police state and judicial system to bear on those who are politically unfavored while excusing the same behavior from their allies with, again, zero pushback and little publicization.
5.  See arguments 1-4 and repeat until one of those conditions stops.

If the same configuration of events occurred for Trump, I would be similarly apprehensive of what could happen.  However, at almost no point in his presidency was even one achieved, except possibly #1 during the first 2 years.

In general, I believe that the American system (when working properly) is strong enough to withstand an individual or sub-group with bad ideas or bad intentions.  Seeing as how I think 90% of politicians at the federal level are either narcissists or sociopaths (or both), I kind of have to believe that.  I get concerned when both ALL the governmental and non-governmental seats of power are marching to the same beat AND there aren't even internal checks on those bad ideas.

I'm hoping points #3 and 4 subside soon, maybe when the press stops it's honeymoon phase and lets go of it's desire for vengeance they can examine the potential ramifications of things like a 'War on Domestic Terror' that takes it's lessons from Afghanistan.  Or, maybe, it won't and we'll get articles justifying the drone strikes on some random WV wedding because it got a guy who once posted in favor of the Proud Boys.
I doubt the US military would take part in such an action these days. It's probably the only big government entity along with the Supreme Court that's keeping this country together right now.
(02-04-2021, 06:03 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]1.  The power is limited only if they are not acting in unity.  It won't be until actual legislation is proposed and voted on that it will be known how much consensus there is for some of the scarier ideas floating out there, until then this remains a point of concern.  It also won't be until the GOP actually uses the filibuster for something the DNC wants that we will know if it is going to hold.  I figure I'll know sometime within the next three months whether or not my worries are unfounded.

Accept the inconvenient fact that the filibuster is already a zombie, eating brains and corrupting the process of governing.  It was always a segregationist tool.  Now it's used for everything. We're eyeball deep in several interlocking crises.  Obdurate obstructionism will not be tolerated much longer.

mamabug Wrote:2. I don't trust the Supreme Court on civil liberty issues.  Roberts *will* cave if it means protecting the institution, he's already proven that; Kavanaugh and Barrett are establishment with poor records on upholding the rights of the little guy against the state; Breyer, Sotomayor, Thomas, and Alito are hit and miss depending on the rights involved and how political the issue is; Gorsuch I don't always agree with but his reasoning is usually pretty solid and he isn't afraid to break across ideological lines; and Kagan is completely useless.  Again, though, it all comes down to point #1 - if the DNC is unified enough around an agenda then they can pull another 'nuclear option.'

The country has been ungovernable for decades -- especially the last 10 years or so.  The action in the streets is a direct reflection of how little power the government has been able to bring to bear.  Trump was and is still popular because he simply ignored precedent and the law and did as he pleased.  There is a hunger for that.  So you better adjust to the emerging reality that we're going to have a much more intrusive government, because chaos is not an option. If you chose to stand for something that will not be in vogue again until the 2T, feel free to be a contrarian.  Been there; done that.

mamabug Wrote:3.  Again, not sure if you are deep in cognitive dissonance or are legitimately unaware of the actions and agenda of what is increasingly becoming mainstream left-wing thought.  I can point to at least three things being seriously discussed on the left in the last week alone that are illiberal bordering on dystopian.  Beyond the actual proposals, though, is the general feeling of animosity and desire to punish coming from those who, ostensibly, won.  That is never a good sign in the victors regardless of whether those feelings may be justified - just ask the women of East Berlin in 1945.

Really?  There has not been a Progressive government able to make any changes to speak about since Lyndon Johnson.  Is the left angry?  You bet!  The Dems have the voters but not the power, and they're about tired of being rolled.  Expect change. And it might help to understand the difference between the left and radical left. Even AOC and the Squad understand the limits of government. That doesn't apply to idealists who assume if they think it so it can be.  To misquote Jesus: the wackos have always been with us.  And this is far worse on the right, as the raid on the Capitol more than made clear.

mamabug Wrote:4.   The law unevenly applied is not justice.  Once upon a time the Left believed that.

Unachievable justice isn't justice either.  People of color receive stiffer sentences, less benefit of the doubt (as the prison population more than validates), and that's just the criminal justice system.  If I was black and had to give my son 'the talk' just to keep him safe, I wouldn't think that justice was evenly applied ever in the history of the republic.

mamabug Wrote:5.  Worrying that a unified political and social elite might infringe upon the civil liberties of it's opponents is a fascist argument?   I guess in a world where silence is violence and violence is mostly peaceful that almost makes sense.

Real power can rule without violence.  Real power controls lives at their core level: economics, social standing and access to <insert the 'good' of your choice>.  We've been there for a long time already.
Lyndon Johnson was not particularly progressive himself, and the Great Society is greatly overrated in its influence.
(02-04-2021, 06:03 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]You weren't so concerned about what Trump was doing recently, like throwing kids in cages to die.

1. The Left's power is limited. They have the senate by 1 vote and still have the filibuster. The have the House by only 11 votes.
2. The right-wing has the supreme court and many federal courts.
3. Most Democratic policies are not ill-liberal, while Republicans continue with voter suppression. Republicans are against democracy.
4. The Feds, starting even before Biden took over, are arresting the thugs who attacked us. I hope they put them in jail and throw away the key. Creeps like Taylor-Greene and Loebert cannot be unfavored enough to suit me. Claiming that David Hogg is an actor and that the gun massacres were staged is way beyond the pale, let alone threatening the life of Pelosi. Put them in jail.
5. Stop repeating fascist arguments.

Again, I was not on here until about a month ago - long after it was clear what the outcome of the election was.  How much I was or was not concerned about immigration policies under any President prior to this one isn't something you can infer without evidence.  I'd be happy to discuss everything I think is wrong with the immigration policies from both parties if a thread on it spins up.  Please don't project beliefs onto me, especially in an impugning manner.

OK. You seem a Trump supporter though. Did you support his immigration policies? And note, I am not asking whether you support Obama's policies. Whataboutism does not answer the question.

Quote:1.  The power is limited only if they are not acting in unity.  It won't be until actual legislation is proposed and voted on that it will be known how much consensus there is for some of the scarier ideas floating out there, until then this remains a point of concern.  It also won't be until the GOP actually uses the filibuster for something the DNC wants that we will know if it is going to hold.  I figure I'll know sometime within the next three months whether or not my worries are unfounded.

We have more than enough evidence from their past behavior that Republicans are likely to filibuster almost anything. Are you new to the USA too?

Quote:2. I don't trust the Supreme Court on civil liberty issues.  Roberts *will* cave if it means protecting the institution, he's already proven that; Kavanaugh and Barrett are establishment with poor records on upholding the rights of the little guy against the state; Breyer, Sotomayor, Thomas, and Alito are hit and miss depending on the rights involved and how political the issue is; Gorsuch I don't always agree with but his reasoning is usually pretty solid and he isn't afraid to break across ideological lines; and Kagan is completely useless.  Again, though, it all comes down to point #1 - if the DNC is unified enough around an agenda then they can pull another 'nuclear option.'

It is always the liberal, Democratic appointees that protect the little guy from the institution. Of course we can't depend on the conservatives (Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Barrett, and often Roberts) for that. But you support the institution. You are on its side in your policies, are you not? The DNC is not the Senate, and it will have to pack the Court to overturn its opposition to progressive legislation, which is what protects the little guy from the institution. Protecting the right to discriminate on the basis of race or religion is NOT protecting the little guy from the institution; it is the opposite of that. Conservatives like you frequently get that mixed up. Senator Cruz mixes that up all the time. Quit with conspiracy theories about the DNC. It does not control Democratic voters or politicians; vice-versa.

Quote:3.  Again, not sure if you are deep in cognitive dissonance or are legitimately unaware of the actions and agenda of what is increasingly becoming mainstream left-wing thought.  I can point to at least three things being seriously discussed on the left in the last week alone that are illiberal bordering on dystopian.  Beyond the actual proposals, though, is the general feeling of animosity and desire to punish coming from those who, ostensibly, won.  That is never a good sign in the victors regardless of whether those feelings may be justified - just ask the women of East Berlin in 1945.

You say you can point to three illiberal things from the Left, but you didn't. What Biden and the Democrats are doing now is not punishing; as I said, it is merely restoring sanity. You seem worried about the right to carry and sell confederate flags. I see your point, but am not so worried about that; the confederate flag proclaims white supremacy. I am more worried about THAT. Why aren't you? Why do you not express concern over the deadly mob taking over the Capitol and nullifying democracy? I don't see any posts from you expressing that concern.

Quote:4.   The law unevenly applied is not justice.  Once upon a time the Left believed that.

5.  Worrying that a unified political and social elite might infringe upon the civil liberties of it's opponents is a fascist argument?   I guess in a world where silence is violence and violence is mostly peaceful that almost makes sense.

The civil liberties you worry about being infringed on, are your supposed "right" to infringe on the liberties of others. Just like the "freedom" conservatives extol, is the freedom to exploit, infringe-on and repress others through "free enterprise" (their "rights" as bosses). Or the "right" to carry guns to threaten the safety of others.
(02-04-2021, 04:18 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with you a lot, but Bob Butler says we need some more red Republican views on the new facebook forum. Feel free to join. It is getting lots of new members.

How many times do I need to say I'm not a Republican?  I was a card-carrying ACLU member who marched against US involvement in Nicaragua and was in the Peace and Justice club of my high school.  I haven't changed any of those principles, the parties have changed around me.  Just because I am objective enough about Team Blue to not buy everything they are selling doesn't make me 'Red'.  I wasn't on these boards during the Trump era so you have no idea how I would or would not have railed against any of his policies.  

It may come as a surprise given the media articles, but he isn't President anymore and has no power when it comes to setting policy.  I am focusing on the people who do and the trends I am seeing.  It's kind of like you asking me 'what about Hoover' when I'm decrying FDR putting American citizens into camps.

The Parties have not changed much. Trump has taken Republicans further to the right, and has only brought out the simmering bigotry that was there since the sixties, including from the Southern strategy and the Goldwater candidacy.

The Republicans have turned increasingly to the right. As Obama said, they have embraced all kinds of crazy for years. It goes way back. But they are extremists now. Meanwhile, their stonewalling and blocking of all needed legislation for 40 years, and increasingly so, has polarized Democrats on the other side. The result of this stagnation and repression imposed by Republicans is that real problems and concerns have increased. So the activism on the Left has increased too. The 4T is the time of decision. Which side are you on? It seems despite your claims, you have chosen the right-wing. If I am wrong about that, I'd be pleased, but I don't see it from you right now.

Why not support the current actions and proposals of Biden and the Democrats to restore sanity to our government and our country? Why not oppose Trump's attempted coup, and support his conviction over this solid breach of his oath of office?

Trump needs to be prevented from serving in office again, and he needs to be silenced as much as possible lest he stir up more violent mobs. Threatening or inciting assassination of public officials is a crime. Taylor-Greene belongs in jail, not in congress.
The Republican Party has gone from being a mainstream Party with a fascist fringe to being a fascistic Party with a mainstream relic. Nixon miscalculated about the desirability of the white Southern racists in his Party. In 1980, 1984, and 1988 that was good for landslide wins of the Presidency and big gains in the Senate as Dixiecrats joined the Party of Lincoln while holding their nose about Lincoln.

The Republican party used to have genuine liberals like Hugh Scott, Edwin Brooke, George Romney, Mark Hatfield, Jacob Javits, Arlen Specter, Winthrop Rockefeller, and Charles Percy. As late as 1964, Republicans stood behind the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because it was clearly the legislation that enforced the clauses that read:


Quote:Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

within the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments. After all, the GOP was still the Party of Lincoln in the 1960's, and Republicans sought to remind us all of that. 
It seems to have forgotten the heritage that it once had on human rights and civil liberties. The GOP always was the Party of tycoons, executives, and (northern) corporate farmers and ranchers who see class privilege as the highest purpose in human existence -- especially among those who do not enjoy any semblance of class privilege. The GOP did win over the Southern agrarian racists, but at a price of losing the comparatively liberal "Rockefeller Republicans" and the political mainstream. By default the GOP has become increasingly racist, superstitious, and anti-modern. It has adopted a twisted sort of populism, the sort that faults educated people as exploiters, while endorsing a plutocratic agenda that truly exploits and degrades people. The anti-Communist rhetoric of the John Birch Society has become core -- and the definition of Communism is practically anything that fails to exalt pure, dehumanized plutocracy if it isn't overt fascism.
(02-05-2021, 02:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The Parties have not changed much. Trump has taken Republicans further to the right, and has only brought out the simmering bigotry that was there since the sixties, including from the Southern strategy and the Goldwater candidacy.

The Republicans have turned increasingly to the right. As Obama said, they have embraced all kinds of crazy for years. It goes way back. But they are extremists now. Meanwhile, their stonewalling and blocking of all needed legislation for 40 years, and increasingly so, has polarized Democrats on the other side. The result of this stagnation and repression imposed by Republicans is that real problems and concerns have increased. So the activism on the Left has increased too. The 4T is the time of decision. Which side are you on? It seems despite your claims, you have chosen the right-wing. If I am wrong about that, I'd be pleased, but I don't see it from you right now.

Why not support the current actions and proposals of Biden and the Democrats to restore sanity to our government and our country? Why not oppose Trump's attempted coup, and support his conviction over this solid breach of his oath of office?

Trump needs to be prevented from serving in office again, and he needs to be silenced as much as possible lest he stir up more violent mobs. Threatening or inciting assassination of public officials is a crime. Taylor-Greene belongs in jail, not in congress.

Let's take a second to look at the rightward drift of the GOP over decades and the Presidency of Donald Trump.  Did Trump really move the puck down the ice, or he just apply a slapshot at the glass?  I think it matters, because he seems to have a hold on the party that has little to do with their "core beliefs", at least as they have stated them in the past.  There's more at play here than ideological fortification.  We're seeing something akin to true derangement. Remember the howls about Trump Derangement Syndrome?  It's typical for accusers to point at their adversaries (enemies?) and accuse them of the very conditions they exemplify themselves.  

So we're now in very dangerous territory, because we have one serious major party (agree with their ideas or don't) and the other in a state resembling mental illness.  This resembles the 1850s and even the 1950s, with conspiracy theories driving the politics of the time.  The fever broke in the 1950s, not so much in the 1850s
One state after the election -- but a big one:

Hobby School of Public Affairs, University of Houston

https://uh.edu/hobby/tx2021/attitudes.pdf

[size=38pt]TEXAS[/size]

This may be water over the dam or under the bridge, but at this point if Trump were up for election (he isn't, of course) he would lose. It's favorability, but with these numbers the difference between approval and favorability cannot mean much. This of course follows the insane events at the US Capitol about a month ago. Texas is increasingly becoming a microcosm of America in most aspects of life, although it is still decidedly more Republican than the US as a whole. 

Trump did win the state decisively, although less decisively than any Republican nominee since Dole in 1996. 

[table][tr][td]....................VF  SF N SU VUDK
Joe Biden       26 15 11 5 37 6
Kamala Harris 25 14   8 6 37 10
Donald Trump 29 10   5 5 46 5[/table]

VF very favorable
SF somewhat favorable 
N  (neutral) neither favorable nor unfavorable
SU slightly unfavorable
VU very unfavorable
DK don't know/no response

Biden is at 41-43, but Trump is at 39-51 in favorability. To be sure, that is not approval, but I can see no way of seeing Biden more positively than Trump among Texas voters for now.
(02-04-2021, 04:18 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2021, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with you a lot, but Bob Butler says we need some more red Republican views on the new facebook forum. Feel free to join. It is getting lots of new members.

How many times do I need to say I'm not a Republican?
I've been telling them that for many years. You could tell them a thousand times and it won't sink in because they're pretty much nuts.
(02-05-2021, 07:05 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The Republican Party has gone from being a mainstream Party with a fascist fringe to being a fascistic Party with a mainstream relic. Nixon miscalculated about the desirability of the white Southern racists in his Party. In 1980, 1984, and 1988 that was good for landslide wins of the Presidency and big gains in the Senate as Dixiecrats joined the Party of Lincoln while holding their nose about Lincoln.

The Republican party used to have genuine liberals like Hugh Scott, Edwin Brooke, George Romney, Mark Hatfield, Jacob Javits, Arlen Specter, Winthrop Rockefeller, and Charles Percy. As late as 1964, Republicans stood behind the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because it was clearly the legislation that enforced the clauses that read:


Quote:Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

within the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments. After all, the GOP was still the Party of Lincoln in the 1960's, and Republicans sought to remind us all of that. 
It seems to have forgotten the heritage that it once had on human rights and civil liberties. The GOP always was the Party of tycoons, executives, and (northern) corporate farmers and ranchers who see class privilege as the highest purpose in human existence -- especially among those who do not enjoy any semblance of class privilege. The GOP did win over the Southern agrarian racists, but at a price of losing the comparatively liberal "Rockefeller Republicans" and the political mainstream. By default the GOP has become increasingly racist, superstitious, and anti-modern. It has adopted a twisted sort of populism, the sort that faults educated people as exploiters, while endorsing a plutocratic agenda that truly exploits and degrades people. The anti-Communist rhetoric of the John Birch Society has become core -- and the definition of Communism is practically anything that fails to exalt pure, dehumanized plutocracy if it isn't overt fascism.
The only party that I see ignoring the ignoring/trashing the Constitution, representing/defending foreign interests and doing whatever it can to undermine the rule of law is the Democratic party these days. You have Liz Cheney and that's it. Once she's out of the way. there will be no rules to save idiots like you from us. You should really start paying attention to the Jackasses that you elected because your life/ personal well being is now directly attached to them whether you like it or not, whether you think you deserve to be punished along with them or not these days. I mean, you are much closer to being seriously hurt for a mistake a dip shit Democrat in Washington makes today than you were while Trump was in office. You don't have an excuse for being stupid like the ghetto minorities are being given today. You're white and you're college educated and you're to old to pass for being young and naive too.
Your both morons subservient to the capitalist class, but do as you please.
(02-06-2021, 08:49 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2021, 02:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]The Parties have not changed much. Trump has taken Republicans further to the right, and has only brought out the simmering bigotry that was there since the sixties, including from the Southern strategy and the Goldwater candidacy.

The Republicans have turned increasingly to the right. As Obama said, they have embraced all kinds of crazy for years. It goes way back. But they are extremists now. Meanwhile, their stonewalling and blocking of all needed legislation for 40 years, and increasingly so, has polarized Democrats on the other side. The result of this stagnation and repression imposed by Republicans is that real problems and concerns have increased. So the activism on the Left has increased too. The 4T is the time of decision. Which side are you on? It seems despite your claims, you have chosen the right-wing. If I am wrong about that, I'd be pleased, but I don't see it from you right now.

Why not support the current actions and proposals of Biden and the Democrats to restore sanity to our government and our country? Why not oppose Trump's attempted coup, and support his conviction over this solid breach of his oath of office?

Trump needs to be prevented from serving in office again, and he needs to be silenced as much as possible lest he stir up more violent mobs. Threatening or inciting assassination of public officials is a crime. Taylor-Greene belongs in jail, not in congress.

Let's take a second to look at the rightward drift of the GOP over decades and the Presidency of Donald Trump.  Did Trump really move the puck down the ice, or he just apply a slapshot at the glass?  I think it matters, because he seems to have a hold on the party that has little to do with their "core beliefs", at least as they have stated them in the past.  There's more at play here than ideological fortification.  We're seeing something akin to true derangement. Remember the howls about Trump Derangement Syndrome?  It's typical for accusers to point at their adversaries (enemies?) and accuse them of the very conditions they exemplify themselves.  

So we're now in very dangerous territory, because we have one serious major party (agree with their ideas or don't) and the other in a state resembling mental illness.  This resembles the 1850s and even the 1950s, with conspiracy theories driving the politics of the time.  The fever broke in the 1950s, not so much in the 1850s
You seem to be ignoring that as the American right (the Republican base) has been moving the Republicans further to the right, the Left has been been moving the Democratic party further to the left to the point where the Democratic Party is barely recognizable as an American party these days. So, which side that's controlled by ideological zealots is going nuts these days?  So, how many crazy left wing women are going to directly participate in the war that they start with America? You are now in very dangerous territory and we won't be fighting over slavery this time. We'll be fighting over a country vs a foreign regime that you either f-d up and elected or wanted. I can tell you this, the Left is going to lose and the Democratic side is going to be destroyed in the process.
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