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(02-20-2021, 05:21 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Capital is the crisis.

Example: the Nazi regime was empowered to defend the capital interests of German industry from domestic revolution. Everything else flowed from this.  

All these little problems are compounds of this single much larger issue. And again, this isn't as vulgar as "spread the wealth" in the sense of seizing bank accounts. It is about eliminating generalized production for exchange altogether.

Marxist theory is based on capital and violence being two of the key concepts.  The owners of the means of production are pitted against the source of the labor using violence.  If you assume labor turns miraculously from revolutionaries into saints, fine.  Color me dubious.

From another perspective, let’s assume tribal thinking is the point of view.  You divide the world into us and them, develop xenophobia towards them, and use whatever means necessary to dominate them.

Marxism becomes one example of tribal thinking.  The owners of the means of production become them.  Laborers become us.  You work up all the bad aspects of them.  You try to use violence to eliminate them.

Nazi culture was the last crisis.  The Aryan was from their perspective us.  The Jew and the Slavs were them.  You worked up a hatred of them, then used violence to subjugate and eliminate them.

Now let’s go with the current crisis.  Systematic racism.  Check.  Whites us, minorities them.  Red Violence.  Check.  Reds against blues, whites against minorities.  Global warming.  Sorta check.  Those that care for the planet are us.  Those who care more for immediate profit are them.  COVID.  Shouldn’t match unless you call the bug them.  One side of the problem is entirely impersonal.  The economy.  The immediate problem is caused by COVID, and does not mesh up well with tribal thinking perspective, but underneath the surface is biomes the elites versus the workers.  It is not the obvious and blatant problem, but is there.  There are non violent solutions.

Seemingly, every single problem cannot be pegged on tribal thinking.  Still, you see why the modern perspective confronts multiple problems.  By concentrating on one problem with one solution, you are just limiting your perspective.  That perspective has nothing to do with many modern problems.
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Capital is a tool like a cruise missile or backhoe.  None of them matter if the human actor is removed.  So no, it's the capitalists not the tool they use that is at fault.  Can their destructive nature be tamed by limiting the impact of their chosen tool?  Sure, but they're predatory by nature.  Remove one tool and they'll find another.  Look at Trump: predator to the core.  He chose celebrity and anger, and they worked for him.
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

Thomas Picketty in his seminal tome Capital in the 21st Century showed how powerful this tool really is.  Given adequate opportunity, the predator class can engineer gains that exceed the rate of economic growth, and maintain it over long periods.  Eventually, they will own everything.  That's the power of that tool.  We're well on our way to that end, so taming the predator class will be a must almost immediately.  Can we bear a system that allows a single individual to accumulate $75Billion in a single year?  Others are in the wings, watching and waiting for their chance too.  Bezos set the standard. Elon Musk is right there on his tail... and there are others, some hidden from view, who want to be in the new uber-class.  It will make Feudalism seem tame and quaint by comparison.
(02-20-2021, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Thomas Picketty in his seminal tome Capital in the 21st Century showed how powerful this tool really is.  Given adequate opportunity, the predator class can engineer gains that exceed the rate of economic growth, and maintain it over long periods.  Eventually, they will own everything.  That's the power of that tool.  We're well on our way to that end, so taming the predator class will be a must almost immediately.  Can we bear a system that allows a single individual to accumulate $75Billion in a single year?  Others are in the wings, watching and waiting for their chance too.  Bezos set the standard. Elon Musk is right there on his tail... and there are others, some hidden from view, who want to be in the new uber-class.  It will make Feudalism seem tame and quaint by comparison.

I do see the point of risk existing with the elite money and the racist votes dominant and allied together as they were with the unraveling Republicans.  With the crisis Democrats?  For the moment the threat of the elites owning the government has not been shut down.  It is too easy for representative wanting to be elite to give benefits to the elite.  However, if it becomes the thing to win dominance by serving the people rather than cozying up to the elites, the problem which was very real in the unraveling could fall apart in a new progressive era.

If taming the elites must begin almost immediately, that makes me think of the next awakening.  Right now correcting the imbalance of wealth does not seem to be on the crisis agenda.  Biden’s agenda seems busy enough.  If enough is done on the global warming issue that the imbalance of wealth becomes the most important issue of the awakening, if the next generation of prophets gets mad about that rather than the destruction of the planet, who knows?

With every age boundary there has been a significant change in the form of government.  It makes me inclined to believe there will be one with the coming of the Information Age too.  What will it be?  While we have not solved the security issues yet, a network based direct democracy would not shock me.  With representative government, there is the problem of the representatives wanting to become elites and over representing the elites.  Direct vote could kill that.  It could start with a direct vote veto and build with referendums.

I believe it is coming eventually, will bow to the belief that we are not ready for it yet, but still anticipate that it is coming.
(02-20-2021, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

Thomas Picketty in his seminal tome Capital in the 21st Century showed how powerful this tool really is.  Given adequate opportunity, the predator class can engineer gains that exceed the rate of economic growth, and maintain it over long periods.  Eventually, they will own everything.  That's the power of that tool.  We're well on our way to that end, so taming the predator class will be a must almost immediately.  Can we bear a system that allows a single individual to accumulate $75Billion in a single year?  Others are in the wings, watching and waiting for their chance too.  Bezos set the standard. Elon Musk is right there on his tail... and there are others, some hidden from view, who want to be in the new uber-class.  It will make Feudalism seem tame and quaint by comparison.

Unfortunately, Piketty doesn't actually understand capitalism and his proposed solution (a global wealth tax) won't actually fix anything. It's more social Democratic deck chair rearranging.

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2...its-worse/
(02-20-2021, 10:41 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Capital is a tool like a cruise missile or backhoe.  None of them matter if the human actor is removed.  So no, it's the capitalists not the tool they use that is at fault.  Can their destructive nature be tamed by limiting the impact of their chosen tool?  Sure, but they're predatory by nature.  Remove one tool and they'll find another.  Look at Trump: predator to the core.  He chose celebrity and anger, and they worked for him.

Again, it really isn't the capitalists "fault". They do what they do precisely because they are as governed by Capital as the workers.
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Capital cannot rule us. Capital-owners can. At the worst was chattel slavery. But that is over. 

I'm not going to discuss every aspect of capital, but I can start with assuming that a device that can make human effort meaningful in producing desirable objects on a repetitive basis is capital. In the hydraulic societies of antiquity in modern-day Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan, a little plot of desert was worthless unless it could get water to irrigate the crops . Irrigation and drainage canals, pumps (typically driven by livestock), tools for clearing the canals, and of course plows... and the livestock for driving the pumps or pulling the plow are capital. The land is worthless without irrigation.

You tell me: what part of the capital could oppress people? Oppression, when it came, originated in some ruler who got whatever he wanted. That is the oppressor -- the Pharaoh in Egypt, and whatever his title was in those other countries. Capital did not oppress, but the person who could tax a farmer into poverty could.

Fast forward to Marx' time. The capital in a factory included fixed property (land and building), equipment including productive machinery. Was it the fixed property or equipment that oppressed and exploited workers therein, or the ownership and management? (OK, someone who fully endorses capitalism at its harshest might argue that workers were exploiting the capitalists, but that is one twisted story). 

Capital might make life easier than what preceded. The question is who commands the capital.
(02-20-2021, 05:02 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 10:41 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Capital is a tool like a cruise missile or backhoe.  None of them matter if the human actor is removed.  So no, it's the capitalists not the tool they use that is at fault.  Can their destructive nature be tamed by limiting the impact of their chosen tool?  Sure, but they're predatory by nature.  Remove one tool and they'll find another.  Look at Trump: predator to the core.  He chose celebrity and anger, and they worked for him.

Again, it really isn't the capitalists "fault". They do what they do precisely because they are as governed by Capital as the workers.

I can't disagree more. Fault must lie with the actors, not the motivators. Only the actors have agency and the requirement to exercise it responsibly. Most fail the test, but it's their failure first and foremost.  Blaming the system is like blaming the house after its owner paints in pink.
(02-20-2021, 04:38 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

Thomas Picketty in his seminal tome Capital in the 21st Century showed how powerful this tool really is.  Given adequate opportunity, the predator class can engineer gains that exceed the rate of economic growth, and maintain it over long periods.  Eventually, they will own everything.  That's the power of that tool.  We're well on our way to that end, so taming the predator class will be a must almost immediately.  Can we bear a system that allows a single individual to accumulate $75Billion in a single year?  Others are in the wings, watching and waiting for their chance too.  Bezos set the standard. Elon Musk is right there on his tail... and there are others, some hidden from view, who want to be in the new uber-class.  It will make Feudalism seem tame and quaint by comparison.

Unfortunately, Piketty doesn't actually understand capitalism and his proposed solution (a global wealth tax) won't actually fix anything. It's more social Democratic deck chair rearranging.

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2...its-worse/

What radicals like Einzige forget is that his remedies, if they ever come, will come centuries from now. Otherwise, deck chair rearranging is the best we can hope for in this Titanic society. And such titanic civilizations rise and fall, but that takes time too. Those who say that the USA or Western Capitalism is about to fall have a short term view. I expect this will take at least 300 years. And even then, what follows will depend on the level of evolution that what we now know as human beings have reached. Human transformation, as was offered by the human potential, counter-culture and new age movements, is a necessary part of that evolution. Our flaws as people are not easily exorcized just by people rising up to overthrow something.


Sometimes I can't get enough of my favorite song:
(the single version this time Smile )


(02-21-2021, 02:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 04:38 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

Thomas Picketty in his seminal tome Capital in the 21st Century showed how powerful this tool really is.  Given adequate opportunity, the predator class can engineer gains that exceed the rate of economic growth, and maintain it over long periods.  Eventually, they will own everything.  That's the power of that tool.  We're well on our way to that end, so taming the predator class will be a must almost immediately.  Can we bear a system that allows a single individual to accumulate $75Billion in a single year?  Others are in the wings, watching and waiting for their chance too.  Bezos set the standard. Elon Musk is right there on his tail... and there are others, some hidden from view, who want to be in the new uber-class.  It will make Feudalism seem tame and quaint by comparison.

Unfortunately, Piketty doesn't actually understand capitalism and his proposed solution (a global wealth tax) won't actually fix anything. It's more social Democratic deck chair rearranging.

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2...its-worse/

What radicals like Einzige forget is that his remedies, if they ever come, will come centuries from now. Otherwise, deck chair rearranging is the best we can hope for in this Titanic society. And such titanic civilizations rise and fall, but that takes time too. Those who say that the USA or Western Capitalism is about to fall have a short term view. I expect this will take at least 300 years. And even then, what follows will depend on the level of evolution that what we now know as human beings have reached. Human transformation, as was offered by the human potential, counter-culture and new age movements, is a necessary part of that evolution. Our flaws as people are not easily exorcized just by people rising up to overthrow something.

Karl Marx underestimated the ability of capitalists to adapt to reality. Capitalism is not a suicide cult that demands that it get everything only to have its proponents doom themselves to the brutal assessment of a proletarian revolution.  I am not saying that Marxism implies the extermination of capitalists, but it is the only ideology that has done that. 

Capitalists can have their heads on straight, and even in Marx' time, conditions were usually improving for workers. Competition for workers implies that wages can rise, and with that living conditions for the proletariat can improve.  Capitalists who made big money of technological innovations from petroleum refining to phonographs needed customers, and new products do not sell where and when people live on the brink of starvation. 

For their survival as a class faring better than the proletariat, capitalists must ensure that workers have a stake in the system.  Without such a stake they become goldbricks and fall for any demagogue who calls for an end to their abuse.
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

I think there is considerable focus on this in the current 4T. Not that this problem will be fully and forever solved in the next 8 years, but the direction needs changing now. Trump deceived people that he was concerned about this issue, and Sanders and Warren and even Biden spoke to it explicitly. The USA will suffer a great deal if the last 40 years of fast-growing inequality and wage-slavery is not shifted toward a different trend, just as happened in the previous 4T. The neo-liberal era needs to end. That by definition is also the end of rising inequality and reverses that trend. Trickle-down must be replaced by flowing up in this 4T. Covid is just another symptom of neo-liberalism, as is climate change/pollution. And racism is implied in it. The direction must shift.
I love the assumption, coming from well-to-do (relatively apeaking) members of the American labor aristocracy as populate this board, that a proletarian revolution would be immiserating.

For you, perhaps.
(02-22-2021, 01:02 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]I love the assumption, coming from well-to-do (relatively apeaking) members of the American labor aristocracy as populate this board, that a proletarian revolution would be immiserating.

For you, perhaps.


I think it would be both proper and fitting for the Democratic party and its strongholds to end by succumbing to a proletarian revolution myself.
(02-22-2021, 02:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-22-2021, 01:02 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]I love the assumption, coming from well-to-do (relatively apeaking) members of the American labor aristocracy as populate this board, that a proletarian revolution would be immiserating.

For you, perhaps.


I think it would be both proper and fitting for the Democratic party and its strongholds to end by  succumbing to a proletarian revolution myself.

That goes for the Republicans, too. It never fails to amaze me that conservatives don't see that the GOP is just the functional counterpoint of the Democratic Party- white Christian identity politics etc.

You, as a small business owner,  are doomed by the capitalist system. It wants to resubmerge you back into the proletariat, and will succeed. You can either embrace the forces trying to destroy you or see that the only alternative is a united working class, global in scope, that smashes their system and all its workings into junk. And you can work for that even if it does not come to fruition in your time.
(02-21-2021, 04:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

I think there is considerable focus on this in the current 4T. Not that this problem will be fully and forever solved in the next 8 years, but the direction needs changing now. Trump deceived people that he was concerned about this issue, and Sanders and Warren and even Biden spoke to it explicitly. The USA will suffer a great deal if the last 40 years of fast-growing inequality and wage-slavery is not shifted toward a different trend, just as happened in the previous 4T. The neo-liberal era needs to end. That by definition is also the end of rising inequality and reverses that trend. Trickle-down must be replaced by flowing up in this 4T. Covid is just another symptom of neo-liberalism, as is climate change/pollution. And racism is implied in it. The direction must shift.
Upward flow sounds better but in reality only makes the ones at the top rich or richer. The downward flow/trickle down recognizes the ones at the top are rich and encourages them to spend more on improving and expanding their business's. Either way, the ones at the top are the primary benefactors.
(02-22-2021, 02:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-21-2021, 04:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

I think there is considerable focus on this in the current 4T. Not that this problem will be fully and forever solved in the next 8 years, but the direction needs changing now. Trump deceived people that he was concerned about this issue, and Sanders and Warren and even Biden spoke to it explicitly. The USA will suffer a great deal if the last 40 years of fast-growing inequality and wage-slavery is not shifted toward a different trend, just as happened in the previous 4T. The neo-liberal era needs to end. That by definition is also the end of rising inequality and reverses that trend. Trickle-down must be replaced by flowing up in this 4T. Covid is just another symptom of neo-liberalism, as is climate change/pollution. And racism is implied in it. The direction must shift.
Upward flow sounds better but in reality only makes the ones at the top rich or richer. The downward flow/trickle down recognizes the ones at the top are rich and encourages them to spend more on improving and expanding their business's. Either way, the ones at the top are the primary benefactors.

Yes, precisely so. The solution is to abolish Capital.
(02-22-2021, 02:50 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-22-2021, 02:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-21-2021, 04:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2021, 05:01 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]The Democrats aren't eager to do shit except to continue to extend the rule of Capital - not "the rich" but Capital, which is a system ordering and governing all human capacity on Earth today.

Is it telling that most people don't see the division of wealth as one of the crisis problems?  The economy is, and the division of wealth is part of it, but the key problem Marx saw is not considered that important now and the tool he saw as solving it is not seen as necessary.  The most severe problems faced by the culture are addressed in the crisis, and capitol is not among them.

I can see the division of wealth as being addressed in a future awakening or crisis, though likely through non violent means.  It is just that with the productivity increase, there isn't that much focus on it.

I think there is considerable focus on this in the current 4T. Not that this problem will be fully and forever solved in the next 8 years, but the direction needs changing now. Trump deceived people that he was concerned about this issue, and Sanders and Warren and even Biden spoke to it explicitly. The USA will suffer a great deal if the last 40 years of fast-growing inequality and wage-slavery is not shifted toward a different trend, just as happened in the previous 4T. The neo-liberal era needs to end. That by definition is also the end of rising inequality and reverses that trend. Trickle-down must be replaced by flowing up in this 4T. Covid is just another symptom of neo-liberalism, as is climate change/pollution. And racism is implied in it. The direction must shift.
Upward flow sounds better but in reality only makes the ones at the top rich or richer. The downward flow/trickle down recognizes the ones at the top are rich and encourages them to spend more on improving and expanding their business's. Either way, the ones at the top are the primary benefactors.

Yes, precisely so. The solution is to abolish Capital.

No, even the more orthodox view in Marxism is to abolish the bourgeoisie and to put capital under the control of people responsible to the proletariat. In theory that implies a socialist state with a democratic government. The problem with M-L is that it went to the Stalinist model of central planning devoid of any input from those who actually did the work in farms and factories.

... There are other explanations, and historical reality suggests itself. One is the Skowronek cycle, which explains that around 1980 America went from the New Deal model  that held that the well-being of workers is the measure of prosperity to the neoliberal model, as reflected in politics, in which the creation of wealth in the hands of the Right people who had the responsibility of creating wealth as efficiently as possible would solve all problems by creating so much prosperity that enough would trickle down. The rapacious greed, the sybaritic indulgence, and unchecked power of capitalists and the executive elite became the objective, and even if such Presidents as Clinton and Obama could mitigate things for a short time they quickly found out that in a plutocracy, he who has the gold makes the rules. This was the heyday of Boomer elites as politicians, owners, and executives... and that is coming to an end.
(02-22-2021, 02:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-22-2021, 01:02 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]I love the assumption, coming from well-to-do (relatively speaking) members of the American labor aristocracy as populate this board, that a proletarian revolution would be immiserating.

For you, perhaps.

I think it would be both proper and fitting for the Democratic party and its strongholds to end by  succumbing to a proletarian revolution myself.

Let's start by agreeing that any change this dramatic will trigger some degree of violence -- how much is still TBD.  But let's assume that at least two sides are ideologically wedded to fighting to the end.  If so, then yes, a proletarian revolution will hurt everyone.  

FWIW, I don't see the proletariat revolting.  I see the petty bourgeoise carrying that torch.  The proletariat are too burdened to "mount the barricades",  but a put upon class of small business owners like you might take it on. You have the grievance part down pat.
Discussing Marxism with Einzige on the trump polls page. Does that mean Marx polls higher than Trump now?
(02-22-2021, 02:48 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-22-2021, 02:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-22-2021, 01:02 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]I love the assumption, coming from well-to-do (relatively apeaking) members of the American labor aristocracy as populate this board, that a proletarian revolution would be immiserating.

For you, perhaps.


I think it would be both proper and fitting for the Democratic party and its strongholds to end by  succumbing to a proletarian revolution myself.

That goes for the Republicans, too. It never fails to amaze me that conservatives don't see that the GOP is just the functional counterpoint of the Democratic Party- white Christian identity politics etc.

You, as a small business owner,  are doomed by the capitalist system. It wants to resubmerge you back into the proletariat, and will succeed. You can either embrace the forces trying to destroy you or see that the only alternative is a united working class, global in scope, that smashes their system and all its workings into junk. And you can work for that even if it does not come to fruition in your time.
We know there's a group of Republicans who are in cahoots with the Democrats (5 Senators, 10 Congress people). We refer to them as half Republicans or Rhino's these days. We've known about them for many years now. They're about as spineless and wishy washy and eager to please/bow down to the media and corporations/donor class as the Democrats these days.
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