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(11-09-2020, 12:06 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-08-2020, 10:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN is reporting on one red violence advocate.  The police chief of Marshall Arkansas apparently posted on social media a picture of many Democratic mainstays and advocated that they find their way to the gallows.  It is a rare exception to the call for unity, not violence and division.

Result?  He soon resigned.

I have a vague feeling of unease, underneath the relief. Someone on social media likened it to being in a horror movie where the monster has been killed, but there's still 15 minutes left in the picture.

I agree. I hope it's not a long 15 minutes, but a lot can still happen.
He was fired for that.

The role of the police should be to foster domestic tranquility (if necessary suppressing mob violence), and certainly not to incite mob violence.
(11-08-2020, 01:32 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2020, 08:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Forget the Presidential election,  I think it's plain that Biden will win.  The real issue: who controls the Senate?  We won't know that until the Georgia runoff.

It's interesting to see how much each side can bring to bear on these two races. The Ossoff-Perdue race is close, whereas the Warnock-Loeffler campaign appears to favor the Republican looking at the party vote per se. It would be interesting if Ossoff can pull off a win and leave the election of McConnell as co-president or prime minister (whatever you call it) depending then only on Susan Collins. What will the people of Maine think if McConnell can just sit on every bill and block every appointment, based solely on her party identification?

Having a 4-year long lesson in politics won't overwrite the damage that will be done in that time.  It won't even guarantee that the voters at large will see the cause as an obstructive GOP.  McConnel already played that entire deck of cards, and managed an easy personal victory in his Senate race.  So did most of his party -- Susan Collins not the least of them.  We're outside the boundaries of logic here.  It's tribal to the core.
(11-09-2020, 12:06 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-08-2020, 10:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN is reporting on one red violence advocate.  The police chief of Marshall Arkansas apparently posted on social media a picture of many Democratic mainstays and advocated that they find their way to the gallows.  It is a rare exception to the call for unity, not violence and division.

Result?  He soon resigned.

I have a vague feeling of unease, underneath the relief. Someone on social media likened it to being in a horror movie where the monster has been killed, but there's still 15 minutes left in the picture.

The Senate is still in play. Maybe the scene switches there.  Maybe (just maybe) it all turns out well.
(11-09-2020, 11:29 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 12:06 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-08-2020, 10:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN is reporting on one red violence advocate.  The police chief of Marshall Arkansas apparently posted on social media a picture of many Democratic mainstays and advocated that they find their way to the gallows.  It is a rare exception to the call for unity, not violence and division.

Result?  He soon resigned.

I have a vague feeling of unease, underneath the relief. Someone on social media likened it to being in a horror movie where the monster has been killed, but there's still 15 minutes left in the picture.

The Senate is still in play. Maybe the scene switches there.  Maybe (just maybe) it all turns out well.

This sort of rhetoric explains why a Supreme Court that Donald Trump has so mangled in its purpose can be the 'gift' that keeps giving, especially should states enact increasingly-draconian legal codes or establish their own equivalents of the infamous Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission, a nasty secret police on the same page with such entities as BOSS (enforcers of Apartheid in South Africa), Gestapo, Kempeitai, KGB, Mukhabarat, Stasi, and Tontons Macoutes. 

What most matters is that Republican pols abandon the ideology that Donald Trump has introduced into the GOP.
(11-09-2020, 05:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]What most matters is that Republican pols abandon the ideology that Donald Trump has introduced into the GOP.

I'm not convinced that will happen.  Trump is merely Lee Atwater on steroids, but Lee Atwater was no benchmark of civility either.  When he lay dying, he repudiated all he had done, but the GOP soldiered on all the same.
(11-10-2020, 10:29 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 05:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]What most matters is that Republican pols abandon the ideology that Donald Trump has introduced into the GOP.

I'm not convinced that will happen.  Trump is merely Lee Atwater on steroids, but Lee Atwater was no benchmark of civility either.  When he lay dying, he repudiated all he had done, but the GOP soldiered on all the same.

Update: the lawsuits to negate the 2020 Presidential election by the Trump campaign have practically all failed, and the electors in the various states and District of Columbia have convened, and accordingly the electors have authorized a vote of 306 electoral votes for Joe Biden for President and Kamala Harris for Vice President, with incumbents Donald Trump for President and Mike Pence for Vice-President getting 232 electoral votes.
(12-21-2020, 01:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2020, 10:29 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 05:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]What most matters is that Republican pols abandon the ideology that Donald Trump has introduced into the GOP.

I'm not convinced that will happen.  Trump is merely Lee Atwater on steroids, but Lee Atwater was no benchmark of civility either.  When he lay dying, he repudiated all he had done, but the GOP soldiered on all the same.

Update: the lawsuits to negate the 2020 Presidential election by the Trump campaign have practically all failed, and the electors in the various states and District of Columbia have convened, and accordingly the electors have authorized a vote of 306 electoral votes for Joe Biden for President and Kamala Harris for Vice President, with incumbents Donald Trump for President and Mike Pence for Vice-President getting 232 electoral votes.

None of which precludes some random acts of belligerence -- even violence, perhaps.  Weird times and weird people yield weird results.
(12-21-2020, 10:58 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-21-2020, 01:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Update: the lawsuits to negate the 2020 Presidential election by the Trump campaign have practically all failed, and the electors in the various states and District of Columbia have convened, and accordingly the electors have authorized a vote of 306 electoral votes for Joe Biden for President and Kamala Harris for Vice President, with incumbents Donald Trump for President and Mike Pence for Vice-President getting 232 electoral votes.

None of which precludes some random acts of belligerence -- even violence, perhaps.  Weird times and weird people yield weird results.

I'm trying to figure out some combination of random acts of belligerence which would combine to something dangerous.  An insurrection seems most likely to come from the reds, who have been fed the rigged election myth.  Martial law in response to a red insurrection seems unlikely.  It could happen, but if you demand people to react to nothing?  It seems that patience seems the most likely conspiracy among the blues.
(12-21-2020, 11:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm trying to figure out some combination of random acts of belligerence which would combine to something dangerous.  An insurrection seems most likely to come from the reds, who have been fed the rigged election myth.  Martial law in response to a red insurrection seems unlikely.  It could happen, but if you demand people to react to nothing?  It seems that patience seems the most likely conspiracy among the blues.

The Great War began because one young man shot an archduke: one act followed by a cascade.  What would do the same here is a great question, but we'll only know if it actually happens.  FWIW, I see a lot of petty protests, with calls to invalidate the Biden Presidency.  If enough happen often enough, it might be an issue that emboldens the GOP politicos, and then it's off to the races.
(12-21-2020, 11:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-21-2020, 10:58 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-21-2020, 01:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Update: the lawsuits to negate the 2020 Presidential election by the Trump campaign have practically all failed, and the electors in the various states and District of Columbia have convened, and accordingly the electors have authorized a vote of 306 electoral votes for Joe Biden for President and Kamala Harris for Vice President, with incumbents Donald Trump for President and Mike Pence for Vice-President getting 232 electoral votes.

None of which precludes some random acts of belligerence -- even violence, perhaps.  Weird times and weird people yield weird results.

I'm trying to figure out some combination of random acts of belligerence which would combine to something dangerous.  An insurrection seems most likely to come from the reds, who have been fed the rigged election myth.  Martial law in response to a red insurrection seems unlikely.  It could happen, but if you demand people to react to nothing?  It seems that patience seems the most likely conspiracy among the blues.

Certain random acts of violence could be considered terrorist attacks. The Trump campaign has played up hurt feelings without offering meaningful solutions, but note well: the Blue side has shown a willingness to treat such deeds as criminal acts. Prosecutors will do everything possible to ensure that offenders not get a chance to use any criminal trial as a stage for offering some political rationale. Fidel Castro (of course he was a Leftist) got his start and established his bona fides as revolutionary leader while on trial for storming the Moncada barracks. Don't fool yourself: fascism all too often is the use of Bolshevik tactics in the service of a reactionary agenda, and some ruthless figure would be delighted to use Castro-style tactics to achieve an America in which (to the delight of many already rich and powerful) are rewarded solely for being rich and powerful and others are punished for not being so... and outlawing abortion and even contraception, treating minorities as pariahs, and perhaps having wars for profit (poor people become cannon fodder, but the rich get to reap the profits steeped with the blood of American soldiers and oppressed peoples outside America, again rewarding the rich and powerful for being that already and punishing the poor. The American Right includes people just as delighted at listening to incoherent harangues by Donald Trump as Cuban Commies were delighted to hear the incoherent harangues of Fidel Castro. 

The Blue side has taken on some classical traits of conservatives. It was once the conservatives who stood for tradition, for formality, for precedent, for legal niceties, and for overall decency in conduct. Liberals acquiesced with LGBT rights in part because such was consistent with law and order necessary for making civil liberties meaningful. Lawlessness is not liberty. Liberals have sought inclusion, but that implies a desire to repress resentment of personal successes of minorities. People whose economic interests based upon their economic positions would ordinarily be on the Right are with the Democrats because the GOP has been fomenting resentment. 

OK, resentment of honest success has never done any society any good. The classic example of a successful minority, Jews in Europe and the Americas, demonstrates that a society is better off with them than without them. Much of America's success in fighting Hitler was Jews as business owners, scientists, and creative people. Hitler threw away that potential asset. Imagine that the Good Guys and Bad Guys are inverted, and Germany becomes a safe haven for Jews while America has the concentration and even murder camps. The Germans stumble their way into a hegemony over Europe that sticks from Lisbon and London to Leningrad... whoops, Petrograd... The Japanese would have been wise to cultivate the Chinese diaspora as desirable allies, which they might have done had they not been the brutes that they were in World War II.  It is far easier to win the peace if one leaves the defeated no cause for striking back. Occupation duty was so easy in Italy that few Americans got the chance to do it even though Mussolini had excoriated America throughout the time in which America was at war for decadence and depravity.  

America has several Model Majorities, including Jews and Chinese-Americans that the Axis gangsters treated badly... and I would suggest to those white people who resent the success of those minorities that it is wiser to imitate Jews, Chinese-Americans, Korean-Americans, Japanese-Americans, middle-class Hispanics, Arab-Americans, Americans of South Asian origin, and of course the (much expanded) "Talented Tenth" of African-Americans than to claim victimhood. Don't get me wrong; poor white people in Appalachia and the Ozarks, and in dying cities from Pennsylvania to Illinois are just as oppressed as poor blacks used to be. Opiates, meth, and fentanyl are themselves oppression. The Model Minorities have succeeded, and they are a big part of the Democratic Party. They are setting much of the agenda within it.  

Maybe Germany would have had a different history had it treated Adolf Hitler much as America treated Ted "Unabom" Kaczynski, ensuring that he never used a court trial as a forum for pushing his twisted ideas upon America. We hear nothing from him; we see no writings emanating from his cell. Timothy McVeigh is of course silenced forever, and he has been unable to leave any testament to whatever sick ideas he had. 

It is up to Democrats now to seek to improve the lot of Americans in distressed areas even if -- and perhaps especially -- those areas went for Donald Trump. I don't know how we get the old-fashioned jobs in mining and early-industrial manufacturing back. We are at the end of the era of material shortages, but many of us are spiritually empty. It is no longer possible to get rich simply by making more stuff. I would suppose that it was far easier to make a good living making console color TV sets for Magnavox in the 1970's or to sell them as a commissioned salesperson at the time than it is to work for Wal*Mart selling the better (by every technological standard) large-screen, flat-screen TV's that cost less than the console sets in real money. The age in which scarcity disappears, a time that Marx prophesized would happen ("Socialism" would accelerate the process by cutting out the greedy plutocrats who take more than their share of income) and that many science-fiction writers suggested was an inevitability is no unmixed blessing. We have millions of people tailor-made to do semi-skilled manufacturing because they are athletic enough, have a good work ethic, have motivation in material prosperity, and don't care about any high-fallutin' culture or ideas. America needs room for dullards and mediocrities as well as for brilliant people if it is to be good for us all.
(12-21-2020, 12:09 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-21-2020, 11:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm trying to figure out some combination of random acts of belligerence which would combine to something dangerous.  An insurrection seems most likely to come from the reds, who have been fed the rigged election myth.  Martial law in response to a red insurrection seems unlikely.  It could happen, but if you demand people to react to nothing?  It seems that patience seems the most likely conspiracy among the blues.

The Great War began because one young man shot an archduke: one act followed by a cascade.  What would do the same here is a great question, but we'll only know if it actually happens.  FWIW, I see a lot of petty protests, with calls to invalidate the Biden Presidency.  If enough happen often enough, it might be an issue that emboldens the GOP politicos, and then it's off to the races.

I am reminded in Barbara Tuchman's The Proud Tower, relating the decade or two preceding the Great War, that that time looked good only after the monstrosity of Communism appeared in Russia and the interwar chaos. It is easy to love the culture of the time, when Impressionism was still new and active in painting, when great novels and poetry were being written, when great music was composed, and when wondrous technology enchanted  the world. She reminds us that things were great for the elites, but certainly not for the working classes; numerous nationalities were marginalized to the extent that they had to assimilate into the values of Berlin, Vienna, or Saint Petersburg... or either emigrate or be treated as suspect despite their values. Halcyon times do not implode in such an apocalypse as the (then-called) "Great" War even if there is impressive Art Deco architecture, Sibelius and Puccini are composing, and Impressionist art is sold about as cheaply as "velvet Elvis" paintings today.

It will be up to the Biden Administration to make much that has gone wrong right. I expect Congressional Republicans to do everything possible to thwart such, for they have nothing now other than mass resentment to attract anyone other than the sorts who think that the "right" America is the one that rewards rich and powerful people alone for being rich and powerful. (Worth noting: many of the rich and powerful distrust such an agenda because mirror-image Marxism leads to Marxist or quasi-Marxist values among the proletariat. Capitalism that works for people other than capitalists is a good idea).
(11-09-2020, 06:10 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 12:06 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-08-2020, 10:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN is reporting on one red violence advocate.  The police chief of Marshall Arkansas apparently posted on social media a picture of many Democratic mainstays and advocated that they find their way to the gallows.  It is a rare exception to the call for unity, not violence and division.

Result?  He soon resigned.

I have a vague feeling of unease, underneath the relief. Someone on social media likened it to being in a horror movie where the monster has been killed, but there's still 15 minutes left in the picture.

I agree. I hope it's not a long 15 minutes, but a lot can still happen.

Well, it's down to 6 minutes now. So far, pretty good.....
(12-22-2020, 01:14 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 06:10 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-09-2020, 12:06 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-08-2020, 10:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]CNN is reporting on one red violence advocate.  The police chief of Marshall Arkansas apparently posted on social media a picture of many Democratic mainstays and advocated that they find their way to the gallows.  It is a rare exception to the call for unity, not violence and division.

Result?  He soon resigned.

I have a vague feeling of unease, underneath the relief. Someone on social media likened it to being in a horror movie where the monster has been killed, but there's still 15 minutes left in the picture.

I agree. I hope it's not a long 15 minutes, but a lot can still happen.

Well, it's down to 6 minutes now. So far, pretty good.....

Agreed.  A lot of people are afraid of his declaring martial law.  Still, how do you put down an insurrection that doesn't exist?  It is simply too cold out for the protests of this summer, and everyone is seeing how Georgia and the early Biden years play out anyway.  One response to martial law is to do nothing until noon on January 20th, then Biden tells the military to stand down.

Then there is impersonating someone with official authority...

US Code Wrote:Whoever falsely assumes or pretends to be an officer or employee acting under the authority of the United States or any department, agency or officer thereof, and acts as such, or in such pretended character demands or obtains any money, paper, document, or thing of value, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both

I do hope that can be a felony.  That would make Trump ineligible to hold a federal office.
I am reminded of the famous scene in The Wizard of Oz in which the Wicked Witch of the West tries to set fire to the Scarecrow. I think we all know what follows, but in case we don't know... we think we are in for a long dragged-out struggle. Not quite. I don't do spoilers.
(12-22-2020, 08:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I am reminded of the famous scene in The Wizard of Oz in which the Wicked Witch of the West tries to set fire to the Scarecrow. I think we all know what follows, but in case we don't know... we think we are in for a long dragged-out struggle. Not quite. I don't do spoilers.

I know he has me calling up my copy of the Constitution, and reading the text of the XXVth Amendment. Trump is considering radical things like martial law, listening to a few outsiders, and alienating those with regular positions. I'm thinking he really doesn't want to get the cabinet and vice president too much against him. It looks like if the cabinet acts late in the Christmas holidays, and congress is not in session at the time, congress has 21 days dithering time before it has to act to respond. I can see Nancy as being slow to put consideration of the president's condition on the docket.

It would be ashamed if Trump looses his ability to pardon.

I know I've done a lot of daydreams. This one doesn't seem particularly likely to play out. Or is it?
XXV. Trump is just too dangerous even at this late stage.

Trump's pardon of war criminals as contractors is a slap in the face of all American service personnel who are taught early in military training that war crimes are the worst things that one can do. These pardons are contrary to military discipline and soldiers' morale.

It is bad enough that he pardons corrupt pols who serve his political ends.

I suppose that there are rewards for selfless sacrifice... of principle:

[Image: th?id=OIP.BnmlpZt9dQ4jydq_eF94kAAAAA&pid...=204&h=122][Image: th?id=OIP.xLVVDaNWD09lJ9zV5pfXpAHaEZ&pid...=205&h=122]
(12-24-2020, 04:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]XXV. Trump is just too dangerous even at this late stage.

Trump's pardon of war criminals as contractors is a slap in the face of all American service personnel who are taught early in military training that war crimes are the worst things that one can do. These pardons are contrary to military discipline and soldiers' morale.

It is bad enough that he pardons corrupt pols who serve his political ends.

I suppose that there are rewards for selfless sacrifice... of principle:

[Image: th?id=OIP.BnmlpZt9dQ4jydq_eF94kAAAAA&pid...=204&h=122][Image: th?id=OIP.xLVVDaNWD09lJ9zV5pfXpAHaEZ&pid...=205&h=122]

27 more days. How much more damage can he do to our country and what it stands for?
National disgrace, thy name is Donald John Trump!
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