Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(02-15-2020, 01:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It's also a question of whether, if Bernie isn't nominated and many of his supporters bolt in 2020, will we survive as a country? 4 more years of Trump will be a major obstacle to this. The Republican Party is the one that needs to die. Like, yesterday.

If Bernie IS nominated, and the moderates bolt as a result, that could also endanger the Republic. The Dems need to be united against a transcendent evil this time. The question is whether they will be. If the country dies, I'm not sure it matters which party dies.

Sanders is the regeneracy candidate. If the Dems don't choose him, they may lose anyway, because the other candidates aren't up to the job of beating Trump, let alone setting a new course for the country. Bernie can do both, although "can" does not equal "will."

-- if Bernie wins the nomination those selfidentifying as Dems will vote 4 him. They're Vote Blue No Matter Who. It's the Berniecrats- ppl who r only voting Dem bcuz of Bernie- who will bolt.. They were suckerpunched in 2016- they expected the Dems 2 run honest primaries & not cheat- so their response was mixed: some voted Green, others actually voted 4 the Donald, but most stayed home since they no longer had a dog in that fight. This time around the Berniecrats r wary. They see Bloomberg trying 2 buy the election. They see Buttcheat trying to steal it with technology. They're with their guy all the way 2 the Convention but they're also considering plan Bs. I know. I belong 2 several Bernie groups & a few Tulsi groups. Some of these ppl say they will write their candidate in, but many of them r eyeballing the Greens as a fallback. As l said b4, if they vote Green as a block & get their own progressive party. That could be the beginning if the end 4 the Dems if the new progressive party starts attracting progressive Dems 2 it. All that will be left would be blue dogs
Otoh, the Dems could survive as the Blue Dog party bcuz the repugs r going off the rails. I haven't realized until l wrote that brief summary of political parties above what u were saying about this 4T resembling the Civil War 4T. The Know Nothings infiltrated the Whigs, sending them off the rails. The Tea Partiers & other wingnutz r doing the same thing 2 the repugs, causing the moderates 2 invade the Democratic party , shifting it 2 the right, alienating long time old school Dems & younger ppl in general. These ppl will come 2gether & form a progressive party.2 counter the Blue Dog Dem party.
 Either way the country will survive the Donald, it will just come out worse 4 wear if he gets another 4 years. By 2024 the country should be ripe 4 a progressive (I think we already r, but anyhow) & while Bernie would probably be 2 old 2 run again, he has surrogates. Jeff Merkeley from OR comes 2 mind. The Jacobin Mag did a write up on Tammy Baldwin from WI recently. She sounds like a good successor 2 Bernie. Then there's always my homeboy Sherrod if we can get that clown out of the Governor's Mansion in 2022. Nina Turner is also a possiblity if she can remain relevant 4 the next few years. She has been making political waves this year & would would make a gr8 successor 2 Bernie since she is a dyed in the wool Berniecrat.
So we'll just have 2 see how this all rolls

(02-14-2020, 05:06 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]What l am asking if the Dems can even continue as a viable party if they don't adapt 2 Bernie's ideas, which are basically old school Dem. l have noticed a pattern of parties coming during Awakenings & going during Crises. Or in the case of the Dems, reinventing- u don't stick around some 220 years w/out doing some reinventing.  The Dems got their start in the very late 18th century as an answer to the Federalist Party, @ 1st they were simply known as anti-Federalists, but then Thomas Jefferson renamed them Democratic Republicans. We'll just stick with Dems. Anyhow, this was during a High, but it was as the Govt was just getting started, so maybe that's why these 2 factions started when they did. Anyhow, the Federalists went as soon as they came, & the Dems dominated the political scene 4 the rest of the High, known as the era of Good Feelings. When the Awakening came along so did the Whigs as a party viable enough 2 compete w/the Dems. But that was not 2 last. During the Unraveling, the Whigs went off the off the rails with xenophobia, in fact their last Prez, Millard Fillmore, was actually a Know Nothing which was a very xenophobic 3rd party that infiltrated the Whigs. The Dems, in contrast, welcomed immigrants in2 their party- this was during the Potato Famine- but they also adhered 2 slavery, afterall their founders, Jefferson, Monroe, Jackson etc.. were all slaveholders. Abolitionist Whigs & Dems started forming new parties such as the Free Soil party, & of course the repugs. After the Civil War Crisis, the Whigs & most of the 3rd parties were gone, only the Dems & repugs were left standing, & the Dems were weakened so the repugs dominated the ensuing High. During the 1890s Awakening the Populists came along. The Dems absorbed them. The Labor Movement started when the Civil War ended & peaked during the Depression Crisis, when the Dems absorbed them. Which is why we don't have an official Labor Party like other countries do. Finally during the last Awakening, the Dems enacted Medicare, championed Civil Rights, Women's Rights, & 2 a lesser extent Gay Rights, becoming the Big Tent Party. During the Unraveling, they rolled back on some of this bcoming 3rd Way . Meanwhile the repugs starting going off the rails. They were infiltrated by the Tea Party, but instead of moderate repugs forming their own party, they have been infiltrating the Dems, turning it into a blue dog party & alienating long time old school Dems. Bernie, despite calling himself a democratic socialist, is actually an old school Dem, who is trying to return the party to the old school platform of the Big Tent Era, which is why he's so popular with these ppl.

now if Bernie is screwed over again, or even if he isn't, will his ppl vote 4 the Democratic nominee. Remember alot of Berniecrats aren't Dems -including Bernie 4 that matter- & are just with the party 4 Bernie. If he's not the nominee, they will move on, probably 2 the Green Party, whose platform is very similar 2 what Bernie advocates. If they vote as a block, they could very well tip the Greens over the 5% threshold, which would enable them 2 build a viable progressive party. l have also heard stories that the Unions might bolt from the party as well, since the party has been abandoning the working class 4 the past several decades Normally l would say these r just stories & the bosses r corrupt, but this is a 4T- a Crisis- so it's possible the Unions may decide 2 spend their $ running their own candidates if the Dems don't start running labor friendly candidates. if not this election, then maybe in 2024, when we'll be deeper in2 the Crisis.

so my question is, if the Dems don't adapt 2 Bernie's agenda, will they survive as a party?

All great questions, and ones with no answers for now.  The sad part: the more progressive Dems made a bargain with the devil in the 1930s to get things done that needed doing.  It's been a taint ever since.  Yes, most of the trash tripped across the street under Nixon's Southern Strategy, but it left a mark that's still in effect: the Dems can't even agree on what to have for lunch.  

For some, being contrary is a badge of honor.  But squaring off against an adversary that is both unified, especially under the current scum-dog, and unscrupulous to its core, makes winning nearly impossible unless the Dems can find a way to unite.  

I think some of the angst that is all too evident, is a basic realization that every faction within the party sees support of every other faction as totally optional.  The pros are scared, and they should be.  None of the campaigns really believes the rhetoric all the other campaigns are spewing about unifying behind the eventual winner.  They may not even believe their own.

The only thing that will change that view is a campaign that actually shows unity.  The upside: it happened in 2018.  Candidates as different as Abigail Spanberger and AOC were able to run and not trip over one another.  But that was the House.  Let's see that work across the board.  I'm hopeful, but the odds aren't great. Democrats have a knack of pulling defeat from the jaws of victory. The Greens may gain at Dem expense, but Trump will get 4 more years to tear the country apart. Everyone loses.

(02-15-2020, 04:06 AM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-15-2020, 01:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It's also a question of whether, if Bernie isn't nominated and many of his supporters bolt in 2020, will we survive as a country? 4 more years of Trump will be a major obstacle to this. The Republican Party is the one that needs to die. Like, yesterday.

If Bernie IS nominated, and the moderates bolt as a result, that could also endanger the Republic. The Dems need to be united against a transcendent evil this time. The question is whether they will be. If the country dies, I'm not sure it matters which party dies.

Sanders is the regeneracy candidate. If the Dems don't choose him, they may lose anyway, because the other candidates aren't up to the job of beating Trump, let alone setting a new course for the country. Bernie can do both, although "can" does not equal "will."

-- if Bernie wins the nomination those selfidentifying as Dems will vote 4 him. They're Vote Blue No Matter Who. It's the Berniecrats- ppl who r only voting Dem bcuz of Bernie- who will bolt.. They were suckerpunched in 2016- they expected the Dems 2 run honest primaries & not cheat-

Just as it's not wise to believe Tulsi's lies, it not wise to believe in this conspiracy theory crap either. Whatever bit of cheating there was made no difference in who was nominated in 2016. Now, if the superdelegates end up choosing someone besides Bernie after Bernie won a strong plurality of delegates, then that's when the Berniecrats might bolt.

Quote: so their response was mixed: some voted Green, others actually voted 4 the Donald, but most stayed home since they no longer had a dog in that fight.

Such Berniecrats were less than 20% of the total of Bernie primary voters, which were a small fraction of the general election vote.

Quote: This time around the Berniecrats r wary. They see Bloomberg trying 2 buy the election. They see Buttcheat trying to steal it with technology. They're with their guy all the way 2 the Convention but they're also considering plan Bs. I know. I belong 2 several Bernie groups & a few Tulsi groups. Some of these ppl say they will write their candidate in, but many of them r eyeballing the Greens as a fallback. As l said b4, if they vote Green as a block & get their own progressive party. That could be the beginning if the end 4 the Dems if the new progressive party starts attracting progressive Dems 2 it. All that will be left would be blue dogs
Otoh, the Dems could survive as the Blue Dog party bcuz the repugs r going off the rails. I haven't realized until l wrote that brief summary of political parties above what u were saying about this 4T resembling the Civil War 4T. The Know Nothings infiltrated the Whigs, sending them off the rails. The Tea Partiers & other wingnutz r doing the same thing 2 the repugs, causing the moderates 2 invade the Democratic party , shifting it 2 the right, alienating long time old school Dems & younger ppl in general. These ppl will come 2gether & form a progressive party.2 counter the Blue Dog Dem party.
 Either way the country will survive the Donald, it will just come out worse 4 wear if he gets another 4 years. By 2024 the country should be ripe 4 a progressive (I think we already r, but anyhow) & while Bernie would probably be 2 old 2 run again, he has surrogates. Jeff Merkeley from OR comes 2 mind. The Jacobin Mag did a write up on Tammy Baldwin from WI recently. She sounds like a good successor 2 Bernie. Then there's always my homeboy Sherrod if we can get that clown out of the Governor's Mansion in 2022. Nina Turner is also a possiblity if she can remain relevant 4 the next few years. She has been making political waves this year & would would make a gr8 successor 2 Bernie since she is a dyed in the wool Berniecrat.
So we'll just have 2 see how this all rolls

I don't think the nation will survive 4 years of The Donald. At least, not in its current form. The reactionary Republicans would have too much resistance power, in their reactionary Courts, in the vote suppression and gerrymandering, in their Senate, and we can expect The Donald will amass even more dictatorial power. I'm not saying it won't happen though. The Democrats have a weak field, with the strongest candidate (Sanders) being the underdog as a "socialist" and Biden the other strong favorite fading, and none of the others can beat the Drumpf. And 2024 does look like the challenger wins the popular vote. But on the other hand, by then the Republicans might well have ended democracy (or the nation) as we know it, and my indicators won't matter.

I think the repugs will only fold if they are defeated in general elections. Berniebros and Berniecrats need to listen to Bernie. They need to know who the enemy is. The DNC, Biden, Buttigieg (who hasn't really cheated; there's only suspicions because he contributed funds to the Iowa caucus process), Bloomberg, Klobuchar et al may be inadequate, but they are NOT the enemy. Trump IS our enemy, and should only be looked upon as a criminal, an enemy, a dirty dog; not worthy of any respect. The only things to do with him is get him out of office and into jail. Until then, I don't think the Greens (a party I belonged to for almost 30 years, and might again) are a viable option now with such evil to confront. Mussolini can't be allowed to take over. The Greens may be a viable option at some point though.

Merkeley hasn't got the chops according to my scores (3-9), but Sherrod Brown (19-8) probably does, and possibly Tammy Baldwin (13-6) too. Mitch Landrieu (16-2) is the best option. Terry McAuliffe is from the moderate wing, but he is a winner, score 11-2 at least. He is an effective campaigner and fundraiser and supports whoever the Democrats nominate, including Bernie. I haven't heard that he is in the stop Bernie crowd.

(02-15-2020, 06:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-15-2020, 04:06 AM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-15-2020, 01:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It's also a question of whether, if Bernie isn't nominated and many of his supporters bolt in 2020, will we survive as a country? 4 more years of Trump will be a major obstacle to this. The Republican Party is the one that needs to die. Like, yesterday.

If Bernie IS nominated, and the moderates bolt as a result, that could also endanger the Republic. The Dems need to be united against a transcendent evil this time. The question is whether they will be. If the country dies, I'm not sure it matters which party dies.

Sanders is the regeneracy candidate. If the Dems don't choose him, they may lose anyway, because the other candidates aren't up to the job of beating Trump, let alone setting a new course for the country. Bernie can do both, although "can" does not equal "will."

-- if Bernie wins the nomination those selfidentifying as Dems will vote 4 him. They're Vote Blue No Matter Who. It's the Berniecrats- ppl who r only voting Dem bcuz of Bernie- who will bolt.. They were suckerpunched in 2016- they expected the Dems 2 run honest primaries & not cheat-

Just as it's not wise to believe Tulsi's lies, it not wise to believe in this conspiracy theory crap either. Whatever bit of cheating there was made no difference in who was nominated in 2016. Now, if the superdelegates end up choosing someone besides Bernie after Bernie won a strong plurality of delegates, then that's when the Berniecrats might bolt.

Quote: so their response was mixed: some voted Green, others actually voted 4 the Donald, but most stayed home since they no longer had a dog in that fight.

Such Berniecrats were less than 20% of the total of Bernie primary voters, which were a small fraction of the general election vote.

Quote: This time around the Berniecrats r wary. They see Bloomberg trying 2 buy the election. They see Buttcheat trying to steal it with technology. They're with their guy all the way 2 the Convention but they're also considering plan Bs. I know. I belong 2 several Bernie groups & a few Tulsi groups. Some of these ppl say they will write their candidate in, but many of them r eyeballing the Greens as a fallback. As l said b4, if they vote Green as a block & get their own progressive party. That could be the beginning if the end 4 the Dems if the new progressive party starts attracting progressive Dems 2 it. All that will be left would be blue dogs
Otoh, the Dems could survive as the Blue Dog party bcuz the repugs r going off the rails. I haven't realized until l wrote that brief summary of political parties above what u were saying about this 4T resembling the Civil War 4T. The Know Nothings infiltrated the Whigs, sending them off the rails. The Tea Partiers & other wingnutz r doing the same thing 2 the repugs, causing the moderates 2 invade the Democratic party , shifting it 2 the right, alienating long time old school Dems & younger ppl in general. These ppl will come 2gether & form a progressive party.2 counter the Blue Dog Dem party.
 Either way the country will survive the Donald, it will just come out worse 4 wear if he gets another 4 years. By 2024 the country should be ripe 4 a progressive (I think we already r, but anyhow) & while Bernie would probably be 2 old 2 run again, he has surrogates. Jeff Merkeley from OR comes 2 mind. The Jacobin Mag did a write up on Tammy Baldwin from WI recently. She sounds like a good successor 2 Bernie. Then there's always my homeboy Sherrod if we can get that clown out of the Governor's Mansion in 2022. Nina Turner is also a possiblity if she can remain relevant 4 the next few years. She has been making political waves this year & would would make a gr8 successor 2 Bernie since she is a dyed in the wool Berniecrat.
So we'll just have 2 see how this all rolls

I don't think the nation will survive 4 years of The Donald. At least, not in its current form. The reactionary Republicans would have too much resistance power, in their reactionary Courts, in the vote suppression and gerrymandering, in their Senate, and we can expect The Donald will amass even more dictatorial power. I'm not saying it won't happen though. The Democrats have a weak field, with the strongest candidate (Sanders) being the underdog as a "socialist" and Biden the other strong favorite fading, and none of the others can beat the Drumpf. And 2024 does look like the challenger wins the popular vote. But on the other hand, by then the Republicans might well have ended democracy (or the nation) as we know it, and my indicators won't matter.

I think the repugs will only fold if they are defeated in general elections. Berniebros and Berniecrats need to listen to Bernie. They need to know who the enemy is. The DNC, Biden, Buttigieg (who hasn't really cheated; there's only suspicions because he contributed funds to the Iowa caucus process), Bloomberg, Klobuchar et al may be inadequate, but they are NOT the enemy. Trump IS our enemy, and should only be looked upon as a criminal, an enemy, a dirty dog; not worthy of any respect. The only things to do with him is get him out of office and into jail. Until then, I don't think the Greens (a party I belonged to for almost 30 years, and might again) are a viable option now with such evil to confront. Mussolini can't be allowed to take over. The Greens may be a viable option at some point though.

Merkeley hasn't got the chops according to my scores (3-9), but Sherrod Brown (19-8) probably does, and possibly Tammy Baldwin (13-6) too. Mitch Landrieu (16-2) is the best option. Terry McAuliffe is from the moderate wing, but he is a winner, score 11-2 at least. He is an effective campaigner and fundraiser and supports whoever the Democrats nominate, including Bernie. I haven't heard that he is in the stop Bernie crowd.

Is Jill Stein part of the Green Party? Anyone know if she is running again?

(02-16-2020, 12:20 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-15-2020, 06:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-15-2020, 04:06 AM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-15-2020, 01:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]It's also a question of whether, if Bernie isn't nominated and many of his supporters bolt in 2020, will we survive as a country? 4 more years of Trump will be a major obstacle to this. The Republican Party is the one that needs to die. Like, yesterday.

If Bernie IS nominated, and the moderates bolt as a result, that could also endanger the Republic. The Dems need to be united against a transcendent evil this time. The question is whether they will be. If the country dies, I'm not sure it matters which party dies.

Sanders is the regeneracy candidate. If the Dems don't choose him, they may lose anyway, because the other candidates aren't up to the job of beating Trump, let alone setting a new course for the country. Bernie can do both, although "can" does not equal "will."

-- if Bernie wins the nomination those selfidentifying as Dems will vote 4 him. They're Vote Blue No Matter Who. It's the Berniecrats- ppl who r only voting Dem bcuz of Bernie- who will bolt.. They were suckerpunched in 2016- they expected the Dems 2 run honest primaries & not cheat-

Just as it's not wise to believe Tulsi's lies, it not wise to believe in this conspiracy theory crap either. Whatever bit of cheating there was made no difference in who was nominated in 2016. Now, if the superdelegates end up choosing someone besides Bernie after Bernie won a strong plurality of delegates, then that's when the Berniecrats might bolt.

Quote: so their response was mixed: some voted Green, others actually voted 4 the Donald, but most stayed home since they no longer had a dog in that fight.

Such Berniecrats were less than 20% of the total of Bernie primary voters, which were a small fraction of the general election vote.

Quote: This time around the Berniecrats r wary. They see Bloomberg trying 2 buy the election. They see Buttcheat trying to steal it with technology. They're with their guy all the way 2 the Convention but they're also considering plan Bs. I know. I belong 2 several Bernie groups & a few Tulsi groups. Some of these ppl say they will write their candidate in, but many of them r eyeballing the Greens as a fallback. As l said b4, if they vote Green as a block & get their own progressive party. That could be the beginning if the end 4 the Dems if the new progressive party starts attracting progressive Dems 2 it. All that will be left would be blue dogs
Otoh, the Dems could survive as the Blue Dog party bcuz the repugs r going off the rails. I haven't realized until l wrote that brief summary of political parties above what u were saying about this 4T resembling the Civil War 4T. The Know Nothings infiltrated the Whigs, sending them off the rails. The Tea Partiers & other wingnutz r doing the same thing 2 the repugs, causing the moderates 2 invade the Democratic party , shifting it 2 the right, alienating long time old school Dems & younger ppl in general. These ppl will come 2gether & form a progressive party.2 counter the Blue Dog Dem party.
 Either way the country will survive the Donald, it will just come out worse 4 wear if he gets another 4 years. By 2024 the country should be ripe 4 a progressive (I think we already r, but anyhow) & while Bernie would probably be 2 old 2 run again, he has surrogates. Jeff Merkeley from OR comes 2 mind. The Jacobin Mag did a write up on Tammy Baldwin from WI recently. She sounds like a good successor 2 Bernie. Then there's always my homeboy Sherrod if we can get that clown out of the Governor's Mansion in 2022. Nina Turner is also a possiblity if she can remain relevant 4 the next few years. She has been making political waves this year & would would make a gr8 successor 2 Bernie since she is a dyed in the wool Berniecrat.
So we'll just have 2 see how this all rolls

I don't think the nation will survive 4 years of The Donald. At least, not in its current form. The reactionary Republicans would have too much resistance power, in their reactionary Courts, in the vote suppression and gerrymandering, in their Senate, and we can expect The Donald will amass even more dictatorial power. I'm not saying it won't happen though. The Democrats have a weak field, with the strongest candidate (Sanders) being the underdog as a "socialist" and Biden the other strong favorite fading, and none of the others can beat the Drumpf. And 2024 does look like the challenger wins the popular vote. But on the other hand, by then the Republicans might well have ended democracy (or the nation) as we know it, and my indicators won't matter.

I think the repugs will only fold if they are defeated in general elections. Berniebros and Berniecrats need to listen to Bernie. They need to know who the enemy is. The DNC, Biden, Buttigieg (who hasn't really cheated; there's only suspicions because he contributed funds to the Iowa caucus process), Bloomberg, Klobuchar et al may be inadequate, but they are NOT the enemy. Trump IS our enemy, and should only be looked upon as a criminal, an enemy, a dirty dog; not worthy of any respect. The only things to do with him is get him out of office and into jail. Until then, I don't think the Greens (a party I belonged to for almost 30 years, and might again) are a viable option now with such evil to confront. Mussolini can't be allowed to take over. The Greens may be a viable option at some point though.

Merkeley hasn't got the chops according to my scores (3-9), but Sherrod Brown (19-8) probably does, and possibly Tammy Baldwin (13-6) too. Mitch Landrieu (16-2) is the best option. Terry McAuliffe is from the moderate wing, but he is a winner, score 11-2 at least. He is an effective campaigner and fundraiser and supports whoever the Democrats nominate, including Bernie. I haven't heard that he is in the stop Bernie crowd.

Is Jill Stein part of the Green Party? Anyone know if she is running again?

-- yes she is Green but I'm not sure if she's running again,or who any of the Green candidates r this year 4 that matter. The Green group l belong 2 is dominated by Bernie's candidacy

(02-16-2020, 01:55 AM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]-- yes she (Jill Stein) is Green but I'm not sure if she's running again,or who any of the Green candidates r this year 4 that matter. The Green group l belong 2 is dominated by Bernie's candidacy

I agree. If they can't back a candidacy so clearly in their lane, the Greens would immediately become another Lost Party of the Past. They want to be the future; they'll back Bernie. I'm less certain about others, even given the insanity that pursued after they deep-sixed both Gore and Hillary. After all, GWB was bad, and Trump is a travesty. I think Gore would have actually done what they claimed to desire. That one is still a mystery to me.

(02-16-2020, 08:05 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 01:55 AM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]-- yes she (Jill Stein) is Green but I'm not sure if she's running again,or who any of the Green candidates r this year 4 that matter. The Green group l belong 2 is dominated by Bernie's candidacy

I agree.  If they can't back a candidacy so clearly in their lane, the Greens would immediately become another Lost Party of the Past.  They want to be the future; they'll back Bernie.  I'm less certain about others, even given the insanity that pursued after they deep-sixed both Gore and Hillary.  After all, GWB was bad, and Trump is a travesty.  I think Gore would have actually done what they claimed to desire.  That one is still a mystery to me.

-- Gore had good ideas but he was stiff in public. He also picked a DINO turned repug 4 his VP, which turned alot of ppl off. He did not have the best relationship with Mr Bill, who could of campaigned 4 his VP & flipping states so Gore wouldn't of needed FL, which Jeb was determined 2 hand over 2 his brother. Finally the Supreme Court stopped counting the FL vote as soon as dubya pulled ahead, even tho there were more ballots 2 count. so we don't know who really won Fla.

l went 2 the Green Party website 2 see who's running this year. Jill is not (she declined) but a couple homeboyz r- Dennis Lambert & Dario Hunter- among others.
the full list is here:

https://www.gp.org/2020

l agree w/u about the Greens backing Bernie & courting his supporters so they'll vote Green in the general should Bernie not be on the ballot. Over 91 million voters stayed home in 2016. Not all of them were Berniecrats, but despite what Eric sez, a good chunk of them were, & all 91 million stayed home bcuz they felt they had no horse in the race. If the Greens can convince just 5% of the electorate 2 vote 4 their guy- viola! new party on the horizon

Eric Wrote:It's also a question of whether, if Bernie isn't nominated and many of his supporters bolt in 2020, will we survive as a country? 4 more years of Trump will be a major obstacle to this. The Republican Party is the one that needs to die. Like, yesterday.

If Bernie IS nominated, and the moderates bolt as a result, that could also endanger the Republic. The Dems need to be united against a transcendent evil this time. The question is whether they will be. If the country dies, I'm not sure it matters which party dies.

Sanders is the regeneracy candidate. If the Dems don't choose him, they may lose anyway, because the other candidates aren't up to the job of beating Trump, let alone setting a new course for the country. Bernie can do both, although "can" does not equal "will."

[quote =me earlier] if Bernie wins the nomination those selfidentifying as Dems will vote 4 him. They're Vote Blue No Matter Who. It's the Berniecrats- ppl who r only voting Dem bcuz of Bernie- who will bolt.. They were suckerpunched in 2016- they expected the Dems 2 run honest primaries & not cheat-
[/quote]

Eric Wrote:Just as it's not wise to believe Tulsi's lies, it not wise to believe in this conspiracy theory crap either. Whatever bit of cheating there was made no difference in who was nominated in 2016. Now, if the superdelegates end up choosing someone besides Bernie after Bernie won a strong plurality of delegates, then that's when the Berniecrats might bolt.

-- sez the dude who eats Hillhag's lies 4 breakfast, lunch, dinner, & a midnite snack

Eric, l'm not going over this w/u again. U were shown receipts, not just by me but by others on the old board when the cheating was going on. Just bcuz u choose 2 ignore them does not making the cheating any less real. By your own system Bernie should of won the primaries, his #s were better. So either your system sux or Hillhag & the DNC cheated. Take your pick

but u have reminded me of 2 more candidates 2b Bernie's successor: a) Tulsi, of course, but maybe not in 2024. 2028 or l8r. b) my homeboy Dennis, if he can make a comeback. Like Bernie, he's been talking the Talk & walking the Walk 4 decades, so he has authenticity on his side.  Un4tunately, not only was he talking that Talk back in the 3T, when very few ppl were interested, he looked like your kid brother, u know, the 1 u had 2 take with u everywhere. So which messenger r u gonna respond 2- the 1 who reminds u of that kid brother, or the 1 that reminds u of your Grandad? Anyhow, Dennis has aged quite well during the intervening years & looks quite the statesman. maybe he (or Nina) can run 4 Governor in 2022, which would free up Sherrod 2 run 4 Prez in 2024

me, earlier Wrote:-- so their response was mixed: some voted Green, others actually voted 4 the Donald, but most stayed home since they no longer had a dog in that fight.

Eric Wrote:Such Berniecrats were less than 20% of the total of Bernie primary voters, which were a small fraction of the general election vote.

-- Eric, check out this pie chart. 91+ million voters is not a small fraction, it's the largest piece of this pie. Not all of those non voters were Berniecrats but a good chunk of them were

-- 

me, eariler Wrote:--This time around the Berniecrats r wary. They see Bloomberg trying 2 buy the election. They see Buttcheat trying to steal it with technology. They're with their guy all the way 2 the Convention but they're also considering plan Bs. I know. I belong 2 several Bernie groups & a few Tulsi groups. Some of these ppl say they will write their candidate in, but many of them r eyeballing the Greens as a fallback. As l said b4, if they vote Green as a block & get their own progressive party. That could be the beginning if the end 4 the Dems if the new progressive party starts attracting progressive Dems 2 it. All that will be left would be blue dogs
Otoh, the Dems could survive as the Blue Dog party bcuz the repugs r going off the rails. I haven't realized until l wrote that brief summary of political parties above what u were saying about this 4T resembling the Civil War 4T. The Know Nothings infiltrated the Whigs, sending them off the rails. The Tea Partiers & other wingnutz r doing the same thing 2 the repugs, causing the moderates 2 invade the Democratic party , shifting it 2 the right, alienating long time old school Dems & younger ppl in general. These ppl will come 2gether & form a progressive party.2 counter the Blue Dog Dem party.
 Either way the country will survive the Donald, it will just come out worse 4 wear if he gets another 4 years. By 2024 the country should be ripe 4 a progressive (I think we already r, but anyhow) & while Bernie would probably be 2 old 2 run again, he has surrogates. Jeff Merkeley from OR comes 2 mind. The Jacobin Mag did a write up on Tammy Baldwin from WI recently. She sounds like a good successor 2 Bernie. Then there's always my homeboy Sherrod if we can get that clown out of the Governor's Mansion in 2022. Nina Turner is also a possiblity if she can remain relevant 4 the next few years. She has been making political waves this year & would would make a gr8 successor 2 Bernie since she is a dyed in the wool Berniecrat.
So we'll just have 2 see how this all rolls

Eric Wrote:I don't think the nation will survive 4 years of The Donald. At least, not in its current form. The reactionary Republicans would have too much resistance power, in their reactionary Courts, in the vote suppression and gerrymandering, in their Senate, and we can expect The Donald will amass even more dictatorial power. I'm not saying it won't happen though. The Democrats have a weak field, with the strongest candidate (Sanders) being the underdog as a "socialist" and Biden the other strong favorite fading, and none of the others can beat the Drumpf. And 2024 does look like the challenger wins the popular vote. But on the other hand, by then the Republicans might well have ended democracy (or the nation) as we know it, and my indicators won't matter.

-- l agree with u about Bernie being the strongest candidate. The DNC screws him over @ their own peril But I am curious about the Moon thing: u say the Moon b4 this years election favors the Donald & the Moon in 2024 favors the challenger. What challenger? in 2024 the WH will be up 4 grabs. Even if Bernie is not cheated out of the nom & wins the general, he'll be in his 80s in 2024 & will probably be a 1 termer. So either way the WH will be up 4 grabs

re: 4 more years of the Donald- maybe that's what it's gonna take 2 get this regeneracy going full steam. Bernie can show the Way, but the ppl have 2 follow it, & take on the Vampire Class. The Vampire class ain't giving nothing away. Maybe by 2024 ppl will realize that

Eric Wrote: I think the repugs will only fold if they are defeated in general elections. Berniebros and Berniecrats need to listen to Bernie. They need to know who the enemy is. The DNC, Biden, Buttigieg (who hasn't really cheated; there's only suspicions because he contributed funds to the Iowa caucus process), Bloomberg, Klobuchar et al may be inadequate, but they are NOT the enemy. Trump IS our enemy, and should only be looked upon as a criminal, an enemy, a dirty dog; not worthy of any respect. The only things to do with him is get him out of office and into jail. Until then, I don't think the Greens (a party I belonged to for almost 30 years, and might again) are a viable option now with such evil to confront. Mussolini can't be allowed to take over. The Greens may be a viable option at some point though.

-- re: Buttcheat- he paid 4 the software that ran the disasterous app & precinct captains reported it was flipping votes to him, not just Bernie votes, but from all the candidates. Now if this was just a software glitch, a coding error or whatever, shouldn't it be flipping votes 2 all the candidates @ random, not just 2 Buttcheat? I saw screenshots of Groper Joe's delegates & Amy K's delegates being assigned 2 Buttcheat, & then there's the infamous coin tosses, They must of been using the same coins from 2016 since Bernie, once again lost all the tosses. Hmmmmmm

Eric Wrote:Merkeley hasn't got the chops according to my scores (3-9), but Sherrod Brown (19-8) probably does, and possibly Tammy Baldwin (13-6) too. Mitch Landrieu (16-2) is the best option. Terry McAuliffe is from the moderate wing, but he is a winner, score 11-2 at least. He is an effective campaigner and fundraiser and supports whoever the Democrats nominate, including Bernie. I haven't heard that he is in the stop Bernie crowd.

 
-- Sherrod probably would of ran this year if it wasn't 4 that clown in the Governor's Mansion giving away his seat 2 some douchebag should he win. Hopefully we can get rid of his ass in 2022 so Sherrod can run in 2024

This fourth turning certainly feels much more like the 1850’s than the 1930’s. Millennials even have certain Xer traits like very low trust in institutions, low civic engagement (they vote at lower levels than boomers did at the same age + their union/marriage/religious attendance/military service rates are lower than that of even Xers), etc.

I do think this “cold civil war” era ends with the Left ultimately winning out since this civic generation going back to the 2004 election has consistently favored the Left and it’s policies but I worry about how this’ll play out for the nation.

(02-16-2020, 09:56 PM)Snowflake1996 Wrote: [ -> ]This fourth turning certainly feels much more like the 1850’s than the 1930’s. Millennials even have certain Xer traits like very low trust in institutions, low civic engagement (they vote at lower levels than boomers did at the same age + their union/marriage/religious attendance/military service rates are lower than that of even Xers), etc.

I do think this “cold civil war” era ends with the Left ultimately winning out since this civic generation going7 back to the 2004 election has consistently favored the Left and it’s policies but I worry about how this’ll play out for the nation.

-- hopefully we'll come out of it with Med4All & a Green New Deal 4 starters. Especially when it comes 2 kicking our Oil Jones which is the size of Jupiter or bigger. Maybe then we'll leave the Mideast alone, hopefully we'll stop blowing $ on wars in general & use it 4 infrastructure & the abovementioned programs

(02-16-2020, 10:52 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 09:56 PM)Snowflake1996 Wrote: [ -> ]This fourth turning certainly feels much more like the 1850’s than the 1930’s. Millennials even have certain Xer traits like very low trust in institutions, low civic engagement (they vote at lower levels than boomers did at the same age + their union/marriage/religious attendance/military service rates are lower than that of even Xers), etc.

I do think this “cold civil war” era ends with the Left ultimately winning out since this civic generation going7 back to the 2004 election has consistently favored the Left and it’s policies but I worry about how this’ll play out for the nation.

-- hopefully we'll come out of it with Med4All & a Green New Deal 4 starters. Especially when it comes 2 kicking our Oil Jones which is the size of Jupiter or bigger. Maybe then we'll leave the Mideast alone, hopefully we'll stop blowing $ on wars in general & use it 4 infrastructure & the abovementioned programs

This. I think the US military is one of the largest users of oil. Ya know, though addicts do very desperate things. So, how about a toss in of  a carbon tax coupled with all funds going to a UBI? Also, the  Dems need to learn to offer something to screw up Republican tax cuts pablum.  Like like "we'll use the Repub money for income tax credit expansion.

(02-16-2020, 09:56 PM)Snowflake1996 Wrote: [ -> ]This fourth turning certainly feels much more like the 1850’s than the 1930’s. Millennials even have certain Xer traits like very low trust in institutions, low civic engagement (they vote at lower levels than boomers did at the same age + their union/marriage/religious attendance/military service rates are lower than that of even Xers), etc.

I do think this “cold civil war” era ends with the Left ultimately winning out since this civic generation going back to the 2004 election has consistently favored the Left and it’s policies but I worry about how this’ll play out for the nation.

Consider some of the causes. The Millennial Generation is too rational to see religion as a solution -- yet -- to their problems. They saw far too much of televangelists making fools of themselves, and that is more effective than well-argued arguments by atheists against religion. Fraternal organizations have yet to figure how to attract them as they did the GI Generation. Corporate America has not been their friend, as their young-adult period has been one of limited opportunity (low, rigid glass ceilings).  The Millennial Generation has been far to the left of other generations in politics, especially among elected officials who simply do not understand current voters under 40. Unions? Corporate America and its political acolytes have done everything possible to destroy unions between "McJobs", a gig economy, long apprenticeships through temporary agencies, offshoring of industrial jobs, and a concerted effort to push "Right to Work" laws (which I cynically call "Duty to Starve" laws). Wages for young workers are depressed, and just to get college education necessary for holding a non-retail white-collar job one needs a high-cost college degree which has huge debt attached.  

The economy has become a grim contest to determine who will suffer the most yet put on that big, wide "Happy to Serve You!" smile. 

Other generations (Silent, Boom, and X) are about 5% more R than D -- and this generation is about 20% more D than R. You can see the disconnect between elected officials over 40 and this generation.

Will the Millennial Generation solve lots of problems? Sure -- in ways for which much of America will be unready.

(02-17-2020, 12:33 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 09:56 PM)Snowflake1996 Wrote: [ -> ]This fourth turning certainly feels much more like the 1850’s than the 1930’s. Millennials even have certain Xer traits like very low trust in institutions, low civic engagement (they vote at lower levels than boomers did at the same age + their union/marriage/religious attendance/military service rates are lower than that of even Xers), etc.

I do think this “cold civil war” era ends with the Left ultimately winning out since this civic generation going back to the 2004 election has consistently favored the Left and it’s policies but I worry about how this’ll play out for the nation.

Consider some of the causes. The Millennial Generation is too rational to see religion as a solution -- yet -- to their problems. They saw far too much of televangelists making fools of themselves, and that is more effective than well-argued arguments by atheists against religion. Fraternal organizations have yet to figure how to attract them as they did the GI Generation. Corporate America has not been their friend, as their young-adult period has been one of limited opportunity (low, rigid glass ceilings).  The Millennial Generation has been far to the left of other generations in politics, especially among elected officials who simply do not understand current voters under 40. Unions? Corporate America and its political acolytes have done everything possible to destroy unions between "McJobs", a gig economy, long apprenticeships through temporary agencies, offshoring of industrial jobs, and a concerted effort to push "Right to Work" laws (which I cynically call "Duty to Starve" laws). Wages for young workers are depressed, and just to get college education necessary for holding a non-retail white-collar job one needs a high-cost college degree which has huge debt attached.  

The economy has become a grim contest to determine who will suffer the most yet put on that big, wide "Happy to Serve You!" smile. 

Other generations (Silent, Boom, and X) are about 5% more R than D -- and this generation is about 20% more D than R. You can see the disconnect between elected officials over 40 and this generation.

Will the Millennial Generation solve lots of problems? Sure -- in ways for which much of America will be unready.

 

I agree with all of your points, especially regarding unions. Although we are halfway through the 4th turning now (Howe and others suspect that it’ll end around 2030, a solid 84 year old cycle from the start in 1946) and millennials have only shown two consistent signs of community spirit: increasing college attainment and social media. I’m not sure if these two connections will be enough to propel a regeneracy but we’ll see. Certainly these two forces are working in tandem with one another: it’s the college educated youth that are politically active on social media. These young adults are after all the the most quintessential group of millennials outlined by Strauss and Howe in Generations (minus the re-emergence of traditional gender roles which would likely only occur in the event of another world war). 

I look forward to seeing how millennials and similar-minded boomers such as yourself, Eric the Green, and my dad are able to work together politically to get us through this crisis. My hope is that this cold civil war is resolved peacefully between red and blue America.

(02-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]l agree w/u about the Greens backing Bernie & courting his supporters so they'll vote Green in the general should Bernie not be on the ballot. Over 91 million voters stayed home in 2016. Not all of them were Berniecrats, but despite what Eric sez, a good chunk of them were, & all 91 million stayed home bcuz they felt they had no horse in the race. If the Greens can convince just 5% of the electorate 2 vote 4 their guy- viola! new party on the horizon

If Bernie’s followers do that, Trump wins. If Trump wins, there’s a real possibility that our system of government won’t survive his second term. Barring that, it’s a given that our alliances will fail. So the world will look a lot less friendly to us, and the international trading system may collapse entirely.

That’s a heavy burden for the left ... one it may not survive in our lifetime.

(02-17-2020, 12:07 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 10:52 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 09:56 PM)Snowflake1996 Wrote: [ -> ]This fourth turning certainly feels much more like the 1850’s than the 1930’s. Millennials even have certain Xer traits like very low trust in institutions, low civic engagement (they vote at lower levels than boomers did at the same age + their union/marriage/religious attendance/military service rates are lower than that of even Xers), etc.

I do think this “cold civil war” era ends with the Left ultimately winning out since this civic generation going7 back to the 2004 election has consistently favored the Left and it’s policies but I worry about how this’ll play out for the nation.

-- hopefully we'll come out of it with Med4All & a Green New Deal 4 starters. Especially when it comes 2 kicking our Oil Jones which is the size of Jupiter or bigger. Maybe then we'll leave the Mideast alone, hopefully we'll stop blowing $ on wars in general & use it 4 infrastructure & the abovementioned programs

This. I think the US military is one of the largest users of oil. Ya know, though addicts do very desperate things. So, how about a toss in of  a carbon tax coupled with all funds going to a UBI? Also, the  Dems need to learn to offer something to screw up Republican tax cuts pablum.  Like like "we'll use the Repub money for income tax credit expansion.

-- gr8 graphic now here's a factoid 4 u: the gr8 majority of oil, like say 85% coming in2 this country is used 2 make cheap plastic shit. So even if you make electric vehicles, h2o powered vehicles, fart powered vehicles, whatever- & this is an admirable goal btw which s/b pursued. But you're still gonna have an Oil Jones bcuz ppl don't wanna give up their cheap plastic shit
But there's a solution: weed, in the 4m of hemp oil can b used 2 make both fuel & cheap plastic shit. It's also our #1 cash crop & it's growing away untaxed. So legalize it, tax it, & use the whole plant 4 both industrial & medicinal purposes. But that sounds 2 much like right, don't it?

The cheap plastic stuff will also go. To be sure, much of it goes into packaging -- but it it is only a matter of time before most states ban plastic bags for groceries and dry goods, and people recognize the cheap plastic stuff as irredeemably awful. We are entering the age in which scarcity is itself dying, and shoddy stuff will no longer be welcome.

(02-17-2020, 08:51 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]l agree w/u about the Greens backing Bernie & courting his supporters so they'll vote Green in the general should Bernie not be on the ballot. Over 91 million voters stayed home in 2016. Not all of them were Berniecrats, but despite what Eric sez, a good chunk of them were, & all 91 million stayed home bcuz they felt they had no horse in the race. If the Greens can convince just 5% of the electorate 2 vote 4 their guy- viola! new party on the horizon

If Bernie’s followers do that, Trump wins. If Trump wins, there’s a real possibility that our system of government won’t survive his second term. Barring that, it’s a given that our alliances will fail.  So the world will look a lot less friendly to us, and the international trading system may collapse entirely.

That’s a heavy burden for the left ... one it may not survive in our lifetime.

-- I've been doing my research on Bloomberg. He actually makes the Donald look good. Don't care 4 what I'm reading about Buttcheat either. But that's Bside the point of my post. If progressives can get our own viable party 2 build & be able 2 run progressive candidates , we won't need the Dems. We can. FINALLY get off their plantation

(02-19-2020, 05:27 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-17-2020, 08:51 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]l agree w/u about the Greens backing Bernie & courting his supporters so they'll vote Green in the general should Bernie not be on the ballot. Over 91 million voters stayed home in 2016. Not all of them were Berniecrats, but despite what Eric sez, a good chunk of them were, & all 91 million stayed home bcuz they felt they had no horse in the race. If the Greens can convince just 5% of the electorate 2 vote 4 their guy- viola! new party on the horizon

If Bernie’s followers do that, Trump wins. If Trump wins, there’s a real possibility that our system of government won’t survive his second term. Barring that, it’s a given that our alliances will fail.  So the world will look a lot less friendly to us, and the international trading system may collapse entirely.

That’s a heavy burden for the left ... one it may not survive in our lifetime.

-- I've been doing my research on Bloomberg. He actually makes the Donald look good. Don't care 4 what I'm reading about Buttcheat either. But that's Bside the point of my post. If progressives can get our own viable party 2 build & be able 2 run progressive candidates , we won't need the Dems. We can. FINALLY get off their plantation

On facebook I am battling a so-called Democrat who puts her Party first and will not support Bernie because he's a socialist and not a registered Democrat. And here we have our beloved Marypoza (butterfly) saying people should bolt and vote Green to teach Democrats a message if they don't nominate Bernie. 

I disagree. I have voted Green many times. I want a progressive Democratic Party and am voting for Bernie. But our country is more important than our Party. Unless you guys don't get your way, meaning that Democrats vote blue no matter who in 2020, then you won't have a country or a world in which to hold your Party. Face up to it. Don't evade your responsibility to vote blue no matter who against pure evil, tyranny and destruction this time in 2020.

Quote:

(02-16-2020, 04:37 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

Eric Wrote:It's also a question of whether, if Bernie isn't nominated and many of his supporters bolt in 2020, will we survive as a country? 4 more years of Trump will be a major obstacle to this. The Republican Party is the one that needs to die. Like, yesterday.

If Bernie IS nominated, and the moderates bolt as a result, that could also endanger the Republic. The Dems need to be united against a transcendent evil this time. The question is whether they will be. If the country dies, I'm not sure it matters which party dies.

Sanders is the regeneracy candidate. If the Dems don't choose him, they may lose anyway, because the other candidates aren't up to the job of beating Trump, let alone setting a new course for the country. Bernie can do both, although "can" does not equal "will."

[quote =me earlier] if Bernie wins the nomination those self-identifying as Dems will vote 4 him. They're Vote Blue No Matter Who. It's the Berniecrats- ppl who r only voting Dem bcuz of Bernie- who will bolt.. They were suckerpunched in 2016- they expected the Dems 2 run honest primaries & not cheat-

Eric Wrote:Just as it's not wise to believe Tulsi's lies, it not wise to believe in this conspiracy theory crap either. Whatever bit of cheating there was made no difference in who was nominated in 2016. Now, if the superdelegates end up choosing someone besides Bernie after Bernie won a strong plurality of delegates, then that's when the Berniecrats might bolt.

-- sez the dude who eats Hillhag's lies 4 breakfast, lunch, dinner, & a midnite snack

Eric, l'm not going over this w/u again. U were shown receipts, not just by me but by others on the old board when the cheating was going on. Just bcuz u choose 2 ignore them does not making the cheating any less real. By your own system Bernie should of won the primaries, his #s were better. So either your system sux or Hillhag & the DNC cheated. Take your pick

but u have reminded me of 2 more candidates 2b Bernie's successor: a) Tulsi, of course, but maybe not in 2024. 2028 or l8r. b) my homeboy Dennis, if he can make a comeback. Like Bernie, he's been talking the Talk & walking the Walk 4 decades, so he has authenticity on his side.  Un4tunately, not only was he talking that Talk back in the 3T, when very few ppl were interested, he looked like your kid brother, u know, the 1 u had 2 take with u everywhere. So which messenger r u gonna respond 2- the 1 who reminds u of that kid brother, or the 1 that reminds u of your Grandad? Anyhow, Dennis has aged quite well during the intervening years & looks quite the statesman. maybe he (or Nina) can run 4 Governor in 2022, which would free up Sherrod 2 run 4 Prez in 2024

There was no DNC cheating that could have made any difference in 2016. Your own written language is hard to read, but I try to read it as best I can.

I have researched this issue thoroughly and posted what I found here years ago. Being a Bernie fan first, if I had found that DNC cheating changed the outcome of the election, I would have said so. Whatever mistakes were made in New York were not the actions of the DNC. To claim so is just conspiracy theory, and conspiracy theory is crap; period end of story. Hillary won by 58 to 42% of the primary vote. Cheating in a few voting places in Nevada or a few polling places shut down in AZ or someone giving advance notice of debate questions to Hillary in a debate did not change the outcome. Yes, the DNC wanted Hillary to win, but the DNC does not dictate who people vote for. I don't know what you mean by "receipts," but I know the DNC did not withhold funding from Sanders once the campaign started.

Even if cheating DID give the nomination to Hillary, that does not mean that the Democratic candidate should not be supported in 2020, because we face existential threat if we do not.

So, will you keep your promise not to go over this with me again?

I admit I don't easily give in during discussions and debates. I have a stubborn streak. Of course, most people on these on-line forums have the same streak.

My system does not always predict who is nominated, and I don't claim so, as I point out in my article, book and website. Democrats are very good at picking losers, so they did that in 2016. She had a big advantage in organization, support and name recognition and started with 66% approval ratings, so she was hard to beat. But the system was right; she lost the general to the higher-scoring candidate.

Quote:

me, earlier Wrote:-- so their response was mixed: some voted Green, others actually voted 4 the Donald, but most stayed home since they no longer had a dog in that fight.

Eric Wrote:Such Berniecrats were less than 20% of the total of Bernie primary voters, which were a small fraction of the general election vote.

-- Eric, check out this pie chart. 91+ million voters is not a small fraction, it's the largest piece of this pie. Not all of those non voters were Berniecrats but a good chunk of them were

-- 

That pie chart is ridiculous, and you didn't say who made it.

Mary, I have read the figures, and I stand by what I read. 10% of Bernie primary voters stayed home and 10% defected to Trump. Similar numbers of Kasich and Rubio voters did the same. It was a wash. Primary voters are still a small percentage of general election voters. Bernie defectors did not give Trump his victory. Lots of things did. Indeed, Hillary was the wrong choice and was a weak candidate who didn't even campaign in the Rust Belt. Russian fake news bots and Comey's scandal-mongering had their effects too, as did voter suppression that kept many minorities off the ballot in Nov.2016.

Quote:

me, eariler Wrote:--This time around the Berniecrats r wary. They see Bloomberg trying 2 buy the election. They see Buttcheat trying to steal it with technology. They're with their guy all the way 2 the Convention but they're also considering plan Bs. I know. I belong 2 several Bernie groups & a few Tulsi groups. Some of these ppl say they will write their candidate in, but many of them r eyeballing the Greens as a fallback. As l said b4, if they vote Green as a block & get their own progressive party. That could be the beginning if the end 4 the Dems if the new progressive party starts attracting progressive Dems 2 it. All that will be left would be blue dogs
Otoh, the Dems could survive as the Blue Dog party bcuz the repugs r going off the rails. I haven't realized until l wrote that brief summary of political parties above what u were saying about this 4T resembling the Civil War 4T. The Know Nothings infiltrated the Whigs, sending them off the rails. The Tea Partiers & other wingnutz r doing the same thing 2 the repugs, causing the moderates 2 invade the Democratic party , shifting it 2 the right, alienating long time old school Dems & younger ppl in general. These ppl will come 2gether & form a progressive party.2 counter the Blue Dog Dem party.
 Either way the country will survive the Donald, it will just come out worse 4 wear if he gets another 4 years. By 2024 the country should be ripe 4 a progressive (I think we already r, but anyhow) & while Bernie would probably be 2 old 2 run again, he has surrogates. Jeff Merkeley from OR comes 2 mind. The Jacobin Mag did a write up on Tammy Baldwin from WI recently. She sounds like a good successor 2 Bernie. Then there's always my homeboy Sherrod if we can get that clown out of the Governor's Mansion in 2022. Nina Turner is also a possiblity if she can remain relevant 4 the next few years. She has been making political waves this year & would would make a gr8 successor 2 Bernie since she is a dyed in the wool Berniecrat.
So we'll just have 2 see how this all rolls

Eric Wrote:I don't think the nation will survive 4 years of The Donald. At least, not in its current form. The reactionary Republicans would have too much resistance power, in their reactionary Courts, in the vote suppression and gerrymandering, in their Senate, and we can expect The Donald will amass even more dictatorial power. I'm not saying it won't happen though. The Democrats have a weak field, with the strongest candidate (Sanders) being the underdog as a "socialist" and Biden the other strong favorite fading, and none of the others can beat the Drumpf. And 2024 does look like the challenger wins the popular vote. But on the other hand, by then the Republicans might well have ended democracy (or the nation) as we know it, and my indicators won't matter.

-- l agree with u about Bernie being the strongest candidate. The DNC screws him over @ their own peril But I am curious about the Moon thing: u say the Moon b4 this years election favors the Donald & the Moon in 2024 favors the challenger. What challenger? in 2024 the WH will be up 4 grabs. Even if Bernie is not cheated out of the nom & wins the general, he'll be in his 80s in 2024 & will probably be a 1 termer. So either way the WH will be up 4 grabs

re: 4 more years of the Donald- maybe that's what it's gonna take 2 get this regeneracy going full steam. Bernie can show the Way, but the ppl have 2 follow it, & take on the Vampire Class. The Vampire class ain't giving nothing away. Maybe by 2024 ppl will realize that

Yes that may happen, but I think Trump is an existential threat if he gets 4 more years. If a progressive wins in 2024 change will not go further than undoing some of Trump's damage. In 2028, the Moon indicator says the challenger will win again, and the 1T will be upon us, in which change is harder to make. Only if the Democrats nominate candidates that can win, will they rise above this moon indicator. This indicator is covered on my website of course; see part 2. http://philosopherswheel.com/presidentia...ions2.html

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Eric Wrote: I think the repugs will only fold if they are defeated in general elections. Berniebros and Berniecrats need to listen to Bernie. They need to know who the enemy is. The DNC, Biden, Buttigieg (who hasn't really cheated; there's only suspicions because he contributed funds to the Iowa caucus process), Bloomberg, Klobuchar et al may be inadequate, but they are NOT the enemy. Trump IS our enemy, and should only be looked upon as a criminal, an enemy, a dirty dog; not worthy of any respect. The only things to do with him is get him out of office and into jail. Until then, I don't think the Greens (a party I belonged to for almost 30 years, and might again) are a viable option now with such evil to confront. Mussolini can't be allowed to take over. The Greens may be a viable option at some point though.

-- re: Buttcheat- he paid 4 the software that ran the disasterous app & precinct captains reported it was flipping votes to him, not just Bernie votes, but from all the candidates. Now if this was just a software glitch, a coding error or whatever, shouldn't it be flipping votes 2 all the candidates @ random, not just 2 Buttcheat? I saw screenshots of Groper Joe's delegates & Amy K's delegates being assigned 2 Buttcheat, & then there's the infamous coin tosses, They must of been using the same coins from 2016 since Bernie, once again lost all the tosses. Hmmmmmm

Eric Wrote:Merkeley hasn't got the chops according to my scores (3-9), but Sherrod Brown (19-8) probably does, and possibly Tammy Baldwin (13-6) too. Mitch Landrieu (16-2) is the best option. Terry McAuliffe is from the moderate wing, but he is a winner, score 11-2 at least. He is an effective campaigner and fundraiser and supports whoever the Democrats nominate, including Bernie. I haven't heard that he is in the stop Bernie crowd.

 
-- Sherrod probably would of ran this year if it wasn't 4 that clown in the Governor's Mansion giving away his seat 2 some douchebag should he win. Hopefully we can get rid of his ass in 2022 so Sherrod can run in 2024

I hope so, because Sherrod is a strong candidate according to my scores, as long as he can clear his voice.

(02-20-2020, 12:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-19-2020, 05:27 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-17-2020, 08:51 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Marypoza Wrote: [ -> ]l agree w/u about the Greens backing Bernie & courting his supporters so they'll vote Green in the general should Bernie not be on the ballot. Over 91 million voters stayed home in 2016. Not all of them were Berniecrats, but despite what Eric sez, a good chunk of them were, & all 91 million stayed home bcuz they felt they had no horse in the race. If the Greens can convince just 5% of the electorate 2 vote 4 their guy- viola! new party on the horizon

If Bernie’s followers do that, Trump wins. If Trump wins, there’s a real possibility that our system of government won’t survive his second term. Barring that, it’s a given that our alliances will fail.  So the world will look a lot less friendly to us, and the international trading system may collapse entirely.

That’s a heavy burden for the left ... one it may not survive in our lifetime.

-- I've been doing my research on Bloomberg. He actually makes the Donald look good. Don't care 4 what I'm reading about Buttcheat either. But that's Bside the point of my post. If progressives can get our own viable party 2 build & be able 2 run progressive candidates , we won't need the Dems. We can. FINALLY get off their plantation

On facebook I am battling a so-called Democrat who puts her Party first and will not support Bernie because he's a socialist and not a registered Democrat. And here we have our beloved Marypoza (butterfly) saying people should bolt and vote Green to teach Democrats a message if they don't nominate Bernie. 

I disagree. I have voted Green many times. I want a progressive Democratic Party and am voting for Bernie. But our country is more important than our Party. Unless you guys don't get your way, meaning that Democrats vote blue no matter who in 2020, then you won't have a country or a world in which to hold your Party. Face up to it. Don't evade your responsibility to vote blue no matter who against pure evil, tyranny and destruction this time in 2020.

Let me add that, unlike the Republicans, Democrats tend to be a bit ornery. I can’t see Bloomberg buying this. It’s not Trump 2.0. I’m still baffled by the lack of closure, but Super Tuesday should resolve that.  The two most likely to be there at the end are Bernie and Pete/Amy. Only one gets through, so flip a coin.