Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

Full Version: The Maelstrom of Violence
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32
(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Kinser

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Well, first, Kinser is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone is doing the same thing as Kinser.

But he did assume another poster liar and predator, where I would not.

Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

Intensely.

And, as usual, minds who value different things are not apt to be shifted.

Where is there a need to degrade and insult a person with different values?  Economics is important.  If we can't afford it, we shouldn't pretend we can.  If we have an extraordinary division of wealth, we can.  If someone is so obsessed with his own wealth he can not care for the other guy, there is a problem.

Is that where you are at?  It is where you seem to be at.  I can not be sure as you go silent rather than say where you are really at.  I have to judge you by the arguments made.

And when to go to insult?  I go when the other guy is clearly not listening and a sledgehammer is the only way to get attention.  Does it work?  No.  Is it sometimes irresistibly tempting?  Yes.

Back to Kinser.  On what grounds did he proclaim the councilor unqualified.  Is he qualified to judge.  Was he there to judge.  When Pbower gave a sincere view of where he was at, was Kinser ready to say liar.  Where did predator come from?  Is it possible that Pbower who has come to care about quality of life is just seeking quality of life?  Is Kinser ready to listen to what he is told, or are does reality force his twisted re telling?

Different people just pursue different things in different ways.  When this gets in the way of others achieving their very different goals, there is a clash.  You do have to draw a line somewhere.  Mine is often near the poverty line, with a nod to HDHR 25.  Those who care not about Americans forced below that line get grumbled at with the occasional touch of the useless sledge hammer.

Can people acknowledge the poverty line exists?  Can they acknowledge there is a floor that should be covered with safety nets?  It is hard to get people with strong selfish economic interests to acknowledge this.  If so, we can cover what needs to be covered and within reason let the wealthy grab for the rest.  If they want to take from those who do not have, there is a need to grumble.

One aspect of listening is learning what those who disagree with you sincerely want.  If given, we can afford some degree of dog eat dog after that.

(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.

You're projecting.

I don't think so.  Not here.  Tell me where.  Are you going to tell me that you don't make economic arguments a lot?  Is Kinser going to say he cares for all, not just his own tribe?  Does everyone think along the same pattern?  Values lock is not simply crediting people who agree with you with more intelligence.  You fight it by trying to understand and respect the other perspectives, though the latter is often hard.
(09-23-2017, 01:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]What's your opinion of PB? Who is PB? This may surprise you, I didn't form my opinion/view of PB. The Republicans didn't form them of PB or you or any other blue poster for that matter. PB formed my opinion of him and my feelings toward him. PB and I are different people who handle situations/things and approach things differently. You are pretty loose with your use/understanding/view of vile stereotype, world views and values to explain/define our differences and opinions of each other.

Pbower likes classical stuff, apparently above my own highly selective tastes.  I'm really into a few well known classic pieces, but am otherwise more diverse.  Bach. Scott Joplin, Gershwin, Lennon.  All are cool from my perspective.  He leans heavily blue, likely heavier than I.  We disagree a lot on the Second Amendment and role of the Supreme Court.  I have no reason to go after him personally.  None.  Well, I'll be noisy when he repeats his opinions of the Second or the Supreme Court.  I'll let him speak on his own problems.

I didn't say all Republicans think anything of Pbower.  I said Kinser did.  That's different.  Yes, smaller taxes, spending less on Americans and providing bad medical coverage to the poor are part of the Unraveling memes.  I certainly would not be surprised by a general opinion by a Republican in that vague direction.  Liar and predator are problematic, much more personal.  There comes with such an assumption that anyone who uses government services does so in a spirit of hunting, that lying is a presumed common tool.

That is, at core, a stereotype.  Those from the other side supposedly think alike, it is fully assumed, and one can treat the opposition as if the stereotype is a universal truth.  No.  That degree of prejudice should not pass without firm comment.  I'm not saying that this doesn't go two ways.

In a way, I can see how Kinser comes from a place where he has seen many lying predators.  He can believe sincerely that his stereotype is true, even if it is not, even if his intense faith in this idea shapes his idea of the world.  I can also approve his rejection of the victim card, how one should burn it, be above it.  It often sets one back.  Some of Kinser's beliefs can be respected. honored, can certainly admired.

I'm often not thrilled by the way he chooses to express his ideas, but there is more than one way to speak and listen.

But I'll call out this stereotype.  Not everyone is as he believes.  Some have motivations which he doesn't respect or understand.
(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Values lock is not simply crediting people who agree with you with more intelligence.  You fight it by trying to understand and respect the other perspectives, though the latter is often hard.

Hard, eh? I guess that's why you don't bother to try to understand other perspectives.
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Kinser

I’m not into striped posts.

Then by all means post long form. I'm fine either way, but stripes are more my style so get used to it.

 
Quote:I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.

Then don't. I find that if two other people are having an A to B conversation it is prudent for me to C my way out of the area. It saves a lot of headaches.

Quote: Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

I that is true then we should hear less bitching from his end, or at least the standard blue "Trump is Hitler, ZOMG" bullshit. Yet PBR is known to whine about the most asinine of things. Seriously we're talking about a 60 something year old man who STILL whines to this day about his parents, both of whom are now dead and have been for some time.

Now, I know that I'm pretty low on the empathy here, but even you have to admit that there comes a point in time when an adult can no longer blame his parents for his problems. For most people that age is around 20 years old. I'm willing to be generious and say that if one is under 25 then you can blame your parents as a lot of people these days go to college, and well college is little more than a glorified high school. (Yes, I've been there. I dropped out to join the military because I knew I would hate it after a just a few semesters.)

Quote:But you have called his councilor unqualified,

The fact that his councilor is titled "councilor" indicates that he is not a psychologist and thus not qualified to diagnose anything. Ergo he is unqualified and PBR taking the at best educated guess of a somewhat astute amateur would be just the same as me taking medical advice as to my own health from the local veterinarian.

Quote: himself a liar-predator,

I've caught him in lies and he is a predator. Unlike many stereotypical predators he uses pity rather than violence or psychological manipulation as his weapon of choice.

Quote:and maligned the motives of politicians.

Really? Who? Where? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the eating results in controllable voting blocks that are kept at a minimal level of comfort on the verge of absolute destitution save they continue to elect their political masters then it becomes self-evident that even if the intent of the policy in question was morally positive the RESULT (which is what really matters) is morally negative.

In the case of welfare and entitlements we are far removed from when they were instated, and the politicians who created these programs are long out of office and in many cases long dead.

 
Quote:To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Great, we have another who can't come up with an original argument. Back to your papal bull meme again. When it comes to my view of PBR it is formed off of his statements and his actions. Is my interpretation of those statements and actions influenced by my world view? Yes, but whose isn't? Certainly not yours.

Quote:Well, I can’t tell you not to say bad things about politician motivations.

Technically you could, I'm just unlikely to listen though.

Quote: I suspect part of it was to attract voters who would benefit from welfare.

If you can suspect that, then how far is it to also suspect that once implemented you find yourself with a permanent underclass that votes reliably for the party that says they will increase their welfare payouts? It isn't hard to understand that politicians are motivated by gaining votes for whatever office they are running for. It isn't hard to understand that welfare recipients, regardless of color, want increases in their welfare benefits. The latter is a simple matter of economic self-interest.

Quote: I certainly won’t claim welfare as implemented today is ideal.

I find that any program or policy directed by humans is usually far from ideal. Our species is fallible.

 
Quote:Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

In the former there is private and religious charity and social fraternaties as there were in the 19th century. In the latter there is of course the family. After all, it is usually considered unconscionable to allow one's parents or children and so on starve.

Welfare as directed by the state must be a parasitic relationship though. Why? Because it is paid for by taking wealth from those who produce, by force (cause if you don't pay your taxes men with guns and blue uniforms show up and cart you off to a jail), and is given to those who do not. As for those currently on the dole I would say that a large number of them are parasites living at the expense of the body politic, and furthermore have every reason to do so because a welfare mother with 3 children in section 8 housing and on SNAP would have to make around 68K/year to maintain the lifestyle that is provided by welfare. Generally speaking such persons have neither the skills nor the resources to make that happen, otherwise they would.

Now, if you're done making an ass of yourself Bob I need to make other posts.
(09-23-2017, 09:37 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Values lock is not simply crediting people who agree with you with more intelligence.  You fight it by trying to understand and respect the other perspectives, though the latter is often hard.

I guess that's why you don't bother to try to understand other perspectives.

That does not answer.  As usual, when you are on the poor side of an argument, you go silent.
(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Well, first, Kinser is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone is doing the same thing as Kinser.

Oh please, you sound like you've never seen a black man who is conservative on some issues before. Which if you've ever seen a black man at all, you've probably seen a black man who is conservative on some issues.

Quote:But he did assume another poster liar and predator, where I would not.

So when you catch someone in a bald face lie they aren't a liar to you? And someone who is suckling at the government teat without actually working for said government isn't at the very least a parasite to you? Me thinks you need to look up the words liar and parasite. Mr. Dictionary is your friend.

Quote:Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

When it comes to Warren, he can answer as he sees fit. For me, I value liberty, particularly economic liberty far more than I do equality. Indeed I would go so far as to say that equality is the polar opposite of liberty. Given the choice between being free to make my own way, or being equally poor, equally stupid and equally degraded with everyone else.

Quote:Where is there a need to degrade and insult a person with different values?

I usually don't degrade and insult others regardless their values unless they demonstrate to me that they deserve it.

Quote:  Economics is important.  If we can't afford it, we shouldn't pretend we can.  If we have an extraordinary division of wealth, we can.  If someone is so obsessed with his own wealth he can not care for the other guy, there is a problem.

No. If we have a wide spread of incomes then that means that we need more economic freedom not some forced equality to some level. Socialism has failed EVERYWHERE it has been tried and that includes so-called Democratic Socialism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgdtHewGR0

Quote:Back to Kinser.  On what grounds did he proclaim the councilor unqualified.

As stated in my previous post. The man's title is "councilor".

Quote:  Is he qualified to judge.  Was he there to judge.

Yes. I understand how titles work just like most adults of normal intelligence. No, but that is irrelevant.

 
Quote:When Pbower gave a sincere view of where he was at, was Kinser ready to say liar.  Where did predator come from?  Is it possible that Pbower who has come to care about quality of life is just seeking quality of life?  Is Kinser ready to listen to what he is told, or are does reality force his twisted re telling?

I have a hard time that PBR can be sincere about anything. As I've said previously, a man who lacks anything he would die for or kill for also lacks anything worth living for. You should watch the cartoon I linked to. But in case you missed it, PBR uses the natural empathy of other people against them to make them feel sorry for him so he can acquire something from them.

Quote:Different people just pursue different things in different ways.  When this gets in the way of others achieving their very different goals, there is a clash.  You do have to draw a line somewhere.  Mine is often near the poverty line, with a nod to HDHR 25.  Those who care not about Americans forced below that line get grumbled at with the occasional touch of the useless sledge hammer.

If the borders are controlled, and needless regulations lifted and taxes lowered just about everyone can find a job to lift them above the poverty line. For those able but unwilling to work I could care less if they starve. I'm not one to quote the Bible often but....

the apostle Paul Wrote:For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

2 Thessalonians 3:10

I would say that there are a few basic exceptions to that. Those too young to work, those too old to work, those too sick to work. Oh and going to school counts as work.

Quote:Can people acknowledge the poverty line exists?

Only a fool would make a claim that poverty does not exist.

Quote: Can they acknowledge there is a floor that should be covered with safety nets?

Then explain to me how that now that there is a welfare state in the US there is more poverty not less, and what is more is that there is more children in poverty not fewer. And that is before we get into the other factors are very socially important (single parenthood, etc, etc, etc).

 
Quote:It is hard to get people with strong selfish economic interests to acknowledge this.

I would not say that selfishness is inherently negative. But then again I subscribe to Master Morality anyway. See my posts on Nietzsche.

Quote: If so, we can cover what needs to be covered and within reason let the wealthy grab for the rest.  If they want to take from those who do not have, there is a need to grumble.

1. How can you take something from someone who doesn't possess that something? The Logic is weak with this one.

2. There is. I prescribe charity (religious or civic), family, and state/local government programs (if there are going to be any government programs at all).

Quote:One aspect of listening is learning what those who disagree with you sincerely want.  If given, we can afford some degree of dog eat dog after that.

Actually it is more expensive to eat dog food or cat food than i would be to buy a pouch of tuna at the local bodega. In fact to save money our vet told us that feeding the cat boiled chicken would serve them fine, as a bonus the chihuahua can eat it too. Buy a stewing hen, and boil the fuck out of it and we have both pet food and soup stock.

I strongly suspect you don't go to the grocery store in your household. The average can of pork and beans is far less than the average can of alpo. Never mind the fact that you could get corned beef hash which is essentially what dog food is for far less as well. And don't even get me started on the rice and beans diet.

I swear what is it with boomers and beans and rice being associated with poverty. I've experienced real poverty, that is when you have neither beans nor rice.

That being said, eating dog food on occasion is not recognized as being harmful.
(09-23-2017, 07:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Not everyone is as he believes. 

I've encountered people like that.  They are often much worse than I ever suspected.
(09-23-2017, 10:38 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

When it comes to Warren, he can answer as he sees fit.

Not much point in answering someone who fails to understand that goods and services which must be consumed for any quality of life must be produced somehow, and thus that quality of life is inherently about economics.  And even if he could understand that, he's admitted he doesn't understand economics, so he wouldn't be able to understand the explanations anyway.
(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.
Then don't.  I find that if two other people are having an A to B conversation it is prudent for me to C my way out of the area.  It saves a lot of headaches.

I am familiar with the method.  Once upon a time, a 'teacher' would give two bad options and try to force each student to embrace a bad choice.  C was practically required.  I still wonder what would have happened if I had encounter Thoreau's Civil Disobedience before he so kindly invited me down to the office for taking a quite defensible choice C.

But if the choice is be tween speaking and silence, C is not an option, and guess which choice is the more likely?

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ] Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

I that is true then we should hear less bitching from his end, or at least the standard blue "Trump is Hitler, ZOMG" bullshit.  Yet PBR is known to whine about the most asinine of things.

Feel free to jump on that.  Thing is, I don't see the logic as particularly partisan.  The red flavor just involves comparing a Democrat with an autocratic 20th century party or leader.  Generally, don't anticipate the old 20th century autocratic parties or leaders to match up with today.  It's a particularly bad sort of argument.  Jump on it.  You might get a "me too".

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]But you have called his councilor unqualified,

The fact that his councilor is titled "councilor" indicates that he is not a psychologist and thus not qualified to diagnose anything.  Ergo he is unqualified and PBR taking the at best educated guess of a somewhat astute amateur would be just the same as me taking medical advice as to my own health from the local veterinarian.

I'm no great expert, but there is a different sorts of folks qualified to treat mental disease.  Some prescribe drugs.  There is in many states a link of titles to roles.  If it is like other professions, the better the degree, the more compensation.  I wouldn't expect too much more than you pay for.

I can respect a decision to stick with the top of the list, but it is a personal decision, and your personal decision.  You are not the pope to try to force your options on all.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]himself a liar-predator,

I've caught him in lies and he is a predator.  Unlike many stereotypical predators he uses pity rather than violence or psychological manipulation as his weapon of choice.

I won't say there aren't liars or predators out there.  People from different environments may have seem more or fewer.  Your jump is premature.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]and maligned the motives of politicians.

Really?  Who?  Where?  The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  If the eating results in controllable voting blocks that are kept at a minimal level of comfort on the verge of absolute destitution save they continue to elect their political masters then it becomes self-evident that even if the intent of the policy in question was morally positive the RESULT (which is what really matters) is morally negative.

In the case of welfare and entitlements we are far removed from when they were instated, and the politicians who created these programs are long out of office and in many cases long dead.

You describe well the Democrats of the Great Society era well, and point out that they were doing what politicians do... serve the people, and serve the people in an arguably harmful way that builds popularity and power.  Don't pretend you haven't advocated populist politicians.  Banning or flaming against people who find politicians flawed would ban or flame a lot of people.

I personally think, assuming the US remains recognizable, that there will be more people paying into the system than abusing it.  I oppose welfare of the employable as a way of life.  Make as many helpful suggestions as you please.  I have trouble with the extreme partisan who is always ready to see one extreme or the other, in this case always seeing liar predators on one side or innocent victims needing help on the other.  Let's learn to tell the difference and act accordingly.

 
(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Great, we have another who can't come up with an original argument.  Back to your papal bull meme again.  When it comes to my view of PBR it is formed off of his statements and his actions.  Is my interpretation of those statements and actions influenced by my world view?  Yes, but whose isn't?  Certainly not yours.

You do dictate, confuse your opinions with objective reality more than most.  Yes, everyone's opinions will tend to follow their worldview.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence. Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

In the former there is private and religious charity and social fraternities as there were in the 19th century.  In the latter there is of course the family.  After all, it is usually considered unconscionable to allow one's parents or children and so on starve.

Welfare as directed by the state must be a parasitic relationship though.  Why?  Because it is paid for by taking wealth from those who produce, by force (cause if you don't pay your taxes men with guns and blue uniforms show up and cart you off to a jail), and is given to those who do not.  As for those currently on the dole I would say that a large number of them are parasites living at the expense of the body politic, and furthermore have every reason to do so because a welfare mother with 3 children in section 8 housing and on SNAP would have to make around 68K/year to maintain the lifestyle that is provided by welfare.  Generally speaking such persons have neither the skills nor the resources to make that happen, otherwise they would.

Go back to the 19th century?  Really?  In this day and age, that is a non starter.  I know Trump is intuitive and unconventional, but that's beyond even him.

You are using the anarchy argument there.  If you don't obey, guys with guns will show up, yada yada yada.  If you are going to support the leader of the US Republican party, using the anarchy argument is inconsistent at best.  Granted, there is a great deal of truth to it.  The basis of all government is force.  This doesn't mean humankind isn't a political animal who will form groups, claim territory, make laws, etc...  Stepping back all the way to the anarchy argument is not to my mind appropriate.  It pretends to make people into non people.

***

As an aside, if you are going to invoke and respect conflicting values, if you are going to fight values lock, it is nigh on inevitable that you are going to encounter more simple values systems held by others.  A more nuanced system that respects more than one point of view will be unacceptable to a partisan looking to keep it simple.  Do you acknowledge the problem?
(09-23-2017, 11:50 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 11:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:
Quote:It's a matter of perception, and I can think of two attributes of you to which you admit.

Perception matters, you've chosen to perceive yourself as a victim and thus you become one.  You're not prey, you're a predator, but instead of using strength or intellect or even cunning to achieve your ends you use pathetic-ness.  You are a vampire and your blood is the altruism of others.  Indeed I'd say that if you were a Rick and Morty character you'd be Jerry.    I recommend watching season 3 episode 5.

http://www.toonova.net/rick-and-morty-se...-episode-5

I'd rather not be a victim. My parents mishandled me because I didn't create any problems. The K-12 educational system saw me as a model student, and again I didn't create any problems. I was the sort to run away from fights, and I played by the rules. Be a conformist, but don't be perfect at it? I was a satisfying compromise.

But had I known I would have done many things differently.

What do you think your parents should have done differently?  What would you have done differently?

If you were a model student, did you go to college?  What degree did you get?

University of California, Berkeley. Economics.
(09-23-2017, 01:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Kinser

I’m not into striped posts.  I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.  Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Well, I can’t tell you not to say bad things about politician motivations.  I suspect part of it was to attract voters who would benefit from welfare.  I certainly won’t claim welfare as implemented today is ideal.  Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.  You just can not and will not listen.  You will instead just keep feeding your stereotype to somebody you think must live it.  It must be so.  Your prejudice says so.

Yes.  He has had a different life experience than you.  Yes.  He sees how the world works differently from you.  No, disagreeing with you does not make him stupid, or you.  He has lived in a different world and seeks different solutions to different problems.

We now return to our regularly scheduled stripes.
What's your opinion of PB? Who is PB? This may surprise you, I didn't form my opinion/view of PB. The Republicans didn't form them of PB or you or any other blue poster for that matter. PB formed my opinion of him and my feelings toward him. PB and I are different people who handle situations/things and approach things differently. You are pretty loose with your use/understanding/view of vile stereotype, world views and values to explain/define our differences and opinions of each other.

I am PB.

You have formed opinions of me. You could not fail to do so. Asperger's syndrome without diagnosis has practically made a stereotype out of me. I have had to cope despite having abilities that should have allowed me to thrive.

The paradox is that this nearly-merciless society (and it is that) at the least recognizes handicaps as things to deal with instead of as excuses for shutting people out of life. America accommodates deafness, blindness, and wheelchair use well enough because those are obvious. Mental illness? Most of it is connected to drug abuse and alcoholism, so it is suspect. Asperger's? At least I am not crazy, stupid, deluded, or evil.
(09-23-2017, 10:38 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Well, first, Kinser is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone is doing the same thing as Kinser.

Oh please, you sound like you've never seen a black man who is conservative on some issues before.  Which if you've ever seen a black man at all, you've probably seen a black man who is conservative on some issues.

That would assume I have a bin labeled ‘conservative black’.  Everyone in the bin is considered alike.  I would supposedly act on that presumption freely.

Frankly, you are pretty unique.  If you really act on such stereotype, you miss a lot.  I’m pretty unique too, I think.  I hope my unwillingness to submit to stereotype isn’t part of my uniqueness.

But there is an assumption here of stereotype, that I do treat all conservative blacks alike.  Wrong.  Regarding human beings, figuring out values is part of it.  Thus, you are already more than a pigmentation level and position on the classic liberal - conservative continuum.  If all I am or all anyone is to you is a pigmentation level and a position of the liberal - conservative continuum, no wonder you are so far off in your judgements.  We are more than that.

There is a too often seen pattern on these forums.  Something real is turned into something else and stomped on.   Somehow, it is assumed that the something real is damaged in the process.  My way of thought has been badly misrepresented.  One comes to assume that if you do it often to me, you do it often to everyone.  I feel like this has happened.  As long as you are so obsessed on your stereotypes, can’t or won’t see the reality, it will continue to happen.

***

I proposed that a perspective that tries to encompass both sides of the story, a more nuanced view, will always be more complex than a nuanced perspective that sees only one side.  In the same way an attempt to be scientific rather than partisan political will often be more complex.  I’m feeling my current problem is simple world views that try to prove rather that describe.  They won’t accept nuance.

Not quite sure yet what to do with it.
(09-24-2017, 12:53 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]Not much point in answering someone who fails to understand that goods and services which must be consumed for any quality of life must be produced somehow, and thus that quality of life is inherently about economics.  And even if he could understand that, he's admitted he doesn't understand economics, so he wouldn't be able to understand the explanations anyway.

Warren is into one obsolete and questionable school of economics. I'll let others better trained go after the nuances. The key is that his school has failed whenever tried. That makes much of what he says useless or worse. Touching foils with Just Passing Through taught the futility of going up against a true believer unless you are as much into his specialty as the true believer. Thus, I watch from the background and quietly smile.

But he is that values locked flavor of useless. He will not listen or change. He has found a system that tells him what he wants to hear. He will speak as if empowered. He is quite capable of convincing those already convinced.

But on a positive note, he is very much into political correctness. Oh. Except. Warren, what is the politically correct way to refer to members of the prominent German party during World War II? I wouldn't want to hurt your delicate sensibilities.
(09-24-2017, 07:15 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 11:50 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 11:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:
Quote:It's a matter of perception, and I can think of two attributes of you to which you admit.

Perception matters, you've chosen to perceive yourself as a victim and thus you become one.  You're not prey, you're a predator, but instead of using strength or intellect or even cunning to achieve your ends you use pathetic-ness.  You are a vampire and your blood is the altruism of others.  Indeed I'd say that if you were a Rick and Morty character you'd be Jerry.    I recommend watching season 3 episode 5.

http://www.toonova.net/rick-and-morty-se...-episode-5

I'd rather not be a victim. My parents mishandled me because I didn't create any problems. The K-12 educational system saw me as a model student, and again I didn't create any problems. I was the sort to run away from fights, and I played by the rules. Be a conformist, but don't be perfect at it? I was a satisfying compromise.

But had I known I would have done many things differently.

What do you think your parents should have done differently?  What would you have done differently?

If you were a model student, did you go to college?  What degree did you get?

University of California, Berkeley. Economics.

In retrospect, yeah, not a great degree for aspies.  The natural follow on would be an MBA and a job that involved lots of human interaction - the kind of job aspies are worst at.

Still, my degree is not in what I'm now doing either.
I wish that it had been psychology so that I would have been 'introduced' to the topic in Abnormal Psychology. I would have recognized myself.

Oh, so you can't stand rock concerts because they are just too loud? That would have been a tip-off.
(09-24-2017, 04:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I wish that it had been psychology so that I would have been 'introduced' to the  topic in Abnormal Psychology. I would have recognized myself.  

Oh, so you can't stand rock concerts because they are just too loud? That would have been a tip-off.

Why do you think knowing about the issue would have been better?  What would you have done differently with your life?
(09-24-2017, 12:53 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 10:38 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

When it comes to Warren, he can answer as he sees fit.

Not much point in answering someone who fails to understand that goods and services which must be consumed for any quality of life must be produced somehow, and thus that quality of life is inherently about economics.  And even if he could understand that, he's admitted he doesn't understand economics, so he wouldn't be able to understand the explanations anyway.

Ultimately everything boils down to acquisition of goods and services so failure to understand at least a basic level of economics really is a failure to really understand anything.
(09-24-2017, 06:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.
Then don't.  I find that if two other people are having an A to B conversation it is prudent for me to C my way out of the area.  It saves a lot of headaches.

I am familiar with the method.  Once upon a time, a 'teacher' would give two bad options and try to force each student to embrace a bad choice.  C was practically required.  I still wonder what would have happened if I had encounter Thoreau's Civil Disobedience before he so kindly invited me down to the office for taking a quite defensible choice C.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  But I will say this about Thoreau, I have always found his works to be rather insipid, but then again Fredrick Douglas has always resonated with me more strongly than any of the trancendentalists who mostly scribbled what looks like woo-woo on the level that Eric posts every day.

Quote:But if the choice is be tween speaking and silence, C is not an option, and guess which choice is the more likely?

Well knowing you Bob, you'd rather remove all doubt than not remove all doubt.  If the choice is between speaking and silence in a conversation between two other individuals to which I was not invited, I prefer to keep my silence.  It is far better to be silent and have people think you a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.


(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]But you have called his councilor unqualified,

The fact that his councilor is titled "councilor" indicates that he is not a psychologist and thus not qualified to diagnose anything.  Ergo he is unqualified and PBR taking the at best educated guess of a somewhat astute amateur would be just the same as me taking medical advice as to my own health from the local veterinarian.

I'm no great expert, but there is a different sorts of folks qualified to treat mental disease.  Some prescribe drugs.  There is in many states a link of titles to roles.  If it is like other professions, the better the degree, the more compensation.  I wouldn't expect too much more than you pay for.

I can respect a decision to stick with the top of the list, but it is a personal decision, and your personal decision.  You are not the pope to try to force your options on all.[/quote]

I don't think the Pope himself has the power to force his opinion on anyone, otherwise there would be no Protestants.  In any event, it does not take a doctorate degree to understand that title reflects one's education.  Given the choice between taking the mumbling of a drug addict councilor who may or may not deal with persons on the Spectrum in any professional capacity or desiring a diagnosis from a licensed specialist (and I assure you Michigan does require psychologists to be licensed) is not a matter of preference.

One is an at best educated guess, the other is an actual diagnosis.  What is telling is that PBR glommed onto this so-called diagnosis as soon as it was no longer reasonable for him to blame his parents for every single one of his failings.  Given his history I have every aspect that he was looking for a new excuse now that the old one was no longer feasible.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]himself a liar-predator,

I've caught him in lies and he is a predator.  Unlike many stereotypical predators he uses pity rather than violence or psychological manipulation as his weapon of choice.

I won't say there aren't liars or predators out there.  People from different environments may have seem more or fewer.  Your jump is premature.[/quote]

If someone lies then they are a liar.  If someone actively seeks to take advantage of a weakness or weaknesses in others then they are a predator.  I try to avoid one of those behaviors.

My jump was not premature, it took me years to conclude that he is every bit exactly like the character Jerry from Rick and Morty.  The unfortunate aspect of this realization is that I'm essentially Rick.

I recommend watching the series if you can stomach adult cartoons.

(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]and maligned the motives of politicians.

Really?  Who?  Where?  The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  If the eating results in controllable voting blocks that are kept at a minimal level of comfort on the verge of absolute destitution save they continue to elect their political masters then it becomes self-evident that even if the intent of the policy in question was morally positive the RESULT (which is what really matters) is morally negative.

In the case of welfare and entitlements we are far removed from when they were instated, and the politicians who created these programs are long out of office and in many cases long dead.

You describe well the Democrats of the Great Society era well, and point out that they were doing what politicians do... serve the people, and serve the people in an arguably harmful way that builds popularity and power.  Don't pretend you haven't advocated populist politicians. [/quote]

I did describe them accurately, and it also applies to the current crop of Dims too.  As for populist politicans, actually I haven't.  Daddy isn't a politician which is why the Swamp hates him.  

 
Quote:Banning or flaming against people who find politicians flawed would ban or flame a lot of people.

I'm going to "flame" whomever I choose to, for whatever reason I choose too.  If that hurts your fee fees I don't care.  Fuck your fee fees!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...id=5749210

As for banning...I'm not interested in banning anyone unless they're up on the forum posting tons of spam or porn or something.  

Quote:I personally think, assuming the US remains recognizable, that there will be more people paying into the system than abusing it.

This is a failure to understand basic economics that I assume Warren will bring up at some point.  Let me put it simply.  More people have to be working and paying taxes to pay for what we have now.  Otherwise it will collapse.  Socialism is inherently unstable, eventually you always run out of other people's money.

Quote: I oppose welfare of the employable as a way of life.  Make as many helpful suggestions as you please.

Yeah it is called get a job or go to school.  If one is able bodied and doesn't do either, then he isn't ENTITLED to shit.  I have no problem with welfare for the actually disabled (and no PBR being on the autistic spectrum doesn't fucking count), the very young, the very old and the very sick.  If my desire to have able bodied people in education or employment for their livelihood makes me a monster, so be it.

Quote: I have trouble with the extreme partisan who is always ready to see one extreme or the other, in this case always seeing liar predators on one side or innocent victims needing help on the other.  Let's learn to tell the difference and act accordingly.

 I would say that it is you who needs to learn the difference, not myself.  My bullshit detector is in perfect working order, yours is suspect.

Quote:
(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Great, we have another who can't come up with an original argument.  Back to your papal bull meme again.  When it comes to my view of PBR it is formed off of his statements and his actions.  Is my interpretation of those statements and actions influenced by my world view?  Yes, but whose isn't?  Certainly not yours.

You do dictate, confuse your opinions with objective reality more than most.  Yes, everyone's opinions will tend to follow their worldview.

This is merely projection.  Here you are doing precisely that and yet cliaming I'm doing so.  As I've said my views of other board members are based on their statements and posts through out the years.  It doesn't get more objective than that.

Quote:
(09-23-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence. Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

In the former there is private and religious charity and social fraternities as there were in the 19th century.  In the latter there is of course the family.  After all, it is usually considered unconscionable to allow one's parents or children and so on starve.

Welfare as directed by the state must be a parasitic relationship though.  Why?  Because it is paid for by taking wealth from those who produce, by force (cause if you don't pay your taxes men with guns and blue uniforms show up and cart you off to a jail), and is given to those who do not.  As for those currently on the dole I would say that a large number of them are parasites living at the expense of the body politic, and furthermore have every reason to do so because a welfare mother with 3 children in section 8 housing and on SNAP would have to make around 68K/year to maintain the lifestyle that is provided by welfare.  Generally speaking such persons have neither the skills nor the resources to make that happen, otherwise they would.

Go back to the 19th century?  Really?  In this day and age, that is a non starter.

Yeah well there not being a Soviet Union was once thought to be a "non starter" too, and yet here we are a quarter century without the USSR.  Seriously the dissolution of the USSR took Washington completely by surprise.  Perhaps a total collapse  of the welfare state will take you by surprise.

Quote: I know Trump is intuitive and unconventional, but that's beyond even him.

No it isn't.  He simply needs to not do anything and it will come down on its own.  That is precisely his plan with Obamacare, he is actually using the inability of the "conservative" side of the Uniparty to do anything against them.

Quote:You are using the anarchy argument there.  If you don't obey, guys with guns will show up, yada yada yada.  If you are going to support the leader of the US Republican party, using the anarchy argument is inconsistent at best.

As Philip Johnson said:  The first complete sentence out of my mouth was probably that line about consistency being the hobgoblin of small minds.


Quote: Granted, there is a great deal of truth to it.  The basis of all government is force.  This doesn't mean humankind isn't a political animal who will form groups, claim territory, make laws, etc...  Stepping back all the way to the anarchy argument is not to my mind appropriate.  It pretends to make people into non people.

Are you stupid?  Government is force, it has always been force, and always will be force.  The main difference between a state's government and the mafia is that the government on occasion throws a public popularity contest where as the mafia has no need for such extravagances.

Man in his primordial state is in a state of anarchy.  Indeed I'd go so far as to say that anarchy is man's natural state, and wanting to have civilization yet remain as close to the natural state as possible I have slowly, accepted that minarchism is a requirement to maintain civilization.

As for your last question I don't think it possible for me to ever satisfactorily answer it for you.
(09-24-2017, 11:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 10:38 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Well, first, Kinser is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone is doing the same thing as Kinser.

Oh please, you sound like you've never seen a black man who is conservative on some issues before.  Which if you've ever seen a black man at all, you've probably seen a black man who is conservative on some issues.

That would assume I have a bin labeled ‘conservative black’.  Everyone in the bin is considered alike.  I would supposedly act on that presumption freely.

So clearly you didn't understand my post at all.
(09-24-2017, 05:19 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 04:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I wish that it had been psychology so that I would have been 'introduced' to the  topic in Abnormal Psychology. I would have recognized myself.  

Oh, so you can't stand rock concerts because they are just too loud? That would have been a tip-off.

Why do you think knowing about the issue would have been better?  What would you have done differently with your life?


Knowing about a problem can put one in a better position in which to deal with it. I would have realized that being smart enough to do the job is not enough.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32