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(09-24-2017, 09:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 11:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 10:38 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 01:20 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]Don't assume that because that's your method of assessment, that Kinser is doing the same thing.  He does have data for his assessments, though he is also making some

Well, first, Kinser is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone is doing the same thing as Kinser.

Oh please, you sound like you've never seen a black man who is conservative on some issues before.  Which if you've ever seen a black man at all, you've probably seen a black man who is conservative on some issues.

That would assume I have a bin labeled ‘conservative black’.  Everyone in the bin is considered alike.  I would supposedly act on that presumption freely.

So clearly you didn't understand my post at all.

Possibly not.  You are a rational sentient being, and should be treated as such, as unique, as judged by yourself rather than your skin pigmentation.  I live in the suburbs, and may have had different life experiences than you, different ideas on people.  Those I have seen have succeed at the economic games and don't play the victim card often.  You obsess on a different culture.

Unique was supposed to be a mutual complement saying I'm paying attention to a person who is worth paying attention to.

The people I have met have been software engineers, retired military, experienced role players, folks who have retired on a waterfront property, not professional leeches and victim card players.  Each in their own way have done well in messy environments.  It is not hard at all to treat them as equals.  Your obsession with skin pigmentation is fairly rare to me.  This would be part of why we see people so differently.
(09-23-2017, 07:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 01:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]What's your opinion of PB? Who is PB? This may surprise you, I didn't form my opinion/view of PB. The Republicans didn't form them of PB or you or any other blue poster for that matter. PB formed my opinion of him and my feelings toward him. PB and I are different people who handle situations/things and approach things differently. You are pretty loose with your use/understanding/view of vile stereotype, world views and values to explain/define our differences and opinions of each other.

Pbrower likes classical stuff, apparently above my own highly selective tastes.  I'm really into a few well known classic pieces, but am otherwise more diverse.  Bach. Scott Joplin, Gershwin, Lennon.  All are cool from my perspective.  He leans heavily blue, likely heavier than I.  We disagree a lot on the Second Amendment and role of the Supreme Court.  I have no reason to go after him personally.  None.  Well, I'll be noisy when he repeats his opinions of the Second or the Supreme Court.  I'll let him speak on his own problems.

Maybe that is one way for me to deal with my inadequacies.


Quote:I didn't say all Republicans think anything of Pbrower.  I said Kinser did.  That's different.  Yes, smaller taxes, spending less on Americans and providing bad medical coverage to the poor are part of the Unraveling memes.  I certainly would not be surprised by a general opinion by a Republican in that vague direction.  Liar and predator are problematic, much more personal.  There comes with such an assumption that anyone who uses government services does so in a spirit of hunting, that lying is a presumed common tool.

I at least recognize deceitful and predatory behavior as destructive tendencies that first rend a social fabric and even family life of the trust necessary for economic functions. I know at least two sociopaths in my extended family. I'm not going into details on how I know this. For whatever successes they have had, they have had shabby lives (other than material indulgence) off their jobs. I would not pull some of the stunts that they have done.

At the least I do not have an evil personality. The only way in which I will ever get into prison is as a political offender (if the Trump Presidency should become the norm, then I might end up in a labor camp in which I do not last long). I have a conscience. The main religious values that I have are monotheism (if one defines God as a unifying reality from which come all mathematical and physical law and the dialectical reality) and the idea that that God will hold us accountable for what we do to and for others.


Quote:That is, at core, a stereotype.  Those from the other side supposedly think alike, it is fully assumed, and one can treat the opposition as if the stereotype is a universal truth.  No.  That degree of prejudice should not pass without firm comment.  I'm not saying that this doesn't go two ways.

Stereotypes are unreliable for making executive decisions.


Quote:In a way, I can see how Kinser comes from a place where he has seen many lying predators.  He can believe sincerely that his stereotype is true, even if it is not, even if his intense faith in this idea shapes his idea of the world.  I can also approve his rejection of the victim card, how one should burn it, be above it.  It often sets one back.  Some of Kinser's beliefs can be respected. honored, can certainly admired.

Beyond any question -- he has probably encountered far more horrible or even dangerous people than I have. Welfare does create a culture of hustles even in disability. Such is not good for supporting optimism about human nature, an optimism that one needs for coping with realities of American life. But it is probably too late for me to make a life that will satisfy me even economically unless it involves marrying a rich widow. It is hard to start over at my age. Had I known about Asperger's at an early age I would be  one who overcame instead of a victim.

My parents told me that whatever I do, avoid the mental health system. One might be branded as 'crazy' or face the horrors of confinement after some convenient diagnosis... paranoid schizophrenia, perhaps?... suitable for permanent institutionalization.

Quote:I'm often not thrilled by the way he chooses to express his ideas, but there is more than one way to speak and listen.

But I'll call out this stereotype.  Not everyone is as he believes.  Some have motivations which he doesn't respect or understand.


Much so.  That's not to say many of us know people who have abominable motivations.
(09-24-2017, 11:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 05:19 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 04:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I wish that it had been psychology so that I would have been 'introduced' to the  topic in Abnormal Psychology. I would have recognized myself.  

Oh, so you can't stand rock concerts because they are just too loud? That would have been a tip-off.

Why do you think knowing about the issue would have been better?  What would you have done differently with your life?

Knowing about a problem can put one in a better position in which to deal with it. I would have realized that being smart enough to do the job is not enough.

What would you have done differently?  Gone for different jobs, done the same jobs differently?
(09-25-2017, 09:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 11:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 05:19 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 04:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I wish that it had been psychology so that I would have been 'introduced' to the  topic in Abnormal Psychology. I would have recognized myself.  

Oh, so you can't stand rock concerts because they are just too loud? That would have been a tip-off.

Why do you think knowing about the issue would have been better?  What would you have done differently with your life?

Knowing about a problem can put one in a better position in which to deal with it. I would have realized that being smart enough to do the job is not enough.

What would you have done differently?  Gone for different jobs, done the same jobs differently?


Going for a teaching degree, maybe? Teachers can get away with following rules to the letter. They can get away with communication in spoken or written words.

Creative activity?
(09-25-2017, 08:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]At the least I do not have an evil personality. The only way in which I will ever get into prison is as a political offender (if the Trump Presidency should become the norm, then I might end up in a labor camp in which I do not last long).

Actually, as an aspie, your most likely way of going to prison is falsely believing that obeying the law will keep you out of it, and inadvertently violating social norms in a way which sufficiently offends people in the criminal justice system.  It's not likely, but it's more likely that being jailed as a political offender.
(09-24-2017, 09:02 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 12:53 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 10:38 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Your case, you might begin to understand where I'm coming from.  I see you as having strong if questionable financial values.  Most every argument you make is from economics.  That's make it your clear center.  You argue a lot with those who believe quality of life ought to be move valued, more central.  I am one of the later.  As usual, I'd like to see a floor protecting that which is truly important.  I'd like to see everyone contribute to sharing risks and costs.

When it comes to Warren, he can answer as he sees fit.

Not much point in answering someone who fails to understand that goods and services which must be consumed for any quality of life must be produced somehow, and thus that quality of life is inherently about economics.  And even if he could understand that, he's admitted he doesn't understand economics, so he wouldn't be able to understand the explanations anyway.

Ultimately everything boils down to acquisition of goods and services so failure to understand at least a basic level of economics really is a failure to really understand anything.

I fell into software engineering early.  I never had an economic problem.  I knew enough at a basic level to retire comfortably early.  There were other areas I focused attention on.  Money is something that you keep an eye on, but not the center of my life.  That is part of why I'm generally on the quality of life side of an argument, rather than economic values side.

Can I pretend to know what the pros do?  Probably not.  I do know the pros disagree a lot, that pretending at certainty is bogus.

But, sure, there are others with different values.  I just fell into a family where you put in your effort and expect to do OK as a result.
(09-25-2017, 08:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Beyond any question -- he has probably encountered far more horrible or even dangerous people than I have. Welfare does create a culture of hustles even in disability. Such is not good for supporting optimism about human nature, an optimism that one needs for coping with realities of American life. But it is probably too late for me to make a life that will satisfy me even economically unless it involves marrying a rich widow. It is hard to start over at my age. Had I known about Asperger's at an early age I would be one who overcame instead of a victim.

Arguably, welfare steers one towards different coping mechanisms. Same effect.

(09-25-2017, 08:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]My parents told me that whatever I do, avoid the mental health system. One might be branded as 'crazy' or face the horrors of confinement after some convenient diagnosis... paranoid schizophrenia, perhaps?... suitable for permanent institutionalization.  

I can easily understand decades old advice to avoid the mental health system. It was ugly a while back. My fairly recent brush with it, though, was pretty harmless.
Cutting down as I can on the stripe count...

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  But I will say this about Thoreau, I have always found his works to be rather insipid, but then again Fredrick Douglas has always resonated with me more strongly than any of the trancendentalists who mostly scribbled what looks like woo-woo on the level that Eric posts every day.

That's a decent synopsis of how values work.  If an idea doesn't mesh with what you already believe, you find an excuse not to listen or understand.

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]I did describe them accurately, and it also applies to the current crop of Dims too.  As for populist politicans, actually I haven't.  Daddy isn't a politician which is why the Swamp hates him.  

Of course he his a politician.  As soon as he declared himself and started entering primaries, he was a politician.  Hiring half the swamp was gravy.  

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to "flame" whomever I choose to, for whatever reason I choose too.  If that hurts your fee fees I don't care.  Fuck your fee fees!

As for banning...I'm not interested in banning anyone unless they're up on the forum posting tons of spam or porn or something.  

Obscenity?

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]This is a failure to understand basic economics that I assume Warren will bring up at some point.  Let me put it simply.  More people have to be working and paying taxes to pay for what we have now.  Otherwise it will collapse.  Socialism is inherently unstable, eventually you always run out of other people's money.

The unraveling memes include more for the military, less for Americans, more for the wealthy, and less taxes overall.  It is a mess involving several sorts of balancing values, which makes finding a balance worse than awkward.  While the wealthy are creating an extreme imbalance of wealth, running out of money isn't the foremost problem.

Of course, values will make it nigh on impossible for some to listen. Most nations work well with variations of what you call socialism. I've done well enough under both Romneycare and Obamacare. Reality does not seem capable of getting in the way of what you feel like saying, so I mostly expect you to keep saying it. I might be wrong. You are capable of throwing away failures. Trump will have to fail really convincingly first, though. That could take a while.

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Great, we have another who can't come up with an original argument.  Back to your papal bull meme again.  When it comes to my view of PBR it is formed off of his statements and his actions.  Is my interpretation of those statements and actions influenced by my world view?  Yes, but whose isn't?  Certainly not yours.

You do have strong values, which in many ways is great, but you do tend to try to project them absurdly.  Try to listen to yourself.

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]As Philip Johnson said:  The first complete sentence out of my mouth was probably that line about consistency being the hobgoblin of small minds.

Still, utter inconsistency isn't the best part of your act.

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Are you stupid?  Government is force, it has always been force, and always will be force.  The main difference between a state's government and the mafia is that the government on occasion throws a public popularity contest where as the mafia has no need for such extravagances.

You really think that?  This is what I mean by having unusual values and trying to project them as truth.  We could stand more off the wall opinions, but people should know when they are off the wall.

(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Man in his primordial state is in a state of anarchy.  Indeed I'd go so far as to say that anarchy is man's natural state, and wanting to have civilization yet remain as close to the natural state as possible I have slowly, accepted that minarchism is a requirement to maintain civilization.

You are closer to Thoreau than you know, if allergic to the trappings, thus unable to comprehend his ideas.  "That government is best which governs least..."

But I find the premise questionable.  I've looked enough at great apes and their governing structures to expect, leaders, territories, tribes, etc...  They lack the language needed to go as far with it as humans, but I seriously doubt mankind's primordial state was anarchy.  Basing a political system on a convenient lie is problematic.  Like it or not, we are a political species.  The question is how to force the elites to respect the needs and wants of every man.  

We will have to see...
(09-24-2017, 09:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:I personally think, assuming the US remains recognizable, that there will be more people paying into the system than abusing it.

This is a failure to understand basic economics that I assume Warren will bring up at some point.  Let me put it simply.  More people have to be working and paying taxes to pay for what we have now.  Otherwise it will collapse.  Socialism is inherently unstable, eventually you always run out of other people's money.

To be honest, I'm only paying peripheral attention to this conversation.  Bob doesn't understand economics and is not interested in learning it, so I don't see much point to having a conversation on it with him, beyond pointing out an obvious inconsistency in his world view now and then.

I'm here mostly to try to understand more about what's going to happen in the upcoming crisis.  Most of the conversation relevant to that occurs on John Xenakis' thread.
(09-25-2017, 03:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2017, 08:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Beyond any question -- he has probably encountered far more horrible or even dangerous people than I have. Welfare does create a culture of hustles even in disability. Such is not good for supporting optimism about human nature, an optimism that one needs for coping with realities of American life. But it is probably too late for me to make a life that will satisfy me even economically unless it involves marrying a rich widow. It is hard to start over at my age. Had I known about Asperger's at an early age I would be one who overcame instead of a victim.

Arguably, welfare steers one towards different coping mechanisms.  Same effect.

Every world has its own hustles. It's human nature to finagle.

Quote:
(09-25-2017, 08:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]My parents told me that whatever I do, avoid the mental health system. One might be branded as 'crazy' or face the horrors of confinement after some convenient diagnosis... paranoid schizophrenia, perhaps?... suitable for permanent institutionalization.  

I can easily understand decades old advice to avoid the mental health system.  It was ugly a while back.  My fairly recent brush with it, though, was pretty harmless.

Yes, it was ugly; such a highly-praised and enjoyable a movie as One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest showed mental institutions as bureaucratic institutions that depended upon keeping people after they were competent to be released because such was the source of funding. Misdiagnoses intended to make people seem more troubled than they were and the use of drugs to keep people dependent upon the system was part of the problem.

But that was the mental ward, the infamous snake pit. There was also the infamous smear of psychology as the "Jewish Science". Most of my family members were horrible antisemites. What were they scared of?
(09-25-2017, 05:07 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Cutting down as I can on the stripe count...

This is also an irritant to me.  I just skip long striped posts, unless they are directed specifically to me.  Even them, I try to whittle them down as best I can.
(09-24-2017, 08:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 01:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2017, 12:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Kinser

I’m not into striped posts.  I really shouldn’t break into other’s people’s striped exchanges.  Pbrower is doing fine his own way.

But you have called his councilor unqualified, himself a liar-predator, and maligned the motives of politicians.  To a great degree, you have done so without real evidence.  For the most part, you are running off stereotypes that come from your world view.  Rather than listen to the person who is at the center of the discussion, you assert your stereotypes as fact.  Your stereotypes become true because you assert them to be?

Well, I can’t tell you not to say bad things about politician motivations.  I suspect part of it was to attract voters who would benefit from welfare.  I certainly won’t claim welfare as implemented today is ideal.  Some need a short period of help to get back in the game.  Some are fully and permanently disabled.  They can’t and won’t ever be in the game again.  With the latter sort of exception, welfare shouldn’t be a predator centered permanent way of life.  There is a definite difference between welfare providing a safety net, and a dole allowing lazy predators to live off others.  If I could make it so, promote the former, end the latter, I would.

But it seems wrong for you to feed your vile stereotype to one who lives otherwise.  You just can not and will not listen.  You will instead just keep feeding your stereotype to somebody you think must live it.  It must be so.  Your prejudice says so.

Yes.  He has had a different life experience than you.  Yes.  He sees how the world works differently from you.  No, disagreeing with you does not make him stupid, or you.  He has lived in a different world and seeks different solutions to different problems.

We now return to our regularly scheduled stripes.
What's your opinion of PB? Who is PB? This may surprise you, I didn't form my opinion/view of PB. The Republicans didn't form them of PB or you or any other blue poster for that matter. PB formed my opinion of him and my feelings toward him. PB and I are different people who handle situations/things and approach things differently. You are pretty loose with your use/understanding/view of vile stereotype, world views and values to explain/define our differences and opinions of each other.

I am PB.

You have formed opinions of me. You could not fail to do so. Asperger's syndrome without diagnosis has practically made a stereotype out of me. I have had to cope despite having abilities that should have allowed me to thrive.

The paradox is that this nearly-merciless society (and it is that) at the least recognizes handicaps as things to deal with instead of as excuses for shutting people out of life. America accommodates deafness, blindness, and wheelchair use well enough because those are obvious. Mental illness? Most of it is connected to drug abuse and alcoholism, so it is suspect. Asperger's? At least I am not crazy, stupid, deluded, or evil.
I haven't ruled out (you haven't convinced me that you're not ) that you're crazy, stupid (after all, stupid is what stupid does) or deluded at this point.
(09-26-2017, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 08:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I am PB.

You have formed opinions of me. You could not fail to do so. Asperger's syndrome without diagnosis has practically made a stereotype out of me. I have had to cope despite having abilities that should have allowed me to thrive.

The paradox is that this nearly-merciless society (and it is that) at the least recognizes handicaps as things to deal with instead of as excuses for shutting people out of life. America accommodates deafness, blindness, and wheelchair use well enough because those are obvious. Mental illness? Most of it is connected to drug abuse and alcoholism, so it is suspect. Asperger's? At least I am not crazy, stupid, deluded, or evil.
I haven't ruled out (you haven't convinced me that you're not ) that you're crazy, stupid (after all, stupid is what stupid does) or deluded at this point.

The problem being, too many of the red and blue have similar doubts.

In welfare, there are victims and cheaters.  You’d like to think most would agree that both exist.  The proper thing to do is help the victims and frustrate the cheaters.  Alas, once you buy deeply into one of the two world views, you tend to see either victims or cheaters.

In Pbrower’s case, I’m seeing a victim, but there are more than enough cheaters.

On one side, there are those those who see lots of cheaters, few victims, who might be seen as cynical economically centered misers.  Then are those who see lots of victims, no cheaters, who can be seen as economically ignorant bleeding hearts who should know better.  It isn’t hard to find imbalance.

Then there are those who want to help those who need help, but spend their money wisely.  I'd prefer to be in that camp.

Do we want to force fit an individual into an ideal example of what is wrong with America?  I’m dubious that we want to juggle a guy’s reputation for a political ends.  Yet, that is where we are.
(09-26-2017, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 08:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The paradox is that this nearly-merciless society (and it is that) at the least recognizes handicaps as things to deal with instead of as excuses for shutting people out of life. America accommodates deafness, blindness, and wheelchair use well enough because those are obvious. Mental illness? Most of it is connected to drug abuse and alcoholism, so it is suspect. Asperger's? At least I am not crazy, stupid, deluded, or evil.
I haven't ruled out (you haven't convinced me that you're not ) that you're crazy, stupid (after all, stupid is what stupid does) or deluded at this point.


Your opinion of my intelligence and sanity is yours alone. I know myself better than you do, and I am unlikely to convince you of the reality. That is your problem and not mine.

Had my parents or the educational system handled me properly, then I might have had the appropriate and necessary means of coping. It was generally understood that if one had the intellectual power one could achieve whatever one wished. Asperger's throws invisible barriers to achievement and can shatter the confidence that one needs for achieving anything. So of course do criminality, perversion, and lunacy as well as idiocy.

Can a person of low-normal intelligence lead a happy life? Sure -- with depressed expectations and a good work ethic. 

[Image: OccsX.jpg]

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

Contrary to myth, many successful people are not particularly brilliant. "Janitors and sextons" may on the average have an IQ of about 92, and physicians may have an average IQ around 120 -- but 10% of "janitors and sextons" are smarter than  about 20% of all physicians. Now try figuring how someone with an IQ of 105 got into and through med school and into medical practice  and how someone with an IQ around 110 couldn't find a more dignified way to make a living than as a janitor. Didn't apply oneself effectively when such was possible and appropriate?

Now, what is success? If all that one dislikes about one's job is low pay, then things are not too bad. If all that one likes is the paycheck, then one is in a very poor fit of a job.
(09-27-2017, 03:05 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]In welfare, there are victims and cheaters.  You’d like to think most would agree that both exist.  The proper thing to do is help the victims and frustrate the cheaters.  Alas, once you buy deeply into one of the two world views, you tend to see either victims or cheaters...

There is a movement afoot to eliminate the status issues entirely.  For example, Medicaid provides good care at no cost to the poor (and near poor in expansion states).  Individuals just outside the eligibility window may or may not get subsidies (based on expansion or not), but they definitely pay more for care with higher deductibles.  This creates resentment for obvious reasons.  One solution: allow others to buy into Medicaid.  The details are TBD, but the idea has merit, and it's more or less non-partisan.
(09-27-2017, 09:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2017, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 08:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The paradox is that this nearly-merciless society (and it is that) at the least recognizes handicaps as things to deal with instead of as excuses for shutting people out of life. America accommodates deafness, blindness, and wheelchair use well enough because those are obvious. Mental illness? Most of it is connected to drug abuse and alcoholism, so it is suspect. Asperger's? At least I am not crazy, stupid, deluded, or evil.
I haven't ruled out (you haven't convinced me that you're not ) that you're crazy, stupid (after all, stupid is what stupid does) or deluded at this point.


Your opinion of my intelligence and sanity is yours alone. I know myself better than you do, and I am unlikely to convince you of the reality. That is your problem and not mine.

Had my parents or the educational system handled me properly, then I might have had the appropriate and necessary means of coping. It was generally understood that if one had the intellectual power one could achieve whatever one wished. Asperger's throws invisible barriers to achievement and can shatter the confidence that one needs for achieving anything. So of course do criminality, perversion, and lunacy as well as idiocy.

Can a person of low-normal intelligence lead a happy life? Sure -- with depressed expectations and a good work ethic. 

[Image: OccsX.jpg]

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

Contrary to myth, many successful people are not particularly brilliant. "Janitors and sextons" may on the average have an IQ of about 92, and physicians may have an average IQ around 120 -- but 10% of "janitors and sextons" are smarter than  about 20% of all physicians. Now try figuring how someone with an IQ of 105 got into and through med school and into medical practice  and how someone with an IQ around 110 couldn't find a more dignified way to make a living than as a janitor. Didn't apply oneself effectively when such was possible and appropriate?

Now, what is success? If all that one dislikes about one's job is low pay, then things are not too bad. If all that one likes is the paycheck, then one is in a very poor fit of a job.

Some caveats to this scheme. First of all, some people may work as janitors or other such low-paying jobs while they study to be doctors, or while they develop or supplement their career in a field that requires more intelligence but doesn't pay well, such as an artist or musician, or else is working to get a business going.

Second, it is assumed that IQ is genetic, and/or that it stays the same and is inherently fixed throughout life. But it's all dependent on an IQ test. That the test is skewed toward white people is well known. The test itself may change over time too. Aside from this, the IQ test result can change, first as one matures in childhood (I know that mine went up), or it can go down with age (I think that has happened to me too), or abuse of the body and brain (drug users and addicts, alcoholism, depression, etc.)

Third, the IQ test is assumed to measure intelligence, but many aspects of intelligence are not measured, or not measurable, such as emotional, social, physical kinds of intelligence. Western society has overemphasized the clerical, intellectual kinds of intelligence. That was to my personal advantage on such tests, but did they accurately measure my "intelligence"? I don't think so.
(09-27-2017, 10:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2017, 09:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Can a person of low-normal intelligence lead a happy life? Sure -- with depressed expectations and a good work ethic. 

[Image: OccsX.jpg]

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

Contrary to myth, many successful people are not particularly brilliant. "Janitors and sextons" may on the average have an IQ of about 92, and physicians may have an average IQ around 120 -- but 10% of "janitors and sextons" are smarter than  about 20% of all physicians. Now try figuring how someone with an IQ of 105 got into and through med school and into medical practice  and how someone with an IQ around 110 couldn't find a more dignified way to make a living than as a janitor. Didn't apply oneself effectively when such was possible and appropriate?

Now, what is success? If all that one dislikes about one's job is low pay, then things are not too bad. If all that one likes is the paycheck, then one is in a very poor fit of a job.

Some caveats to this scheme. First of all, some people may work as janitors or other such low-paying jobs while they study to be doctors, or while they develop or supplement their career in a field that requires more intelligence but doesn't pay well, such as an artist or musician, or else is working to get a business going.

Second, it is assumed that IQ is genetic, and/or that it stays the same and is inherently fixed throughout life. But it's all dependent on an IQ test. That the test is skewed toward white people is well known. The test itself may change over time too. Aside from this, the IQ test result can change, first as one matures in childhood (I know that mine went up), or it can go down with age (I think that has happened to me too), or abuse of the body and brain (drug users and addicts, alcoholism, depression, etc.)

Third, the IQ test is assumed to measure intelligence, but many aspects of intelligence are not measured, or not measurable, such as emotional, social, physical kinds of intelligence. Western society has overemphasized the clerical, intellectual kinds of intelligence. That was to my personal advantage on such tests, but did they accurately measure my "intelligence"? I don't think so.

True. One could be a 'janitor or sexton' because after being fired for embezzlement as an accountant or being driven out of a professional occupation for a felony conviction (let us say for DUI or drugs), that might be all that is available. Someone might have found carpentry supremely satisfying despite having an IQ well above the average (95) for the occupation. Note also that occupations in which there are huge numbers of people (as in "elementary school/kindergarten teachers") has a 10th percentile near 85 and a 90th percentile around 122. It can be a rush to influence a child in a positive way, which may explain why many successful people like to be involved in Scouting, 4-H, FFA, Boys' and Girls' clubs, etc., so someone who thought of teaching as a stopgap until saving enough funds for law school remains a teacher. But that does not explain the rather narrow range for "clerical work and supervision", which has huge numbers of people, in which the 10th percentile is around 91 and the 90th percentile is around 117. There is a clear hierarchy of intellectual difficulty in clerical work. Categories can also change. "Computer occupations" once included data-entry people who needed not be especially bright, so that category has shifted to the right from where it might have been in the 1980s.

No occupation has more than 10% of its members with an IQ at 140 or higher -- not even attorneys, natural scientists/mathematicians, college professors, electrical engineers, or physicians. There simply aren't that many people with IQs much above 135.
(09-27-2017, 09:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Now try figuring how someone with an IQ of 105 got into and through med school and into medical practice  and how someone with an IQ around 110 couldn't find a more dignified way to make a living than as a janitor.

What's undignified about being a janitor?

(09-27-2017, 10:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Second, it is assumed that IQ is genetic, and/or that it stays the same and is inherently fixed throughout life.

Assumed by whom?
(09-27-2017, 12:33 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2017, 09:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Now try figuring how someone with an IQ of 105 got into and through med school and into medical practice  and how someone with an IQ around 110 couldn't find a more dignified way to make a living than as a janitor.

What's undignified about being a janitor?

I did have a tool making cousin in Akron Ohio while the tire companies were still a force in the area.  It was a highly technical high paying job that left the midwest.  He is now a janitor for a school system where he used to be chairman of the school committee.

I'm told he gets more job satisfaction now, mostly from being near the kids.  I am not sure one should count on that in a vanilla janitor job.
(09-27-2017, 03:05 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2017, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2017, 08:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I am PB.

You have formed opinions of me. You could not fail to do so. Asperger's syndrome without diagnosis has practically made a stereotype out of me. I have had to cope despite having abilities that should have allowed me to thrive.

The paradox is that this nearly-merciless society (and it is that) at the least recognizes handicaps as things to deal with instead of as excuses for shutting people out of life. America accommodates deafness, blindness, and wheelchair use well enough because those are obvious. Mental illness? Most of it is connected to drug abuse and alcoholism, so it is suspect. Asperger's? At least I am not crazy, stupid, deluded, or evil.
I haven't ruled out (you haven't convinced me that you're not ) that you're crazy, stupid (after all, stupid is what stupid does) or deluded at this point.

The problem being, too many of the red and blue have similar doubts.

In welfare, there are victims and cheaters.  You’d like to think most would agree that both exist.  The proper thing to do is help the victims and frustrate the cheaters.  Alas, once you buy deeply into one of the two world views, you tend to see either victims or cheaters.

In Pbrower’s case, I’m seeing a victim, but there are more than enough cheaters.

On one side, there are those those who see lots of cheaters, few victims, who might be seen as cynical economically centered misers.  Then are those who see lots of victims, no cheaters, who can be seen as economically ignorant bleeding hearts who should know better.  It isn’t hard to find imbalance.

Then there are those who want to help those who need help, but spend their money wisely.  I'd prefer to be in that camp.

Do we want to force fit an individual into an ideal example of what is wrong with America?  I’m dubious that we want to juggle a guy’s reputation for a political ends.  Yet, that is where we are.
Welfare attracts all kinds of folks. A portion are lazy. A portion are complete idiots who are incapable of providing for themselves. A portion just don't give a shit about themselves, their kids and their quality of life in general. A portion actually need it (no other option) and are using it to get through a major setback (loss of a job, illness, divorce, death of a spouse, ect.) of some sort. A portion use/abuse the system because it's a relatively easy system to become accustomed to once you're in the system. Based on my real life knowledge and experience with welfare's, the portion who need it/ use it as intended are the minority group. You're so-called liberal worldview is way too black (victims) and white (cheaters) for my taste. PB has issues (lots of issues). I have issues. I bet you (Mr. Cozy Blue) even have a few issues from time to time. Americans in general have their own issues to attend to or address on a regular basis. I don't view PB as a victim. He's to old to seriously view him/accept him as a victim.
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