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(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.
You don't have to go back that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.
(01-11-2021, 05:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 11:27 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]The American people have voted to give control of the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives to the Democrats. Georgia has turned blue, and the "Squad" is growing. In the aftermath of the thwarted insurrection, the president is facing a second impeachment. White House officials are abandoning ship, and several Republicans have joined in calling for his impeachment. Trump has been banned permanently from twitter and facebook, and parler is offline. Trump's approval ratings with the public have long been poor. Those who fomented rebellion in Congress are losing their major donors and facing heavy censure. Those who participated in the assault of the Capitol are being hunted down and arrested, with many of them making excuses and pleading mercy.

I don't know, Classic Xer, it looks to me like it is your side that is losing.

Aren't you the one who is giving up on politics and going back to focusing on art?

Uh, typically the electoral politics goes into hibernation when the last vote is decided. Then comes what people vote about -- administering the government apparatus and legislating to make the laws that (ideally) make a better universe in which we live. For those who decide that they want to be re-elected (and political power that goes with elective office, I have heard, is only about as addictive as heroin) the next two to six years is about doing things that get one re-elected.  

Quote:Looks can be deceiving, we are a 50/50 nation

until one Party disgraces itself with incompetence, corruption, or abuse of power 


Quote:with one vote being the deciding factor with violence on the table and viewed as an option by both sides.

My side, I assure you, does not want violence. If someone does violence or disrupts lawful process, then I expect the legal and penal systems to do their work. My side can give polished answers on the question of why violence is unacceptable. 






Quote:If you look at the current political situation and use some imagination, you can see a nation that's positioned for war. Are you aware of all that it took for the Democratic party and some GOP to defeat Donald Trump?

Elections are not war and are not means of deciding who the enemies are. Plenty of conservatives now recognize Donald Trump for the dangerous, unprincipled, vindictive, dishonest, ruthless demagogue that he is -- and in the last few days they have come to recognize him as the wannabe dictator that he showed signs of being that liberals saw earlier. At this point it does not matter whether one saw him as such before he was elected or after he made such a complete ... I was about to say "horse's ass", but at least without the literal equine derriere a horse isn't going anywhere or doing anything useful... after the election this man is completely unfit to be President!   I don't want him wielding the nuclear football or having access to information at any level of classification. If I were a physician I would not trust him with access to confidential medical records because he would exploit them for gain or gratification. (Medical records are privileged enough that anyone who gets unauthorized access through deliberate or reckless actions faces prison time. Medical ethics require prosecution of anyone who breaches the security of medical records).


Quote:Lets see, it several months of on going violence and covid restrictions, a continuous fear campaign that was waged for several months by the media, illegal court decisions in some key states battle ground states, the assistance of big tech oligarchs controlling relevant information and eliminating voices of decent and political opposition and contributing hundreds of millions dollars and an absent candidate who barely left home who didn't have much to say when asked pertinent and relevant questions relating to known agenda's is what all it took to win the election. 

Wow! How did you learn how to write such an incoherent, logically-stretched piece of prose? Certainly not Freshman Composition at a genuine college. The violence has largely been on Trump's side (we liberals denounce any rioters, vandals, assaulters, and looters even before we protest at something like a Black Lives Matters rally. Contrary to a reactionary myth, we liberals are anything but soft on crime. 

Donald Trump has created much of the cause for fear. COVID-19 has already taken about as many lives as either the population of Bakersfield, California or Cleveland, Ohio... more than six times the combat death toll of unpopular wars in Korea or Vietnam. Our Coward-in-Chief has appeased a murderous invader once we have been taking a death toll resembling a very bad war. If Americans nationwide had taken the measures that my state, three states with land borders, and the two that have borders in lakes (Illinois and Minnesota) then the death tolls would be far lower than they are. Instead governors of Iowa, Nebraska, and South Dakota chose to open their states to tourist dollars... and made their states nexuses for the spread of COVID-19. This is not a partisan swipe; I commend the Republican governors of Indiana and Ohio who shut down their states as tightly as mine. There have been times in which I have been all dressed up with no place to go except for a grocery store, hardware store, teller or take-out window, or medical clinic. That's one way to keep people from traveling and spreading the disease. 

Technological oligarchs controlling information? They can't squelch this:

The Communist Manifesto

[url=https://unabombermanifesto.com/]The "Unabom" Manifesto

[/url]    
Quote:Right now, we are a fascist Democratic country more than an American country without a trustworthy referee who is able to keep peace.

"fascist Democratic" is an oxymoron. That's not to say that everything that calls itself democratic is democratic; just think of the self-proclaimed "People's Democratic Republic of Korea" in which the Korean people have no meaningful say about their government, which is not at all a republic (it is for all practical purposes an absolute monarchy)... well it is in the northern part of Korea and not somewhere else in the world. The ideology in which I believe, which is humanistic, liberal democracy, is not unique to America.  Your idea of America sounds like one in which I would be completely welcome -- to a torture chamber, killing site, or slave-labor camp. Such I do not welcome.  

Quote:Yes, the Democratic side won but look at the position that the Democrats are in right now and look at how many freedoms and rights that the Democratic side has lost. We aren't three years into a crisis like Hoover and the Republican party was in 80 some years ago. The situation now is reversed I don't know where you live or much care for that matter. I don't know if fascism and plutocracy and master class determining who you are, what your worth, what you have to believe and accept was what you wanted or expected or not but that's what you got and you've been stuck with right now. How long will America go along with this arrangement? Well, I can't speak for seventy some million individuals who have the right to wage  war with a fascist regime and are here to do just that with some of  God's help of coarse.

The times are changing, as we see evidence of approach of the end of a Crisis Era. There will be new rules, formal and otherwise, in life and most people will accept them because they seem right. If I have any analogy, I look at the two Obama terms for their place in history much more like the first two terms of FDR as a partial recovery from a dangerous economic downturn. Obama may have been less effective in getting and retaining political power of the sort that FDR did. (The rich and powerful had the means with which to buy political support in elections, and those rich-and-powerful people promoted the sorts of people who firmly believe that no human suffering can ever be in excess in the name of profit and the indulgence of its fruits).

An economic elite that can consign people to poverty because such is best for profit, should it lack moral qualms against such, will create poverty as a means of controlling those who do the work. These people can fire you if you gripe or fail to smile. 

Donald Trump is the worst vehicle possible for this ideology because he is such an objectionable person. Maybe he is simply less competent than a Ronald Reagan. Voters in Reagan's time accepted the deal when it was new. Voters reject it now that it is stale.  


Quote:Did you see what all it took and how many wrongs were ignored for the Democratic party and some GOP to barely defeat Trump? I know several people who have been banned or had their posts deleted by Facebook and Twitter recently. One happened the other day during a discussion between a Biden supporter and a Trump supporter. The Trump supporter had their rights taken away before the eyes of the Biden supporter. So, who gave Facebook the power to do that in this country. The Democrats are making a big mistake right now. The GOP (Northeastern Wing) has no other choice but to go along with whatever the Democrats want to do right now because they supported Biden. Does that sound right, nice or seem American to you?

Facebook and Twitter are both free-enterprise entities! Much of the content is the sort that used to be offered as letters-to-the-editor in local newspapers. Incendiary, slanderous, libelous, illucid, and commercial messages get rejected. The editor can pare away irrelevancy at will. 

If we Democrats are making mistakes, then those are forced errors in which principle traps them. 



Quote:Here's the deal, we are being nice right now and we are waiting to see what the Democrats do with the power that a remnant of a group associated with a bygone era who are old and senile and on the verge of dying off gave them. Biden represents them. What you see here is child's play compared to what could begin to happen all over this country? I do not believe Americans voted for a fascist regime like the one that we clearly have in place today. I don't believe American voted to have their individual rights/freedoms taken away by Progressive courts. I don't believe Americans voted voted for a socialist system. I don't believe Americans voted to remove police funding and further weaken their authority either.

The generational cycle suggests that we are past due for the equivalent of a New Deal or are about due for a Marshall Plan. I'd love to see a Marshall Plan against something un-American: grinding poverty. As for fascism, Trump acts more like a fascist dictator than any prior President and much less than Biden. I'm not sure that you know what fascism means or how a fascist regime operates. 

Fascism has warning signs

[Image: signs-fascism-holocaust-museum-usa-5f577...1__700.jpg]
   

If this doesn't seem familiar you must not have been in contact with news about the Trump Presidency. 

Quote:We have two countries here right now. We have a Democratic country that wants to change everything to suit its particular needs and keep itself and an American country that's represented by Republicans who are not interested in accommodating them/it or serving their/its  needs that I more or less represent here today. So, I suggest that you prepare to be stuck in between the side associated with the French Revolution (anarchy) and the guillotines and the side associated with the American Revolution and the American establishment as they more or less begin square off with one another like you're seeing here. I have already been through the shit the people  who supported Biden are going to through and be subjected to over the next four years as they learn that Biden and what's left of the old Democratic party has no control over or power to stop much much of anything these days.


We Democrats are no monolith. We are just as "American" as the other side, and many people who have recently been on that other side on most issues of voting have come to recognize Donald Trump for the Frankenstein monster that he is. Fascism is to democracy what a pedophile is to an innocent child. Pedophiles never tell their intended victims that they will feel pain and shame that they can never imagine and that will scar them for life. No, it will be some fun and attention. Fascists never tell people about the reduced wages, brutal management, torture chambers, secret police, slave-labor camps, meat-grinder wars, and death mills. They promise prosperity and national pride and give a People pain and shame that they can never imagine and that will scar them for the rest of their lives. Biden may be old-hat, but sometimes the familiar and predictable is far better than some "new and improved"  that is new only in its awfulness, and whose improvement is suspect.
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.
You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Yep.  March 9, 2011.  The Republicans were blocking the ability of state workers to unionize.  An article written at the time... 
(01-11-2021, 08:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Again, Classic X'er, your definition of what constitutes belief in America or identity as an American. Of all the great empires in history (and I refer to scale and power, and the US as the Empire of Liberty stacks up to all of those empires as rather imposing in power, durability, scale, and influence) less defines what makes one an American than any other. "American" does not imply any race, ethnicity, or religion. It does not imply any particular ideology. One can be a Ku Klux Klansman and an American or a Black Panther and an American (yuck -- but that is the truth!)
 
I remember one of your earlier incarnations telling someone to commit suicide, which is unconscionable. I took it up with the moderator and even suggested that you would be accepted if you repudiated and apologized for that statement. There are people in extreme depression or panic, and telling someone potentially suicidal on a ledge to jump would be cause for arrest. Maybe I am excessively literal about something like that, but you must assume that there are people who take every word literally. As that goes, one profession does take every word literally -- and that is the legal profession. 

By narrowing what it means to be an American in good standing, one simultaneously takes away liberty... and if the narrowing should be enough, then we simply have a Big Bad Evil Empire.  

Donald Trump is disgraced as no President in history. We have had failures, but no President has ever sought to nullify an election in favor of himself or a successor. Note well: one of the most reliable means of establishing a dictatorship is to nullify an election.  We accept electoral results that we dislike but cannot disprove (there would have to be very strong evidence of electoral fraud, such as masses of ballots discarded floating down a river that seem marked contrary to the result) or we accept whatever some leader says that the vote was. 

Events of January 6 look more like the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace in 1917 than they do like anything that we have ever seen in American history. Note well: there was an election for the Russian Constituent Assembly, but Vladimir Lenin nullified the vote that he lost because the 'wrong' people won. At that point the Soviet dictatorship began. 

I'm not accusing you, of course, of being a Commie. That is not your ideology. Yours better resembles that of Augusto Pinochet... but his regime was a soul-crushing as any Commie regime except that of the Khmer Rouge.
Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.  

As far as the situation that took place between us many years ago, you took what I said to someone else literally when you should have recognized it as a sarcastic bluff like most everyone else did at the time.  Any how, what you guys did didn't matter in the greater scheme of things and the way things eventually turned out. I had an issue with a moderator upholding and applying a double standard. I basically used you to get to him and remove him. I was posting as the process of removing him was going on. You played a significant a role in that particular task at the time. My ideology is the same as Abe Lincoln, Ike, JFK, MLK, Reagan, Trump and most of the judges in the Supreme Court. I assume that you must be familiar with Classical Liberalism. According to my daughter, they're still teaching it to people her age in school today.

The event that took place on Jan 6th was a demonstration of willingness and capability and that's about it. You are over exaggerating the intent and significance again as usual.
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.
You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.
(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.
You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.
It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.
(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.
You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.
It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

It makes it a poorer match.  I don't think you will find anything perfectly matching, but Newfoundland and Wisconsin seem worth mentioning.  Curious that both are in North America.  I would guess that the governments are more ruthless elsewhere.
(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 08:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Again, Classic X'er, your definition of what constitutes belief in America or identity as an American (differs greatly from mine). Of all the great empires in history (and I refer to scale and power, and the US as the Empire of Liberty stacks up to all of those empires as rather imposing in power, durability, scale, and influence) less defines what makes one an American than any other. "American" does not imply any race, ethnicity, or religion. It does not imply any particular ideology. One can be a Ku Klux Klansman and an American or a Black Panther and an American (yuck -- but that is the truth!)
 
.......

By narrowing what it means to be an American in good standing, one simultaneously takes away liberty... and if the narrowing should be enough, then we simply have a Big Bad Evil Empire.  

Donald Trump is disgraced as no President in history. We have had failures, but no President has ever sought to nullify an election in favor of himself or a successor. Note well: one of the most reliable means of establishing a dictatorship is to nullify an election.  We accept electoral results that we dislike but cannot disprove (there would have to be very strong evidence of electoral fraud, such as masses of ballots discarded floating down a river that seem marked contrary to the result) or we accept whatever some leader says that the vote was. 

Events of January 6 look more like the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace in 1917 than they do like anything that we have ever seen in American history. Note well: there was an election for the Russian Constituent Assembly, but Vladimir Lenin nullified the vote that he lost because the 'wrong' people won. At that point the Soviet dictatorship began. 

I'm not accusing you, of course, of being a Commie. That is not your ideology. Yours better resembles that of Augusto Pinochet... but his regime was a soul-crushing as any Commie regime except that of the Khmer Rouge.

Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.    

As far as the situation that took place between us many years ago, you took what I said to someone else literally when you should have recognized it as a sarcastic bluff like most everyone else did at the time.  Any how, what you guys did didn't matter in the greater scheme of things and the way things eventually turned out. I had an issue with a moderator upholding and applying a double standard. I basically used you to get to him and remove him. I was posting as the process of removing him was going on. You played a significant a role in that particular task at the time. My ideology is the same as Abe Lincoln, Ike, JFK, MLK, Reagan, Trump and most of the judges in the Supreme Court. I assume that you must be familiar with Classical Liberalism. According to my daughter, they're still teaching it to people her age in school today.

The event that took place on Jan 6th was a demonstration of willingness and capability and that's about it. You are over exaggerating the intent and significance  again as usual.

When one part of the populace is in danger of losing its freedom (unless it does horrible things to people such as messing with children, human trafficking, dealing drugs, or outright terrorism), then we are all at risk. Many ways exist in which to destroy democracy, and Donald Trump has done several of them while doing nothing to fortify freedom (unless your idea of freedom is little more than the privilege of the super-rich to further enhance their power, indulgence, and gain). 

No, your ideology cannot be the same as  Abe Lincoln, Ike, JFK, MLK, Reagan, Trump and most of the judges in the Supreme Court. They are different. Any attempt to compare Abe Lincoln to Donald Trump is like comparing  Tom Veryzer to Cal Ripken, Jr. because they were both major-league shortstops.  Trump got three Justices of the Supreme Court nominated and confirmed in a lockstep process that, like much that happened while he was President, will look increasingly shady as time passes. Trump's ideology is closer to that of Ayn Rand than about any other political thinker that I know, and his sexual mores seem to come from Hugh Hefner. 

I have compared Obama to Eisenhower for quality, temperament, and political values, and even noticed that an Obama win of the Presidency looks more like an Eisenhower win than any other before him, which suggests that Ike and Obama had similar constituencies. Both wiped out the Other Side with well-educated people, which is remarkable considering that they are from opposing Parties. 

About all that Trump has in common with JFK is a high-risk sex life that well-protected people could get away with in the 1940's and 1950's but can't do so now. See also Bill Clinton. Then again I can't imagine Donald Trump piloting a PT boat in a great national crisis because Trump is completely unreliable in human relationships. Martin Luther King? I vomit at the comparison. Let's start with the obvious: Martin Luther King won a Nobel Peace Prize for his heroic, courageous quest for freedom and human dignity -- and Trump has eroded both. 

If I see a connection between Reagan and Trump it is that Trump took Reagan's profits-first ideology that recognized some needs of the time (basically, for multitudes to reduce their expectations of the American dream in economic results, working cheaply at jobs far beneath their spirits so that profits would be increased and so in the end would opportunities emerge -- basically, you got that degree from college and you face the prospect of a long stay in a throwaway job? Work two such jobs to meet the rent, and make the best of "Do you want fries with that?" -- and always remember to consider working harder and longer for less as a cause for delight! Trump takes it to its preposterous extreme, endorsing what increasingly looks like an aristocratic order in which being born into the Right Family means more than does talent or ability, especially as the economy becomes increasingly monopolistic and economically-concentrated. 

I see more in common between Donald Trump and political leaders that many Americans despise. He has gone far into the pattern of a dictator. When he lost his re-election bid he expected the rest of us to deny the reality that we saw in official reports because His Glorious Leadership could only win in a landslide. He chooses to be among people who give him unlimited adulation, and he can't recognize that the crowds that attend his rallies are basically the same people. Do you know who else had rallies like that? Fidel Castro!

We have institutions far stronger than Donald Trump -- thank God! (Or should I say the Founding Fathers and other successors). Even Reagan believed that profits were the engine of social progress. With Trump, profit and executive compensation are rewards for being what one is, and those shut out -- well, they can suffer with smiles that they must affect if they are not to be fired from miserable jobs and cast into homelessness and hunger. Trump's vision is the sort that makes someone like Lenin, Mao, or Castro relevant. Do bad things and you get bad results. That's karma, not an idea originally American or even Western, but one that has become popular in America.
(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.
You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.
It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

But I don't think that was the fact, since it was non-violent. They just came in and occupied the place. It was like Occupy Wall Street.
(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.   

What are you talking about?  The anti-vaxxers are all on your side, along with the anti-maskers and anti-rationalists in general.
(01-12-2021, 06:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.
It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

It makes it a poorer match.  I don't think you will find anything perfectly matching, but Newfoundland and Wisconsin seem worth mentioning.  Curious that both are in North America.  I would guess that the governments are more ruthless elsewhere.

Here's a close analog from 1874.  With Grant out of office, the attempt to overthrow the Republican governor was successful the second time.
In the end the rationalists win on everything but compassion and aesthetics. I can't explain what causes a woman to bond with her child, why we find overt crime so abominable, or why I find a piece of glorious counterpoint wonderful or magnificent scenery enthralling... I concede on those. Those hardly challenge reason. (Maybe we can't be too rational if we are to retain some of the animal instincts that make us human instead of machines). As someone possibly too rational for his own good -- which goes with the territory -- I can see the consequences of unfeeling behavior in people who deny feelings, fun, conscience, and aesthetics.

Rationalists know what fights to pick and usually get the upper hand. All that thwarts reason is brute force, as in "Believe this doctrine or you will be burned at the auto-da-fe". The political or religious order that can enforce so hard a choice typically loses its economic efficiency and its ability to advance technologically.

Anti-vaxxers kill their children. Anti-mask advocates who spread COVID-19 might as well be carrying live rattlesnakes because COVID-19 is about as likely to kill as a rattlesnake bite.
(01-12-2021, 04:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.   

What are you talking about?  The anti-vaxxers are all on your side, along with the anti-maskers and anti-rationalists in general.
The vast majority of the anti-vaccine folks and anti-rationalists are on your side these days. Your side politicized the covid crisis and politicized the situation that occurred with George Floyd and your politicizing what happened at the capitol last week. The anti-maskers are more likely on my side. The Democratic side, you included, spent the last several months participating in a large scale fear/hate campaign that's on the verge of blowing up in the Democrats face. I keep telling you guys that you digging your own graves as you continue to go about your business of scaring/angering your half of the country into isolation or submission. I keep telling you that there is a limitation on what you guys are doing and able to get away with and once it's reached, the politicians and the people like yourself who are going to find themselves at serious risk and paying a significant price and find out what it's like to be afraid for their lives and living out the rest of their lives in fear. I keep telling you that there's a difference between Democratic voters and Republican voters and keep telling you that you have to change your normal approach with them when your facing/dealing with us directly.
(01-12-2021, 01:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.
You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.
It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

But I don't think that was the fact, since it was non-violent. They just came in and occupied the place. It was like Occupy Wall Street.
It's a fact that they barged in and took over the capital.
(01-12-2021, 05:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 01:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.
It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

But I don't think that was the fact, since it was non-violent. They just came in and occupied the place. It was like Occupy Wall Street.
It's a fact that they barged in and took over the capital.

Until they were forced out.
(01-12-2021, 04:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2021, 04:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.   

What are you talking about?  The anti-vaxxers are all on your side, along with the anti-maskers and anti-rationalists in general.

The vast majority of the anti-vaccine folks and anti-rationalists are on your side these days. Your side politicized the covid crisis and politicized the situation that occurred with George Floyd and your politicizing what happened at the capitol last week. The anti-maskers are more likely on my side. The Democratic side, you included, spent the last several months participating in a large scale fear/hate campaign that's on the verge of blowing up in the Democrats face. I keep telling you guys that you digging your own graves as you continue to go about your business of scaring/angering your half of  the country into isolation or submission. I keep telling you that there is a limitation on what you guys are doing and able to get away with and once it's reached, the politicians and the people like yourself who are going to find themselves at serious risk and paying a significant price and find out what it's like to be afraid for their lives and living out the rest of their lives in fear. I keep telling you that there's a difference between Democratic voters and Republican voters and keep telling you that you have to change your normal approach with them when your facing/dealing with us directly.

QAnon and the antivaxxer crowd are nearly inseparable, so no.  Typical antivaxxers are not lefties. And the paranoia of the right is truly baffling.  You are the guys with the guns.  The fearmongering is not a leftwing product either. Tell the RW media to stop it, because that's the source.  I'm sorry you're afraid of your own shadows, but that seems to be your problem to fix.
(01-13-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]And the paranoia of the right is truly baffling.  You are the guys with the guns.  The fearmongering is not a leftwing product either. Tell the RW media to stop it, because that's the source.  I'm sorry you're afraid of your own shadows, but that seems to be your problem to fix.

The paranoia is the result of tribal thinking. You divide everything into us and them, get xenophobic about them, and use violence to gain an advantage for your 'tribe'. It was cost effective through much of history, but not so much today in the US.
(01-13-2021, 01:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-13-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]And the paranoia of the right is truly baffling.  You are the guys with the guns.  The fearmongering is not a leftwing product either. Tell the RW media to stop it, because that's the source.  I'm sorry you're afraid of your own shadows, but that seems to be your problem to fix.

The paranoia is the result of tribal thinking.  You divide everything into us and them, get xenophobic about them, and use violence to gain an advantage for your 'tribe'.  It was cost effective through much of history, but not so much today in the US.

Trump is a tribal politician. On a national scale, the only pols who can win tribal politics play up "whiteness", especially of the ill-educated. The well-educated can see through the Trump scam and vote against him unless they find him useful for economic gain. That is good for winning statewide elections mostly in god-awful places where religion is indistinguishable from superstition, where educational achievement is generally below average by national standards, and economic opportunity is limited. 

Non-whites cannot get away with tribal politics except in communities in which one non-white community dominates local (machine) politics. Tribal politics often become incompetent and corrupt because electoral politics divide predictably on ethnic lines. Example: Mississippi has the highest proportion of its former elected officials in prison. The community often divides even on commercial lines so that a town has two car dealerships, grocery stores (unless Wal*Mart has undercut them both into oblivion), funeral parlors, barber shops... maybe the divide is not so clear in a restaurant or a cinema, but churches are very different in ethnic mix. You can easily predict which business someone patronizes by ethnicity. You can also predict that if the local machine is white and the GM dealership is owned by a white fellow, and the Ford dealership is owned by a black fellow, that the sorts of cars used in public work will depend upon which community has the majority of the vote.
It might be time to review just how off-kilter the average member of MAGA truly is. Here's a quick read from the NY Times. Enjoy.
Inside job?

Republican lawmakers are accused of giving Capitol tours to insurrectionists before the riot as new inquiries are opened.

Federal agencies opened two new investigations into the extent to which Capitol Police and some lawmakers were complicit in the mob attack.

By Luke Broadwater
  • Jan. 13, 2021



Democratic members of Congress on Wednesday accused unnamed Republicans of giving tours of the Capitol to insurrectionists ahead of last week’s deadly siege of the Capitol, as federal agencies opened two new investigations into the extent to which Capitol Police and some lawmakers were complicit in the mob attack.
The inspector general of the Capitol Police is opening a potentially wide-ranging investigation into security breaches connected to the siege that could determine the extent to which some Capitol Police officers were involved, according to a senior congressional aide with direct knowledge of the investigation. The inspector general will suspend all other projects until the investigation is complete, the aide said.
Three officers have been suspended, and 17 others are under investigation by the force’s Office of Professional Responsibility.
The Government Accountability Office, a nonpartisan federal watchdog agency, has also signaled it will open an investigation that will include the roles that members of Congress may have played in inciting the mob seeking to overturn the results of the election, according to the congressman who requested the inquiry, Representative Jason Crow, Democrat of Colorado.


Mr. Crow, a former Army Captain, asked the comptroller general of the United States, who is part of the agency, last week to initiate a broad investigation into many aspects of the security breach, including the roles members of Congress played.



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Mr. Crow, whose request letter was signed by 107 of his colleagues, said Wednesday that he has been informed the investigation is underway.


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“To the extent there were members of the House that were complicit, and I believe there were, we will pursue appropriate remedies including expulsion and a prohibition from holding elective office for the rest of their lives,” Mr. Crow said in an interview. “They will of course be subject to criminal investigation and prosecution if that’s what the facts of the investigation show.”
The tours on the eve of the riot came to light after Representative Mikie Sherrill, Democrat of New Jersey and a former Navy pilot, said Tuesday night on Facebook without offering evidence that she knew of members of Congress who gave “reconnaissance” tours to rioters ahead of the attack.
“Those members of Congress who had groups coming through the Capitol that I saw on Jan. 5, a reconnaissance for the next day, those members of Congress that incited this violent crowd,” Ms. Sherrill said, “those members who attempted to help our president undermine our democracy, I’m going to see that they’re held accountable.”

[/url]

On Wednesday, about 30 lawmakers joined Ms. Sherrill in requesting an investigation from the acting House and Senate sergeants-at-arms and the Capitol Police into what Ms. Sherrill called “suspicious behavior” and access given to visitors to the Capitol complex the day before the riot.
“Many of the members who signed this letter, including those of us who have served in the military and are trained to recognize suspicious activity, as well as various members of our staff, witnessed an extremely high number of outside groups in the complex on Tuesday, January 5,” the lawmakers wrote. They called the visits suspicious, noting that tours have been restricted because of the coronavirus pandemic.
Representative Tim Ryan, Democrat of Ohio, said lawmakers were aware of the tours but are now looking at them in a new light given the attack. He said they included “handfuls” of people and that the authorities were aware of them. “Now you look back on certain things and you look at them differently so, yeah, we’re looking into it,” he said.
Pressure is mounting on the Republican members of Congress who associated themselves with far-right extremist groups in the days leading up to the mob attack. Several of Mr. Trump’s most ardent supporters, including Representatives Mo Brooks of Alabama and Paul Gosar and Andy Biggs, both of Arizona, [url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/republicans-capitol-riot.html]have been accused
 of helping plan the Jan. 6 rally that led to the violent attack on the Capitol.




Luke Broadwater covers Congress. He was the lead reporter on a series of investigative articles at the Baltimore Sun that won a Pulitzer Prize and a George Polk Award in 2020. @lukebroadwater


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/us/politics/republicans-capitol-tours.html?smid=fb-share&fbclid=IwAR1YhJdWMQPE-vjHCTA9dL84B2X3_tfr5Rv4TiCI6dne3W7c4hakvFsTpYI
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