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(01-28-2021, 04:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

At that rate about every young adult would be competing for a job as an 'essential worker' for that privilege.
What about the 11,000 American union workers who had that privilege that Biden removed with a stroke of a pen the other day? Do you think a man with a sound mind who was American minded or Democratic minded American would do something foolish like that to please the Progressive minded during a national crisis that's been causing American job losses and killing American business's for several months. Welcome to the 4T.
Coal mining, especially underground, is a dying business, and at this I refer not to the well-known dangers of coal mining as I do to the working-out of known coal seams. The once-powerful United Mine Workers Union (UMWU) that made practically ensured that West Virginia would be a safe D state in any but a 49-state Republican blowout (it went once against Eisenhower, against Reagan in 1980, and against the elder Bush in 1988) has been weakened for that alone. Surface mining, which is more catastrophic to the environment, does not need the highly-skilled union miners; that is most of the contemporary coal mining. West Virginia has gone for the Democratic Presidential nominee in 350-plus electoral vote elections for the Republican before 1980 and against the Democrat in the one 350+ landslide for a Democratic nominee since 2008. It is the only State that has done so since 1970.

Alternative energy could well be the revival of the energy business in what used to be the coal fields, and I can easily imagine the United Mine Workers' Union getting a revival in the area... and new-found political influence. I can hardly imagine more appropriate places for solar panels than the ravaged hilltops that recently had surface coal seams to strip mine. Oh, they will no longer be miners? We have the Teamsters' Union, and not many Teamsters are literal teamsters of the old kind.

Alternative energy will more require formal learning and less on vocational skill, but it would have a relatively concentrated and skilled workforce much like the oil industry, whose refineries and oil fields are heavily organized.

Reviving the economies of middle-Pennsylvania, West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and southeastern Ohio could well be a win-win for Democrats as well as the rest of America. I don't live there, but I would prefer that people live at least as well as the underground coal miners of yore used to. The only people that that can hurt politically are the local Republican pols, who have done little more than to make the same mistakes as the Democratic machines did there of failing to make the appropriate investments in education, roads, and public health because King Coal did not need much formal education or good roads and because the UMWU was able to get above-average medical insurance for miners... and coal miners needed that. Oh, did they need that!
(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp.  Rolleyes

The USA failed to contain the covid virus because, unlike before, Trump and the Republicans had shut down the response teams and methods for containing it that had been built by Obama, Susan Rice, Dr. Fauci, etc. Then they called it a hoax that would just go away, even though Trump knew it was serious, and would not, giving as an excuse that to tell the truth "would cause a panic." You cannot shift the blame from Trump, as you Republicans would love to do. He blew it. He did not establish a national plan, using the NWPA to combat the virus with tests, quarantines, masks, closures of gatherings and other measures, but left it to states without any funds to do it. His Republican governors in Florida, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, etc. made sure that the people had no protection and no means of dealing with the virus. When lockdowns did happen, they helped. But Trump and the Republican extremists politicized the virus and made mask wearing a Democratic Party behavior, and held super-spreader events, and that's why the virus came back during travel season after some small declines and killed more than twice as many as should have died.

The containment measures worked in some countries, including some democracies, where people have an awareness of collective needs, but the USA is a huge libertarian country. When the virus came here, it said "oh boy, yum yum! A libertarian country! We'll just be allowed in! No-one will help each other; they are all individualists! They believe in "freedom" and "self-reliance" OH BOY!"
Oh, yes, it was only the Republicans who politicized this thing. Whatever.
(01-28-2021, 05:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Coal mining, especially underground, is a dying business, and at this I refer not to the well-known dangers of coal mining as I do to the working-out of known coal seams. The once-powerful United Mine Workers Union (UMWU) that made practically ensured that West Virginia would be a safe D state in any but a 49-state Republican blowout (it went once against Eisenhower, against Reagan in 1980, and against the elder Bush in 1988) has been weakened for that alone. Surface mining, which is more catastrophic to the environment, does not need the highly-skilled union miners; that is most of the contemporary coal mining. West Virginia has gone for the Democratic Presidential nominee in 350-plus electoral vote elections for the Republican before 1980 and against the Democrat in the one 350+ landslide for a Democratic nominee since 2008. It is the only State that has done so since 1970.

Alternative energy could well be the revival of the energy business in what used to be the coal fields, and I can easily imagine the United Mine Workers' Union getting a revival in the area... and new-found political influence. I can hardly imagine more appropriate places for solar panels than the ravaged hilltops that recently had surface coal seams to strip mine. Oh, they will no longer be miners? We have the Teamsters' Union, and not many Teamsters are literal teamsters of the old kind.

Alternative energy will more require formal learning and less on vocational skill, but it would have a relatively concentrated and skilled workforce much like the oil industry, whose refineries and oil fields are heavily organized.

Reviving the economies of middle-Pennsylvania, West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and southeastern Ohio could well be a win-win for Democrats as well as the rest of America. I don't live there, but I would prefer that people live at least as well as the underground coal miners of yore used to. The only people that that can hurt politically are the local Republican pols, who have done little more than to make the same mistakes as the Democratic machines did there of failing to make the appropriate investments in education, roads, and public health because King Coal did not need much formal education or good roads and because the UMWU  was able to get above-average medical insurance for miners... and coal miners needed that. Oh, did they need that!
Dude, you're not going to be able to power the entire country off solar panels and  windmills alone. I think America can do better than that in the long run myself. I have a better idea lets force China to fall in line with the rest of the world and clean up its act. Keep in mind, the Third Reich had a master plan, big dreams like Progressives do these days and a belief that it would last a thousand years that blew up in its face. Is it a coincidence that the same red states that filed a grievance just had a major oil line project related to all of them stopped in it tracks. This is supposed to be a time of unity and working together and not supposed to be time to demonstrate power and authority. Do you know what I would do, I'd ignore the order and give Biden the finger and continue and force Biden's hand at the wrong time in history. I'm done with the Democrats and all their bullshit. Welcome to the 4T.
Eric the Green
(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp.  Rolleyes

The USA failed to contain the covid virus because, unlike before, Trump and the Republicans had shut down the response teams and methods for containing it that had been built by Obama, Susan Rice, Dr. Fauci, etc. Then they called it a hoax that would just go away, even though Trump knew it was serious, and would not, giving as an excuse that to tell the truth "would cause a panic." You cannot shift the blame from Trump, as you Republicans would love to do. He blew it. He did not establish a national plan, using the NWPA to combat the virus with tests, quarantines, masks, closures of gatherings and other measures, but left it to states without any funds to do it. His Republican governors in Florida, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, etc. made sure that the people had no protection and no means of dealing with the virus. When lockdowns did happen, they helped. But Trump and the Republican extremists politicized the virus and made mask wearing a Democratic Party behavior, and held super-spreader events, and that's why the virus came back during travel season after some small declines and killed more than twice as many as should have died.

The containment measures worked in some countries, including some democracies, where people have an awareness of collective needs, but the USA is a huge libertarian country. When the virus came here, it said "oh boy, yum yum! A libertarian country! We'll just be allowed in! No-one will help each other; they are all individualists! They believe in "freedom" and "self-reliance" OH BOY!"
[/quote]

China failed to contain the virus and failed to inform us of it as well. It's hard to stop/contain an unknown virus that shows up here unexpectedly begins to spread prior to being imformed. It doesn't matter what some group think tank came up with, we'd still be in the same situation we are in today. You're not thinking again as usual. You can suck up and tap elbows with China and let bygones be bygones and get back to business as usual. You'll look like shit to Americans but when has that ever bothered Progressives. Get your facts straight and get yourself up to speed because Trump ain't around to falsely accuse, persecute and blame anymore. The Democrats are the only game in town and they only group to blame for everything that goes wrong from here on. Yep, we are a large libertarian country with a large libertarian population that's damn near impossible to control that's involved in just about everything. So, how much money can America legally remove from the Facebook dude, the twitter dude? I've helped quite a few people during my life. I have nothing to feel guilty or ashamed of these days.
(01-29-2021, 04:22 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, yes, it was only the Republicans who politicized this thing.  Whatever.
I can tell that Eric has never been in a position of authority. I mean, if there was a fire would you scream fire in a place packed with people. I wouldn't but Eric probably would because Eric doesn't think much these days.
(01-30-2021, 02:57 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Eric the Green
(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp.  Rolleyes

The USA failed to contain the covid virus because, unlike before, Trump and the Republicans had shut down the response teams and methods for containing it that had been built by Obama, Susan Rice, Dr. Fauci, etc. Then they called it a hoax that would just go away, even though Trump knew it was serious, and would not, giving as an excuse that to tell the truth "would cause a panic." You cannot shift the blame from Trump, as you Republicans would love to do. He blew it. He did not establish a national plan, using the NWPA to combat the virus with tests, quarantines, masks, closures of gatherings and other measures, but left it to states without any funds to do it. His Republican governors in Florida, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, etc. made sure that the people had no protection and no means of dealing with the virus. When lockdowns did happen, they helped. But Trump and the Republican extremists politicized the virus and made mask wearing a Democratic Party behavior, and held super-spreader events, and that's why the virus came back during travel season after some small declines and killed more than twice as many as should have died.

The containment measures worked in some countries, including some democracies, where people have an awareness of collective needs, but the USA is a huge libertarian country. When the virus came here, it said "oh boy, yum yum! A libertarian country! We'll just be allowed in! No-one will help each other; they are all individualists! They believe in "freedom" and "self-reliance" OH BOY!"


China failed to contain the virus and failed to inform us of it as well. It's hard to stop/contain an unknown virus that we nothing about in advance that  shows up begins to spread unexpectedly. It doesn't matter what some group think tank came up with, we'd still be in the same situation we are in today. You're not thinking again as usual. You can suck up and tap elbows with China and let bygones be bygones and get back to business as usual. You'll look like ---- to Americans but when has that ever bothered Progressives. Get your facts straight and get yourself up to speed because Trump ain't around to falsely accuse, persecute and blame anymore. The Democrats are the only game in town and they only group to blame for everything that goes wrong from here on. Yep, we are a large libertarian country with a large libertarian population that's damn near impossible to control that's involved in just about everything. So, how much money can America legally remove from the Facebook dude, the twitter dude? I've helped quite a few people during my life. I have nothing to feel guilty or ashamed of these days.

Trump was a horrible leader. We Americans could have stopped COVID-19 far faster than we did. We were in fact slow to get it, but we could have kept the curve flat enough long enough to keep about 400,000 of those who have died from dying. It would have taken shutting down the US as such a state as Michigan did. We could have had masks in place as a norm, and we would have have been able to have had open movie theaters, concert halls, and sporting arenas. Instead we had mass death characteristic of a shooting war. 

We needed not ask "What would China think?"

...again you seem to believe that the only real Americans share your reactionary beliefs . On the whole we Progressives have done far better in administering a response to COVID-19. Sure, Trump is no longer around. He has become the scapegoat for much that went wrong while he was President. Trump is not a Christian, he is not a conservative, and he is not a libertarian. He stands for right-wing Big Government, and his God is Mammon.
(01-29-2021, 04:22 PM)mamabug Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, yes, it was only the Republicans who politicized this thing.  Whatever.

Only, no.  Mostly, yes.  The Tories in the UK did similar damage there.  If you spend your time and money convincing folks that up is down, you'll get lots of converts.
Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.
(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

(Expletive deleted)  your society. And (expletive deleted) wage labor.

Some people must be rewarded for doing wage labor, much of which has been dangerous, unpleasant, or harmful. How else does one get people to work in coal or uranium mines than above-average wages?
(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.
(01-31-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.

They can do whatever pleases them. At this point the only practical thing to do is to seize the Stage, force through an automation megaprojects while subsidizing the lives of the working class, and then abolish the State.
(01-31-2021, 01:09 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.

They can do whatever pleases them. At this point the only practical thing to do is to seize the Stage, force through an automation megaprojects while subsidizing the lives of the working class, and then abolish the State.

People need purpose, and most are incapable of finding it on their own.  That's why followers vastly outnumber leaders.  For a microcosm of life without purpose, look at the less-than-motivated children of the elite.  They tend to get involved in all sort of mayhem, and often die of an overdose or some other self-destructive behavior.  That's not a good model, but given no planning, it's the default one.
(01-31-2021, 01:52 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:09 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.

They can do whatever pleases them. At this point the only practical thing to do is to seize the Stage, force through an automation megaprojects while subsidizing the lives of the working class, and then abolish the State.

People need purpose, and most are incapable of finding it on their own.  That's why followers vastly outnumber leaders.  For a microcosm of life without purpose, look at the less-than-motivated children of the elite.  They tend to get involved in all sort of mayhem, and often die of an overdose or some other self-destructive behavior.  That's not a good model, but given no planning, it's the default one.

It is easier to find your own purpose when the instruments of production are made available to the whole society.
(01-31-2021, 01:52 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:09 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.

They can do whatever pleases them. At this point the only practical thing to do is to seize the Stage, force through an automation megaprojects while subsidizing the lives of the working class, and then abolish the State.

People need purpose, and most are incapable of finding it on their own.  That's why followers vastly outnumber leaders.  For a microcosm of life without purpose, look at the less-than-motivated children of the elite.  They tend to get involved in all sort of mayhem, and often die of an overdose or some other self-destructive behavior.  That's not a good model, but given no planning, it's the default one.

So it is basically hobbies or heroin. That makes sense.
(01-31-2021, 02:23 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:52 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:09 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.

They can do whatever pleases them. At this point the only practical thing to do is to seize the Stage, force through an automation megaprojects while subsidizing the lives of the working class, and then abolish the State.

People need purpose, and most are incapable of finding it on their own.  That's why followers vastly outnumber leaders.  For a microcosm of life without purpose, look at the less-than-motivated children of the elite.  They tend to get involved in all sort of mayhem, and often die of an overdose or some other self-destructive behavior.  That's not a good model, but given no planning, it's the default one.

It is easier to find your own purpose when the instruments of production are made available to the whole society.

If machines do everything, and people do nothing, how does that help?
(02-01-2021, 12:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 02:23 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:52 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:09 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.

They can do whatever pleases them. At this point the only practical thing to do is to seize the Stage, force through an automation megaprojects while subsidizing the lives of the working class, and then abolish the State.

People need purpose, and most are incapable of finding it on their own.  That's why followers vastly outnumber leaders.  For a microcosm of life without purpose, look at the less-than-motivated children of the elite.  They tend to get involved in all sort of mayhem, and often die of an overdose or some other self-destructive behavior.  That's not a good model, but given no planning, it's the default one.

It is easier to find your own purpose when the instruments of production are made available to the whole society.

If machines do everything, and people do nothing, how does that help?

Machines won't do everything. They will do the overwhelming majority of physically constructive activities - construction, plumbing, welding, farming. There will always be creative human activities, from the arts to interpersonal services.
(02-01-2021, 06:10 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-01-2021, 12:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 02:23 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:52 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:09 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]They can do whatever pleases them. At this point the only practical thing to do is to seize the Stage, force through an automation megaprojects while subsidizing the lives of the working class, and then abolish the State.

People need purpose, and most are incapable of finding it on their own.  That's why followers vastly outnumber leaders.  For a microcosm of life without purpose, look at the less-than-motivated children of the elite.  They tend to get involved in all sort of mayhem, and often die of an overdose or some other self-destructive behavior.  That's not a good model, but given no planning, it's the default one.

It is easier to find your own purpose when the instruments of production are made available to the whole society.

If machines do everything, and people do nothing, how does that help?

Machines won't do everything. They will do the overwhelming majority of physically constructive activities - construction, plumbing, welding, farming. There will always be creative human activities, from the arts to interpersonal services.

OK, but how does that help with the average person?  Most people are not artsy and creative or intellectually curious enough to pursue knowledge for its own sake. Instead, we'll have, as Paul Brower noted, people with hobbies and others with pathologies -- primarily substance abuse.  The singular alternative to all that is some form of mandatory social engagement.  In the past, the military draft served that purpose.  What would work today is ????
(02-02-2021, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-01-2021, 06:10 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-01-2021, 12:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 02:23 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2021, 01:52 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]People need purpose, and most are incapable of finding it on their own.  That's why followers vastly outnumber leaders.  For a microcosm of life without purpose, look at the less-than-motivated children of the elite.  They tend to get involved in all sort of mayhem, and often die of an overdose or some other self-destructive behavior.  That's not a good model, but given no planning, it's the default one.

It is easier to find your own purpose when the instruments of production are made available to the whole society.

If machines do everything, and people do nothing, how does that help?

Machines won't do everything. They will do the overwhelming majority of physically constructive activities - construction, plumbing, welding, farming. There will always be creative human activities, from the arts to interpersonal services.

OK, but how does that help with the average person?  Most people are not artsy and creative or intellectually curious enough to pursue knowledge for its own sake. Instead, we'll have, as Paul Brower noted, people with hobbies and others with pathologies -- primarily substance abuse.  The singular alternative to all that is some form of mandatory social engagement.  In the past, the military draft served that purpose.  What would work today is ????

The average person absolutely would be artsy and creative and intellectually curious if the world allowed for it, but the overriding demand for profitability in all human endeavors precludes it. Those social pathologies (and I say this as a victim of it myself) overwhelmingly stem from feelings of social uselessness, which are grossly exacerbated by bourgeois class society.
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