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(08-15-2017, 04:53 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]The Russian Icebreaker, not to be confused with Arctic tourism enablement, is a means of loosening up the impediments to the conquest of The West. Let the West destroy itself from within for a  while. Make some key friends among certain factions. Then, swoop in for the kill.

Stalin was actually quite successful at it. Sure, he did not conquer all of The West. But he did manage to grab half of Europe.

That was the test run.

There are other perspectives.  Russia saw the invasions of Genghis Khan, Napoleon and Hitler, perhaps Cynic Hero's big three.  Sure, Russia was too big, Russia was too cold, and there were too damn many of them.  General Winter is excellent at defense.  Still, the notion that the world is out to get Russia is understandable, perhaps because the world has been out to get Russia.

From some accounts, Stalin was quite fearful in the early days of Barbarossa.  In many ways the Soviet World War II actions are ever so understandable.  Churchill and Roosevelt actually went out of their way to make sure Stalin remained in the war, did not make a separate peace.  Alas, autocratic government remains problematic.  I'm no Stalin fan, but you haven't got him right here.
(08-15-2017, 05:59 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not inclined to believe the worst even of the racist element.  A lot of their ilk could be wearing swastika because it makes their elders over react, not because they really want to push minority folk into cattle cars heading for gas chambers.  Some people just like attention, violence and belonging.  Some will adapt beliefs to get these things.  Alas there are lone nuts and patriotic believers mixed in who take it beyond games.

At this same time, sensationalist and partisan elements of the media are willing to blow everything way out of proportion.

I know, lamestream media is always blowing everything out of proportion.  I mean, who hasn't donned a swastika and terrorized some black clergymen in a bit of youthful folly?
(08-15-2017, 11:45 PM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 05:59 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not inclined to believe the worst even of the racist element.  A lot of their ilk could be wearing swastika because it makes their elders over react, not because they really want to push minority folk into cattle cars heading for gas chambers.  Some people just like attention, violence and belonging.  Some will adapt beliefs to get these things.  Alas there are lone nuts and patriotic believers mixed in who take it beyond games.

At this same time, sensationalist and partisan elements of the media are willing to blow everything way out of proportion.

I know, lamestream media is always blowing everything out of proportion.  I mean, who hasn't donned a swastika and terrorized some black clergymen in a bit of youthful folly?

Hmm...  I grew up in the awakening.  There was a good deal of youthful folly back them.  I'm assuming youngsters, and the press, haven't changed that much.

But by all means, grab a sign join, a group and march around if it turns you on.  I'd be curious to find out why or why not.
(08-15-2017, 06:34 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 06:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 04:53 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]The Russian Icebreaker, not to be confused with Arctic tourism enablement, is a means of loosening up the impediments to the conquest of The West. Let the West destroy itself from within for a  while. Make some key friends among certain factions. Then, swoop in for the kill.

Stalin was actually quite successful at it. Sure, he did not conquer all of The West. But he did manage to grab half of Europe.

That was the test run.

There are other perspectives.  Russia saw the invasions of Genghis Khan, Napoleon and Hitler, perhaps Cynic Hero's big three.  Sure, Russia was too big, Russia was too cold, and there were too damn many of them.  General Winter is excellent at defense.  Still, the notion that the world is out to get Russia is understandable, perhaps because the world has been out to get Russia.

From some accounts, Stalin was quite fearful in the early days of Barbarossa.  In many ways the Soviet World War II actions are ever so understandable.  Churchill and Roosevelt actually went out of their way to make sure Stalin remained in the war, did not make a separate peace.  Alas, autocratic government remains problematic.  I'm no Stalin fan, but you haven't got him right here.

I suggest you read "Icebreaker" by Rezun.

I went so far as to read some very very mixed reviews.  I gather it is partisan, slanted, and dubious.  I suspect it can convince those ready enough to be convinced...
(08-15-2017, 02:07 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-14-2017, 01:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Americans, prepare yourselves for the worst time in your history. Do not compromise with evil even if it has an American flag attached. And yes, that means you, Warren.

People waving Confederate flags in WWII did not bring back slavery.  People waving WWII German flags are not going to bring back Hitler.

I am surprised that you do not have a problem with admirers of the Confederacy aligning themselves with Nazis.

Quote:I'm far more worried about Antifa, as they have a direct connection to a group of elites ready to take power.  When I see you spending as much time criticizing Antifa as you do white nationalist demonstrators, I'll know we can start worrying about the white nationalists.  Until then, I'll concentrate on the greater threat.

When someone from Antifa drives his car into a crowd of right-wingers in a peaceful demonstration, then let me know.
(08-15-2017, 05:09 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 02:07 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]I'm far more worried about Antifa, as they have a direct connection to a group of elites ready to take power.  When I see you spending as much time criticizing Antifa as you do white nationalist demonstrators, I'll know we can start worrying about the white nationalists.  Until then, I'll concentrate on the greater threat.

As far as I can tell, Antifa is a consortium of privileged children doing penance,  SJW types from college campuses and simple joiners looking for a rush.  I fail to see any evidence of "a direct connection to a group of elites ready to take power". Enlighten us ... please.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/03/look-w...ley-event/
Black Lives Matter Is Not a Hate Group

This is about a year old, but I don't believe there's been any major change in the direction of BLM since then.

Quote:Each year, the Southern Poverty Law Center, of which I am the president, compiles and publishes a census of domestic hate groups

Our list, which is cited extensively by journalists, academics and government officials alike, provides an important barometer—not the only one, of course—to help us understand the state of hate and extremism in America.

In recent weeks, we’ve received a number of requests to name Black Lives Matter a hate group, particularly in the wake of the murders of eight police officers in Dallas and Baton Rouge. Numerous conservative commentators have joined the chorus. There is even a Change.org petition calling for the hate group label.

In our view, these critics fundamentally misunderstand the nature of hate groups and the BLM movement.

Generally speaking, hate groups are, by our definition, those that vilify entire groups of people based on immutable characteristics such as race or ethnicity. Federal law takes a similar approach.

While it’s no surprise, given our country’s history, that most domestic hate groups hold white supremacist views, there are a number of black organizations on our hate group list as well.

A prime example is the New Black Panther Party (NBPP), whose leaders are known for anti-Semitic and anti-white tirades. Its late chairman, Khalid Abdul Muhammad, famously remarked, “There are no good crackers, and if you find one, kill him before he changes.” Bobby Seale, a founding member of the original Black Panther Party, has called the NBPP a “black racist hate group.”

We have heard nothing remotely comparable to the NBPP’s bigotry from the founders and most prominent leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement and nothing at all to suggest that the bulk of the demonstrators hold supremacist or black separatist views.

Thousands of white people across America – indeed, people of all races – have marched in solidarity with African Americans during BLM marches, as is clear from the group’s website. The movement’s leaders also have condemned violence.

There’s no doubt that some protesters who claim the mantle of Black Lives Matter have said offensive things, like the chant “pigs in a blanket, fry ‘em like bacon” that was heard at one rally. But before we condemn the entire movement for the words of a few, we should ask ourselves whether we would also condemn the entire Republican Party for the racist words of its presumptive nominee – or for the racist rhetoric of many other politicians in the party over the course of years.   
 
Many of its harshest critics claim that Black Lives Matter’s very name is anti-white, hence the oft-repeated rejoinder “all lives matter.” This notion misses the point entirely. Black lives matter because they have been marginalized throughout our country’s history and because white lives have always mattered more in our society. As BLM puts it, the movement stands for “the simple proposition that ‘black lives also matter.’”

The backlash to BLM, in some ways, reflects a broad sense of unease among white people who worry about the cultural changes in the country and feel they are falling behind in a country that is rapidly growing more diverse in a globalizing world. We consistently see this phenomenon in surveys showing that large numbers of white people believe racial discrimination against them is as pervasive, or more so, than it is against African Americans.

It’s the same dynamic that researchers at Harvard Business School described in a recent study: White people tend to see racism as a zero-sum game, meaning that gains for African Americans come at their expense. Black people see it differently. From their point of view, the rights pie can get bigger for everyone.

Black Lives Matter is not a hate group. But the perception that it is racist illustrates the problem. Our society as a whole still does not accept that racial injustice remains pervasive. And, unfortunately, the fact that white people tend to see race as a zero-sum game may actually impede progress.
On the old forum I had posed the question of what event might be a trigger for this 4T as Harper's Ferry was to the Civil War 4T. Could the events in Charlottesville this past weekend be the one? After all, they both occurred within the same state.
(08-16-2017, 02:07 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 02:07 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-14-2017, 01:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Americans, prepare yourselves for the worst time in your history. Do not compromise with evil even if it has an American flag attached. And yes, that means you, Warren.

People waving Confederate flags in WWII did not bring back slavery.  People waving WWII German flags are not going to bring back Hitler.

I am surprised that you do not have a problem with admirers of the Confederacy aligning themselves with Nazis.

Who would you expect them to align with?  They're both justifiably lost causes.

Quote:
Quote:I'm far more worried about Antifa, as they have a direct connection to a group of elites ready to take power.  When I see you spending as much time criticizing Antifa as you do white nationalist demonstrators, I'll know we can start worrying about the white nationalists.  Until then, I'll concentrate on the greater threat.

When someone from Antifa drives his car into a crowd of right-wingers in a peaceful demonstration, then let me know.

How about when they kill several policement trying to assassinate a congressman?
(08-14-2017, 10:22 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-13-2017, 06:19 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know if I should consider it a compliment that you agreed while completely missing the point.  My point was by yelling Nazi at everyone who is slightly to the right of center, those on the right have nothing to lose by going full Nazi.  The tactic that what passes for a Left is using is not one of rational discourse, rather, it is one of shutting down all discourse, especially with those most likely to desire discourse.
What about the "feminiazis?"

I do not approve of third-wave feminism but I have refrained from using that particular epithet to describe them, and discourage it in others.
(08-15-2017, 02:42 PM)noway2 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 02:36 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, BLM and Antifa are Kremlin bootlickers, supported by GRU/Spetsnaz, anti American scum ...

ooops ... wait ... they are not.

Well, I happen to think they are scum, based upon their behavior and actions but saying they are Kremlin bootlickers or supported by the GRU / Spetsnaz is giving them too much credit.  I don't think they really understand the communism / socialism that they claim they want.

They don't.  As I pointed out earlier in this thread groups like Antifa are used my M-L parties and groups as useful idiots to be disposed of as soon as they are not useful.  Indeed when I was still a Marxist I had a comrade complain to me about the actions of some antifa groups in his locality.  I told him to indulge them for now because after they revolution they are the first to the Gulag.

As for Alphabet's statement...well everyone is a Russian agent to him.  I know because I was told this by local Wal-Mart greeter who is an FSB agent and has a direct line to President Putin. Cool
(08-15-2017, 11:45 PM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 05:59 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not inclined to believe the worst even of the racist element.  A lot of their ilk could be wearing swastika because it makes their elders over react, not because they really want to push minority folk into cattle cars heading for gas chambers.  Some people just like attention, violence and belonging.  Some will adapt beliefs to get these things.  Alas there are lone nuts and patriotic believers mixed in who take it beyond games.

At this same time, sensationalist and partisan elements of the media are willing to blow everything way out of proportion.

I know, lamestream media is always blowing everything out of proportion.  I mean, who hasn't donned a swastika and terrorized some black clergymen in a bit of youthful folly?

I don't know about you, but I would do it if only to terrorize a certain black clergyman.  But enough about my sperm donor issues. Tongue
(08-16-2017, 09:14 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]On the old forum I had posed the question of what event might be a trigger for this 4T as Harper's Ferry was to the Civil War 4T. Could the events in Charlottesville this past weekend be the one? After all, they both occurred within the same state.

Interesting question. One that I am not going to quickly dismiss out of hand as being impossible. Quoting from history.com
Quote:Brown was captured during the raid and later convicted of treason and hanged, but the raid inflamed white Southern fears of slave rebellions and increased the mounting tension between Northern and Southern states before the American Civil War (1861-65).

I will say that the defacing and desecration of historical monuments and the one sided rhetoric coming from most of the politicians, save a few such as Trump, is absolutely infuriating a subset of people, myself included. I have seen comments in a regional forum state things like: demands to take down and destroy MLK monuments and street signs, calls to start flying flags of the confederacy, arming up and defending the monuments, buying dodge chargers and going bowling when the BLM bastards block a highway, giving these antifa assholes more violence than they bargained for, and talk of buying and placing lawn jockeys. In short, this has the potential to escalate and when it does, it could get real ugly, very fast So from this perspective, yes I would say it has that possibility, or at the very least is fomenting tensions, animosity, and hatred, but would note that the feelings aren't entirely race based as the objects of ire include: BLM, snowflakes, regressives, Marxists, fascists, liberals, and other derogatory terms for "leftists".

On the other hands, I would say that this, in and of itself, is not going to be a trigger element because the timing isn't right. My feeling, which I think is backed by the 4T theory says that the climax will likely be around 2025.
(08-16-2017, 02:23 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 05:09 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 02:07 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]I'm far more worried about Antifa, as they have a direct connection to a group of elites ready to take power.  When I see you spending as much time criticizing Antifa as you do white nationalist demonstrators, I'll know we can start worrying about the white nationalists.  Until then, I'll concentrate on the greater threat.

As far as I can tell, Antifa is a consortium of privileged children doing penance,  SJW types from college campuses and simple joiners looking for a rush.  I fail to see any evidence of "a direct connection to a group of elites ready to take power". Enlighten us ... please.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/03/look-w...ley-event/

Sorry, but that's pretty small potatoes in comparison to the funding the right gets from the likes of Sheldon Adelson and the Kochs.  And let's be honest, Cornell West and George Soros are players, but they aren't power players.  On the other hand, Rupert Murdock funds an entire phalange of RW media: papers, TV outlets and networks.. So does the Sinclair Group.  And even more to the point, the right has been doing this for a very long time.   Rush Limbaugh started in talk-politics in 1984, not surprisingly, just after Reagan killed the Fairness Doctrine.

So don't pitch manure when you're standing in a cesspool.
(08-16-2017, 09:14 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]On the old forum I had posed the question of what event might be a trigger for this 4T as Harper's Ferry was to the Civil War 4T. Could the events in Charlottesville this past weekend be the one? After all, they both occurred within the same state.

Virginia in 2017 is not Virginia in 1859. John Brown, mixed up as he was, had sentiments with support in large parts of America. Fascist pigs such as the KKK and neo-Nazis have no mass support in any part of America. The killer is about as morally attractive as the late John Allen Mohammed (remember him? He was the serial killer who shot people from inside the trunk of his car. He was executed in Virginia for murders in Virginia).

We generally recognize the Klan and neo-Nazis believing things completely out of touch with any but a minuscule part of America and no part of the commercial, culture, religious, or political elites in America. 

What is exposed is the moral depravity and the incompetence of the President. We all associate Nazis with mass murder on the greatest scale in the shortest time. We associate Klan groups with support of hatred that began as nostalgia for the old slave system but that has morphed into a call for genocide once Klansmen started adopting Nazi symbols and ideology. Such is nothing new. What is new is that we have a fresh victim -- a pretty white girl with no objectionable characteristics. This is more effective for consolidating sympathy for her than does some black kid who made a fatal mistake when the cops made a fatal mistake in a lethal encounter.

Americans have never been less tolerant of ethnic, racial, sexual, and religious bigotry. Elected Republicans are scared of the crass, mealy-mouthed statements of this President. In a parliamentary system there would have been a vote of no confidence for a Prime Minister who has shown such crass indifference to the sensitivities of well over 99% of the People. We have a President who acts as if he has no responsibility except to those personally connected or sharing his ideology.

It is time for President Trump to resign for the good of America and even for the good of the Republican Party. Sure, I am a Democrat, and I recognize that it might be advantageous for my Party that a crippled President be in office so that my Party can make political gains that it cannot with someone like Mike Pence (more extreme in his economic and social agenda, but more competent).

There are just too many clear and present dangers, most obviously an insane leader in North Korea who could initiate a Korean civil war with the potential for mass death on the scale of the Rwandan genocide and the horrors of the Khmer Rouge. .
(08-16-2017, 09:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2017, 02:07 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2017, 02:07 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-14-2017, 01:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Americans, prepare yourselves for the worst time in your history. Do not compromise with evil even if it has an American flag attached. And yes, that means you, Warren.

People waving Confederate flags in WWII did not bring back slavery.  People waving WWII German flags are not going to bring back Hitler.

I am surprised that you do not have a problem with admirers of the Confederacy aligning themselves with Nazis.

Who would you expect them to align with?  They're both justifiably lost causes.

Quote:
Quote:I'm far more worried about Antifa, as they have a direct connection to a group of elites ready to take power.  When I see you spending as much time criticizing Antifa as you do white nationalist demonstrators, I'll know we can start worrying about the white nationalists.  Until then, I'll concentrate on the greater threat.

When someone from Antifa drives his car into a crowd of right-wingers in a peaceful demonstration, then let me know.

How about when they kill several policemen trying to assassinate a congressman?

Antifa is left-wing authoritarians. They would be glad to turn their enemies over to law enforcement and the legal system, ideally leading their fascist opponents to a Gulag.
(08-16-2017, 09:14 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]On the old forum I had posed the question of what event might be a trigger for this 4T as Harper's Ferry was to the Civil War 4T. Could the events in Charlottesville this past weekend be the one? After all, they both occurred within the same state.

I don't see Charlottesville as the equivalent of John Brown at Harper's Ferry, but then I don't see Harper's Ferry as the trigger to the Civil War, either.
(08-16-2017, 08:14 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]Black Lives Matter Is Not a Hate Group

This is about a year old, but I don't believe there's been any major change in the direction of BLM since then.
Even if I agree in full, which I do with some reservations, they are still a net negative on the left.  Is it any wonder that the Democrats can't win anything anywhere when their allies spend 99% of the time, and nearly that much of the political oxygen, advocating for narrow interests that are, by definition, exclusionary.  At least Bernie Sanders understands that if none of the other politicos on the left do.  
When a group calls itself Black Lives Matter, the majority of Americans hear it as Only Black Lives Matter.  That's not fair, but it is reality.  The same applies to any of the other narrow interest groups with a limited agenda that focuses on a minority rather than the whole.  You can't win with 100% support of 25% of the people.  If you don't win, you can't do anything.
(08-16-2017, 09:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
pbower Wrote:When someone from Antifa drives his car into a crowd of right-wingers in a peaceful demonstration, then let me know.

How about when they kill several policement trying to assassinate a congressman?

How about Timothy McVeigh? Come on, these are both lone-wolf cases, just like Dylan Roof. What made Charlottesville different was the context. The violence at Berkley in opposition to Milo Yiannopoulos is more similar.
(08-16-2017, 01:13 PM)noway2 Wrote: [ -> ]I will say that the defacing and desecration of historical monuments and the one sided rhetoric coming from most of the politicians, save a few such as Trump, is absolutely infuriating a subset of people, myself included.  I have seen comments in a regional forum state things like: demands to take down and destroy MLK monuments and street signs, calls to start flying flags of the confederacy, arming up and defending the monuments, buying dodge chargers and going bowling when the BLM bastards block a highway, giving these antifa assholes more violence than they bargained for, and talk of buying and placing lawn jockeys.  In short, this has the potential to escalate and when it does, it could get real ugly, very fast   So from this perspective, yes I would say it has that possibility, or at the very least is fomenting tensions, animosity, and hatred, but would note that the feelings aren't entirely race based as the objects  of ire include: BLM, snowflakes, regressives, Marxists, fascists, liberals, and other derogatory terms for "leftists".  

On the other hands, I would say that this, in and of itself, is not going to be a trigger element because the timing isn't right.  My feeling, which I think is backed by the 4T theory says that the climax will likely be around 2025.

If your argument rests on these "historical monuments" then you're already on shaky ground.  These were, for the most part, the products of unreconstructed Confederates and their kin, and intended to make the point that the Southern white man was still king in the South.  Most were erected in the early 20th century, not immediately after the ACW.  Their historical import is dubious, unless it's intended to remind everyone of segregation and, oh yeah, lynchings.
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