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(09-26-2016, 02:25 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]As for Clinton, his only concern was getting laid and so he went where the chicks were.

Sorry, I meant Hillary Clinton.  I should have clarified.
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.
(09-27-2016, 09:24 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.

True enough.  Ironically, letting the southern states leave would have ended slavery without the high body count since the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 would not have been in force.  Having, what were in effect, high cost assets walking off with no way to recover them would have made the institution uneconomic.  As it was, many northern states were using nullification, sometimes known as states rights, to make it very hard to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.

Abolitionists, such as William Lloyd Garrison, wanted the northern states to secede based on the idea that associating with slave states was immoral.  This put the abolitionists at odds with Lincoln.
(09-27-2016, 09:24 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.

Ah yeah just as i thought. That explains a lot and I do think this time around under Dionysian power, like back during the civil war times nothing will truly be settled. Not until much later. The little ones of today will begin the healing.
(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 09:24 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.

Ah yeah just as i thought. That explains a lot and I do think this time around under Dionysian power, like back during the civil war times nothing will truly be settled. Not until much later. The little ones of today will begin the healing.

Don't expect that to happen unless DC stops trying to run the lives of everyone by remote control.  I don't really see the progressives/liberals ever figuring out that the US is many societies and not just one.
(09-27-2016, 11:18 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 09:24 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.

Ah yeah just as i thought. That explains a lot and I do think this time around under Dionysian power, like back during the civil war times nothing will truly be settled. Not until much later. The little ones of today will begin the healing.

Don't expect that to happen unless DC stops trying to run the lives of everyone by remote control.  I don't really see the progressives/liberals ever figuring out that the US is many societies and not just one.
I think there will be a rebellion to that ....to a certain degree. Perhaps not in the name of freedom as that is more of a Dionysian concept. But more along the lines of addressing the issues in a sensitive way for order, fairness and closure. The little ones of today keep in mind will be growing up in a world that is screaming at one another. They will backlash on that and try to calm people and i betcha they will want to address the issues being screamed about and try to get both sides to listen and work it out. The next prophets will take it further. Here is a list that Chas has given me that will show you why I think this as well as stepping into their shoes for a bit.

Dionysian Artist = Reform!
Dionysian Prophet = Freedom!
 Dionysian Nomad = Liberty!
Dionysian Civic = Innovate!



Apollonian Artist = Amend!
Apollonian Prophet = Authority & Higher Law!
Apollonian Nomad = Tradition!
Apollonian Civic = Law &Order!




You see, I am also an Apollonian civic like your GI's. We are in the reverse saeculum here. So I am also aware of how another country emerged into the Apollonian saeculum. Our silents addressed issues which had stagnated and our prophets protested and then took it to the power of the law to cement the consensus made. It may happen in a similar sort of way over there. But it is just an example. There will be huge differences, one difference is it may be done  in a different way state by state. But the tone will change no doubt and be more about how to get along together than ripping at each others throats. It will be in a more rational (hopefully non biased) tone no doubt. Here I know that it is that way anyway. It will be interesting for me to see America enter an Apollonian era once more while NZ starts to emerge into a Dionysian saeculum. To see the differences and the similarities will be interesting as atm for me it is like seeing a country tear itself apart in comparison.
(09-27-2016, 11:53 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]You see, I am also an Apollonian civic like your GI's. We are in the reverse saeculum here. So I am also aware of how another country emerged into the Apollonian saeculum. Our silents addressed issues which had stagnated and our prophets protested and then took it to the power of the law to cement the consensus made. It may happen in a similar sort of way over there. But it is just an example. There will be huge differences, one difference is it may be done  in a different way state by state. But the tone will change no doubt and be more about how to get along together than ripping at each others throats. It will be in a more rational (hopefully non biased) tone no doubt. Here I know that it is that way anyway. It will be interesting for me to see America enter an Apollonian era once more while NZ starts to emerge into a Dionysian saeculum. To see the differences and the similarities will be interesting as atm for me it is like seeing a country tear itself apart in comparison.

The tone may change but the US is functionally bankrupt now and that will force a retrenchment of the size of government.  That will tend to force a decentralization which has already happened with legalization of pot and other matters which was unthinkable even in the seventies.  This suggests the the pre 1865 view of the Federal Government is reasserting itself.  Given other technologies that are in their infancy, it seems likely that the nation state is facing a long term secular decline. Rebellion will depend on if the political class gives in to reality.  Recent history does not make me optimistic.
(09-28-2016, 12:21 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 11:53 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]You see, I am also an Apollonian civic like your GI's. We are in the reverse saeculum here. So I am also aware of how another country emerged into the Apollonian saeculum. Our silents addressed issues which had stagnated and our prophets protested and then took it to the power of the law to cement the consensus made. It may happen in a similar sort of way over there. But it is just an example. There will be huge differences, one difference is it may be done  in a different way state by state. But the tone will change no doubt and be more about how to get along together than ripping at each others throats. It will be in a more rational (hopefully non biased) tone no doubt. Here I know that it is that way anyway. It will be interesting for me to see America enter an Apollonian era once more while NZ starts to emerge into a Dionysian saeculum. To see the differences and the similarities will be interesting as atm for me it is like seeing a country tear itself apart in comparison.

The tone may change but the US is functionally bankrupt now and that will force a retrenchment of the size of government.  That will tend to force a decentralization which has already happened with legalization of pot and other matters which was unthinkable even in the seventies.  This suggests the the pre 1865 view of the Federal Government is reasserting itself.  Given other technologies that are in their infancy, it seems likely that the nation state is facing a long term secular decline. Rebellion will depend on if the political class gives in to reality.  Recent history does not make me optimistic.

Take a look at the list for the Apollonian roles. They will sort it out. Not the current generations. They are only destroying what earlier Apollonians built. That is the role of Dionysians. To destroy the old.
(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 09:24 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.

Ah yeah just as i thought. That explains a lot and I do think this time around under Dionysian power, like back during the civil war times nothing will truly be settled. Not until much later.

I see it a little differently:  reconstruction was the "high", and was just fine for the North and for the carpetbaggers, just as the most recent "high" was just fine for the U.S. and for American GIs in Europe.  Then reconstruction was abandoned during the Missionary awakening, allowing the South to reassert itself just as Japan reasserted itself during the Boomer awakening.

(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]The little ones of today will begin the healing.

Those that survive, yes.
(09-28-2016, 09:40 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 09:24 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.

Ah yeah just as i thought. That explains a lot and I do think this time around under Dionysian power, like back during the civil war times nothing will truly be settled. Not until much later.

I see it a little differently:  reconstruction was the "high", and was just fine for the North and for the carpetbaggers, just as the most recent "high" was just fine for the U.S. and for American GIs in Europe.  Then reconstruction was abandoned during the Missionary awakening, allowing the South to reassert itself just as Japan reasserted itself during the Boomer awakening.

(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]The little ones of today will begin the healing.

Those that survive, yes.

Unfortunately when governments get into fiscal trouble of the scale the West has now they choose to go to war since people are more willing to sacrifice their interests in the name of blind patriotism.  Now western governments have nukes and so they need either a war against an indefinable enemy and no well defined victory condition.  If the War on Terror is insufficient then a civil war might do the trick.  The last thing a politician ever wants to do is admit that the promises of the past can not be kept since it threatens their career.
(09-28-2016, 09:40 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-27-2016, 09:24 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 03:06 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]I am unfamiliar with the aftermath of the civil war so I do not know how things were patched up after it.

There were a couple decades of "reconstruction", during which carpetbaggers from the north went south to lord it over southerners.  Then southern whites regained power and we got the institutionalized racism that lasted from the late 19th century to 1960 or so.  Basically there was no patching up, just continued disagreement with one side winning at a time.

Ah yeah just as i thought. That explains a lot and I do think this time around under Dionysian power, like back during the civil war times nothing will truly be settled. Not until much later.

I see it a little differently:  reconstruction was the "high", and was just fine for the North and for the carpetbaggers, just as the most recent "high" was just fine for the U.S. and for American GIs in Europe.  Then reconstruction was abandoned during the Missionary awakening, allowing the South to reassert itself just as Japan reasserted itself during the Boomer awakening.

(09-27-2016, 02:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]The little ones of today will begin the healing.

Those that survive, yes.
It is usually that way though. Those that do not think things are "fine" become the new minorities. I have a question. I have seen you use the word "carpetbaggers" several times. That is not a term used in New Zealand so this kiwi wants to know what it means.
(09-29-2016, 12:19 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It is usually that way though. Those that do not think things are "fine" become the new minorities. I have a question. I have seen you use the word "carpetbaggers" several times. That is not a term used in New Zealand so this kiwi wants to know what it means.

It means exactly what it says, a bag made out of carpet.  Think of it as the nineteenth century equivalent of modern luggage.
(09-29-2016, 12:23 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:19 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It is usually that way though. Those that do not think things are "fine" become the new minorities. I have a question. I have seen you use the word "carpetbaggers" several times. That is not a term used in New Zealand so this kiwi wants to know what it means.

It means exactly what it says, a bag made out of carpet.  Think of it as the nineteenth century equivalent of modern luggage.

Ok I still did not understand it as we have none of those terms here. I think Americans speak another language at times. I had to look it up. NOW i understand it.

"
  1. a political candidate who seeks election in an area where they have no local connections.
    • British
      a person who becomes a member of a mutually owned building society or insurance company in order to gain financially in the event of the organization demutualizing.
(09-29-2016, 12:32 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:23 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:19 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It is usually that way though. Those that do not think things are "fine" become the new minorities. I have a question. I have seen you use the word "carpetbaggers" several times. That is not a term used in New Zealand so this kiwi wants to know what it means.

It means exactly what it says, a bag made out of carpet.  Think of it as the nineteenth century equivalent of modern luggage.

Ok I still did not understand it as we have none of those terms here. I think Americans speak another language at times. I had to look it up. NOW i understand it.

"
  1. a political candidate who seeks election in an area where they have no local connections.
    • British
      a person who becomes a member of a mutually owned building society or insurance company in order to gain financially in the event of the organization demutualizing.

It was a term coined in the nineteenth century and only used now in connection with Reconstruction after the War Between the States.  I really wouldn't expect you to know it unless you had an interest in US history.  These people were, not entirely without reason, considered to be scum of the earth.

Imagine how most Americans would react to the language used in Blackadder.  Its the same problem going the other way.  Its one of the reasons most Americans find British humor to be a difficult concept.
(09-29-2016, 01:32 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:32 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:23 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:19 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It is usually that way though. Those that do not think things are "fine" become the new minorities. I have a question. I have seen you use the word "carpetbaggers" several times. That is not a term used in New Zealand so this kiwi wants to know what it means.

It means exactly what it says, a bag made out of carpet.  Think of it as the nineteenth century equivalent of modern luggage.

Ok I still did not understand it as we have none of those terms here. I think Americans speak another language at times. I had to look it up. NOW i understand it.

"
  1. a political candidate who seeks election in an area where they have no local connections.
    • British
      a person who becomes a member of a mutually owned building society or insurance company in order to gain financially in the event of the organization demutualizing.

It was a term coined in the nineteenth century and only used now in connection with Reconstruction after the War Between the States.  I really wouldn't expect you to know it unless you had an interest in US history.  These people were, not entirely without reason, considered to be scum of the earth.

Imagine how most Americans would react to the language used in Blackadder.  Its the same problem going the other way.  Its one of the reasons most Americans find British humor to be a difficult concept.
Yeah i would find it a lot easier i imagine understanding language used in blackadder as my immediate family was born and raised in England as well as australia/nz. I use terms from all of those places with my mixed accent. I have a touch of a british accent. Quite easy to understand British language and phrases they use (for me anyway). International phrases fascinate me.
(09-29-2016, 12:32 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:23 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:19 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It is usually that way though. Those that do not think things are "fine" become the new minorities. I have a question. I have seen you use the word "carpetbaggers" several times. That is not a term used in New Zealand so this kiwi wants to know what it means.

It means exactly what it says, a bag made out of carpet.  Think of it as the nineteenth century equivalent of modern luggage.

Ok I still did not understand it as we have none of those terms here. I think Americans speak another language at times. I had to look it up. NOW i understand it.
"
  1. a political candidate who seeks election in an area where they have no local connections.
    • British
      a person who becomes a member of a mutually owned building society or insurance company in order to gain financially in the event of the organization demutualizing.

The Wikipedia entry matches my meaning better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger
(09-29-2016, 02:13 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:32 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:23 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2016, 12:19 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It is usually that way though. Those that do not think things are "fine" become the new minorities. I have a question. I have seen you use the word "carpetbaggers" several times. That is not a term used in New Zealand so this kiwi wants to know what it means.

It means exactly what it says, a bag made out of carpet.  Think of it as the nineteenth century equivalent of modern luggage.

Ok I still did not understand it as we have none of those terms here. I think Americans speak another language at times. I had to look it up. NOW i understand it.
"
  1. a political candidate who seeks election in an area where they have no local connections.
    • British
      a person who becomes a member of a mutually owned building society or insurance company in order to gain financially in the event of the organization demutualizing.

The Wikipedia entry matches my meaning better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger
ok thank you for the link
(09-26-2016, 01:07 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 11:05 AM)The Wonkette Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-26-2016, 02:25 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]As for economic failure the worst seems to be North Korea, Cuba and, my personal favorite, Venezuela.  Eric the Obtuse and his ilk are too fucking stupid to figure out that the MIC is a product of statism and big government.   As for Clinton, his only concern was getting laid and so he went where the chicks were.

North Korea, Cuba, and Venezuela are basket cases, but they are also straw men; I don't know anyone from the "left" who sees those nations as ideal.  Bernie Sanders and his ilk tend to point to countries like Norway, Denmark, and Sweden, nations that do have their issues but on the whole are prosperous and functioning well, despite having a robust set of government services (health care, parental leave, unemployment benefits, and the like).

Sweden has had to scale back their welfare state in nineties.  They are not doing so well now that a large portion of the Middle East has shown up on their doorstep.  In any case all of these countries have the same problems with debt that the rest of the west has.  In any event the more central planning is done then the less well your economy does.  The left generally doesn't understand economics at all and so completely discounts these effects.

Sweden chose to scale back in the '90s.  It was a choice that has been reversed since then.  But let's get to your underlying, though unstated, assumption that these economies lack dynamism.  Actually, they are among the most entrepreneurial due in large part to the low cost of failure.  Sure, they can lose their investments of time and money, but it won't devastate those entrepreneurs or their families.  They will have the safety net to rely on, and will be able to recover fairly easily ... and they know it.  How else is it possible for such small nations to have such huge economic impacts in the world?
(09-28-2016, 12:21 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]The tone may change but the US is functionally bankrupt now and that will force a retrenchment of the size of government.  That will tend to force a decentralization which has already happened with legalization of pot and other matters which was unthinkable even in the seventies.  This suggests the pre 1865 view of the Federal Government is reasserting itself.  Given other technologies that are in their infancy, it seems likely that the nation state is facing a long term secular decline. Rebellion will depend on if the political class gives in to reality.  Recent history does not make me optimistic.

I don't think it's wise to bank on a return to an era that has virtually nothing in common with the present.  We are seeing a worldwide move to disintegrate political unions of all types, EU, UK ... even the Czechs and Slovaks went their separate ways.  Something of that ilk may occur in the US, but it won't lead to a nation-of-states, like the earlier vision of the US.  It's more likely that a schism occurs, followed by the creation of two or three entities with more not less internal integration.  Even that is unlikely, but a lot more reasonable than a union that consists of a herd of cats.
(09-28-2016, 11:34 PM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately when governments get into fiscal trouble of the scale the West has now they choose to go to war since people are more willing to sacrifice their interests in the name of blind patriotism.  Now western governments have nukes and so they need either a war against an indefinable enemy and no well defined victory condition.  If the War on Terror is insufficient then a civil war might do the trick.  The last thing a politician ever wants to do is admit that the promises of the past can not be kept since it threatens their career.

I actually agree that it's easier to sell the public on massive spending during wartime than for peaceful pursuits.  You seem to agree, so why is weaponized Keynesianism preferable to the same actions without the pretense?  We know that massive spending works to kick start the economy when it gets bogged down, and  we also know that growth and mild inflation makes the accumulated debt unimportant in the not too distant future: witness the dramatic change between1945 and 1973 on all the war debt that was never paid down by a single dime:
[Image: 51129-land-summaryfigure1%281%29.png]
Those were also the best years the US economy and, more to the point, US workers have experienced ever!  We could do that again, focusing on building a 21st century infrastructure that we will need soon in any case.  Of course, the less progressive among us will argue that this needs to be a private sector undertaking, all evidence to the contrary.
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