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  The bias of a saeculum towards a specific artform
Posted by: naf140230 - 05-15-2016, 11:01 PM - Forum: Society and Culture - Replies (12)

Quote:you know its a 4th turning because the culture and values forum is gathering dust.

something's been on my mind for a while. and thats how different saeculums offer great cultural masterpieces in some mediums, but seem to completely fail in others.

for instance, the current cycle will be very well remembered for its music, as well as its movies. however the visual arts that have been made from the 60s onwards is mostly garbage. There are still a couple of living renowned painters, the pop artist David Hockney comes to mind, but his time came and went long ago. I could also name a couple of Australian painters like Peter Booth and Pro Hart, but that may be due to Australia's relatively thin history of any sort of cultural achievement whatsoever [Image: frown.png]

regardless the visual arts of the late 20th century, apart from some notable photographers, will be best remembered for gimmicky stunts like stained bedsheets and sharks in formaldehyde. As i said, it seemed the rot really set in after 50s/60s Pop Art. From that point, the most creatively gifted kids chose to pick up the guitar rather than the paintbrush. There have certainly been good artists, but none that have entered the popular memory, if you're deeply connected with art circles you might know some names, but the average man on the street won't.

But the Jazz age cycle shows a different story. Painting was at its zenith, probably its most socially relevant point since the Rennaisance. From Van Gogh to Pollock we basically see a pattern similar to popular music post WW2: Like Elvis and the early rockers, Impressionists such as Van Gogh never created anything necessarily complex or intentionally offensive, but the mere fact that it just looked so different from all the other art out there caused a public furore. They were told they couldn't paint properly by the older establishment, they weren't allowed to exhibit work, they were outcasts without really trying too hard. As fin-de-siecle Paris made way for the new century, new revolutionaries emerged. The German expressionists such as Kirchner, then Picasso and Braque, and then a crazy splintering of all sorts of artistic factions: futurism, constructivism, vorticism, dada, de-stijl, and so on. After WW1 the idealism turned to cynicism (a number of prominent artists, driven by their nationalist ideals, died in the war). They declared the world absurd, painters like Di-Chirico made great work infected with a social commentary, eery empty landscapes a reflection of the great loss of humanity just suffered. Other artists would come to be influenced by the frenetic energy of Jazz music. But the art started to get abit crazy. Rauschenburg famously did a "reverse-artwork", erasing a completed De-Kooning piece and exhibiting what was basically a blank sheet of paper. This, along with Marcel Duchamp's readymades, is what i consider to have basically lit the fuse that caused the mass calamity that is contemporary art. What began as the free and lively notion "that art can be anything" has left art not even knowing what it is. Judgement, criticism and taste were being murdered. as the 1920s and 1930s progress, there were still some prominent pieces being offered, by the guys who'd been doing it for 30 years as well as with the emergence of the Surrealists (who could be considered a form of 4T escapism), and later the Abstract Expressionists. Dali, Khalo and Pollock are great painters from the GI generation, the Pop-artists that followed them would be late GIs and Silents, but thereafter the well runs dry.

When i was in the states last year one of the lasting impressions were the Diego Rivera murals, usually a tribute to the people of whatever city it was in. They were amazing. Its hard to imagine how a visual artist now would pay such a sentimental tribute to the workers of today. The legacy lives on though, you can hear it every now and again even in common bar talk. some guy makes a doodle on a napkin and says "oh im no Van Gogh". Novels are another prominent legacy from that cycle, it seems many people past say age 65 say they wanted to be writers when they were young, because many of the greatest cultural idols were writers. Obviously technology plays a part in this. the popularity of the novel exploded in the 19th century due to advances in printing and the eventual invention of the typewriter. The aforementioned modernism era in painting was somewhat forced upon by artists because the invention of photography had made redundant the need for realism and accuracy. People wanted to achieve something in paint that the photograph couldn't manage. The popularity of music in the current cycle can be attributed to the emergence of the affordable LP and record player, not to mention the inventions of radio and television. But with the destruction of the music market thanks to online piracy, i have my doubts as to whether the next generation of artists and prophets will take to music as enthusiastically as the silents and boomers did.

I can see this rant is already too long so i'll end it there. other thoughts on this notion?

myk'87's comment on the previous website merits discussion. Here is the URL: http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/showt...ic-artform

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  What the “special topics” forum should be used for
Posted by: Webmaster - 05-15-2016, 09:34 PM - Forum: Announcements - No Replies

Since the special topics forum at the old forum was a mix of light hearted discussion like the “what’s going on with you” thread and stray political topics, I’ve decided to define to forum as the “lounge” for light hearted discussion.  Serious topics should be avoided) unless something serious is happening in your personal life and want to mention it) and the personal attacks should be completely off limits.

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  What the “special topics” forum should be used for
Posted by: Webmaster - 05-15-2016, 09:33 PM - Forum: Special Topics/G-T Lounge - No Replies

Since the special topics forum at the old forum was a mix of light hearted discussion like the “what’s going on with you” thread and stray political topics, I’ve decided to define to forum as the “lounge” for light hearted discussion.  Serious topics should be avoided) unless something serious is happening in your personal life and want to mention it) and the personal attacks should be completely off limits.

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  the old forum's most prolific posters
Posted by: Dan '82 - 05-15-2016, 09:16 PM - Forum: Special Topics/G-T Lounge - Replies (14)

With the old forum shutting down tonight here are the most prolific posters:

Eric the GreenSenior Member

Marx & LennonSenior Member

pbrower2aSenior Member

OdinSenior Member

Child of SocratesSenior Member

Brian RushSenior Member

Justin '77Senior Member

playwriteSenior Member

Chas'88Senior Member

HopefulCynic68Senior Member

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  Video limit
Posted by: Webmaster - 05-15-2016, 07:43 PM - Forum: Announcements - No Replies

I've increased the video limit to 5 videos per post.

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  Karl Popper on Religion
Posted by: radind - 05-15-2016, 04:47 PM - Forum: Religion, Spirituality and Astrology - Replies (52)

I find Popper an interesting thinker.

Quote:Karl Popper on Religion, Science and Toleration

… "It is necessary to make it quite clear that I am speaking here about religion in a very general way. Although I always have Christianity in mind, I want to speak in sufficiently general terms to include all other religions and especially religions like Buddhism, Islam or Judaism. Everybody agrees that these are religions. I shall…extend the term even further.
He suggested that a person can be considered religious if he or she has some faith that provides a basis for practical living, in the manner of people who appeal to an orthodox religious faith to guide their moral principles, their actions and their proposals for social improvement. He insisted that science has no answers in the search for these principles, though of course science and technology become all-important once we have decided on our aims.
By invoking the idea that we are all motivated by some kind of faith (which he chose to call our religion) he hoped to get over the dispute between the militant atheists (who he regarded as proponents of the religion of atheism) and people of orthodox religious beliefs. He wanted to get past the issue “Have you a religion or not” to address the question “What are the principles of your religion?” – “Is it a good religion or a bad religion?”
He was in favour of “good” religions, including the faiths of secular humanists, which promote the core values of the great religions – honesty, compassion, service, peace and especially the non-coercive unity of mankind. Against these good religions he identified the evil religions of totalitarianism (communism and fascism), and the persecution of heretics. He pointed out that even as science can be misused, so can religions, including Christianity.”…
… "He then moved on to the differences between liberals and socialists. The socialists assert that the state should provide much more than the minimum. Popper, like the liberals, saw this as an ever-present danger that the state will grow, and corrupt and inefficient bureaucracies with it. He had a foot in each camp, not a comfortable position and one that made him owned and disowned by both sides (mostly disowned). His aim was to find some way to reconcile the differences between the two camps.
He thought this could be done by addressing simultaneously the evils that each side identified, that is, by addressing the downsides of too much liberalism (unlimited economic freedom and no public welfare) and on the other side too much state power (loss of freedom in the servile state, bureaucratic or worse). He thought that this resolution was blocked by the degree of attachment on each side to their pet loves and hates – on one side the love of economic freedom, on the other side the utopian vision of socialism.”…

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  4T? What 4T?
Posted by: Anthony '58 - 05-15-2016, 09:52 AM - Forum: Turnings - Replies (77)

We have the same economy as in the 1920s, the same hard sectionalism as in the 1850s, and the same faddish hostility toward taxes as in 1765-1775 - all late Unravelings.

Forget about whether we have achieved the regeneracy yet.  We haven't even achieved the catalyst yet!

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  We are getting old.
Posted by: pbrower2a - 05-15-2016, 09:10 AM - Forum: Baby Boomers - Replies (141)

I found this in the old Obituaries thread in the T4T forum from 2012. As I discussed the death of Davy Jones at age 66 from what sounded like an old man's disease which elicits more sympathy from me than does wrecking one's body with drugs, booze, or extreme obesity.

pbrower2a Wrote:I have plenty of euphemisms for my age -- as in "It's a young 56" that I can justify because I don't have diabetes or liver problems -- and I still have good knees. I'd like to lose about as many pounds as I have years, and I would rather be around people who act and think young. A gout attack can remind me of how old I am and compel me to use handicap parking. Without gout, I can do some hiking and swimming. I'd rather be where I can do both.

But I know how old I am when I expose how much a Boomer I am through my knowledge, my memories (I can remember John F. Kennedy!), and my tastes in music (classical -- and I miss the large selections of CDs of classical music that used to be accessible) and especially movies. I expose my age when I find that the mass culture no longer fits me. I also know that advertisers have little use for me unless it is for items and experiences for the elderly.

But just as 16 and 16 and is short of adulthood even for someone mature for the age, 56 is 56 and is clearly no longer young even if one is intellectually alert and in generally good health. Could I be a good influence upon teenagers? Almost certainly. But don't expect me to be so much a pal as a mentor. If I should ever marry a woman with children I might share A Clockwork Orange with her but keep it under lock and key because it is an R-rated movie... and Meet Me in St. Louis with her and the kids.

Addendum, as one might expect after four years

Update: I have lost 20 of those pounds.

I have also lost lots of old relatives, too. I wonder if I am getting obsolete.

....Maybe I need to develop the knack for code-switching when referring to time. Introducing the past to people who might learn from it isn't all bad. That is the most benign way to preserve the past. Preserving old neuroses, bigotry, sentimentality, and corrupt institutions is hurtful, and such does more to hurt the young and ultimately alienate them from the old than even difference.

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  Science and Buddhism Agree: There is No 'You' There
Posted by: taramarie - 05-14-2016, 10:18 PM - Forum: Religion, Spirituality and Astrology - Replies (26)

Eric and Odin no doubt will be interested in this. (I have not read it yet. On strong pain meds atm for my tooth) but others will be interested in this no doubt. Eric and Odin came to mind as soon as i saw it.


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  Propaganda and the 4T
Posted by: pbrower2a - 05-14-2016, 08:34 PM - Forum: Society and Culture - Replies (4)

Extracted from an old discussion (from 2010):

Propaganda is the norm of 4T communication. Details of reality recede before a desired and sponsored image, whether it is the mind-numbing pageantry of Triumph of the Will or the sophisticated (but tightly-scripted) banter in Casablanca.


Any political entity in Crisis mode must get people to do things contrary to the usual assumptions of ease and hedonism in other times. Nobody now pretends that the war work was easy or perfectly safe. Women who a few years earlier would have been troubled by a broken fingernail and were averse to the aesthetic offense that was the factory had to replace men who had gone off to war. The American soldier, now the Real Man, had to do combat but needed all the supplies available of ammunition, weapons, transport equipment, fuel, and of course food. Rosie the Riveter was almost a Socialist-Realist stereotype that one might expect in the Soviet Union, then the epitome of regimentation and shared sacrifice, at least in its own propaganda -- that one could do heavy, dangerous work and still be very much a woman.

The real Rosie the Riveter almost never looked so good as did the poster image. She was often a middle-aged, chain-smoking, foul-mouthed woman who had worked to supplement a meager living. The poster image was never a black or Hispanic woman. The woman with a career as a factory worker looked it. Maybe it was to appeal to the margin of people who might otherwise do trivial work or stay at home and be 100% domestic. The model for the Norman Rockwell image on the Saturday Evening Post cover proves as marginal as a defense-plant worker could be.

We are now at least five years away from the conclusion of a Crisis era, and probably ten. It is unlikely that the most successful appeals of the American elite will be the glorification of elite greed, the brutality of rapacious plutocrats through their enforcers, or the promotion of the fake populism of anti-intellectualism. We are at most in the Dust Bowl phase of this Crisis era, and if anything the 2010 election shows that the American electorate still pines for the promises of cakes and circuses as a substitute for economic justice.

Americans in the Second World War didn't fight on behalf of the "economic royalists", whether big landowners in the South or heirs of Gilded-Age fortunes. Such would have been failure. That said, we are now being asked to give our all -- and get as little as possible, especially economic security and economic justice, on behalf of elites that now look like the sorts of aristocratic plunderers that many American fled from in Russia, English-ruled Ireland, feudal Mexico, southern Italy, and the most backward parts of the German and Austrian empires. Let us not forget the great internal migration of blacks from the old South, where ownership was everything and toil came with serfdom in all but name.

Work has dignity only when it is well-paid reward for genuine toil. This Crisis will not be won by the investment bankers, by executives who affect aristocratic lifestyles while aping Simon Legree, or by gangsters.

Update: We seem to have made no progress toward the resolution of the existing Crisis Era in the last six years. The 2014 midterm election was an unambiguous victory for the economic royalists of our time. America can become the sort of society in which almost all human efforts go to paying off economic elites who who better resemble feudal lords than capitalists. We will be taxed to indulge an elite that offers neither representation (the US House of Representatives now better serves political donors than the people in districts) nor service. We are now at least five, and perhaps ten, years away from the resolution of this Crisis.

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