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+---- Thread: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory (/thread-401.html)
If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - X_4AD_84 - 08-23-2016
The polls say otherwise but we cannot know what sorts of chicanery and intrigue may arise out of nowhere, when the Kremlin is directly interfering in a US election.
Thus far the interference has not risen to the level where the actual voting process is impaired, or, where a mass disinformation op throws a monkey wrench into the works very late in the campaign season.
I must wonder - if there were obvious major interference in the election, and, against all odds, it ended up installing Trump, how would the FBI, CIA and Military react?
My guess is there would be an armed struggle for power between the illegitimate Executive Branch and its "children" in those departments.
Into the chaos - Russia / the SCO may then try to do a sneak attack while we are caught up in a Civil War (but not one of the "Red" vs "Blue" variety - it would be one within the Executive Branch).
Or, Russia / the SCO would back the Trump faction and overtly install a puppet government atop the ashes of what used to be the legitimate US Government.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Eric the Green - 08-24-2016
My guess is that the CIA would do nothing and just go along. After all, Trump would be in charge and appointing its leaders.
I think Russia or another power might well insert itself into our civil war, if we had one, and any such civil war is certainly going to be "red vs. blue." A Trump presidency would be bound to incite one, and Trump himself might try to do so if and when he loses. He has threatened to do so, in fact, if he loses. It could be an opening salvo, like one of the similar events through the 1850s.
It doesn't matter if Trump is not entirely ideologically red; he is virtually so, and he now represents the parts of the red coalition most likely to revolt (the xenophobes, the tax haters, and the gun nuts).
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 08-24-2016
The Russian Mafia is the most dangerous organized-crime syndicate of them all. It is as ruthless and callous as the old (but dying) Sicilian mob and the now-extinct Jewish mobs of the 1930s but far more pervasive. It's more than drugs, gambling, loan-sharking, human trafficking, and porn. It's also political corruption. If it can insinuate itself into the American political process, then our political process is in deep trouble. We then have a security breach far more dangerous than those that the nuclear spies (the Rosenberg-Greenglass ring) of the 1950s. But the Rosenberg-Greenglass ring was ideological. The Russian Mafia is economic and political.
Jihadist terrorists are outrages. But they have little organization. For real menace, look at the Russian Mafia. It may have no religious connection; it's mostly people who believe in nothing but their own gain and indulgence. But that also describes America's economic elites who differ most obviously in liking to keep their hands clean of any connection to violence. The Russian Mafia has no qualms about violence -- only about getting caught.
Organized crime can be another oppressive and exploitative economic elite. Beware!
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Anthony '58 - 08-26-2016
Fuck the Ukrainian Nazi wingnuts.
I hope Putin destroys them.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 08-26-2016
(08-26-2016, 07:33 AM)Anthony Wrote: (vile word redacted) the Ukrainian Nazi wingnuts.
I hope Putin destroys them.
I have no use for the authoritarian wingnuts of any culture. Maybe because I know the American authoritarian wingnuts so well I find them especially odious. But let me try to see things from an Ukrainian angle. Consider that a rather populous nation has been trivialized for its expressions of any unique culture for centuries -- by the Turks, the Poles, the Russians and in turn the Soviets, the Hungarians, the Austrians, and the Romanians. Even the Nazis, who might have had a chance at establishing a natural ally in Ukraine hostile to the Poles and Russians, ignored Ukrainian efforts to establish a national culture unlike the case in Croatia. (The alternative history novel that I intend to write some day has German leadership fostering Ukrainian independence and having a powerful ally in the Crusade against Bolshevism. Ukraine gets its rightful place among countries with much the same potential for cultural achievement -- like England, France, Spain, and Italy -- after all it has a population of similar sizer and a potentially-diverse economy. Of course the Germany is not Nazi Germany! Stalin is still evil -- and I have to think of a fitting end for him. His plane in which he tries to escape to America crashing near the North Pole? Beria, Molotov, Zhdanov, Vishinsky, and Kaganovich of course are executed for crimes against humanity... In this scenario it is America that has become the Evil Empire due to the Invisible Empire.
Ukraine has the potential to be a big player on the world scene after having been suppressed for centuries. Don't let Putin fool you. He has his dreams of a Greater Russia that includes the Baltic states and Finland... maybe Poland -- with a sanitary cordon of puppet states.
Let Ukraine be Ukraine... and while we are at it, free Tibet!
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Anthony '58 - 08-26-2016
Having a beef with the Jews because you have empathy with the plight of the Palestinians is one thing. But sticking up for a bunch of neo-fascist thugs who petrol-bomb synagogues and bash Roma (Gypsies) over the head with baseball bats (who knew that baseball was so popular in Ukraine?) because they think it's still 1941 and they're seeking "closure" for the Holomodor is beyond the pale - especially for a self-fancying "progressive" like The Primal Screamer, Howard Dean, who called these dirtbags our "allies" on MSNBC yesterday.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Anthony '58 - 08-26-2016
But shouldn't we try to avoid making the same mistake we made in the former Yugoslavia; namely, considering a Communist tyrant's internal borders to be sacrosanct? Tito gerrymandered the borders of the Yugoslav "republics" to intentionally maroon millions of Yugoslavs in the "wrong" republic, figuring that this would prevent "nationalism" from coalescing. Khrushchev did the same thing in 1956, awarding Crimea and the Donets Basin to the Ukrainian S.S.R. despite their Russian majorities.
And in both cases, combating radical Islam also needs to guide our policy-making. It sure didn't under Bill Clinton. Now, going forward, under Hillary Clinton (?).
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Eric the Green - 08-26-2016
(08-26-2016, 03:07 PM)Anthony 58 Wrote: Having a beef with the Jews because you have empathy with the plight of the Palestinians is one thing. But sticking up for a bunch of neo-fascist thugs who petrol-bomb synagogues and bash Roma (Gypsies) over the head with baseball bats (who knew that baseball was so popular in Ukraine?) because they think it's still 1941 and they're seeking "closure" for the Holomodor is beyond the pale - especially for a self-fancying "progressive" like The Primal Screamer, Howard Dean, who called these dirtbags our "allies" on MSNBC yesterday.
No, Howard Dean didn't do that. Dean (I would imagine) is sticking up for those people in Ukraine who want to be free from corrupt Russian thug influence, who are NOT neo-fascist thugs (that's most of the people of Ukraine).
But I looked; I couldn't find any videos online of Howard Dean even mentioning the issue of neo-Nazi Ukrainians, let alone supporting them as our allies.
Of course many Muslims are our allies, if that's what you mean. Of course they are; we can't defeat the IS without them.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Anthony '58 - 08-29-2016
Dean denounced Trump for supporting Putin against "our ally," Ukraine.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Eric the Green - 08-29-2016
(08-29-2016, 07:22 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: Dean denounced Trump for supporting Putin against "our ally," Ukraine.
I couldn't find any video or article of this; do you have a reference?
In any case, yes, Trump is wrong for supporting Putin against Ukraine. Ukraine is not officially our "ally," but Europe and USA have put sanctions on Russia for its unjustified conquests and invasions of Ukraine. Big nations should not invade smaller nations. The People of Ukraine were right to rise up in their Arab Spring era revolution and throw out their pro-Russian, corrupt dictator. They want the right to look westward toward democracy and economic progress. Some people in the east and Crimea want to join Russia. The UN should be allowed to sponsor an election in these areas, with no other troops on the ground there, and let the people choose by popular sovereignty what nation they choose to belong to, and have done with it. There may be a few neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine, but stop calling the Ukrainians neo-Nazis! They just want their freedom.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 09-14-2016
I read the article. Putin is in many ways a throwback to the old Soviet practice of cultivating the sympathy of the gullible capable of accepting any propaganda from Russia and anyone willing to do the bidding of the Russian leader. In Soviet times the ideology was obvious enough -- Marxism-Leninism. Today it is just about the power of the Russian State and elites within the Russian economy.
Needless to say I distrust him. I'd be wary of some of the secessionist movements, especially one in Alaska. Someone might be interested in having an 'independent' Alaska secede, the new parliament of the short-lived republic having as its first topic of business a request for reunification with Russia.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 09-14-2016
On the other hand I might be interested in secession of Michigan should Donald Trump be elected. But if Michigan would secede it would show an interest in joining Canada, which would be an improvement even today.
I question whether Canada would want us.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Eric the Green - 09-17-2016
I guess such a war might result if the rump USA becomes an ally of Russia. I don't think the rump USA would fall that far into Russia's orbit, that quickly. As much as Dixie loves Trump, they still would be averse to joining forces with Putin and the old Soviet Bolsheviks.
I could see almost the entire group of blue states joining Canada if Trump wins and establishes a direction he seems to be setting in his campaign. From my point of view, it's climate change that will be a main issue. States like CA are getting even tougher now on the fossil fuel barons, and the coal belt trumped up by Trump might not stand for it. And the blue states might be raising state taxes even as the Trumped-up Feds give even more breaks to the wealthy.
It would be an interesting new nation. Most of the blue states are part of a contiguous group that adjoins Canada. The Great Lakes states would be the last to join this new confederation, and it would be a strange contiguous belt. But we would feel that we are part of a sane nation instead of saddled with a bunch of southern and hillbilly crazies. We would be one nation that runs up and down the entire west coast down to the Mexican border and includes Hawaii, then reaches way up to Alberta and its neighbors and crosses over to the Great Lakes region, and then to the upper east coast. Alaska would be cut off; but it already is. New Mexico could join Old Mexico if it wanted to.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 09-30-2016
(09-17-2016, 11:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I guess such a war might result if the rump USA becomes an ally of Russia. I don't think the rump USA would fall that far into Russia's orbit, that quickly. As much as Dixie loves Trump, they still would be averse to joining forces with Putin and the old Soviet Bolsheviks.
I could see almost the entire group of blue states joining Canada if Trump wins and establishes a direction he seems to be setting in his campaign. From my point of view, it's climate change that will be a main issue. States like CA are getting even tougher now on the fossil fuel barons, and the coal belt trumped up by Trump might not stand for it. And the blue states might be raising state taxes even as the Trumped-up Feds give even more breaks to the wealthy.
It would be an interesting new nation. Most of the blue states are part of a contiguous group that adjoins Canada. The Great Lakes states would be the last to join this new confederation, and it would be a strange contiguous belt. But we would feel that we are part of a sane nation instead of saddled with a bunch of southern and hillbilly crazies. We would be one nation that runs up and down the entire west coast down to the Mexican border and includes Hawaii, then reaches way up to Alberta and its neighbors and crosses over to the Great Lakes region, and then to the upper east coast. Alaska would be cut off; but it already is. New Mexico could join Old Mexico if it wanted to.
I would suggest that California, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington try to establish strong links to Japan if Canada is not available. Note that a large chunk of Texas, including just about everything south of the corridors of I-10, US-290, and I-10, might wish to secede, too.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Anthony '58 - 10-08-2016
But speaking of Donald Trump and all things Russian, could Russia - and specifically, the Far East of Russia - be where millions of conservative Americans would emigrate to if they lose this election, or the 2020 election, or a Second Civil War - the way the "Confederados" emigrated to Brazil after the original Civil War?
Think about it: Dating back to the Czarist days, the Russians have been desperately seeking to develop their Far East region - Vladivostok, Nakhodka, Komsomolsk-na-Amure, etc. - and Southern American immigrants would give them the manpower to do it. Oh yes, the emigrants would learn Russian and the Cyrillic alphabet - but they would remain proud Southern Baptists or Pentecostals rather than embracing Russian Orthodoxy, and maintain their virulent anti-black and anti-gay attitudes.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Odin - 10-08-2016
Given how Southerners seem to think it's the end of the world when they get an inch of snow they probably wouldn't survive a winter over there!
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 10-08-2016
Getting accustomed to Russian culture would be a huge improvement for those people.
But would they enjoy the music of Tchaikovsky as many sophisticated Americans do?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Bob Butler 54 - 10-08-2016
(10-08-2016, 08:03 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: But would they enjoy the music of Tchaikovsky as many sophisticated Americans do?
They like fiddles, but not that many fiddles.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 10-08-2016
Is this what you mean by "too many fiddles"?
(Tchaikovsky, Serenade for String Orchestra)
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Ragnarök_62 - 10-08-2016
(10-08-2016, 06:39 PM)Odin Wrote: Given how Southerners seem to think it's the end of the world when they get an inch of snow they probably wouldn't survive a winter over there!
http://www.newson6.com/story/16631438/remembering-oklahomas-blizzard-2011
Huh? We have it all, man. Heat waves, blizzards, earthquakes, and tornadoes.