(06-19-2018, 12:58 PM)David Horn Wrote: This issue may be Trump's bridge-too-far.  Most adults have children, and abusing children doesn't sit well at the visceral level.

Quote:American voters oppose 66 - 27 percent the policy of separating children and parents when families illegally cross the border into America, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today.

Republican voters support the separation policy 55 - 35 percent, the only listed party, gender, education, age or racial group to support it, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe- ack) University National Poll finds.

American voters also support 79 - 15 percent allowing immigrants who were brought to the U.S. as children, so-called "Dreamers," to remain and ultimately to apply for citizenship.

All listed groups support Dreamers, ranging from 61 - 28 percent among Republicans to 94 - 5 percent among Democrats.

Support for Dreamers has ranged from 77 percent to 81 percent in every Quinnipiac University National Poll conducted this year.

American voters oppose 58 - 39 percent building a wall along the border with Mexico. The only listed groups to support the wall are Republicans 77 - 17 percent and white voters with no college degree 52 - 44 percent.

The Trump Administration has been too aggressive in deporting illegal immigrants, 50 percent of voters say, as 13 percent say the administration has not been aggressive enough and 33 percent say the administration has been acting appropriately.

"When does public opinion become a demand that politicians just can't ignore? Two- thirds of American voters oppose the family separation policy at our borders," said Tim Malloy, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Poll.

"Neither quotes from the Bible nor get-tough talk can soften the images of crying children nor reverse the pain so many Americans feel."

"And if you are a Dreamer, voters say, 'We have your back,'" Malloy added.

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Quote:President Donald Trump’s zero tolerance policy is creating a zombie army of children forcibly injected with medications that make them dizzy, listless, obese and even incapacitated, according to legal filings that show immigrant children in U.S. custody subdued with powerful psychiatric drugs.

Children held at Shiloh Treatment Center, a government contractor south of Houston that houses immigrant minors, described being held down and injected, according to the federal court filings. The lawsuit alleges that children were told they would not be released or see their parents unless they took medication and that they only were receiving vitamins.

Parents and the children themselves told attorneys the drugs rendered them unable to walk, afraid of people and wanting to sleep constantly, according to affidavits filed April 23 in U.S. District Court in California.

One mother said her child fell repeatedly, hitting her head, and ended up in a wheelchair. A child described trying to open a window and being hurled against a door by a Shiloh supervisor, who then choked her until she fainted.

“The supervisor told me I was going to get a medication injection to calm me down,” the girl said. “Two staff grabbed me, and the doctor gave me the injection despite my objection and left me there on the bed.”

Another child recounted being made to take pills in the morning, at noon and night. The child said “the staff told me that some of the pills are vitamins because they think I need to gain weight. The vitamins changed about two times, and each time I feel different.”

Shiloh is among 71 companies that receive funds from the federal government to house and supervise immigrant children deemed unaccompanied minors.

An investigation by Reveal from The Center for Investigative Reporting found that nearly half of the $3.4 billion paid to those companies in the last four years went to homes with serious allegations of mistreating children. In nearly all cases reviewed by Reveal, the federal government continued contracts with the companies after serious allegations were raised.

At Reveal’s request, forensic psychiatrist Mark. J. Mills assessed materials from 420 pages of children’s medical records and statements filed in California federal court this April.

“You don’t have to be a rocket scientist here; it looks like they’re trying to control agitation and aggressive behavior with antipsychotic drugs,” said Mills, who practices in the Washington, D.C., area and was an expert witness for a lawsuit that in 2008 stopped the federal government from forcibly administering antipsychotic drugs to deportees.

“You don’t need to administer these kinds of drugs unless someone is plucking out their eyeball or some such. The facility should not use these drugs to control behavior. That’s not what antipsychotics should be used for. That’s like the old Soviet Union used to do.”

The records were filed in connection with an ongoing class-action status lawsuit alleging poor treatment of  immigrant children in U.S. custody. An attorney representing the children said youth separated from their parents often become depressed, angry, anxious and, sometimes, unruly and that, in turn, encourages prescription of inappropriate medication.

One child was prescribed 10 different shots and pills, including the antipsychotic drugs Latuda, Geodon and Olanzapine, the Parkinson’s medication Benztropine, the seizure medications Clonazepam and Divalproex, the nerve pain medication and antidepressant Duloxetine, and the cognition enhancer Guanfacine.

Dosage recommendations at Shiloh gave orderlies what Mills called an unusually wide berth to determine how much medicine to give the children.

Maribel Bernardez first suspected her son was being drugged at the Shiloh facility when she saw a video sent by his caseworker via WhatsApp.

“He was completely hypnotized and lethargic,” Bernardez told Reveal.

Bernardez, now reunited with her son in New Orleans and seeking asylum from Honduras, provided Reveal with records showing her son was held at the Shiloh facility for six months. He was 9 when he landed at Shiloh in November after being referred for what staff considered psychological issues. Reveal is not publishing his name at his mother’s request.

Medical records show that Bernardez’s son was administered psychotropic drugs at Shiloh. She told Reveal that she repeatedly objected and did not sign any consent form.

The Shiloh Treatment Center has not responded to a request from Reveal for comment about the case. The government Office of Refugee Resettlement has not responded either.

Side effects of the medications make some children feel even more desperate, leading to the prescription of increasingly powerful medications, said Carlos Holguin, an attorney for the Los Angeles-based Center for Human Rights & Constitutional Law. Holguin is asking a judge to require parents’ permission or a court order before children in the country illegally can be medicated.

Shiloh already had a reputation for mistreating children. In December 2014, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Houston, called for Shiloh to be shut down, citing reports from the Houston Chronicle of “physical violence, unreasonable and excessive use of physical restraints, administering emergency medications without notice to governmental authorities, and several deaths of minor children while in custody,” she said in a statement.

But the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services continued sending children and funds to Shiloh – a total of more than $19 million after the congresswoman called for its closure, according to federal payment records.
Shiloh has contracted to house immigrant children since 2013. Last year, the most lucrative yet under its agreement, Shiloh collected $5.6 million.

Children and parents interviewed by the attorneys described being forcibly injected or made to take as many as 18 pills a day. One record reviewed by Mills showed a child taking a battery of shots and pills that included three different types of antipsychotic drugs, which Mills said were improperly prescribed for “agitation” and “aggressive behavior.”

Of the 20 or so children Holguin and his colleagues interviewed, all had been medicated. Parents he interviewed described the results.
“I understand they are requiring (my daughter) to take very powerful medications for anxiety. I have noted that (my daughter) is becoming more nervous, fearful, and she trembles,” one said. “(My daughter) tells me that she has fallen several times and has injured her head and arms, to the point that she ended up in a wheelchair, because the medications were too powerful and she couldn’t walk. She has complained about the medications to the staff, that they make her afraid of people.”

Medical records included in the court exhibits suggest improper use of medications, according to Mills.

Asked how such drugs and dosages would make children feel, Mills said: “They feel like shit. They feel like they have given up their own control. The long-term complications are weight gain and developing adult onset diabetes. These drugs are not benign.”

[i]Matt Smith can be reached at msmith@revealnews.org and Aura Bogado can be reached at abogado@revealnews.org. Follow them on Twitter: @SFMattSmith and @aurabogado.[/i]

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)LRagnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

...

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

(06-22-2018, 08:16 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)LRagnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

...

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

 
While I agree that there are limits to asylum,  we need to be careful about what is and isn't legitimate. If you are a woman living in hyper macho-land, institutional indifference to your welfare is a legitimate reason to flee. If the government sides with your oppressor, simply because you lack a penis, that government becomes the problem too.

(06-22-2018, 12:46 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: OK, but "macho-land" is pretty extensive in the world.  A lot of the Islamic world is that way with some exceptions like the Kurd tribe. Latin America is/was , [ask an expert] may be another location. In any event, macho-land seems to be a really big place on earth. So, to use an analogy, and to extend it to immigration in general try this:
You're cooking a pot of soup.  A teaspoon of salt is OK, while dumping the whole can makes a horrible tasting and most likely toxic soup. Immigration is like salt, a little is fine and beneficial, while dumping a whole shit pot is a very bad thing. The "To me, the no border brigade are a bunch of clueless idealists. They ignore human nature, history, and even climate change. Humans seem to be as dumb as petri dish bacteria when it comes to breeding. Climate change + breeding will result in billions of deaths. Earth is finite and infinite things crash. The same rule for deer applies to humans. I just don't want to consume a lethal dose of sodium.

(06-23-2018, 08:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-22-2018, 12:46 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: OK, but "macho-land" is pretty extensive in the world.  A lot of the Islamic world is that way with some exceptions like the Kurd tribe. Latin America is/was , [ask an expert] may be another location. In any event, macho-land seems to be a really big place on earth. So, to use an analogy, and to extend it to immigration in general try this:
You're cooking a pot of soup.  A teaspoon of salt is OK, while dumping the whole can makes a horrible tasting and most likely toxic soup. Immigration is like salt, a little is fine and beneficial, while dumping a whole shit pot is a very bad thing. The "To me, the no border brigade are a bunch of clueless idealists. They ignore human nature, history, and even climate change. Humans seem to be as dumb as petri dish bacteria when it comes to breeding. Climate change + breeding will result in billions of deaths. Earth is finite and infinite things crash. The same rule for deer applies to humans. I just don't want to consume a lethal dose of sodium.

This is exactly the problem.  We are rapidly devolving into two worlds: one that is orderly and rule based and one that's disorderly and chaotic.  The latter appears to be growing, so the ordered world wants to stop it at its borders.  I don't think that works, frankly.

We've fought major wars for less.  Let's not this time, okay?

At its core, modernity is the cause.  How do you fight that?  The world is changing, but very few are benefitting.  That's a big part of the problem.  The powerful couldn't care less as long as they get theirs and a big chunk of yours to boot. Either that changes or the chaos continues to spread.

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

1.  The pull problem needs has an easy solution.  All employers need to use E-verify.  If anyone is busted, throw the book at them.  Prosecute them on tax charges for non payment of employment taxes along with hiring aliens. If the fines bankrupt them, all the better. Examples make for awesome deterrents.

2. The push problem.  The US needs to stop meddling in Latin America's internal affairs. Stop supporting civil wars to advance corporate America's agendas.

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

4. If someone is just looking for "a better life, " too bad. We have legions of homeless already, fix that first as well.
For example, San Francisco, that paragon of kindness won't build homeless shelters, because NIMBY. I despise hypocrisy.  Just look at the huge mess over there.  

(06-24-2018, 08:56 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

1.  The pull problem needs has an easy solution.  All employers need to use E-verify.  If anyone is busted, throw the book at them.  Prosecute them on tax charges for non payment of employment taxes along with hiring aliens. If the fines bankrupt them, all the better. Examples make for awesome deterrents.

2. The push problem.  The US needs to stop meddling in Latin America's internal affairs. Stop supporting civil wars to advance corporate America's agendas.

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

4. If someone is just looking for "a better life, " too bad. We have legions of homeless already, fix that first as well.
For example, San Francisco, that paragon of kindness won't build homeless shelters, because NIMBY. I despise hypocrisy.  Just look at the huge mess over there.  

Thanks for the discussion on this important topic.

I agree with David's observations and concerns. Illegal immigrants are not felons; their punishment should fit the crime. Prisons for babies is not in accord with values and laws. Allowing immigration does not mean we allow criminals to stay in our country, or drugs to be smuggled. If illegal immigrants commit serious crimes, they can and should be deported. There should be standards set for this; a DUI committed 20 years ago is not a sufficient reason to deport someone off the street and take them away from their families. And Trump and his followers assume that all illegal immigrants must be criminals, rapists and drug dealers. This is not true; immigrants are actually less liable to commit crimes than natives.

1. Illegal immigration exists partly because employers need workers, and such workers are not available from the native population. Certainly laws requiring employers to pay their employment taxes and pay living wages to employees must be enforced. Deporting people just because they crossed the border may not be a workable policy. At least, they can't all be deported, so such a policy is unfair. And it ignores the right of people to live where they want to live. But if employers must all pay living wages to all workers, legal or not, this may decrease the need businesses perceive to hire illegal aliens, because that is caused by their unfair desire to pay cheap and unfair wages.

2. This is a big and important point. What the US did in Central America 20-30 years ago had a big impact on the condition of countries today. The US supported in many cases wealthy landowning oligarchies who employed death squads to maintain their power, because these oligarchs were not communist rebels and were beneficial to US commercial interests. I would say we need to stop supporting these oligarchs. We can't impose what we want on them. But we can pressure them through our influence and trade policies to respect human rights and hold honest elections, not coups and death squads. Our own drug problems and drug wars also contribute to conditions in these countries.

3. That seems right. And, asylum seekers are not criminals. They have a right to seek it, and should not be detained while they seek it.

4. I dunno. Having poverty imposed on you, is as much a tyranny as being imprisoned for your beliefs or your activism or your family member's activism. It is natural for people to want to move to another place if life is intolerable where you are. If it's reasonably good, then people will stay home. Giving aid to poor countries is a responsibility of rich ones, if we are to have a functioning world without as much war, terrorism and mass migrations. The wealthy also primarily need to provide aid to people suffering at home. NIMBY is not a good policy. But our back yard is also the yards beyond our national borders. We cannot separate ourselves from the chaos abroad. People's suffering abroad is often a condition imposed by outside powers, including but not limited to those imposed by the USA. Our policies toward other nations need to be enlightened by the realization that what's good for others is what's good for us. The guy who shared that philosophy and physics video with us, made that point as its ultimate conclusion. It is a valid one.

(08-04-2018, 08:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Where did the concept of "illegal immigration" even come from?

If you look at who has been kept out of the U.S. over the decades, being "illegal" has a lot to do with race.

(08-05-2018, 01:28 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(08-04-2018, 08:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Where did the concept of "illegal immigration" even come from?

If you look at who has been kept out of the U.S. over the decades, being "illegal" has a lot to do with race.

Illegal immigration comes from the law that states that the US has a right to allow a certain number of folks to come here. Border control is a fundamental function of any nation state. The no borders/let everyone in people are fools of the first order. These people are also the useful idiots of neoliberalism. Let's use actual logic here. The US land can only support so many people. Right now there are already too many people. The news that the birth rate has already fallen below replacement is good news, not bad news.  I know rags like Reuters think its bad news and to neoliberals it is bad news because a falling population means fewer people that can be exploited. Fewer workers means higher salaries. Here are some more awesome things we can have: More room for wildlife, more fresh water, less green house gases, lower housing prices, more food per capita, less traffic, and less pollution. Always remember and never forget, population overshoot is the ultimate ponzi scheme. In any event, a voluntary reduction in population is far better than what mother nature will do if we do not stop this breeding shit. Climate change is already locked and loaded to crash the food supply since the US bread basket is going to bake, along with Australia's and Brazil's. So folks are going to starve in nations that insist on breeding or importing more people. So yeah, we need the wall in places, drones, ICE, mandatory Everify + high fines for cheating companies, and Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is where Trump is messing up. I'd also cut off all support for more than 2 kids. If you want to breed, you pay. Fund Planned Parenhood for Latin America if Latin America wants their service, but let Latin America know there's no more room in the US inn. Of course the Deep State needs to get the hell out of Latin America as well. Also, end this asinine war on drugs since that thing is messing things up here in the US and Latin America. Finally, terminate all free trade deals and nuke neoliberalism's hold on Latin America. In short, treat Latin America as adults and not children and let them decide their own future. As for the US, the Deep State and neoliberal empire shit needs to stop. Mother nature will consign us to a new dark age if we don't. Empires fall from hubris and overstretch.  This is what we're doing now. Mother nature will have her way, whether we like it or not. She's calling now, the world's literally burning up. Fires are raging worldwide and Europe is baking.

(08-04-2018, 08:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:



Where did the concept of "illegal immigration" even come from?

If you look at who has been kept out of the U.S. over the decades, being "illegal" has a lot to do with race.