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+---- Thread: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory (/thread-401.html)
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Galen - 06-10-2017
(06-08-2017, 06:28 AM)Odin Wrote: I remember during the primaries complaints that Sanders supporters had been purged from the NY Democratic Party registration list and thus unable to vote in the primary and there was finger pointing about DNC dirty tricks. This BS makes me wonder if that was actually Russian dirty tricks.
It seems that one of your favorite sources agrees with you. The Wikileaks e-mails showed this along time ago even the New York Times, not the most reliable source, admits this.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 06-11-2017
(06-10-2017, 06:41 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-08-2017, 06:28 AM)Odin Wrote: I remember during the primaries complaints that Sanders supporters had been purged from the NY Democratic Party registration list and thus unable to vote in the primary and there was finger pointing about DNC dirty tricks. This BS makes me wonder if that was actually Russian dirty tricks.
It seems that one of your favorite sources agrees with you. The Wikileaks e-mails showed this along time ago even the New York Times, not the most reliable source, admits this.
Yeah, except for all the techical stuff. I doubt the DNC has access to hackers with the inside knowledge of Russian hacks ... unless you're arguing that the DNC was in cahoots with the Russians, not Trump. Of course, that's in Mueller's .hands now, so wait 18 months or so and find out.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 06-11-2017
(06-10-2017, 06:41 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-08-2017, 06:28 AM)Odin Wrote: I remember during the primaries complaints that Sanders supporters had been purged from the NY Democratic Party registration list and thus unable to vote in the primary and there was finger pointing about DNC dirty tricks. This BS makes me wonder if that was actually Russian dirty tricks.
It seems that one of your favorite sources agrees with you. The Wikileaks e-mails showed this along time ago even the New York Times, not the most reliable source, admits this.
Maybe there's more to it this time. Who knows?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Galen - 06-13-2017
(06-11-2017, 05:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:(06-10-2017, 06:41 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-08-2017, 06:28 AM)Odin Wrote: I remember during the primaries complaints that Sanders supporters had been purged from the NY Democratic Party registration list and thus unable to vote in the primary and there was finger pointing about DNC dirty tricks. This BS makes me wonder if that was actually Russian dirty tricks.
It seems that one of your favorite sources agrees with you. The Wikileaks e-mails showed this along time ago even the New York Times, not the most reliable source, admits this.
Yeah, except for all the techical stuff. I doubt the DNC has access to hackers with the inside knowledge of Russian hacks ... unless you're arguing that the DNC was in cahoots with the Russians, not Trump. Of course, that's in Mueller's .hands now, so wait 18 months or so and find out.
It is more likely that a Bernie supporter in the DNC pulled the information and had it released. While Putin did express a preference for Trump that doesn't prove that it was the Russians. As the recently release CIA hacking tools demonstrate, it is possible to make a hacking effort look like it came from anywhere.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 06-13-2017
Maybe they did. They did not need 39 states, but overkill is part of the old Soviet modus operandi in shaping elections as the Soviet Union wanted. Putin knows this well.
Quote:Russia’s cyberattack on the U.S. electoral system before Donald Trump’s election was far more widespread than has been publicly revealed, including incursions into voter databases and software systems in almost twice as many states as previously reported.
In Illinois, investigators found evidence that cyber intruders tried to delete or alter voter data. The hackers accessed software designed to be used by poll workers on Election Day, and in at least one state accessed a campaign finance database. Details of the wave of attacks, in the summer and fall of 2016, were provided by three people with direct knowledge of the U.S. investigation into the matter. In all, the Russian hackers hit systems in a total of 39 states, one of them said.
...............
Illinois, which was among the states that gave the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security almost full access to investigate its systems, provides a window into the hackers’ successes and failures.
In early July 2016, a contractor who works two or three days a week at the state board of elections detected unauthorized data leaving the network, according to Ken Menzel, general counsel for the Illinois board of elections. The hackers had gained access to the state’s voter database, which contained information such as names, dates of birth, genders, driver’s licenses and partial Social Security numbers on 15 million people, half of whom were active voters. As many as 90,000 records were ultimately compromised.
But even if the entire database had been deleted, it might not have affected the election, according to Menzel. Counties upload records to the state, not the other way around, and no data moves from the database back to the counties, which run the elections. The hackers had no way of knowing that when they attacked the state database, Menzel said.
The state does, however, process online voter registration applications that are sent to the counties for approval, Menzel said. When voters are added to the county rolls, that information is then sent back to the state and added to the central database. This process, which is common across states, does present an opportunity for attackers to manipulate records at their inception.
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-06-13/russian-breach-of-39-states-threatens-future-u-s-elections
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 06-13-2017
Obama did not want to meddle in the election. 39 states? This is new, and it suggests how pervasive the plot was.
As successor of the GPU and the KGB the FSB knows how to manipulate an election as happened in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary.
Security over American elections is shabby. Maybe we have the arrogance to believe that our military prowess protects our shores and airspace... but it does not have the means of protecting our elections. In view of the computerized handling of electoral data from voter registration to the count itself. We may not need hand counting of ballots; a paper ballot counted with an optical scanner is safe so long as the counting is off line. Registration on line is potentially trouble. The Russians may have done what a group like the Birch Society or a Klan clique might wish.
This mess is not over. What the Russians may have done the Chinese might do the next time. If the Russians can be shown to have tampered with with an election to get a dupe to serve diplomatic ends, then the Chinese can do so for economic purposes. They might try to rig the election to ensure that Democrats elect a champion of free trade. Let's not forget the current leader of the Free World now that the USA has a President whose idea of freedom is that his class can do whatever it wants to everyone else. If that sounds like a Marxist explanation of the behavior of our President -- the problem is that the explanation fits. India has some real experts at manipulating computers from thousands of miles away.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 06-14-2017
(06-13-2017, 02:21 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-11-2017, 05:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yeah, except for all the techical stuff. I doubt the DNC has access to hackers with the inside knowledge of Russian hacks ... unless you're arguing that the DNC was in cahoots with the Russians, not Trump. Of course, that's in Mueller's .hands now, so wait 18 months or so and find out.
It is more likely that a Bernie supporter in the DNC pulled the information and had it released. While Putin did express a preference for Trump that doesn't prove that it was the Russians. As the recently release CIA hacking tools demonstrate, it is possible to make a hacking effort look like it came from anywhere.
Sophisticated hacking tools leave unique traces that an organization like the NSA can find and decypher. I doubt some flunky insider could pull that off.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 06-14-2017
(06-13-2017, 09:57 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Imagine how a Ronald Reagan, a JFK ... or ... an FDR ... would have reacted to this type of non conventional attack. Instead, neither Trump nor Obama did squat.
The November Criminals.
The best response would be totally hidden and waiting to act when the time is right, so we have no way to evaluate this. Remember Stuxnet.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Galen - 06-15-2017
(06-14-2017, 01:54 PM)David Horn Wrote:(06-13-2017, 02:21 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-11-2017, 05:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yeah, except for all the techical stuff. I doubt the DNC has access to hackers with the inside knowledge of Russian hacks ... unless you're arguing that the DNC was in cahoots with the Russians, not Trump. Of course, that's in Mueller's .hands now, so wait 18 months or so and find out.
It is more likely that a Bernie supporter in the DNC pulled the information and had it released. While Putin did express a preference for Trump that doesn't prove that it was the Russians. As the recently release CIA hacking tools demonstrate, it is possible to make a hacking effort look like it came from anywhere.
Sophisticated hacking tools leave unique traces that an organization like the NSA can find and decypher. I doubt some flunky insider could pull that off.
Actually I would expect an insider to have much better odds since once you have access to the actual hardware the job gets much easier. For the average desktop I would boot up something like Knoppix and mount the drive with using the noatime and ro options and then go fishing. Store what I wanted on the encrypted USB stick that I booted Knoppix with and be done with it. Unless someone was watching they would never know what happened. The people who own the machine would never know so there is no reason to think the NSA would since nothing goes over the net and the filesystem never actually changes.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Eric the Green - 06-17-2017
British intelligence spotted Trump campaign ties to Russia.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 06-18-2017
Rachel Maddow would be wise to keep her passport in hand, just as nutty defenders of the Second Amendment sleep with their guns.
Old stuff now -- from late March.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 06-18-2017
(06-15-2017, 02:25 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-14-2017, 01:54 PM)David Horn Wrote: Sophisticated hacking tools leave unique traces that an organization like the NSA can find and decypher. I doubt some flunky insider could pull that off.
Actually I would expect an insider to have much better odds since once you have access to the actual hardware the job gets much easier. For the average desktop I would boot up something like Knoppix and mount the drive with using the noatime and ro options and then go fishing. Store what I wanted on the encrypted USB stick that I booted Knoppix with and be done with it. Unless someone was watching they would never know what happened. The people who own the machine would never know so there is no reason to think the NSA would since nothing goes over the net and the filesystem never actually changes.
The FBI does extensive forensic analysis of computers, and they had this one in hand. The NSA does as well, though they were not involved with the DNC box(es). I wouldn't count on getting in and out unnoticed ... not in the long run.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Galen - 06-19-2017
(06-18-2017, 10:56 AM)David Horn Wrote:(06-15-2017, 02:25 AM)Galen Wrote: Actually I would expect an insider to have much better odds since once you have access to the actual hardware the job gets much easier. For the average desktop I would boot up something like Knoppix and mount the drive with using the noatime and ro options and then go fishing. Store what I wanted on the encrypted USB stick that I booted Knoppix with and be done with it. Unless someone was watching they would never know what happened. The people who own the machine would never know so there is no reason to think the NSA would since nothing goes over the net and the filesystem never actually changes.
The FBI does extensive forensic analysis of computers, and they had this one in hand. The NSA does as well, though they were not involved with the DNC box(es). I wouldn't count on getting in and out unnoticed ... not in the long run.
First, I would point out that the FBI never had the computers. Second, if you took the time to get familiar with Knoppix then you would know that mounting a disk read-only and noatime mean the filesystem of interest will not be changed so there would be no evidence. This is why you use a USB based operating system such a Knoppix.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 06-19-2017
Beyond any question, if our electoral system is hacked, then to the extent that the system is hacked and so distorts the vote, then the system is undemocratic. America eventually becomes a client state, if not an outright colony, of the hackers.
Galen:
Beyond any question, feudalism is no better than the feudal lords. Military regimes are no better than the ruling generals. Despotism is no better than the despots. Fascism is no better than the fascists. Marxism is no better than the Marxists.
...and capitalism can be no better than the capitalists. When Donald Trump is the exemplar of capitalism, then capitalism as it then exists is devoid of ethical value.
Conservatives would have been perfectly happy had their conservative had the ethical values and overall competence of president Obama. Indeed they might have had fewer problems in achieving their profits-first ideology. Donald Trump cannot convince us of his mirror-image Marxism that differs from the stereotypical Marxist critique of capitalism -- that capitalism is a repressive, exploitative, hierarchical order that makes even the barest needs of working people into a choice of plutocrats to permit or deny even if such a denial means death from starvation; what differs in this mirror image of Marxism is that to the ultra-capitalist purist is that the rottenness that anyone else would recognize is a great virtue instead of a monstrous evil.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Galen - 06-19-2017
(06-19-2017, 03:45 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Beyond any question, if our electoral system is hacked, then to the extent that the system is hacked and so distorts the vote, then the system is undemocratic. America eventually becomes a client state, if not an outright colony, of the hackers.
The US does that quite frequently but I guess that is fine because it was the feds that did it. This kind of double standard I find quite annoying.
I don't really think that Russia did it and nobody has shown any evidence that they did. The declassified reports are short on details and that assumes that I trust the feds more than I do Russia's government. You might do well to consider what the cartoonist has to say about the subject.
Personally I find it far more believable that the DNC is importing voters since it is known that Hillary got 800,000 votes from illegals.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Odin - 06-19-2017
LOL, the Moonie Times?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 06-19-2017
(06-19-2017, 05:11 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-19-2017, 03:45 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Beyond any question, if our electoral system is hacked, then to the extent that the system is hacked and so distorts the vote, then the system is undemocratic. America eventually becomes a client state, if not an outright colony, of the hackers.
The US does that quite frequently but I guess that is fine because it was the feds that did it. This kind of double standard I find quite annoying.
The Soviet Union did it frequently as a means of entrenching its clients in states that it transformed into puppets. Vladimir Putin knows how to do it. In his case, "KGB" is not the initials for "Kenneth Gary Brown". It's his former employer.
Quote:I don't really think that Russia did it and nobody has shown any evidence that they did. The declassified reports are short on details and that assumes that I trust the feds more than I do Russia's government. You might do well to consider what the cartoonist has to say about the subject.
I don't really think
Your (Freudian) slip is showing!
Can you at the least accept that even the perception of tampering in the election tears at the social fabric? If we can't trust our elections, what can we believe? Besides, if the Russians can hack our election, then so can someone else. Next time it could be the Chinese who might support someone likely to go along with Chinese foreign policy or economic interests... yes, no constraints on imports from China, acquiescence in Chinese political hegemony in transforming countries like Thailand and the Philippines into client states, aid in suppressing dissent against the PRC within America.
You will not like that result if the Chinese find a liberal Democrat and solid Democratic majorities in both Houses of Congress who are patsies of the People's Republic of China.
Quote:Personally I find it far more believable that the DNC is importing voters since it is known that Hillary got 800,000 votes from illegals.
Well, they didn't import 'enough' illegal-alien voters, did they? Or did all the illegal aliens who voted vote in California, where it made little difference?
Face it: the USA is no longer a democracy. Our elections may simply be a relic of an old time in which they meant something other than the ratification of the rats who rule us. Lobbyists are the real power in the legislative branch in Congress and in most state legislatures. The dominant political philosophy in America is that no human suffering is in excess so long as it serves the economic interests of a Master Class devoid of any ethical values other than ostentatious self-indulgence. That economic elite, comprising plutocrats, executives, and sold-out intellectuals, offers the common man nothing but the opportunity to toil to the least possible in This World for vague promises of Pie in the Sky When You Die.
Only a sick political order can give us a Donald Trump as Fueh.. excuse me, President.
We might as well replace "In God We Trust" with "In Mammon We Trust".
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Galen - 06-20-2017
(06-19-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can you at the least accept that even the perception of tampering in the election tears at the social fabric? If we can't trust our elections, what can we believe? Besides, if the Russians can hack our election, then so can someone else. Next time it could be the Chinese who might support someone likely to go along with Chinese foreign policy or economic interests... yes, no constraints on imports from China, acquiescence in Chinese political hegemony in transforming countries like Thailand and the Philippines into client states, aid in suppressing dissent against the PRC within America.
I would prefer to see some real evidence that Russia did in fact do anything at all. The reports we get from the government are just allegations with no supporting evidence. Then there is the small matter of Clinton insiders who say that Podesta and Mook cooked up the blame Russia notion. Which given the timing of when the Russia excuse started seems likely. This also fits in with Hillary's need to blame anyone but herself about who lost the election and gives the Dims a useful lever for obstructing Trump.
When I see so many people trying to create a panic response in the population which is what, the Dims in particular, have been doing then I get suspicious because it almost always means that I am being pushed in direction that serves someone else and not me. Trust was being lost in our elections along with the government long before this nonsense.
Looking at the economic and political situation from Russia's point of view then I would conclude that the US empire is going down and Russia need not do anything to hasten this process. Also looking at this from a Russian point of view I would be preparing for a dying empire to go insane and attack at some point when the various proxy wars the US has instigated fail to achieve the desired result. I just hope the US is not repeating 1914 because it is likely the world will not survive.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - pbrower2a - 06-20-2017
(06-20-2017, 02:41 AM)Galen Wrote:(06-19-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can you at the least accept that even the perception of tampering in the election tears at the social fabric? If we can't trust our elections, what can we believe? Besides, if the Russians can hack our election, then so can someone else. Next time it could be the Chinese who might support someone likely to go along with Chinese foreign policy or economic interests... yes, no constraints on imports from China, acquiescence in Chinese political hegemony in transforming countries like Thailand and the Philippines into client states, aid in suppressing dissent against the PRC within America.
I would prefer to see some real evidence that Russia did in fact do anything at all. The reports we get from the government are just allegations with no supporting evidence. Then there is the small matter of Clinton insiders who say that Podesta and Mook cooked up the blame Russia notion. Which given the timing of when the Russia excuse started seems likely. This also fits in with Hillary's need to blame anyone but herself about who lost the election and gives the Dims a useful lever for obstructing Trump.
The evidence so far is circumstantial -- like meetings and the money trail. What do you expect people to do? Travel to a courthouse, confess, and ask to be arrested? There was some incredibly-strange electoral behavior.
As is well understood, circumstantial evidence has been good in the past -- for a seat in the electric chair, at least for murder.
Quote:When I see so many people trying to create a panic response in the population which is what, the Dims in particular, have been doing then I get suspicious because it almost always means that I am being pushed in direction that serves someone else and not me. Trust was being lost in our elections along with the government long before this nonsense.
I certainly have no trust in a government consisting of economic elitists and their henchmen, run by the economic elitists to the detriment of everyone else, and for the corrupt gain and indulgence of those economic elitists. We live in a dictionary definition of a plutocracy today, one in which life means nothing unless one is well-connected to those economic elitists and when the secret of success is being born into the Right Family, or that such will be so very soon.
So what if we have some wonderful gadgets to entertain us and plenty of choices of mind-numbing, soul-rotting drivel to allow us to feel good while we are ruined? If we exist solely to suffer for people like Donald Trump who make incredible amounts of money off what are basically economic rents that people pay for the dubious privilege of living in their universe, then maybe our universe does not need them.
As I say, we have a legislature run by corporate lobbyists, a method of tyranny that divvies up resources to much the same purposes as the Stato Corporativo of Benito Mussolini. We have a fascist economy with a few relics of free enterprise and a welfare state., and people like Donald Trump, Pat Toomey, and Scott Walker seem intent on destroying those relics. That's before I discuss the rot that is Dixie, where the heritage of the plantation seems to be returning as a cultural justification for economic exploitation as close to slavery as is possible.
Oh, sure, we don't have book-burning yet; pariahs aren't already being compelled to wear badges that incite people to humiliate them; we don't have our kids being goaded to join politicized youth groups yet; we are not expected so far to raise our right arms in simulated erections while shouting "Leader! Leader! Leader!" yet. This is more like Italy in 1923 than like Italy in 1938, except that we Americans don't listen to as much opera.
Fascism has to fit the culture, or in the case of America multiple cultures. Christian Protestant fundamentalism? The plantation? Manifest destiny? Maybe we glorify our role in World War II for all the wrong reasons, which will be far easier because the GIs who could tell us first hand what they were fighting for are no longer abundant. The GIs weren't fighting for the sort of plutocracy that we now have.
Think of this: America now has nearly zero net immigration from Europe. Your ideology, if true, would cause one to believe that the social-democratic nightmare of high taxes and generous services would create millions of refugees from Western Europe. But that just is not happening. Would you rather get education through graduate school (if your grades be good enough) and pay high taxes for the opportunity or would you rather be in hock to a payday lender? Would you rather have something like Medicare at birth or would you rather vegetate in front of an idiot screen watching cheap cable TV?
Donald Trump and his coterie are taking away what used to be special about America -- what made it desirable. What are we getting in return: promises of 'pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die' in the knowledge that the elites have repasts that include lobster, caviar, and expensive wine? The people pushing the promise of 'pie in the sky when you die' seem not accepting miserable lives in This World for glory in the Next.
You may call yourself a libertarian, but I know your type all too well. You believe in 'freedom for me but hardship for thee', and when the question comes up again when the economy becomes more productive you have the same answer.
Quote:Looking at the economic and political situation from Russia's point of view then I would conclude that the US empire is going down and Russia need not do anything to hasten this process. Also looking at this from a Russian point of view I would be preparing for a dying empire to go insane and attack at some point when the various proxy wars the US has instigated fail to achieve the desired result. I just hope the US is not repeating 1914 because it is likely the world will not survive.
America has too many resources to be a dying empire. The elites know enough to hand out a few goodies when times get a little rough, and to keep the facade of democracy intact even if democracy is gutted. The Roman Empire, a rotten entity from its inception, took more than half a millennium to die. Maybe Trump is an aberration instead of a portent. But I no longer trust the economic and political elites of the Union of Christian and Corporate States. Only a fool does now when those elites are as depraved as they are now.
America was a better place when people earned enough money so that they could save for a car repair or for consumer goodies -- and not when they had to turn to payday lenders.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Odin - 06-20-2017
Galen is a brainwashed tool, Brower. No amount of evidence is going to convince him. His brain has been turned to mush by InfoWars-grade BS.