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+---- Thread: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy (/thread-20010.html)
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RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - David Horn - 04-28-2022
(04-28-2022, 02:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: From what I have heard, young people today did not have civics classes at all. They need to create their own knowledge of how our government works, and most are too lazy to do that. I don't know just when civics education was abolished though, or how gradually.
I was an adult when this happened, and my ex and I moved her daughter to a private school even though we couldn't afford it at the time. We were exceptions. Most parents were OK with this, thinking that school was intended to produce successful workers, not citizens. So, drop this into the late '70s or a little later (depending on where you lived, of course). It was a solid 3T precursor and accomplished exactly what the promoters intended.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - pbrower2a - 04-28-2022
As important is knowing how campaign funds and media manipulation (that's right, propaganda, whether private or public in origin) work. If someone gets aid from dark-money groups that demonize the opposition then one must expect that the sources of the dark money will pull the strings on someone who poses as a plain-folks figure. That means the dark money will prevail in the pol that it supports whether one thinks its agenda ludicrous or even inhuman if its chosen pol wins. So if a secretive group has a menacing campaign and says "vote for Senator Jones" then you can expect Senator Jones to be its stooge.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - beechnut79 - 04-30-2022
(04-26-2022, 02:40 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(04-26-2022, 12:03 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-26-2022, 12:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:(04-25-2022, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let me reach out and touch a potential leader or two. First, Cory Booker. He has charisma to burn, experience where it counts, and a lot of good ideas to boot. Another player, Amy Klobuchar. She's a bit rougher around the edges than Booker, but she also has solid experience and a never-quit attitude. Then there's the improbable but solid governor of Kentucky, Andy Beshear.
We don't have to accept less, and these are only three of many excellent choices.
None of these three has any chance of ever being elected president of the USA.
There's no reason to believe that Biden is not a better bet in any sense that these three.
Remember I said no 2020 candidate has any chance besides Biden. Booker dropped out before the primaries, and Klobuchar I believe was a distant 5th place.
Note also that none of these three has any "go for the gold" policy plans that are any more bold or progressive than Biden's.
I don't see Biden running again, neither of us thinks Harris is viable, and the two street fighters are both in their 70s. Jumping past the flotsam in their 50s and 60s, and the next crop with the guts to go toe-to-toe with the dystopian Republicans are all too young. So I'll still pick Cory Booker or, perhaps, Pete Buttigieg. Nether is a true street fighter, but both connect with people at the core level, and they have backgrounds that are hard to fault.
Well, best wishes with your recommendation. I forecast in 2020 that none of the 2020 Democratic candidates had any chance against Biden, or Trump, except maybe Bernie Sanders (score 13-7). The latter was the last one standing; all the others melted away in a dismal pile. None of them will ever win. The other ones who could have won did not run. That's too bad, but that's what we got. We can't go back and wish they had run. It's a tragedy, perhaps, but we have to make do with Mr. Biden. Without him, we have no hope.
Cory Booker, score 8-10, has a Saturn Return due in 2028, which could be an additional barrier. His approach and style is too restless and unhinged.
Pete Buttigieg, charming as he is, has a score of 6-13. In the end, he doesn't have the strength of presence to be seen as presidential.
These two candidates just don't have the skill to connect.
Biden (score 16-6) has already said he will run again, and I believe him. His health and speaking style are, if anything, improving this year. I don't know though, if he will win. I think Trump (score 9-4) may be too discredited to beat him, when it comes down to it, but I could be wrong. Tim Scott (score 17-7) might have a shot, or Tom Cotton (score 17-9, uncertain), or even Marco Rubio (score 13-7), but I can't predict any of these or any other Republicans as defeating Biden. I may not be able to make a clear prediction, but I will present the data and the conditions when the time comes. Just how far Republicans succeed in fixing the election system may determine whether Trump or his successor wins or not. An election scoring system means little in an authoritarian state. I would probably be most afraid of Tim Scott.
Although Nikki Haley (score 8-12) versus Cory Booker might be an interesting scenario. A very unlikely one indeed, though.
Knocking Biden is not an accurate appraisal. Don't underestimate him, nor Trump for that matter.
https://philosopherswheel.com/presidentialelections.html#WhoScoredWhat
In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - pbrower2a - 04-30-2022
(04-28-2022, 05:25 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-28-2022, 02:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: From what I have heard, young people today did not have civics classes at all. They need to create their own knowledge of how our government works, and most are too lazy to do that. I don't know just when civics education was abolished though, or how gradually.
I was an adult when this happened, and my ex and I moved her daughter to a private school even though we couldn't afford it at the time. We were exceptions. Most parents were OK with this, thinking that school was intended to produce successful workers, not citizens. So, drop this into the late '70s or a little later (depending on where you lived, of course). It was a solid 3T precursor and accomplished exactly what the promoters intended.
This tendency created much of the problem. Yes, such people as bond traders and corporate attorneys do well, but how many of them do we need? We need milk, which means dairy workers. We need oil changes if our cars are to last 150K miles and not 40K miles. We need factory workers to make the stuff that we need. We need orderlies in hospitals if the staph infections are not to overpower the efforts of the physicians on the staff.
I'm not going to romanticize any heroic working class, as such is not my ideology, but it is obvious that people who do the real work can be good citizens and that people who draw the high salaries, earn the professional fees, and churn income as huge commissions if those well-paid people have no civic virtues. It may be that our system is more effective in enforcing good behavior from the proletariat than from the heirs and the executive elites. Maybe the question of social organization is not so much how people do their jobs as it is who gets away with what.
Let's start with the obvious. Neither profit nor economic gain can never be the sole purpose of human existence. Heroin is profitable. Insider trading is profitable. Slave-trading was profitable. Swindling is profitable. Outright theft is close to pure profit. This said, any social order in which crime syndicates have a large share in determining what is possible is far poorer than it needs be. Cronyism and sclerotic bureaucracies will strangle an economy. In case you wonder what happened to Sears, A&P, and K-Mart, which once dominated their niches: they became excessively bureaucratic while still marginally profitable while their competitors were not so bureaucratic. Simply merging the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central Railroad to form Penn Central was not good enough to save them. You can no longer " trust your car to the man who wears the star"... because the bureaucracy at Texaco misbehaved badly. Corporate bureaucrats had the golden handcuffs that ensured that they did not become competitors or that smart college grads didn't start reading Karl Marx because they were unemployed and sought to blame the system.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - David Horn - 05-01-2022
(04-30-2022, 03:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
That's good! DeSantis, unlike his "mentor", has the wherewithal to actually do serious harm. Here's the question: is that his intent? I tend to see him as an autocrat in performance clothing. Is that a benefit to him personally or not? It's hard to see it helping him do anything but play his base like a fiddle or fail miserably trying to do something substantive.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - beechnut79 - 05-01-2022
(05-01-2022, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-30-2022, 03:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
That's good! DeSantis, unlike his "mentor", has the wherewithal to actually do serious harm. Here's the question: is that his intent? I tend to see him as an autocrat in performance clothing. Is that a benefit to him personally or not? It's hard to see it helping him do anything but play his base like a fiddle or fail miserably trying to do something substantive.
Are you hinting at possibly what dome would call a paper tiger, whose bark is much worse than his bite might be?
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - pbrower2a - 05-01-2022
(05-01-2022, 05:02 PM)beechnut79 Wrote:(05-01-2022, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-30-2022, 03:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
That's good! DeSantis, unlike his "mentor", has the wherewithal to actually do serious harm. Here's the question: is that his intent? I tend to see him as an autocrat in performance clothing. Is that a benefit to him personally or not? It's hard to see it helping him do anything but play his base like a fiddle or fail miserably trying to do something substantive.
Are you hinting at possibly what some would call a paper tiger, whose bark is much worse than his bite might be?
Paper tiger whose bark is worse than his bite? That leads to the sort of warning that one sees in high-school English classes about the mixed metaphor. OK, dogs are close relatives of tigers and have a few things in common... power, speed, agility, strength, cunning, voracity, sharp claws and teeth... and at their worst, dogs really are similar to bears and Big Cats. The bark can be disconcerting and disorienting.
Last October some burglar broke into a house infested with a pair of pit-bulls at night, which is almost as dangerous as entering a carnivore enclosure at a zoo. The 22-year-old burglar did get out of the house, only to die of wounds. I nominated that act of extreme stupidity for a Darwin Award. I'm guessing that the
Maybe that's not so much a mixed metaphor as it looks. Dogs are not paper tigers.
..................................
That said, I understand that Ron DeSantis has tried to cover up the death toll from COVID-19 in his state, which is disgraceful and dangerous. Remember that although he has a voter base he can't win with that alone. He gets reliable support from corporate interests that he well serves.
We have seen four years of the most autocratic (I use the word despotic) President in American history.
Democrats may be learning how to play hard with Republicans at the last moment in which they can get away with it. Disgraceful behavior should ruin political careers no later than the next election. I can think of some Republican pols who have bungled the response to COVID-19 or shown undue deference to you-know-who after the Capitol Putsch.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - Eric the Green - 05-01-2022
(05-01-2022, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-30-2022, 03:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
That's good! DeSantis, unlike his "mentor", has the wherewithal to actually do serious harm. Here's the question: is that his intent? I tend to see him as an autocrat in performance clothing. Is that a benefit to him personally or not? It's hard to see it helping him do anything but play his base like a fiddle or fail miserably trying to do something substantive.
DeSatan's score is only 12-10. He may be able to get away with a lot in Florida, but he won't be elected president unless the Democrats nominate Harris, Booker, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, or some other loser (among all of the many failed 2020 Democratic candidates, only Bernie could beat him, IF nominated, and he's getting too old).
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - pbrower2a - 05-02-2022
(05-01-2022, 11:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-01-2022, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-30-2022, 03:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
That's good! DeSantis, unlike his "mentor", has the wherewithal to actually do serious harm. Here's the question: is that his intent? I tend to see him as an autocrat in performance clothing. Is that a benefit to him personally or not? It's hard to see it helping him do anything but play his base like a fiddle or fail miserably trying to do something substantive.
DeSatin's score is only 12-10. He may be able to get away with a lot in Florida, but he won't be elected president unless the Democrats nominate Harris, Booker, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, or some other loser (among all of the many failed 2020 Democratic candidates, only Bernie could beat him, IF nominated, and he's getting too old).
He has ordered a cover up deaths from COVID-19 plague in his state on behalf of the tourist trade in Florida, which is criminal. Figuring that COVID-19 kills like a shooting war, I can state that encouraging people with no business going to a war zone for hedonistic purposes is callous contempt of human life.
Florida's politics seem to give complete power to either Party if it has even a bare majority, and the current Florida GOP is able to win statewide reliably in shaky elections. Florida has not been close to the national average by a narrow margin since 2000; it has consistently been "lean R". If one Party is effectively locked out of statewide elections and the winning Party acts in lockstep, then almost any graft or corruption is possible. There is no democracy within the Republican Party, which has been its strength in acting decisively on every possible issue. The weakness is that when things fall apart, everything can fall apart. These GOP ended up in lockstep on the Capitol Putsch because it could not abandon its rogues as healthy communities must.
COVID-19 and the Capitol Putsch may constitute the Crisis this time in America. It will test whether some modes of thought and personal practices collapse or get entrenched. If things go well in this Crisis then we will have major reforms, including Constitutional amendments. One obvious candidate will be a "sore loser" amendment that removes the incumbent lame-duck President should he dispute the election after it is litigated for the remainder of his current Presidency. I doubt that we want the President having the Armed Forces under his command deciding the election on his behalf. (The Joint Chiefs of Staff made clear that Trump lost and that he would have no support after his term of office ended).
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - David Horn - 05-02-2022
(05-01-2022, 11:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-01-2022, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-30-2022, 03:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
That's good! DeSantis, unlike his "mentor", has the wherewithal to actually do serious harm. Here's the question: is that his intent? I tend to see him as an autocrat in performance clothing. Is that a benefit to him personally or not? It's hard to see it helping him do anything but play his base like a fiddle or fail miserably trying to do something substantive.
DeSatin's score is only 12-10. He may be able to get away with a lot in Florida, but he won't be elected president unless the Democrats nominate Harris, Booker, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, or some other loser (among all of the many failed 2020 Democratic candidates, only Bernie could beat him, IF nominated, and he's getting too old).
Whoever the Dems run, s/he had better be bold, decisive and as plain spoken as possible. And s/he had better avoid the demure word-parsing Dems use to try to explain why they aren't really like the Reps say they are ... really! It comes across just the way it sounds: weak and apologetic. Dems need to apologize NEVER. it doesn't work for them, and it's stupid to boot.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - Eric the Green - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 01:32 PM)David Horn Wrote:(05-01-2022, 11:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-01-2022, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(04-30-2022, 03:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: In many people's minds Ron DeSantis is so scary that he has been given the nickname DeSatan.
That's good! DeSantis, unlike his "mentor", has the wherewithal to actually do serious harm. Here's the question: is that his intent? I tend to see him as an autocrat in performance clothing. Is that a benefit to him personally or not? It's hard to see it helping him do anything but play his base like a fiddle or fail miserably trying to do something substantive.
DeSatan's score is only 12-10. He may be able to get away with a lot in Florida, but he won't be elected president unless the Democrats nominate Harris, Booker, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, or some other loser (among all of the many failed 2020 Democratic candidates, only Bernie could beat him, IF nominated, and he's getting too old).
Whoever the Dems run, s/he had better be bold, decisive and as plain spoken as possible. And s/he had better avoid the demure word-parsing Dems use to try to explain why they aren't really like the Reps say they are ... really! It comes across just the way it sounds: weak and apologetic. Dems need to apologize NEVER. it doesn't work for them, and it's stupid to boot.
Indeed, and Biden has shown that capacity, expecially in a couple of speeches he made early this year. He needs to be recognized for this as much as for his soft-spoken, elderly style on other occasions. But no-one else available has this ability that you are calling for to the extent that Biden does.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - David Horn - 05-03-2022
(05-02-2022, 01:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-02-2022, 01:32 PM)David Horn Wrote: Whoever the Dems run, s/he had better be bold, decisive and as plain spoken as possible. And s/he had better avoid the demure word-parsing Dems use to try to explain why they aren't really like the Reps say they are ... really! It comes across just the way it sounds: weak and apologetic. Dems need to apologize NEVER. it doesn't work for them, and it's stupid to boot.
Indeed, and Biden has shown that capacity, especially in a couple of speeches he made early this year. He needs to be recognized for this as much as for his soft-spoken, elderly style on other occasions. But no-one else available has this ability that you are calling for to the extent that Biden does.
Here we'll have to disagree. Biden may very well have the capacity to be bold and direct, but he isn't ... not now, at least. Even Bill DeBlasio wrote an op-ed imploring Biden to do what he (DeBlasio) failed to do himself. Biden can connect with average people, because he was one once. Unfortunately, he was also taught to be humble. Humble doesn't cut it in politics.
Here's the model of how to do it. Too many of us are suffering. This is what's needed to move ahead (insert one to three well defined goals: lower drug costs, Medicare for All, higher taxes on the rich, or equally popular options), Republican oppose all of them, so we need more Dems to get them. Attach Republicans just like they attack Democrats and prove that Dems are on the side of average people. Right now, they believe it's the GOP that's in their corner.
Here's an example: when interviewed, people credited Trump with the checks they received, because his name was on them. It's BS, but it worked! Today's politics is all messaging and doing in brashly. We're way past subtle at this point.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - Eric the Green - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 09:08 AM)David Horn Wrote:(05-02-2022, 01:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-02-2022, 01:32 PM)David Horn Wrote: Whoever the Dems run, s/he had better be bold, decisive and as plain spoken as possible. And s/he had better avoid the demure word-parsing Dems use to try to explain why they aren't really like the Reps say they are ... really! It comes across just the way it sounds: weak and apologetic. Dems need to apologize NEVER. it doesn't work for them, and it's stupid to boot.
Indeed, and Biden has shown that capacity, especially in a couple of speeches he made early this year. He needs to be recognized for this as much as for his soft-spoken, elderly style on other occasions. But no-one else available has this ability that you are calling for to the extent that Biden does.
Here we'll have to disagree. Biden may very well have the capacity to be bold and direct, but he isn't ... not now, at least. Even Bill DeBlasio wrote an op-ed imploring Biden to do what he (DeBlasio) failed to do himself. Biden can connect with average people, because he was one once. Unfortunately, he was also taught to be humble. Humble doesn't cut it in politics.
Here's the model of how to do it. Too many of us are suffering. This is what's needed to move ahead (insert one to three well defined goals: lower drug costs, Medicare for All, higher taxes on the rich, or equally popular options), Republicans oppose all of them, so we need more Dems to get them. Attack Republicans just like they attack Democrats and prove that Dems are on the side of average people. Right now, they believe it's the GOP that's in their corner.
Here's an example: when interviewed, people credited Trump with the checks they received, because his name was on them. It's BS, but it worked! Today's politics is all messaging and doing it brashly. We're way past subtle at this point.
What about those two speeches at the beginning of the year? If they weren't bold and direct, I don't know what would be.
Yes, he and others need to make those points well and boldly. Biden is not always so bold and direct, and the Democrats suffer from a lack of convincing advocates right now, and that is a problem. His choice of VP was unfortunate; he should have chosen Susan Rice. Now there's a lady who can speak boldly. And has a 14-7 score, I believe.
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - beechnut79 - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 10:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-03-2022, 09:08 AM)David Horn Wrote:(05-02-2022, 01:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-02-2022, 01:32 PM)David Horn Wrote: Whoever the Dems run, s/he had better be bold, decisive and as plain spoken as possible. And s/he had better avoid the demure word-parsing Dems use to try to explain why they aren't really like the Reps say they are ... really! It comes across just the way it sounds: weak and apologetic. Dems need to apologize NEVER. it doesn't work for them, and it's stupid to boot.
Indeed, and Biden has shown that capacity, especially in a couple of speeches he made early this year. He needs to be recognized for this as much as for his soft-spoken, elderly style on other occasions. But no-one else available has this ability that you are calling for to the extent that Biden does.
Here we'll have to disagree. Biden may very well have the capacity to be bold and direct, but he isn't ... not now, at least. Even Bill DeBlasio wrote an op-ed imploring Biden to do what he (DeBlasio) failed to do himself. Biden can connect with average people, because he was one once. Unfortunately, he was also taught to be humble. Humble doesn't cut it in politics.
Here's the model of how to do it. Too many of us are suffering. This is what's needed to move ahead (insert one to three well defined goals: lower drug costs, Medicare for All, higher taxes on the rich, or equally popular options), Republicans oppose all of them, so we need more Dems to get them. Attack Republicans just like they attack Democrats and prove that Dems are on the side of average people. Right now, they believe it's the GOP that's in their corner.
Here's an example: when interviewed, people credited Trump with the checks they received, because his name was on them. It's BS, but it worked! Today's politics is all messaging and doing it brashly. We're way past subtle at this point.
What about those two speeches at the beginning of the year? If they weren't bold and direct, I don't know what would be.
Yes, he and others need to make those points well and boldly. Biden is not always so bold and direct, and the Democrats suffer from a lack of convincing advocates right now, and that is a problem. His choice of VP was unfortunate; he should have chosen Susan Rice. Now there's a lady who can speak boldly. And has a 14-7 score, I believe.
Do you happen to know Bill DeBlasio's score?
RE: The threat of misinformation, conspiracy theory and social media to our democracy - Eric the Green - 05-06-2022
(05-03-2022, 04:55 PM)beechnut79 Wrote:(05-03-2022, 10:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-03-2022, 09:08 AM)David Horn Wrote:(05-02-2022, 01:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-02-2022, 01:32 PM)David Horn Wrote: Whoever the Dems run, s/he had better be bold, decisive and as plain spoken as possible. And s/he had better avoid the demure word-parsing Dems use to try to explain why they aren't really like the Reps say they are ... really! It comes across just the way it sounds: weak and apologetic. Dems need to apologize NEVER. it doesn't work for them, and it's stupid to boot.
Indeed, and Biden has shown that capacity, especially in a couple of speeches he made early this year. He needs to be recognized for this as much as for his soft-spoken, elderly style on other occasions. But no-one else available has this ability that you are calling for to the extent that Biden does.
Here we'll have to disagree. Biden may very well have the capacity to be bold and direct, but he isn't ... not now, at least. Even Bill DeBlasio wrote an op-ed imploring Biden to do what he (DeBlasio) failed to do himself. Biden can connect with average people, because he was one once. Unfortunately, he was also taught to be humble. Humble doesn't cut it in politics.
Here's the model of how to do it. Too many of us are suffering. This is what's needed to move ahead (insert one to three well defined goals: lower drug costs, Medicare for All, higher taxes on the rich, or equally popular options), Republicans oppose all of them, so we need more Dems to get them. Attack Republicans just like they attack Democrats and prove that Dems are on the side of average people. Right now, they believe it's the GOP that's in their corner.
Here's an example: when interviewed, people credited Trump with the checks they received, because his name was on them. It's BS, but it worked! Today's politics is all messaging and doing it brashly. We're way past subtle at this point.
What about those two speeches at the beginning of the year? If they weren't bold and direct, I don't know what would be.
Yes, he and others need to make those points well and boldly. Biden is not always so bold and direct, and the Democrats suffer from a lack of convincing advocates right now, and that is a problem. His choice of VP was unfortunate; he should have chosen Susan Rice. Now there's a lady who can speak boldly. And has a 14-7 score, I believe.
Do you happen to know Bill DeBlasio's score?
His score, as currently-calculated, is 12-16.
We need to look beyond the 2020 presidential candidates as potential presidential candidates in the future, except for the incumbent for the next election. They all had lousy scores (although Bernie's is pretty good). The best candidates chose not to run.
http://philosopherswheel.com/presidentialelections.html