(03-01-2017, 05:46 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

That Thing the Standing Rock Protesters Were Afraid of Just Happened
176,000 gallons of oil spilling into a nearby creek.
BEC CREW 14 DEC 2016



A faulty pipeline has leaked 176,000 gallons of crude oil into a creek and the surrounding countryside 2.5 hours away from the Standing Rock protests in North Dakota.

The spill, which went undetected by the pipeline owners until a local stumbled on it, has spread almost 7 km (5.4 miles) from the site of the leak, and at this stage, it’s not clear what caused the pipe to rupture, or how long it’s been leaking.

According to CNN, an estimated 4,200 barrels of crude oil leaked from the Belle Fourche Pipeline in Billings County, 150 miles (241 km) from Cannon Ball in North Dakota, where protesters have been fighting the construction of the Dakota Access Pipeline.

For months, opponents of the Dakota Access Pipeline have been expressing fears that it would affect local drinking water, because it was to be built under the Missouri River near the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation - the primary water source of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe.

Last week, the US Department of the Army announced that it would not approve the crossing of the pipeline under the Missouri River.

The massive nearby spill - which was discovered on the same day that the Dakota Access Pipeline construction permit was denied - might have just proved the protesters' point.

As Derek Hawkins reports for The Washington Post, the Belle Fourche Pipeline Co., which owns the leaky pipeline in Billings Country, estimates that 130,200 gallons of oil spilled into the Little Missouri River last week, and another 46,200 gallons leaked onto a hillside.

The North Dakota Department of Health confirmed that the spill had taken place on December 5, and then again yesterday.

"Due to potentially unstable soil conditions at the point of release, the cause of the incident is not yet known," the Department of Health announced.

"The section of pipeline where the leak occurred has been isolated, and the spill has been contained."


According to Bill Suess, an environmental scientist with the North Dakota Department of Health, 37,000 gallons of oil had been recovered as of Monday, but there’s still a whole lot more to go.

"It’s going to take some time," Suess told the Associated Press. "Obviously there will be some component of the cleanup that will go toward spring."

And while local drinking water will not be affected, at least two cows have been confirmed dead in the area, but a definitive connection between their deaths and the oil spill has not been made.

It’s also not clear how the pipeline ruptured in the first place, but Belle Fourche Pipeline spokesperson, Wendy Owen, told the Associated Press that it might have occurred when the hillside slumped due to increased snowfall.

"That is our number one theory, but nothing is definitive," she said. "We have several working theories and the investigation is ongoing."

Perhaps even more concerning than a freak accident splitting the pipe is the fact that electronic monitoring equipment failed to detect the leak - something that would have prevented the pipe from spilling so much oil out into the countryside.

While there's no guarantee that a leak like this would happen at the Dakota Access Pipeline, this kind of thing is not exactly rare in the area.

As Hawkins reports for The Washington Post, True Companies, which owns Belle Fourche Pipeline Co, has a history of oil leaks in the region, reporting more than 30 spills totalling 320,000 gallons of oil since 2006.

"The Poplar Pipeline, operated by a True Companies subsidiary, leaked about 30,000 gallons of crude oil into the Yellowstone River in eastern Montana in 2015, prompting a town to shut down its drinking water service to 6,000 residents," he adds.

Belle Fourche Pipeline Co. has reported 10 oil spills since 2011.

So while none of that means the Dakota Access Pipeline is necessarily a risk, the Billings County leak is making the protesters' point for them: it's clear we need to do a better job at ensuring the structural integrity of those pipes.

http://www.sciencealert.com/that-thing-the-standing-rock-protesters-were-afraid-of-just-happened

(02-01-2017, 11:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-31-2017, 03:46 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: This one might be interesting to debate. How many studies at what confidence intervals, etc:

'Then there's atrazine, perhaps the most controversial pesticide that's used widely on US farm fields. Banned in Europe, it's an endocrine disrupter, a term used for chemicals that mimic hormones and "produce adverse developmental, reproductive, neurological, and immune effects in both humans and wildlife," according to the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences.'

While decrying junk science coming from the "Right" the Left need to be careful not to also engage in junk science.

I used to be a big time Greenie (many years ago, before there was even a Green Party here in the US). I found that at least some of the interest groups had lots of non-scientists in them and were really dominated by Gaia worshippers with meager scientific training. Various tin foil notions regarding manufactured substances carried the day. I know in some ideal utopia everything would be organically grown and free range. But that is just not feasible. There is a middle path.

The middle path is the Greenie left path now. The middle path is the path where the facts are, and that path is on the left politically. The partisan alternative is between a livable world and a non-livable world; between old dirty fossil fuels and new green clean high tech. Green tech has advanced quite a bit since it was a pie in the sky ideal in the 1970s. The transition will not be instant. But Republicans have already slowed it down or reversed it whenever they have had the power to do so, and that will continue. The transition would otherwise have been almost complete by now. Now it's being delayed further.

There is no middle ground between the parties on this. Democrats are right and Republicans are wrong. The Republicans don't want any government interference in the market, so that leaves it up to the corporate bosses what happens. That's not a partisan statement; it's just the way the parties are aligned at this time in history. 

We have a choice to make. The world can be powered by solar energy alone; it's a question of ramping it up. Under Trump we do it perhaps too slowly by relying only on the market. Under Hillary we would have had a government that speeded up the process and gave us a better chance for a livable world. We have solar energy available and other alternatives too that give us that chance. There's no excuse for delay.

Talk of the "nuclear option" reminds me of the nuclear energy option. There is some promising new developments in which waste could be used as fuel and safeguards are stronger. Still, I can't support it myself because it's not a renewable resource, and it still might not be safe. But I might not oppose it as a bridge fuel, just as natural gas as been as an alternative to coal. The nuclear fuel bridge option however is much further in the future than gas, although it's a more longer-term option than gas.

There are agricultural options and real food options being developed. Indoor and urban farms are "cropping" up, and may be less vulnerable to pests and add substantially to our food supply. I don't eat all organic myself yet; far from it. I'm not always sure what the truth is about pesticides, but I can't see how they are good to eat. It's better if we develop alternatives.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories and junk science circling around that may not be right wing, but I doubt it could be called left wing either. I guess you can say that such junk just doesn't fly. It doesn't have either wing, IOW. Speaking of flying, concern over "chemtrails" appears to be one such pile of junk that doesn't fly.

(02-01-2017, 11:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-31-2017, 03:46 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: This one might be interesting to debate. How many studies at what confidence intervals, etc:

'Then there's atrazine, perhaps the most controversial pesticide that's used widely on US farm fields. Banned in Europe, it's an endocrine disrupter, a term used for chemicals that mimic hormones and "produce adverse developmental, reproductive, neurological, and immune effects in both humans and wildlife," according to the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences.'

While decrying junk science coming from the "Right" the Left need to be careful not to also engage in junk science.

I used to be a big time Greenie (many years ago, before there was even a Green Party here in the US). I found that at least some of the interest groups had lots of non-scientists in them and were really dominated by Gaia worshippers with meager scientific training. Various tin foil notions regarding manufactured substances carried the day. I know in some ideal utopia everything would be organically grown and free range. But that is just not feasible. There is a middle path.

The middle path is the Greenie left path now. The middle path is the path where the facts are, and that path is on the left politically. The partisan alternative is between a livable world and a non-livable world; between old dirty fossil fuels and new green clean high tech. Green tech has advanced quite a bit since it was a pie in the sky ideal in the 1970s. The transition will not be instant. But Republicans have already slowed it down or reversed it whenever they have had the power to do so, and that will continue. The transition would otherwise have been almost complete by now. Now it's being delayed further.

There is no middle ground between the parties on this. Democrats are right and Republicans are wrong. The Republicans don't want any government interference in the market, so that leaves it up to the corporate bosses what happens. That's not a partisan statement; it's just the way the parties are aligned at this time in history. 

We have a choice to make. The world can be powered by solar energy alone; it's a question of ramping it up. Under Trump we do it perhaps too slowly by relying only on the market. Under Hillary we would have had a government that speeded up the process and gave us a better chance for a livable world. We have solar energy available and other alternatives too that give us that chance. There's no excuse for delay.

Talk of the "nuclear option" reminds me of the nuclear energy option. There is some promising new developments in which waste could be used as fuel and safeguards are stronger. Still, I can't support it myself because it's not a renewable resource, and it still might not be safe. But I might not oppose it as a bridge fuel, just as natural gas as been as an alternative to coal. The nuclear fuel bridge option however is much further in the future than gas, although it's a more longer-term option than gas.

There are agricultural options and real food options being developed. Indoor and urban farms are "cropping" up, and may be less vulnerable to pests and add substantially to our food supply. I don't eat all organic myself yet; far from it. I'm not always sure what the truth is about pesticides, but I can't see how they are good to eat. It's better if we develop alternatives.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories and junk science circling around that may not be right wing, but I doubt it could be called left wing either. I guess you can say that such junk just doesn't fly. It doesn't have either wing, IOW. Speaking of flying, concern over "chemtrails" appears to be one such pile of junk that doesn't fly.

(04-27-2017, 02:19 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: The thing we all need to understand about Trump is his gut level skill of knowing how to rile up certain market segments. He has a peculiar skill of showmanship. He has identified a collection of disparate market segments, each of which, alone, would be merely a marginalized fragment. But he has mastered the art of juggling between all these segments (e.g. throwing each one of them bones) and thereby cements his coalition of odd outs. Any time he tweets something, or even pursues something real, be thinking - who is he really throwing a bone to? It's more about the immediacy of his presence and maintaining his position in the media stream than doing anything substantial involving the main stream establishment.

If anything, when you see him doing something more normal, that is him being cowed by the establishment, to the chagrin of his die hard believers.

Although it's tempting to interpret this or that outrage as Trump+the establishment clawing back progressive gains, in reality its more likely Trump doing things to maintain support of the various odd outs.

(04-27-2017, 10:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-27-2017, 02:19 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: The thing we all need to understand about Trump is his gut level skill of knowing how to rile up certain market segments. He has a peculiar skill of showmanship. He has identified a collection of disparate market segments, each of which, alone, would be merely a marginalized fragment. But he has mastered the art of juggling between all these segments (e.g. throwing each one of them bones) and thereby cements his coalition of odd outs. Any time he tweets something, or even pursues something real, be thinking - who is he really throwing a bone to? It's more about the immediacy of his presence and maintaining his position in the media stream than doing anything substantial involving the main stream establishment.

If anything, when you see him doing something more normal, that is him being cowed by the establishment, to the chagrin of his die hard believers.

Although it's tempting to interpret this or that outrage as Trump+the establishment clawing back progressive gains, in reality its more likely Trump doing things to maintain support of the various odd outs.

Well, except that those odd-outs he is throwing bones to, now that he's president, pretty-much all turn out to be extreme right-wing wackos of one sort or another. It's a coalition of wackos, including those in the Establishment. And his particular media skill is undeniable.

(05-01-2017, 02:24 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-27-2017, 10:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-27-2017, 02:19 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: The thing we all need to understand about Trump is his gut level skill of knowing how to rile up certain market segments. He has a peculiar skill of showmanship. He has identified a collection of disparate market segments, each of which, alone, would be merely a marginalized fragment. But he has mastered the art of juggling between all these segments (e.g. throwing each one of them bones) and thereby cements his coalition of odd outs. Any time he tweets something, or even pursues something real, be thinking - who is he really throwing a bone to? It's more about the immediacy of his presence and maintaining his position in the media stream than doing anything substantial involving the main stream establishment.

If anything, when you see him doing something more normal, that is him being cowed by the establishment, to the chagrin of his die hard believers.

Although it's tempting to interpret this or that outrage as Trump+the establishment clawing back progressive gains, in reality its more likely Trump doing things to maintain support of the various odd outs.

Well, except that those odd-outs he is throwing bones to, now that he's president, pretty-much all turn out to be extreme right-wing wackos of one sort or another. It's a coalition of wackos, including those in the Establishment. And his particular media skill is undeniable.

I have to disagree with this.  Most Trump supporters are not wackos of any sort, and that's why Hillary's use of the word "deplorables" rankled.  Most of the people backing Trump see him as the last opportunity they expect to see, because the mainstream pols all screw them consistently.  It's either Trump or the dump, and they've seen plenty of the latter.

Eventually, Trump will disappoint too, but for now, he's got 50 miles of rope to run on.

(05-01-2017, 02:24 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-27-2017, 10:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-27-2017, 02:19 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: The thing we all need to understand about Trump is his gut level skill of knowing how to rile up certain market segments. He has a peculiar skill of showmanship. He has identified a collection of disparate market segments, each of which, alone, would be merely a marginalized fragment. But he has mastered the art of juggling between all these segments (e.g. throwing each one of them bones) and thereby cements his coalition of odd outs. Any time he tweets something, or even pursues something real, be thinking - who is he really throwing a bone to? It's more about the immediacy of his presence and maintaining his position in the media stream than doing anything substantial involving the main stream establishment.

If anything, when you see him doing something more normal, that is him being cowed by the establishment, to the chagrin of his die hard believers.

Although it's tempting to interpret this or that outrage as Trump+the establishment clawing back progressive gains, in reality its more likely Trump doing things to maintain support of the various odd outs.

Well, except that those odd-outs he is throwing bones to, now that he's president, pretty-much all turn out to be extreme right-wing wackos of one sort or another. It's a coalition of wackos, including those in the Establishment. And his particular media skill is undeniable.

I have to disagree with this.  Most Trump supporters are not wackos of any sort, and that's why Hillary's use of the word "deplorables" rankled.  Most of the people backing Trump see him as the last opportunity they expect to see, because the mainstream pols all screw them consistently.  It's either Trump or the dump, and they've seen plenty of the latter.

Eventually, Trump will disappoint too, but for now, he's got 50 miles of rope to run on.

(05-02-2017, 10:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: ... It's true that many of those still backing him see Drump as an opportunity to rebel against the "mainstream" or unseat the Establishment. But this is called deception, which is exactly what the American people have been the victim of for 40 years now. Deception is all it is. Trump IS a key member of the Establishment, and that's all he is, whereas Hillary was the rebel girl. But, many voters did not correctly see this fact; that's true.

Maybe Trump will start to change his tune. He is making noises about breaking up the banks and restoring Glass-Steagall. I don't think he has a clue about how to proceed yet, though. He's good at making noise. All he seems capable of so far, however, is issuing executive orders that benefit the wealthy few and hurt the people, as well as turn different groups against one another.

(05-08-2017, 01:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: CNN is reporting that the Environmental Protection Agency is firing scientists.  They mention that these are technical positions rather than political positions, thus it is not traditional to fire and replace them on a presidential change of power.