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RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Eric the Green - 06-15-2020
Quote:Now for Eric...,
You know Eric, I actually want to apologise to you. I think we got off on the wrong foot and have been in this sort of cold war since. What do you say we let bygones be bygones, shake hands and just get on? I like posting here, you like posting here, so let's be big men about it, eh? If your ever in Russia or I'm ever in America, I'll buy you a beer sometime.
I guess this was from Isoko? If so......
OK, that's something to consider. I don't put people on ignore because I disagree with them; it's how people treat me, more or less.
Thanks for your apology.
(not that I will ever go to Russia, or drink beer, but whatever works.....)
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Isoko - 06-15-2020
Eric,
Yes that was from me. I realised I had been too harsh to you and felt that I owed you an apology. I hope that we can once again let bygones be bygones. Plus I have some interesting stuff I'd like to discuss with you at some point that I think you might find interesting.
As for the beer - well whatever you fancy, I'm sure we can work something out. :
Also I liked your music list. You do have good taste and I can see why there was a strong liberal element amongst the boomers. It must have been a very magical time to be alive.
Blazkovitz,
What you have to understand about Russia is that it never was 'Western' and never will be. Throughout Russian history, the society has always been run along the lines of the 'strong king theory' which is basically the need for a strong ruler to unite the country and guide it through turbulent times on the road to a better future. Putin is no stranger to this tradition and has followed it quite resolutely. As someone once told me, "Putin knows how to be king." Therefore, there never has been the strong desire for a democracy.
As pbrower and others have said, this is largely down to the history of Russia and how they developed. They have always struggled on the land they live in, always being attacked and having to deal with hardships that strong leadership has always been required to get them through it.
Peter the Great and Catherine were in the same mould as this and merely copied the West in order to make Russia more competitive like what Japan did during the Meiji Restoration. However in Peter's case he was heavily in love with the West and saw Russia as a backwards nation. Even still, the reforms instituted did meet with much opposition and Russia sort of fell back into their old ways, failing to industrialise properly until Stalin came along.
Due to living in the steppe and embracing the lifestyle, I'd say Russians are not Western but not Eastern either. It's more like a true East meets West nation and always will be.
Pbrower,
Lots of stuff to reply to so I will be sure to give it a more thoughtful reply later on.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Mikebert - 06-15-2020
(06-15-2020, 03:20 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: Overall I always considered Russians a part of Western civilization, and this is how the Middle East views them too. But when it comes to politics, Russians are more resistant to democracy than Indonesia with its exotic heritage. Is this because of Stalin's purges, which unwittingly eliminated all people with genetic traits conducive to supporting democracy?
But they're not. The difference between Orthodox and Western Christianity comes from the different paths they took. When Christianity was established as a formal religion in the 4th century it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. When the Empire split for good in 395 CE, the path taken by the Christian hierarchy in the West began to deviate from that of the East. The latter remained true to the original formulation (orthodox) remaining a state religion.
In the West they tried to, but first the Western Empire crumbled before the eyes. The province of Britain reverted to paganism. The Iberian province was overrun by Muslims. The Franks were Roman Christians, and with Charlemagne's conquests, there was once again a western "Roman" empire with western (Catholic) Christianity as its state religion. At this point, not too different from Orthodox. But then the Carolingian empire fell in the West, and you had a period known as the Feudalization of the church. In the absence of the empire, of which state was Catholicism the state religion for? All these petty warlords running around late 9th and 10th century France? What arose was a system of religious institutions (e.g. Cluniac monasteries) that was independent of local political authorities, acknowledging only the authority of the Bishop of Rome (Pope), who was enmeshed in Italian politics and uninterested in the affairs of French monasteries, making them free to evolve along different lines than they would have in the East, where the Roman empire was still intact.
As a result of this split, the West evolved in a different direction than the East. In the West there was the Reformation, because of this independent tradition that originally emerged from the crisis of the 9th and 10th centuries. Once split off, Protestantism continued to develop in all sorts of ways including Liberalism, Humanism and, recently, this new "Woke" theology. Russia and the Orthodox countries have never been part of the West. They are their own thing.
It is true we both count Classical civilization as antecedents, but so does Islam. But we departed from the orthodox path that Eastern Christianity remained on. (Islam is an even more orthodox faith, as shown by it's extreme conservative factions embracing of medieval forms and practices).
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Tim Randal Walker - 06-15-2020
I recall a magazine article that predicted that eventually all races would mix...eventually resulting in a single blended population. It was suggested that everyone would resemble Polynesians in appearance.
So racism would fade away, because there would only be one race.
But....
Humanity has an ornery streak. People would find some reason to hate each other. Maybe they will hate each other for having different religions, different political ideologies, for speaking different languages, etc.
One might assume that such differences would be put aside by people of good will. But in large groups, there are never enough people of good will to completely over come that ornery streak.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Blazkovitz - 06-16-2020
(06-15-2020, 05:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(06-15-2020, 03:20 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: Overall I always considered Russians a part of Western civilization, and this is how the Middle East views them too. But when it comes to politics, Russians are more resistant to democracy than Indonesia with its exotic heritage. Is this because of Stalin's purges, which unwittingly eliminated all people with genetic traits conducive to supporting democracy?
I always considered the invasions more important. They got ate by the mongols, then beat back three attempts from Europe. The Mongols taught them how to rule as conquered. The rulers exploit the people. The failures from Europe meant they never leaned the Enlightenment values. They are still stuck on autocracy.
In many ways they are more European than Asian, culturally, if you just add vodka. The twin curses of the leadership exploiting the people and lacking the Enlightenment virtues leaves them well behind Europe, far enough that they are commonly separated from it.
It's an ongoing debate in Russia as well:
https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/331166-russia-part-of-europe
I agree with the author that Russia is culturally closer to Germany or France than to India, Saudi Arabia or Japan. Politically it's a uniue bizarre thing, a sort of Roman Empire. It's telling that Americans still regard Russia as the un-America (Democrats hate it for this reason, and Trumpkins love it for the same reason). I never heard India, Saudi Arabia or Japan defined as the opposite of America, OK maybe Saudi Arabia by neocons during the War on Terror.
As for the Enlightenment, I don't really like it. It gave the world radical individualism and naive faith in humanity which are present in both Wokism (Inclusivism) and Libertarianism.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Blazkovitz - 06-16-2020
(06-15-2020, 06:45 AM)Mikebert Wrote: the Orthodox countries have never been part of the West. They are their own thing.
Romania and Bulgaria are a part of the EU, and there are more Orthodox Xians there than in Russia.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 03:04 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: As for the Enlightenment, I don't really like it. It gave the world radical individualism and naive faith in humanity which are present in both Wokism (Inclusivism) and Libertarianism.
I favor the elements of human rights, equality, and democracy. Those I will keep. Those pretty much separate Europe from Asia.
The philosophies of Individualism, Wokism, and Libertarianism I could pretty much ignore. I'll let you dump on them without much caring.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Eric the Green - 06-16-2020
(06-15-2020, 06:45 AM)Mikebert Wrote:(06-15-2020, 03:20 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: Overall I always considered Russians a part of Western civilization, and this is how the Middle East views them too. But when it comes to politics, Russians are more resistant to democracy than Indonesia with its exotic heritage. Is this because of Stalin's purges, which unwittingly eliminated all people with genetic traits conducive to supporting democracy?
But they're not. The difference between Orthodox and Western Christianity comes from the different paths they took. When Christianity was established as a formal religion in the 4th century it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. When the Empire split for good in 395 CE, the path taken by the Christian hierarchy in the West began to deviate from that of the East. The latter remained true to the original formulation (orthodox) remaining a state religion.
In the West they tried to, but first the Western Empire crumbled before the eyes. The province of Britain reverted to paganism. The Iberian province was overrun by Muslims. The Franks were Roman Christians, and with Charlemagne's conquests, there was once again a western "Roman" empire with western (Catholic) Christianity as its state religion. At this point, not too different from Orthodox. But then the Carolingian empire fell in the West, and you had a period known as the Feudalization of the church. In the absence of the empire, of which state was Catholicism the state religion for? All these petty warlords running around late 9th and 10th century France? What arose was a system of religious institutions (e.g. Cluniac monasteries) that was independent of local political authorities, acknowledging only the authority of the Bishop of Rome (Pope), who was enmeshed in Italian politics and uninterested in the affairs of French monasteries, making them free to evolve along different lines than they would have in the East, where the Roman empire was still intact.
As a result of this split, the West evolved in a different direction than the East. In the West there was the Reformation, because of this independent tradition that originally emerged from the crisis of the 9th and 10th centuries. Once split off, Protestantism continued to develop in all sorts of ways including Liberalism, Humanism and, recently, this new "Woke" theology. Russia and the Orthodox countries have never been part of the West. They are their own thing.
It is true we both count Classical civilization as antecedents, but so does Islam. But we departed from the orthodox path that Eastern Christianity remained on. (Islam is an even more orthodox faith, as shown by it's extreme conservative factions embracing of medieval forms and practices).
Good summary. Theoretically the West still had the Holy Roman empire, but it was weak. Originally Islam was a reform movement, but it has become orthodox and conservative.
I like Inclusivism and see nothing wrong with it. I think it includes all the people in Blazkovitz's quadrant, and Greens are included in that, and thus myself; they include some new ideas that go beyond the Enlightenment, especially in giving rights to Nature, and the ideal of peace, as well as accepting diversity. To me these also imply the inherent spiritual or mystical nature of humanity and life, although not a rejection of science.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Eric the Green - 06-16-2020
(06-15-2020, 07:45 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: I recall a magazine article that predicted that eventually all races would mix...eventually resulting in a single blended population. It was suggested that everyone would resemble Polynesians in appearance.
So racism would fade away, because there would only be one race.
But....
Humanity has an ornery streak. People would find some reason to hate each other. Maybe they will hate each other for having different religions, different political ideologies, for speaking different languages, etc.
One might assume that such differences would be put aside by people of good will. But in large groups, there are never enough people of good will to completely over come that ornery streak.
There does seem to be an ornery streak. I am very disappointed that many people I know who profess liberal and/or spiritual ideals are still ornery, and that they mistreat me and my friends. I don't exclude myself. The groups are becoming obsolete, but the ornery streak may take longer to root out. It will take spiritual evolution, since ornery streaks come mostly from the anxious impulses within us that we have not yet learned to deal with very well. Gautama the Buddha remains the greatest psychologist in human history, and maybe the first.
I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Tim Randal Walker - 06-16-2020
Yeah, I hate the ornery streak.
But the ornery streak isn't the only problem. That cop in Minneapolis is a goddamn idiot.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 03:44 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Yeah, I hate the ornery streak.
But the ornery streak isn't the only problem. That cop in Minneapolis is a goddamn idiot.
I'm again not sure idiot is the right word. He may have a warped issue of superiority due to pigmentation lack. He may have a based on history belief that this lack gives him immunity from equality and justice, and always will. But these are elements of his world view, and S&H turning theory is in part about how world views collectively change, notably in a crisis heart.
Idiocy doesn't change. I suspect the reds are guilty of something other than idiocy.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - TnT - 06-17-2020
(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.
"Democracy in the West?" It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.
Justice? When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?" Where is this "Justice?"
Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's. Justice, you say ...
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - David Horn - 06-17-2020
(06-17-2020, 04:27 PM)TnT Wrote:(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.
"Democracy in the West?" It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.
Justice? When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?" Where is this "Justice?"
Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's. Justice, you say ...
In a way, Trump energized his opposition more than any other force possibly could. He's so obnoxious, overbearing and out of touch, that anyone with a functioning brain stem and even a slightly open mind is repulsed. If we're not totally unlucky, that may be enough.
Of course, getting rid of the Orange One is only the first step. The damage he's done is deep, and we were already on the wrong side of the progress curve before he made his appearance. It will be 5-10 years getting to the right side of this. I'm hoping to be there.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Bob Butler 54 - 06-17-2020
(06-17-2020, 04:27 PM)TnT Wrote:(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.
"Democracy in the West?" It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.
Justice? When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?" Where is this "Justice?"
Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's. Justice, you say ...
Hey, the crisis heart is barely starting. The Agricultural Age was a mess. Each crisis and the last awakening addressed the major issues confronting the culture. The conservatives have the edge for most of the turnings, and each turning goes only so far before everyone turns their minds towards never again and infrastructure building. That means change is slow. A few issues at a time.
Still, now that the crisis heart is finally here, you can see what flaws are being addressed and how. One can see how racial injustice, the virus and sorta elitism are being addressed. These three fronts and the boots on the ground allergy to neocolonialism from Bush 43’s wars seem about right. We just need to stay the course.
The uncommitted issues right now are environmentalism and the elite influence over the government. There is time enough that one or both of these could be addressed should Biden win in the fall. The Republicans with their Tea Party influence seem to be more disgusted with their elites than the Democrats. I remain dubious that these issues will be addressed in this crisis.
But for early days, the crisis seems to be heading in the right direction. This is the wrong time to assume that nothing ever changes. This is time to hold onto your hat.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - pbrower2a - 06-17-2020
(06-15-2020, 04:13 PM)taramarie Wrote:(06-14-2020, 04:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Tara -- learn Slovak. That is one way in which to show an intent to remain there. Czech or Polish would be more useful from a cultural standpoint because there is more literature in both, and Slovak is fairly close to both.
I am taking a course and am learning Slovak, but it is bloody hard. Totally foreign from english. I would have an easier time with German.
I congratulate you on the effort.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Eric the Green - 06-17-2020
(06-17-2020, 04:27 PM)TnT Wrote:(06-16-2020, 03:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I trust that humans have evolved in the past and will continue to do so, generally speaking. I see that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Democracy in The West and in its former colonies is evidence of this, and so is that much-hated organization the United Nations. Wars still happen but are declining.
"Democracy in the West?" It doesn't seem to be doing very well right now.
Justice? When I consider the number of anti-police-violence riots that have happened in this country for over a century, combine that with racist incarceration, cash bail exploitation, ongoing racist behavior by white supremacist America, "Justice?" Where is this "Justice?"
Let's pardon some more Joe Arpaio's, Flynn's and Stone's. Justice, you say ...
TnT. Haven't seen you here in a while :
wbNo, it isn't doing well right now. I do have crystal ball though, remember? You may remember that for decades I have predicted the 2020s will be progressive. It already seems to be happening. So, Democracy will recover.
Justice? The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends there.
More brutal cops getting charged. Justice is making a comeback.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Eric the Green - 06-17-2020
The race and culture mix will continue. It doesn't happen often in the first generation, but in the second or third, it often does. America is the future in this respect. It will happen more slowly in some countries. The change may be unpleasant or inconvenient for many. I know I don't always relate to the fact that I grew up in a majority white city and now live in a plurality-asian and minority white city in CA, and it's the same city. In such a trend as global race and culture mixing, it's a long-term deal, with many stops and starts along the way. It is as inevitable as flights from New York to Beijing and Tokyo. We are one global civilization already, and have been for over a century. You can feel it if you pat attention. The one great world soul blooming in our time. The men died in the trenches of WWI to give birth to the first world government, and it will expand. And so will freedom and justice.
RE: Thoughts on the mixed race, globalised world of the future - Isoko - 06-18-2020
You know, the more that I think about it, the more I realise that I don't think global civilisation will come about. However Eric is talking sense when it comes to America and I agree with him on this principle. You see, during my occult studies, it was widely reported that America would give birth to something known as "the sixth root race". At the time it was all the European ethnic groups mixing there and now it is the races. I think that overall, America will give birth to a new entirely different race of people.
However, the more I peer deeper into it all, the more I realise the rest of the world is not going to follow suit. I think the American model is good enough for America but not the rest of the world. Japan is a brilliant example of this. It has not been closed off at all compared to say Russia or even North Korea but at the same time, it very homogenous and as I pointed out, the only mixing that does occur is usually with Koreans, Chinese and to a lesser extent, Thais and Filipinos. Usually it's Japanese men, as a majority, that do this mixing and it is when they can't find wives. But even still, the national mindset is firmly ingrained to marry Japanese 99 percent of the time or as a minority, the other Asian groups. Very rare for it to be other racial intermarriages.
So looking at it, I think that by the year 2100, Japan and other Asian countries are very much going to resemble how they are today. As for Africa, I'd expect pretty much the same. Now Europe is the interesting question and one that does fascinate me alot.
I have no idea what is going to happen to Europe but due to its close proximity to the Islamic world, I don't think Europe can ever successfully follow the American model. With the exception of the UK and Scandinavia countries, Europeans tend to be more nativist in their outlook. The more East you go, the more the nationalism grows.
I think, if I am to be honest, we will see a world of new civilisations and races grow to compete with the old. It doesn't fit American ideals but then, the whole world is not America and never will be. And this to me is a good thing.
As you Americans like to say, "stay off my lawn."