(03-25-2017, 01:54 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bob,

I would have a hard time calling myself a partisan.  I'm beholden to neither the Dim-ocrats nor the Repugnicans.  By and large I find the establishments of both Parties to be awful.  Eric on the other hand is very partisan--probably for the Greens or some other type of nonsense.  Seriously if you listen to the guy long enough you come to determine that if he indeed does have a political ideology at all, he's a watermelon.

The Tea Party/Trump faction is coming to dominate the Party.  Indeed Ryan had to pull his Obamacare Light bill because he simply didn't have the votes to get it out of the House (never mind the fact that it was DOA in the Senate).  As for bending the party to the intuative style of Trump I'm not sure that is required.  What is required a rebranding of the GOP as the party of Classical Liberalism, General Social Conservatism, and economic liberty.  Those three vectors are of prime importance to Xers and Zeds.  Millies may still orbit a bit around the Dims but that remains to be seen.

Quote:Essentially taking those positions leaves the Dims the dullards, the reactionaries, the NeoLiberals and the NeoCons.  In short they are and will be the losers for the next saeculum.

Quote:As to Clinton--I think her presidency would have been a disaster, and that's assuming she would have made it to 2020 (as I posted previously I'm not convinced she's in good health).  Indeed when everyone recognizes that part of the problem is the Washington Establishment running someone who is the very definition of that establishment indicates that the party in question is out of ideas.

Quote:As to tribes:  The largest possible tribe to date is in fact the nation which can have millions of individuals.  That being said the average individual only really cares about 20-30 other individuals tops.

As to threats, yes I would say an existential threat is required for a civic generation to become a hero generation.  That's about all I'll say about threats in general.  The new economic formulation and climate change though are slow moving threats and unlikely to inspire much passion apart from a few Prophet Gen wackos. 

Humans still have a relatively primitive brain structure and as such we're still going to have to contend with flight or fight responses--economic change and climate change simply don't trigger that mechanism.

Quote:As to Obamacare 2.0 since you brought it up.  As I said previously Ryan didn't have the votes.  Had he brought the bill to the floor it would have died and likely resulted in a push for a vote of no confidence.  The fact of the matter is he can't control the house as it stands and he probably should be replaced soon.  If he brings a clean repeal to the floor it would pass and be signed within a week.

Ryan is part of the GOP establishment so expect there to be a lot of noise and fuss about the bill.  Don't expect much to be done about it.  If he wants to save his speakership he should move on to other issues.

Quote:As for Obamacare itself, it will collapse under its own weight anyway.  The problem is getting the Dims to own that collapse.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

(03-25-2017, 04:31 PM)FLBones Wrote: Who cares if the job is "mindless" and "dull" if it offers full time positions with decent pay, benefits and pension? I'd take a factory job in a heartbeat if they were available. The elitist attitudes towards factory/manufacturing jobs is partly what led to the demise of it here in the US. It's better than the way things are now with most jobs being in the service sector. It's predominately low paying part time jobs. And a lot of these service sector jobs have irregular working hours like working nights, weekends, holidays, etc.

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

(03-25-2017, 04:57 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

No respect.  Maybe he should wear his SNL costume with the death mask and black robes?

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

(03-25-2017, 07:26 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 04:57 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

No respect.  Maybe he should wear his SNL costume with the death mask and black robes?

Or maybe Odin doesn't understand how the Republican mind works.  Had Bannon told me to vote for this thing and I were a Rep...I'd have been like "fuck you".  I mean it would have been a visceral and gut reaction--that would be the gut reaction on a clean repeal never mind a steaming pile of excrement that is Obamacare Lite.  All the fail of Obamacare but less spending on socialist programs.

Of course, Odin, also says that I'm delusional when I say that the fall of "Ryancare" was deliberate.

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

(03-26-2017, 01:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

Republicans in 2009 (and most of the time for the last several decades) are only interested in one thing: blocking anything to be done. Their project is to reduce the government they don't like so it fits inside a bathtub, and building up the government they do like into an autocracy to protect the oligarchy. The Republicans never did anything but resist a compromise health care reform bill that was patterned after their own earlier plans and those of Gov. Romney. No Democratic leader can work with today's Republicans, because their only goal is to destroy and to oppose Democrats. They do not compromise or work with Democrats.

Ryan and Trump didn't "try;" they only want to protect free enterprise, not peoples' health. Their failure is their baby now. They have the majority in the government, and could have passed it by the reconciliation process just like the Democrats passed Obamacare, but their bill was so poor and unpopular that they couldn't even get their own Republicans behind them. The Republicans spent 7 years repealing Obamacare and offering no alternative. They still don't have an alternative to offer, and that's because they never wanted reform at all.

The only hope for Trump is to dump his Republicans after many failures in the coming months, and govern from the center instead by working with Democrats. But he probably can't do that, because he has surrounded himself with extreme right wingers, and has proposed an extreme right wing budget that he has to stand behind at least for a year or two. Because he can't admit that he is ever wrong or makes mistakes, making such an adjustment is personally hard for him. And since he does not understand the issues in any depth, he lacks much of the deal making ability he promised to bring to the job. He would have to portray his adjustment as a victory, somehow; an expression of his ongoing leadership in making America great again. And then work at being a real leader, not just a showman. I'm not optimistic. Can the impulsive and brash Mars in Leo the Lion rising change his spots? Or will his priority remain having his lion-colored mane combed and groomed?

Quote:Classic-Xer Wrote:

Trump isn't going to dump Republicans as you'd hope that he would in time. That would be silly. Nope, he should just chalk it up as a loss, move on and allow the Democrats time to accept the reality of twenty million blue voters loosing their free healthcare in a few years with no other options available for them. I can only imagine how nasty the town halls are going to be in Democratic districts.

(03-25-2017, 02:48 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 02:44 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 02:32 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: That was told to me today by a regular Snowbird.

Sure it was...

Hey just because you don't know any Canadians doesn't mean I don't.  Strange animals Canadians.  They seem to prefer our country to their own.

(03-26-2017, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-26-2017, 01:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

Republicans in 2009 (and most of the time for the last several decades) are only interested in one thing: blocking anything to be done. Their project is to reduce the government they don't like so it fits inside a bathtub, and building up the government they do like into an autocracy to protect the oligarchy. The Republicans never did anything but resist a compromise health care reform bill that was patterned after their own earlier plans and those of Gov. Romney. No Democratic leader can work with today's Republicans, because their only goal is to destroy and to oppose Democrats. They do not compromise or work with Democrats.

Ryan and Trump didn't "try;" they only want to protect free enterprise, not peoples' health. Their failure is their baby now. They have the majority in the government, and could have passed it by the reconciliation process just like the Democrats passed Obamacare, but their bill was so poor and unpopular that they couldn't even get their own Republicans behind them. The Republicans spent 7 years repealing Obamacare and offering no alternative. They still don't have an alternative to offer, and that's because they never wanted reform at all.

The only hope for Trump is to dump his Republicans after many failures in the coming months, and govern from the center instead by working with Democrats. But he probably can't do that, because he has surrounded himself with extreme right wingers, and has proposed an extreme right wing budget that he has to stand behind at least for a year or two. Because he can't admit that he is ever wrong or makes mistakes, making such an adjustment is personally hard for him. And since he does not understand the issues in any depth, he lacks much of the deal making ability he promised to bring to the job. He would have to portray his adjustment as a victory, somehow; an expression of his ongoing leadership in making America great again. And then work at being a real leader, not just a showman. I'm not optimistic. Can the impulsive and brash Mars in Leo the Lion rising change his spots? Or will his priority remain having his lion-colored mane combed and groomed?

Trump isn't going to dump Republicans as you'd hope that he would in time. That would be silly. Nope, he should just chalk it up as a loss, move on and allow the Democrats time to accept the reality of twenty million blue voters loosing their free healthcare in a few years with no other options available for them. I can only imagine how nasty the town halls are going to be in Democratic districts.

(03-26-2017, 10:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Looks like Bernie is going to throw out 'Medicare for Everybody', a simple place to start if one is thinking single payer.  I feel confident that somebody on the D side will throw out a 'tune Obamacare' bill.  I'm also not totally confident that the Republicans won't try to get back in the game.

But, meanwhile, it's finger pointing and blame game time.  This forum illustrates this as well as anything.  People living in different alternate realities will viciously attack assorted straw men.  It seems wise to sit back until the garbage burns out, assuming it ever burns out.

But mild applause for Bernie for throwing out something that might be a starting point for talking.

(03-27-2017, 11:40 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-26-2017, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-26-2017, 01:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

Republicans in 2009 (and most of the time for the last several decades) are only interested in one thing: blocking anything to be done. Their project is to reduce the government they don't like so it fits inside a bathtub, and building up the government they do like into an autocracy to protect the oligarchy. The Republicans never did anything but resist a compromise health care reform bill that was patterned after their own earlier plans and those of Gov. Romney. No Democratic leader can work with today's Republicans, because their only goal is to destroy and to oppose Democrats. They do not compromise or work with Democrats.

Ryan and Trump didn't "try;" they only want to protect free enterprise, not peoples' health. Their failure is their baby now. They have the majority in the government, and could have passed it by the reconciliation process just like the Democrats passed Obamacare, but their bill was so poor and unpopular that they couldn't even get their own Republicans behind them. The Republicans spent 7 years repealing Obamacare and offering no alternative. They still don't have an alternative to offer, and that's because they never wanted reform at all.

The only hope for Trump is to dump his Republicans after many failures in the coming months, and govern from the center instead by working with Democrats. But he probably can't do that, because he has surrounded himself with extreme right wingers, and has proposed an extreme right wing budget that he has to stand behind at least for a year or two. Because he can't admit that he is ever wrong or makes mistakes, making such an adjustment is personally hard for him. And since he does not understand the issues in any depth, he lacks much of the deal making ability he promised to bring to the job. He would have to portray his adjustment as a victory, somehow; an expression of his ongoing leadership in making America great again. And then work at being a real leader, not just a showman. I'm not optimistic. Can the impulsive and brash Mars in Leo the Lion rising change his spots? Or will his priority remain having his lion-colored mane combed and groomed?

Trump isn't going to dump Republicans as you'd hope that he would in time. That would be silly. Nope, he should just chalk it up as a loss, move on and allow the Democrats time to accept the reality of twenty million blue voters loosing their free healthcare in a few years with no other options available for them. I can only imagine how nasty the town halls are going to be in Democratic districts.

Probably so. But the "no other options available to them" is just what they would have had either before Obamacare, or under Trumpcare.