(05-08-2020, 10:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 08:58 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(05-07-2020, 08:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The wikipedia pages do not have up to date data. What I mentioned was what things were starting to be like, not what they were over the last month before today. That is the point you missed, due to your own wishful thinking. The point is that these states have Republican MIS-governors who have just started opening up their economies now, following Drump's wishes. According to the figures on worldometer today, they have more new cases than before, many more than Louisiana which has a Democratic governor and is proceeding more carefully. Louisiana was in the top 5 states and getting worse a month or so ago. Now it is 11th. Washington was first and is now 18th. Those states with responsible governors have declined relative to the other states.

The virus came on planes from tourists in Europe to New York and New Jersey and Massachusetts and spread from there across many states with people who travel and have money (mostly blue states). This happened because Trump did not stop or test people coming into the USA from Europe in time. Red states are more rural and poor and so did not get infected as quickly. So far India and China have far more people and far fewer cases because of the policies they pursued. The USA, UK and Brazil have the most new cases now because of their Trumpist policies and leaders. Sweden has more than its share because it did not lock down. Russia has the most new cases next to the USA now, but far fewer deaths, and far more testing so far.

I don't wish for the USA to catch up with Spain and the UK in total deaths per capita. But it probably will. Deaths take longer to happen than new cases. We don't have a better testing program than most EU countries. Our per capita or per million pop testing is lower than many of them.

Germany has had the best testing program in the EU, and has far fewer deaths and is declining in the "standings" among countries for cases. China, Taiwan, South Korea, Thailand, New Zealand, Australia and some European countries are having the smallest number of new cases and deaths now.

If you refuse to check worldometer, then your data is out of date. They have stats for the world, the USA, the states, and even counties within many states now. My county of Santa Clara, the first on the west coast to be infected, is doing well right now. Los Angeles is doing better now than it was, and so is New York. NY only had less than 4000 new cases today, after having about 10,000 a day for many weeks. And yet the total new cases per day for the USA is still at 30,000. So the virus is increasing in other places besides New York and California now.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

We'll see what happens in the coming weeks in the states that open up too soon.

I like how whenever something bad happens to a blue state, you blame Republicans - like blaming Trump for late cutoff of travel from Europe for the northeast's problems - but when something good happens to a blue state, you credit Democrats - as with the relatively good results on the West Coast.  At a minimum if you blame Trump's later shutdown of travel from Europe for the fact that the East Coast did worse, you should credit Trump's earlier shutdown of travel from China for the fact that the West coast did better!

I do like the fact that you generally pay attention to the facts, even when they aren't convenient - unlike most other politically blue posters on this site, who are just in denial about any facts that don't support their agenda.

When I look at the Worldometer graphs, they cut off at May 1, so they are hardly up to date.  Maybe you are looking at some blip in the figures that haven't made it to Wikipedia yet, but if so, we'll see it in a couple of weeks, as you suggest.

For my part, I think Georgia could have problems.  The trend lines in Texas might steepen, but given how minor the whole Covid-19 issue is there, the benefits of raising the lockdown will be far greater there than an increase in the Covid-19 trend lines.  Let's not forget that an economic shutdown kills people too.

Florida I think will be okay, as their new cases have a falling trend at present, and they're not reopening the blue counties where that would cause a problem.

Trump does get credit for cutting off travel from China, which he endlessly does for himself. It was also a bit late, however. And those states and countries with effective shutdowns have done the best, there's no doubt about that. If the virus cases continue to rise, the shutdowns will be re-imposed.

The worldometer is up to date to the minute. If you click on yesterday, you can see the totals as of Midnight GMT for each day. We'll see what the trend is, but Florida also saw a rise in new cases yesterday, much more than Louisiana which is close to it in total cases along with Texas and Georgia. If you follow the numbers daily you can get an idea of the trend without a graph or make your own. That the USA continues to get 30,000 new cases each day is clear. You can see the numbers for the states and the countries each day. The Trumpist countries of the USA, UK and Brazil which shut down too late now have the fastest-rising number of cases, along with Trump sponsor Putin's Russia. The UK is now second place in total deaths.

If the economic shutdown kills people, it will be because the Republican congress has not provided enough support, and because Trump has withheld funds. The congress voted 2.2 trillion dollars. I would have thought that would be sufficient. These funds were to be provided to businesses as loans, which would be grants if they kept paying their employees, but many did not get them, while many large corporations who could have afforded paying their workers anyway did get them. In a depression, the federal government is supposed to provide relief. Trump has blown this crisis and should pay the price at the polls. He is today's Herbert Hoover. He is the USA's Louis XVI, the "executive that doesn't act." He wants to reopen the economy without providing the testing nationwide that is needed for this.

But the question is whether Trump and state Republican rulers will succeed in November 2020 in suppressing the vote. They succeeded in Wisconsin, and Trump's Courts allowed it. That is a huge signal that our democracy is in severe danger. The Democrats won that primary election in a judicial race only because the Republicans weren't holding a primary. Trump wants to let the post office go under, and he wishes mail in voting to be suppressed. He and his cohorts want to limit early voting and make people vote at an inadequate number of polling places on election day in the midst of the pandemic, effectively telling voters to risk their lives to vote. This in addition to states with Republican governors or others who could manage to purge rolls unfairly. 

If the vote is suppressed, the pitchforks and guillotines should come out and the people should do civil disobedience to stop the government from working. It will be time for an American Marseillaise. Whether such a revolt and general strike would work is another question. If Trump loses, then his attempt to rally his gun-toting supporters to bring off a coup in January will have to be defeated, and it could be bloody.

(05-08-2020, 02:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The White House strategy seems to be to get herd immunity as quickly as possible, and thus to return to the new normal as quickly as possible, hopefully before the election.  In doing so they are risking overloading the medical system, thus a well higher than normal death rate.  Thus far this has not (quite) happened.  The closest would be New York.

The governors of the three states forming alliances on the two coasts and the midwest are favoring a strategy that saves lives.

It may not be quite that simple, but that's the best I can come up with.

(05-08-2020, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sweden never shut down, now its death rate AND its economy are worse than its neighbors
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/7/1943379/-Sweden-never-shut-down-now-their-death-rate-AND-economy-is-worse-than-their-neighbors?detail=emaildkre

Daily Kos Staff
Thursday May 07, 2020 · 11:40 AM PDT

Many conservatives are in love with the idea of Sweden’s approach—no lockdown. They don’t take into consideration that half of Swedes live alone, or that they have a top-notch universal healthcare system. They just think “no lockdown” is a better response to the novel coronavirus pandemic.

If nothing else, Sweden’s alternative response to the virus was … a good control group. And what we’re learning now is that failing to shut down hasn’t just led to more deaths, but—surprise surprise!—it also didn’t prevent its economy from tanking. In fact, Sweden is poised for more economic pain than its neighbors.

Sweden is quickly rising up the ranks of the world leaders in deaths. Here is the world ranking of deaths per million residents, excluding micro-nations:

DEATHS PER MILLION
BELGIUM 726
SPAIN 558
ITALY 495
UK 451
FRANCE 395
NETHERLANDS 309
SWEDEN 301
IRELAND 284
USA 230

Sweden (like the United States) has been quickly moving up this horrid chart and will overtake the Netherlands sometime this weekend for the sixth spot in the world. Meanwhile, its neighbors following more standard shutdown protocols are looking pretty okay:

DEATHS PER MILLION
SWEDEN 301
DENMARK 89
FINLAND 46
NORWAY 40

It’s not even close. So Sweden is starting to wonder whether this all made sense. “[Anders] Tegnell, who has been leading the country's COVID-19 response and previously defended the nation's decision not to impose a lockdown, this week admitted he was ‘not convinced’ the unconventional anti-lockdown strategy was the best option to take," reported Newsweek. Tegnell called the death toll, now surpassing 3,000 dead, a “horrifyingly large number.”

But that sacrifice in blood at least saved the country’s economy, right? Well, that’s the funny part. (And not in a “ha ha” funny way.) “Sweden’s economy is expected to contract between 6.9% and 9.7%,” reported CNBC. Meanwhile, this is what the International Monetary Fund expects from other European countries:

ECONOMIC CONTRACTION
SWEDEN 6.9-9.7%
ITALY 9.1%
SPAIN 8%
FRANCE 7.2%
UK 7%
GERMANY 6.5%
DENMARK 6.5%

In a sane world, this controlled “experiment” would be reason enough for policymakers in the United States to hold back on reopening their states and the country. Instead, those ignoramuses are hell-bent on making the same obvious mistakes, pretending that returning to “business as usual” will rescue the country from economic calamity.

And sure, Republicans are stupid enough to go out and get infected, doing the virus’ dirty work for it. But the economy isn’t going anywhere as long as most people, who are sane and smart, refuse to put themselves in danger for a movie or haircut.

Or, to put it another way: It is impossible for the economy to rebound as long as a deadly virus is killing Americans at a clip of several thousand a day. If you don’t believe that, just look at Sweden.

(05-07-2020, 10:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(05-07-2020, 10:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-07-2020, 07:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You did not look on the worldometer.  On my phone it's harder to post the link, but I have posted it before. Why aren't you checking it? Get with it! Wikipedia depends on volunteers posting from other sources. It is not the best source for immediate data. Why don't you know that? You are smart there's no excuse.

USA has something like 1,292, 000 cases. The 2nd most infected country Spain has 260,000 cases. This virus is nothing less than full indictment of what happens when we turn over our country to trickle down libertarian policies. We are the epicenter of the virus. Republicans make abominable leaders and should pay the price!

What happened to the 2.6 million that you originally stated? You were off by 1.3 million or half.

I corrected myself. You should try it sometime.

(05-08-2020, 04:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 02:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The White House strategy seems to be to get herd immunity as quickly as possible, and thus to return to the new normal as quickly as possible, hopefully before the election.  In doing so they are risking overloading the medical system, thus a well higher than normal death rate.  Thus far this has not (quite) happened.  The closest would be New York.

The governors of the three states forming alliances on the two coasts and the midwest are favoring a strategy that saves lives.

It may not be quite that simple, but that's the best I can come up with.

The White House strategy is/has been to remain ahead of it so to speak.

(05-08-2020, 06:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 04:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 02:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The White House strategy seems to be to get herd immunity as quickly as possible, and thus to return to the new normal as quickly as possible, hopefully before the election.  In doing so they are risking overloading the medical system, thus a well higher than normal death rate.  Thus far this has not (quite) happened.  The closest would be New York.

The governors of the three states forming alliances on the two coasts and the midwest are favoring a strategy that saves lives.

It may not be quite that simple, but that's the best I can come up with.

The White House strategy is/has been to remain ahead of it so to speak.

Then why is their primary action inaction?  Why have they not been pushing for testing, isolation, testing, PPE or especially testing?  They are way behind by the standards of the world, the coastal press, or the three governor's alliances.

(05-08-2020, 06:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's done everything he can do as President at this point. It takes time for multiple systems to adjust. It takes time establish manufacturing that isn't present and time to manufacture goods that aren't present that a LARGE country with 325 million citizens needs to better protect itself during a global pandemic and it takes time to gather information and data about unknown diseases and establish viable/workable guidelines as scientists do their jobs developing new vaccines and effective treatments and so forth in a record amount of time. As I've mentioned to you before, your values don't seem to be as practical or as realistic and as flexible as our values these days.

(05-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 06:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's done everything he can do as President at this point. It takes time for multiple systems to adjust. It takes time establish manufacturing that isn't present and time to manufacture goods that aren't present that a LARGE country with 325 million citizens needs to better protect itself during a global pandemic and it takes time to gather information and data about unknown diseases and establish viable/workable guidelines as scientists do their jobs developing new vaccines and effective treatments and so forth in a record amount of time. As I've mentioned to you before, your values don't seem to be as practical or as realistic and as flexible as our values these days.

He has not used his power to declare testing and PPE critical resources, to force the elites to stop profiteering and start producing.  He has taken no action when others have had quite enough information to act.

(05-08-2020, 07:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Just a reminder -- today is the seventy-fifth anniversary of the formal surrender of the demonic Third Reich, and it would be a day of gigantic festivals of celebration except that a tiny virus has prevented those. Technically the celebration was on the Ninth in the USSR because the Soviets had their own ceremony in Berlin due to logistical difficulties of getting their top generals to France...

It may be ironic that the two German generals who signed the surrenders (Alfred Jodl in Reims and Wihelm Keitel in Berlin) would be tried as major war criminals, be convicted, and be hanged for those crimes. The war was over in Europe, and there has since been no war between the major powers in Europe since them. Fear, yes, due to ideological differences and a missionary desire to establish dominion in the name of the ideology of the main winners. Free-wheeling capitalism and barracks socialism are diametric opposites in economics and politics.

The sort of war that had been commonplace in Europe as one despotic leader got angry and started a war to punish an affront was over. Democracy would become the norm... if abortively behind the Iron Curtain. Fascism died everywhere in Europe except in Spain and Portugal, whose leaders managed to stay out of the war. (It turns out that Churchill bribed Franco in Spain and Salazar in Portugal, which was a good deal for all concerned).

(05-08-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He doesn't have to use his power to declare them as critical when the bulk of the American people know that they're critical. I suppose you could vote to have a bunch removed from the front line (the doctors and nurses and other care givers) people and have them distributed among yourselves instead of them. I mean, it's perfectly legal to do that if feel that your more important than them and those that they're trying not to infect and those who have tested positive that have to wear them along with being self quarantined these days.

(05-08-2020, 09:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He doesn't have to use his power to declare them as critical when the bulk of the American people know that they're critical. I suppose you could vote to have a bunch removed from the front line (the doctors and nurses and other care givers) people and have them distributed among yourselves instead of them. I mean, it's perfectly legal to do that if feel that your more important than them and those that they're trying not to infect and those who have tested positive that have to wear them along with being self quarantined these days.

How do you know you have the disease if most of the carriers are not symptomatic?  Are you happy with people using the same mask for weeks when it is designed for one use?

Never mind.  You are immortal and care only for yourself.

(05-09-2020, 12:00 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump wants to open the economy, but says we don't need testing. He suppresses CDC guidelines and is able to keep CDC officials from testifying before Congress. He has not used the war production act to get masks and tests out to everyone. He has stopped businesses and people from getting the money Congress voted to provide. He has killed 44 000 people so far because of his endless and continued delay. He opposes mail and early voting so we won't be able to vote out this fake incompetent leader. His supreme court did his bidding in Wisconsin to require people to vote at polling places in spite of the danger, and suppressed mail ballots. The Republicans are ruthless in their drive to suppress democracy. If you support the Drumpface, then you are anti-American. Because America is defined by democracy and human rights.

(05-09-2020, 12:15 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: And do you think that a president and a Party that refuses to make tests and masks available and keep money away from those who need it, are going to distribute a vaccine to all when it is developed and approved? NO, they will NOT. If you vote for them, you are voting for indefinite sickness and depression, as well as the permanent removal of democracy, our only viable remedy to this horrid misrule.

(05-08-2020, 04:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 02:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The White House strategy seems to be to get herd immunity as quickly as possible, and thus to return to the new normal as quickly as possible, hopefully before the election.  In doing so they are risking overloading the medical system, thus a well higher than normal death rate.  Thus far this has not (quite) happened.  The closest would be New York.

The governors of the three states forming alliances on the two coasts and the midwest are favoring a strategy that saves lives.

It may not be quite that simple, but that's the best I can come up with.

The White House strategy is/has been to remain ahead of it so to speak.

(05-08-2020, 06:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's done everything he can do as President at this point. It takes time for multiple systems to adjust. It takes time establish manufacturing that isn't present and time to manufacture goods that aren't present that a LARGE country with 325 million citizens needs to better protect itself during a global pandemic and it takes time to gather information and data about unknown diseases and establish viable/workable guidelines as scientists do their jobs developing new vaccines and effective treatments and so forth in a record amount of time. As I've mentioned to you before, your values don't seem to be as practical or as realistic and as flexible as our values these days.

(05-08-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 07:32 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: He has not used his power to declare testing and PPE critical resources, to force the elites to stop profiteering and start producing.  He has taken no action when others have had quite enough information to act.

He doesn't have to use his power to declare them as critical when the bulk of the American people know that they're critical. I suppose you could vote to have a bunch removed from the front line (the doctors and nurses and other care givers) people and have them distributed among yourselves instead of them. I mean, it's perfectly legal to do that if feel that your more important than them and those that they're trying not to infect and those who have tested positive that have to wear them along with being self quarantined these days.