(11-17-2016, 10:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: In 1952 they were rational enough to recognize that the common man had to have a stake in the system. One side of the Red Scare was the need for a consumer society in which such people as assembly-line workers had a stake in the system so that they would not fall for the great menace of the day to capitalism -- Communism. In the 1950s the Communists were largely people who had few connections to the proletariat -- like creative people and academics.

Donald Trump and other right-wingers may pretend to show love for the working class by praising vulgarity and under-education... but that is a con. I'm tempted to believe that many working-class people would find life richer if they turned off the idiot screen and the more witless part of the Internet and instead sampled some great literature and sophisticated music. Such can give some meaning in life even if it does not improve one;s vocational opportunities. It has kept me from suicide on occasions. 

The short times in which I did factory work made me more crave intellectual sophistication. Maybe that makes me a poor match for factory work because certain jobs are made for certain cultures. I have never driven a truck, but you can just imagine what I would listen to on the radio to avoid falling asleep while driving through northern Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio  ... something like this:





Could I convince my fellow truck drivers to listen to this? Probably not! Would I have credibility as a truck driver with other truck drivers? They would probably think me insane, if not snooty!

(11-17-2016, 10:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 04:14 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

Republicans also got control of all three in 1952, for 2 years, but the margins were narrow.

In 1952 they were rational enough to recognize that the common man had to have a stake in the system. One side of the Red Scare was the need for a consumer society in which such people as assembly-line workers had a stake in the system so that they would not fall for the great menace of the day to capitalism -- Communism. In the 1950s the Communists were largely people who had few connections to the proletariat -- like creative people and academics.

Donald Trump and other right-wingers may pretend to show love for the working class by praising vulgarity and under-education... but that is a con. I'm tempted to believe that many working-class people would find life richer if they turned off the idiot screen and the more witless part of the Internet and instead sampled some great literature and sophisticated music. Such can give some meaning in life even if it does not improve one;s vocational opportunities. It has kept me from suicide on occasions. 

The short times in which I did factory work made me more crave intellectual sophistication. Maybe that makes me a poor match for factory work because certain jobs are made for certain cultures. I have never driven a truck, but you can just imagine what I would listen to on the radio to avoid falling asleep while driving through northern Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio  ... something like this:





Could I convince my fellow truck drivers to listen to this? Probably not! Would I have credibility as a truck driver with other truck drivers? They would probably think me insane, if not snooty!

(11-17-2016, 02:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 10:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 04:14 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

Republicans also got control of all three in 1952, for 2 years, but the margins were narrow.

In 1952 they were rational enough to recognize that the common man had to have a stake in the system. One side of the Red Scare was the need for a consumer society in which such people as assembly-line workers had a stake in the system so that they would not fall for the great menace of the day to capitalism -- Communism. In the 1950s the Communists were largely people who had few connections to the proletariat -- like creative people and academics.

Donald Trump and other right-wingers may pretend to show love for the working class by praising vulgarity and under-education... but that is a con. I'm tempted to believe that many working-class people would find life richer if they turned off the idiot screen and the more witless part of the Internet and instead sampled some great literature and sophisticated music. Such can give some meaning in life even if it does not improve one;s vocational opportunities. It has kept me from suicide on occasions. 

The short times in which I did factory work made me more crave intellectual sophistication. Maybe that makes me a poor match for factory work because certain jobs are made for certain cultures. I have never driven a truck, but you can just imagine what I would listen to on the radio to avoid falling asleep while driving through northern Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio  ... something like this:





Could I convince my fellow truck drivers to listen to this? Probably not! Would I have credibility as a truck driver with other truck drivers? They would probably think me insane, if not snooty!

How does a one way thinker like yourself make the mistake of believing and portraying himself as intellectually sophisticated? How does that happen?

(11-17-2016, 02:29 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 11:18 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 10:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: In 1952 they were rational enough to recognize that the common man had to have a stake in the system. One side of the Red Scare was the need for a consumer society in which such people as assembly-line workers had a stake in the system so that they would not fall for the great menace of the day to capitalism -- Communism. In the 1950s the Communists were largely people who had few connections to the proletariat -- like creative people and academics.

Donald Trump and other right-wingers may pretend to show love for the working class by praising vulgarity and under-education... but that is a con. I'm tempted to believe that many working-class people would find life richer if they turned off the idiot screen and the more witless part of the Internet and instead sampled some great literature and sophisticated music. Such can give some meaning in life even if it does not improve one;s vocational opportunities. It has kept me from suicide on occasions. 

The short times in which I did factory work made me more crave intellectual sophistication. Maybe that makes me a poor match for factory work because certain jobs are made for certain cultures. I have never driven a truck, but you can just imagine what I would listen to on the radio to avoid falling asleep while driving through northern Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio  ... something like this:





Could I convince my fellow truck drivers to listen to this? Probably not! Would I have credibility as a truck driver with other truck drivers? They would probably think me insane, if not snooty!

Snooty is likely enough.

I have a number of hobbies and interests other than visiting this forum.  I get out a few times a week for fantasy role playing games.  The computer I'm typing this on also drives a MIDI studio, with a keyboard, synth and mixer attached.  My other internet forum is Patriots Planet, dedicated to the NFL football team.  I still own the martial arts studio where I once studied, the building at least.  It's use as a studio is essentially forgotten.

Taking pride in one's interests is fine.  Scorning someone else's interests, less so.  Scorning the person because of that interest?  It is typical for a follower of classical music to have a low opinion of country and western, but is that an excuse to scorn the person as opposed to the music?  My sisters are both into quilting, which isn't my thing, but I'm not going to imply in any way that that isn't a fine thing.  (My bed is covered with a quilt made up from the T-shirts I wore in my early adulthood, for example.  Warm memories.)  Does it in any way diminish a man to follow the Sooners rather than the magnificent Patriots?

It's been said that part of the Trump backlash is urban folk laughing at and dismissing the rural folk as inferior in so many ways.  Well, many live in a simpler environment.  Simpler values and perspectives might still work fine there, while the faster pace and complexity of urban live makes for a different sort of person.  It might be hard not to judge.  It might be prudent not to rub in one's less favorable judgments.

Well said

(11-17-2016, 05:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is a terrible orange menace coming over the horizon, a threat to all our livelihoods and fortunes. A threat to our health, well-being and sanity. Trumpzilla is his name. Trumpzilla is coming; prepare and fight!

Obama Wrote:In an age of social media where so many people are getting their information in sound bites and snippets off their phones, if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then we have problems," he said. "If people, whether they're conservative, liberal, left or right, are unwilling to compromise and engage in the democratic process and are taking absolutist views and demonizing opponents, then democracy will break down.

(11-18-2016, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 05:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is a terrible orange menace coming over the horizon, a threat to all our livelihoods and fortunes. A threat to our health, well-being and sanity. Trumpzilla is his name. Trumpzilla is coming; prepare and fight!

Obama Wrote:In an age of social media where so many people are getting their information in sound bites and snippets off their phones, if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then we have problems," he said. "If people, whether they're conservative, liberal, left or right, are unwilling to compromise and engage in the democratic process and are taking absolutist views and demonizing opponents, then democracy will break down.

I wonder if this is what Obama meant by 'demonizing'?

(11-18-2016, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 05:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is a terrible orange menace coming over the horizon, a threat to all our livelihoods and fortunes. A threat to our health, well-being and sanity. Trumpzilla is his name. Trumpzilla is coming; prepare and fight!

Obama Wrote:In an age of social media where so many people are getting their information in sound bites and snippets off their phones, if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then we have problems," he said. "If people, whether they're conservative, liberal, left or right, are unwilling to compromise and engage in the democratic process and are taking absolutist views and demonizing opponents, then democracy will break down.

I wonder if this is what Obama meant by 'demonizing'?

(11-18-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-18-2016, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-17-2016, 05:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is a terrible orange menace coming over the horizon, a threat to all our livelihoods and fortunes. A threat to our health, well-being and sanity. Trumpzilla is his name. Trumpzilla is coming; prepare and fight!

Obama Wrote:In an age of social media where so many people are getting their information in sound bites and snippets off their phones, if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then we have problems," he said. "If people, whether they're conservative, liberal, left or right, are unwilling to compromise and engage in the democratic process and are taking absolutist views and demonizing opponents, then democracy will break down.

I wonder if this is what Obama meant by 'demonizing'?

Maybe it's just pointing out what Trump IS.

His war on the environment alone makes him a monster. Do you want him to wipe out all the bees? Atty. Gen Sessions, you really think that's not demonic?

Are you aware, that "Trumpzilla" is the name that Trump supporters chose for him?

(11-19-2016, 02:31 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Maybe the problem is the interaction and stalemate between the two parties rather than just one party.  We have a dysfunctional government.  A good sized part of the problem is less interest in the good of the people and good government, more interest in confrontation and making the other guys look bad.  Right now, I anticipate an ugly two years followed by an ugly set of mid term elections for the Republicans.  Yes, it is bad that they are getting their innings, but while the culture is centering on extreme partisan thinking, I'm doubtful that we are going to break the pattern of a few terms of Democratic White Houses without filibuster resistant congresses followed by Republicans all over the place and disaster.

Quote:The regeneracy would require a consensus, and a consensus isn't coming without a willingness to respect and listen.  Feeding the hate won't get it done.

Steve Bannon Wrote:Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when they (liberals) get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing.

CNN Wrote:Briebart News, which Bannon has been associated with since its start in 2007, has been vehemently pro-Trump throughout his presidential campaign, and is also known for pushing nationalist policy positions, as well as conspiracy theories, and has been criticized as being racist, sexist and anti-Semitic.

CNN Wrote:"He gets it; he gets it intuitively," Bannon said about Trump. "You have probably the greatest orator since William Jennings Bryan, coupled with an economic populist message and two political parties that are so owned by the donors that they don't speak to their audience."

He said he always knew that former Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton would lose the election.

"I knew that she couldn't close," he said. "They outspent us 10 to one, had 10 times more people and had all the media with them, but I kept saying it doesn't matter, they got it all wrong, we've got this locked."

(11-19-2016, 08:40 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: We've had a surplus of posts from the blue perspective.  Perhaps a few words from the forces of evil are appropriate.  From CNN, Steve Bannon of Briebart and the Trump Administration speaks up, saying Darkness is Good.  Note, the opinions stated in the article are those of Steve Bannon, and do not reflect the opinions of this poster.

Steve Bannon Wrote:Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when they (liberals) get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing.

CNN Wrote:Briebart News, which Bannon has been associated with since its start in 2007, has been vehemently pro-Trump throughout his presidential campaign, and is also known for pushing nationalist policy positions, as well as conspiracy theories, and has been criticized as being racist, sexist and anti-Semitic.

CNN Wrote:"He gets it; he gets it intuitively," Bannon said about Trump. "You have probably the greatest orator since William Jennings Bryan, coupled with an economic populist message and two political parties that are so owned by the donors that they don't speak to their audience."

He said he always knew that former Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton would lose the election.

"I knew that she couldn't close," he said. "They outspent us 10 to one, had 10 times more people and had all the media with them, but I kept saying it doesn't matter, they got it all wrong, we've got this locked."

Now, I'm no fan of this guy nor his way of looking at things, but he makes a few points here.  If the Democrats don't do a lot more listening, if they aren't aware of or care about what much of America is thinking, they'll continue to have problems.

(11-19-2016, 03:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a good point, but I think the main thing Democratic candidates need to do, besides listening (which Hillary is good at), is speaking well (like the "greatest orator since William Jennings Bryan" did); or persuading welll. 

(11-19-2016, 03:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Much of Americans' thinking today is foolish, and works against their own interests. That's just the way it is; it will do us no good to ignore that fact. They need to be persuaded, as far as possible, to do what's in their real interests. And they need to ignore those who say "that's talking down to them." Everyone ought to be able to understand that trickle-down economics is a failure. Everyone. There is no excuse for anyone, anywhere not to know that. And to say that it's a failure, and understand that people need to be persuaded that it's a failure, is not to hold oneself above anyone. It's all elementary.

So, they've now been persuaded by Trump that the part of trickle-down economics/laissez faire entitled "free trade" is a failure. Good. Hey, that's a start!

(11-19-2016, 05:04 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I'm not all that impressed by Trump as a speaker.  Perhaps if you're already convinced in what he's saying, but to me he depends altogether too much on repeated lies being accepted by an unquestioning audience.

No doubt Hillary's lesser public speaking ability hurt her.  I was hoping that surrogates like Michelle, Obama and her husband could cover it, but no...  The Democrats need a charismatic voice to lead their message.

Quote:A lot of truth in the above.  There might be a limited number of points to be made.  Making them might well require respecting the audience, not talking down, hammering down persistent lies, and finding a good speaker or three.

Major points to be pounded?

Trump isn't going to drain the swamp.  He's a swamp monster.  This is becoming clear by the number of lobbyists he is bringing into the White House.  A persistent, truthful and verifiable reporting of how the Republicans favor special interests ought to be maintained.  Every bill they push through congress, every executive action favoring the robber barons, ought to be clearly and truthfully reported.

Borrow and spend trickle down has always failed.  I don't know if you caught the simplistic economic model I proposed to Kinser, but the bottom line is that there is too much transfer of capitol from Main Street to Easy Street through both tax policy and dividends.  The counter argument I've most often seen blames FDR for Hoover's crash and blames Obama for Bush 43's.  When the Republicans mess up big time, it takes more than four years of Democratic rule to fully recover.  We've seen that pattern through the unravellings.  The Republicans blow things up, the Democrats get things more or less going again while still hobbled by a lack of control of Congress, then the People get impatient by the slow pace of the recovery.  They give control back to the Republicans, and cause another disaster.  That pattern has to be made clear and broken.

The race, gender and cultural divisions are problems too.  I'm not sure how to address this in a respectful way without talking down and while showing respect for the opposing point of view.  I don't see all Republicans as deplorable, though there are enough deplorables to really really matter.  The southern strategy has long been a quiet part of their base strategy, but now Trump seems to be bringing it out in the open.  How does one appeal to any true 'family values' folk to reject the uglier strain of Trump's schtick?  I have trouble treating racists with respect, without scorn, without talking down.  While in a lot of ways I think your strident insulting approach isn't productive, in this area it is all too easy for me to join you.

On campaign finance, Trump made much about Hillary's giving talks to Wall Street audiences and taking lots of money from super pacs.  I'd like to see the Democrats widely adapt Bernie's approach to financing campaigns.  It is not sufficient just to promote the interests of the People over the robber barons, one has to avoid the appearance of being beholden to the robber barons.  While I see the Clinton Foundation as doing good work while Trump's use of his foundation was criminal, even the appearance of corruption when manipulated by expert liars can hurt.  In these days of fake news and submerging truth with repeated lies, charities such as the Clinton Foundation ought to be run by retired politicians rather than active ones.

I'm sure there are other issues and areas requiring similar treatment.  I guess my concern is still saying these things with enough respect and fact, with as little talking down as possible.  Values lock is still there.  No one wants to change what they believe.  Thus, the temptation to increase the volume and emotional intensity is tremendous.  Still, it is easily possible by overdoing the brazen attitude and emotional volume to cause them to tune out.

I can completely understand where the authors of all these anti Trump videos are coming from.  Still, remember the thought a lot of Democrats were feeling about the 'mistake' in Trump's end game?  He was focusing on his base and not reaching out to the wider audience he needed to win?  With hindsight, who was it that made that mistake?