(03-30-2020, 08:31 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(03-30-2020, 04:57 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-30-2020, 03:12 PM)gabrielle Wrote: I'm not sure there is any "return to normalcy" after this.  Covid 19 has caused the bottom to drop out from underneath us.  Many in this country don't seem to realize how dire things really are, we are like cartoon characters briefly suspended in air before we fall.  The only thing that might save us would be drastic measures such as what Sanders proposes (and Biden continues to waffle about), and I'm not even sure if that will be enough.  I hope I'm wrong.  Please God let me be wrong.

From a health perspective, this is no worse than the Spanish Flu in 1918.  What's worse is the failure of leadership to follow the lessons of the past, and to hold the miscreants responsible for doing, well, nothing much.  Trump may parlay this to a second term!  That's simply astounding, except for the milquetoast response from the Dems.  

If Bernie had a shot at the nomination (and that's dead-dead-dead), then taking a principled stand is exactly the right thing for him to do.  He doesn't.  Biden can't or won't step up, and Cuomo, who is, can't be the voice for the party. For some reason, the Dems are just flaccid all around -- and I include Nancy Pelosi on that list.  It's Silent generation behavior -- as wrong for a 4T as you can get.  Disgusting.

It's not merely taking a principled stand at this point, it's trying to save the country.  Trying to save lives.  3.3 million people filed unemployment last week.  Many of them are also losing their health insurance at a critical time.  And Biden has just announced that the pandemic crisis has not changed his mind about single payer.  This is not going to work.  And that will become increasingly obvious in the next few weeks.

Why is it that the Siilents, old and increasingly feeble as they are, are still in prominent positions of power?  Why haven't the younger generations stepped up to the plate (in a meaningful way--not the mad king and his circle of sycophants).

(03-30-2020, 08:31 PM)gabrielle Wrote: It's not merely taking a principled stand at this point, it's trying to save the country.  Trying to save lives.  3.3 million people filed unemployment last week.  Many of them are also losing their health insurance at a critical time.  And Biden has just announced that the pandemic crisis has not changed his mind about single payer.  This is not going to work.  And that will become increasingly obvious in the next few weeks.

Why is it that the Siilents, old and increasingly feeble as they are, are still in prominent positions of power?  Why haven't the younger generations stepped up to the plate (in a meaningful way--not the mad king and his circle of sycophants).

(03-30-2020, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-30-2020, 12:56 PM)David Horn Wrote: Here's how I see the options:

1. All the Dems, including Bernie and his followers, unite behind Biden and he wins.  We have a quiet "return to normalcy" that satisfies no one, and the left and center battle it out again in 2024
   
2. All the Dems, including Bernie and his followers, unite behind Biden and he loses. Biden will be the last centrist this cycle
   
3. Dissension reigns in the Democratic Party, but Biden wins.  The Bernie Bros will never be taken seriously again, and the left will be a long time regrouping.
   
4. Dissension reigns in the Democratic Party and Biden loses. The Democrats will come apart at the seams, unless Bernie does a huge mea culpa -- a highly unlikely event.
   

Pick your poison.  In order of preference, Ill go for 1, 3, 2, 4.  I might chose differently if the circumstances were different, but we can't have Trump for 8.

I don't think those options are very likely, or desirable. Fun to discuss though. Regarding them:

#1 is closest to likely, I guess. But as gabrielle said, I don't think a return to normalcy is possible now. The 4T continues and so do its crises and turmoil. The left will pressure Biden to act, if he's elected. He has bent a bit to Bernie's challenge, which may or may not be a good sign. But if Bernie's Revolution keeps the pressure up on him, he may bend some more. I think the left and center will battle it out for the foreseeable future, no matter who wins. But how it shapes up depends entirely on how good the candidates are, as candidates. And also on "whose turn it is."

Eric Wrote:#2. Sadly, when Democratic centrists lose, centrists can still be around and do well.

Eric Wrote:#3 is not true because of what I said in #1. The problems remain and arouse activism. The Left don't need to regroup, they are already well organized. I don't see a better left wing candidate than Bernie, unless you see Sherrod Brown as left wing.

Eric Wrote:#4 I doubt Bernie has anything to mea culpa about. If Biden loses, Trump will begin to abuse his power even more and lose popularity, and may be impeached and even removed. In this situation, the Democrats will not come apart but will unite and win in 2024, after a big midterm victory in 2022. The candidate in 2024 will be closer to the center than Bernie, because that's who is out there who has any chance according to the horoscope scores. AOC for example will never even get close.

Eric Wrote:A breakup of the major parties is possible, but the Democrats, even though they have a left wing that splits off, will not come apart as long as the Republicans do not come apart.

(03-31-2020, 11:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-30-2020, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-30-2020, 12:56 PM)David Horn Wrote: Here's how I see the options:

1. All the Dems, including Bernie and his followers, unite behind Biden and he wins.  We have a quiet "return to normalcy" that satisfies no one, and the left and center battle it out again in 2024
   
2. All the Dems, including Bernie and his followers, unite behind Biden and he loses. Biden will be the last centrist this cycle
   
3. Dissension reigns in the Democratic Party, but Biden wins.  The Bernie Bros will never be taken seriously again, and the left will be a long time regrouping.
   
4. Dissension reigns in the Democratic Party and Biden loses. The Democrats will come apart at the seams, unless Bernie does a huge mea culpa -- a highly unlikely event.
   

Pick your poison.  In order of preference, Ill go for 1, 3, 2, 4.  I might chose differently if the circumstances were different, but we can't have Trump for 8.

I don't think those options are very likely, or desirable. Fun to discuss though. Regarding them:

#1 is closest to likely, I guess. But as gabrielle said, I don't think a return to normalcy is possible now. The 4T continues and so do its crises and turmoil. The left will pressure Biden to act, if he's elected. He has bent a bit to Bernie's challenge, which may or may not be a good sign. But if Bernie's Revolution keeps the pressure up on him, he may bend some more. I think the left and center will battle it out for the foreseeable future, no matter who wins. But how it shapes up depends entirely on how good the candidates are, as candidates. And also on "whose turn it is."

Since you mentioned it as well, I should note that "return to normalcy" was in quotes for a reason.  No, Uncle Joe can never be more than a place holder in a Crisis, so he'll either bow out after one term (which I find likely) or he'll get challenged.   So he picks to run with him will determine how 2024 actually goes.  In any case, both factions will be in it.

Quote:

Eric Wrote:#2. Sadly, when Democratic centrists lose, centrists can still be around and do well.

After two hand-picked insiders lose to Donald Trump, the validity of that wing of the party will be toast.  I can't say who will step up, but it won't be a member of the establishment.

Quote:

Eric Wrote:#3 is not true because of what I said in #1. The problems remain and arouse activism. The Left don't need to regroup, they are already well organized. I don't see a better left wing candidate than Bernie, unless you see Sherrod Brown as left wing.

If Bernie and the Bernie Bros try to deep-six Biden and they miss, the soon-to-be 80-year old leader will be done … and so will they.  In 2024, to say nothing of 2028, Bernie will be too old, and so will EW.  That means a new generation of leaders will have to emerge, run and win primaries. 2028 is about as soon as that's possible, under this scenario, but if Biden does a successful hand-off to his running mate, it may be 2032.

Quote:

Eric Wrote:#4 I doubt Bernie has anything to mea culpa about. If Biden loses, Trump will begin to abuse his power even more and lose popularity, and may be impeached and even removed. In this situation, the Democrats will not come apart but will unite and win in 2024, after a big midterm victory in 2022. The candidate in 2024 will be closer to the center than Bernie, because that's who is out there who has any chance according to the horoscope scores. AOC for example will never even get close.

Again, this is based on Bernie and his Bros undermining Biden.  A second Trump term blamed on Bernie, and it will be under these circumstances, will call for lots of contrition -- not a Bernie long suit.  That might split the party, or simply weaken it.

Quote:

Eric Wrote:A breakup of the major parties is possible, but the Democrats, even though they have a left wing that splits off, will not come apart as long as the Republicans do not come apart.

If the left departs for (insert the party that they join or create), the Dems will have a hard time being anything more than equivalent of the British Liberal Party … once dominant and proud and by then, an after thought.

(03-31-2020, 11:20 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-30-2020, 08:31 PM)gabrielle Wrote: It's not merely taking a principled stand at this point, it's trying to save the country.  Trying to save lives.  3.3 million people filed unemployment last week.  Many of them are also losing their health insurance at a critical time.  And Biden has just announced that the pandemic crisis has not changed his mind about single payer.  This is not going to work.  And that will become increasingly obvious in the next few weeks.

Why is it that the Siilents, old and increasingly feeble as they are, are still in prominent positions of power?  Why haven't the younger generations stepped up to the plate (in a meaningful way--not the mad king and his circle of sycophants).

Well, the mad king is a Boomer; the Silents are all Dems.  And there seems to be some aura of high-regard that circles Nancy Pelosi, so she's in for the duration.  But let's be honest about Bernie too.  He's great in the Grey Champion role, but he has no business being the leader of the free world.  It's hard to say who does at this point.  This needs to pass to someone who clicks with the young, but isn't geriatric him/herself. EW could have been that person, but her candidacy fell flat and stayed that way.  Most of the others are either too centrist for the times or need to wait for the times to need them (Pete Buttigieg being the prime example -- he'll be a great 1T President).

I would vote for Cuomo.  He's scrapper who hates Trump to the marrow of his bones. Winning is almost everything this time, but the win has to mean something too.  AT least Cuomo is able to say that people come first without it sounding like a commercial.

(03-31-2020, 02:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As long as the current right-wing evil fanatic Republican Party remains united, it will be too evil for the Democrats to break up, aside from the usual departures that happen anyway.

(03-31-2020, 05:48 PM)TheNomad Wrote: There are waves of younger people waiting to actually solve the emerging problems barely understood by the Ancients.  We should find a way to force them into retirement lest these struggles of the past decades visit us with more doom.

(03-31-2020, 05:48 PM)TheNomad Wrote: No one wants to "pick a poison" anymore.  As for the person wondering why there are WAY too many old people and they had said "why aren't the younger stepping up" these OLDER have a stranglehold on positions of power.

They need to step down/away simply to make room for younger people.  It isn't that younger generations do not have the will or ability to do these things, just the opposite.  They are being blockaded out by the ruffians above who earnestly believe these younger folks are not able or willing to do what is necessary.

This, even when most of these older generations in power barely know what is the Internet except their phone pushes a button with an icon.  And their younger staff trains them on such things.

Again, it is my personal belief older folks in power cannot let go of their stranglehold because they are inherently dialed into a Values-Driven crusade.  They cannot give up their authority because, to them, doing so is dereliction and abandonment of whatever thing god or the gods or their conscience or their values won't allow.  

There are waves of younger people waiting to actually solve the emerging problems barely understood by the Ancients.  We should find a way to force them into retirement lest these struggles of the past decades visit us with more doom.

(03-31-2020, 09:30 PM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-31-2020, 05:48 PM)TheNomad Wrote: No one wants to "pick a poison" anymore.  As for the person wondering why there are WAY too many old people and they had said "why aren't the younger stepping up" these OLDER have a stranglehold on positions of power.

They need to step down/away simply to make room for younger people.  It isn't that younger generations do not have the will or ability to do these things, just the opposite.  They are being blockaded out by the ruffians above who earnestly believe these younger folks are not able or willing to do what is necessary.

This, even when most of these older generations in power barely know what is the Internet except their phone pushes a button with an icon.  And their younger staff trains them on such things.

Again, it is my personal belief older folks in power cannot let go of their stranglehold because they are inherently dialed into a Values-Driven crusade.  They cannot give up their authority because, to them, doing so is dereliction and abandonment of whatever thing god or the gods or their conscience or their values won't allow.  

There are waves of younger people waiting to actually solve the emerging problems barely understood by the Ancients.  We should find a way to force them into retirement lest these struggles of the past decades visit us with more doom.

But there are many examples of when one may need to “pick a poison”. I am at one such crossroads right now. My car is a 2009 model with over 250k miles.  Over the past four years or so I have had to incur some quite expensive repair bills; the alternative being getting a new or more recent model car and be locked into a hefty mandatory payment for the next several years, in addition to higher insurance rates. When my dad was alive he would have definitely advised for the latter option. A classic “pick your poison “ situation if there ever was one. Know I will eventually have to succumb to the latter but hope to delay it as long as possible.

(03-31-2020, 06:51 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Same with values.  Some value the economy, and are minimizing the threat of the virus.  They see with their bank accounts and live in their dream worlds.  Some value people, and are asking why the federal government and some states are not taking action.  This is red and blue all over, whether you accept the science or create pleasant daydreams of there not existing any threats that a small government cannot handle.

(04-04-2020, 07:00 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-31-2020, 06:51 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Same with values.  Some value the economy, and are minimizing the threat of the virus.  They see with their bank accounts and live in their dream worlds.  Some value people, and are asking why the federal government and some states are not taking action.  This is red and blue all over, whether you accept the science or create pleasant daydreams of there not existing any threats that a small government cannot handle.

Well, it started that way.  Some wanted to optimize the economy, others work towards saving lives.  As time goes on, the two are looking the same.  We are not going to be able to push the restart button on the economy until the curve is flattened.  If everybody isolates at once, the numbers of cases are minimized and the precautions can be relaxed.

There are a lot of folks resisting the precautions.  I have spoken of some mothers dropping kids as usual to hang out at the closed mall.  I bumped into another Facebook entry that some mothers are holding sleepovers for the kids.  That is another way that one contaminated family results in many contaminated families.  Fighting the precautions is just leading to the worst of both worlds, deaths and an extended economic shutdown.