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+---- Thread: The Coronavirus (/thread-6002.html)
RE: The Coronavirus - Kinser79 - 05-15-2020
Normally I wouldn't bother responding to PBR, doing so is usually pointless. However there are a few issues that need to be addressed.
(05-15-2020, 02:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:myself Wrote:Perhaps it is time for the perspective of someone who is a racial minority. I suggest myself.
I think in this instance that Classic and the Blue Boomer Libtards on this board want essentially the same thing. The problem is that the Libtards being both Boomers and thus stuck in a time warp that is at least 20 years out of date and being tarded...hence why I call them Libtards...fail to see their own racial bigotry.
I may be twenty or more years behind the times on technology and pop culture. Technology that I see goes mostly into entertainment, and entertainment is for people who have nothing better to do. Pop culture? I largely outgrew it when I was in my teens.
Not at all what I meant. You are as usual so far off the mark here you might as well be on the other side of the planet. In general Boomers are politically speaking in a time warp. I too could care less about what passes for pop culture. As for technology I adopt what seems useful and ignore the rest.
As for entertainment, that seems to be a human need to a degree. It matters not if it comes in the form of a video game, a book or going to a play. When not doing vital life things people need distractions from their own internal monologue. This of course assumes one has one of those, and honestly I'm not sure you do PBR. Or if you do, you give it far too much attention, which can be, and often is a worse outcome.
Quote:Human nature seems to change far more slowly, which explains why Plato and Freud could both offer a tripartite division of human nature, why (with reservations) the ancient moral wisdom is mostly valid, and the normal rules of getting along with people usually remain valid.
I am not entirely convinced that there is such a thing as human nature. That remains to be proven to me.
I would argue that ancient wisdom (such as it exists) is wise because it has stood the test of time for most people, in most places, and for most circumstances. Things become traditional not because someone long ago decided to make it a tradition, but rather because it works, or at least used to work and is retained even though the situation it worked for may now be irrelevant.
Quote:There are people to avoid, and I well know that for some people I am one of them.
I wouldn't say you are "to be avoided" by me, simply put in general you simply aren't worth my time.
Quote:But yes, such a word as "libtard" is not the sort of word that you want to say if you don't want the door slamming on your face as if you are a cold-calling door-to-door salesman selling meat to a vegetarian.
You are assuming that I'm even attempting to sell my point of view to you blue boomers. I'm not. Quite frankly I could care less what you think because I simply don't care and view that particular group as largely irrelevant except when they get in my way. Rather I have found far more fertile ground on the right.
Quote:Quote:
Indeed as a black person I have found nothing more racist than what George W. Bush called the "soft bigotry of low expectations". The problem among black people these days is not that they are barred from university or employment or even financial assistance. Rather the problem is that a certain proportion of those things is reserved especially for them. Furthermore, those blacks that get those reserved spots are often the scions of the black bourgeoisie and their taking of those spots (which if we do not adhere to the idea that someone is black therefore they must be incapable of obtaining said education [or whatever] without a set aside) means that they are taking a spot that ideally was intended to be taken up by someone of a lower economic station regardless their race.
In my experience we white middle class types do practically nothing for poor whites. We often ridicule poor whites especially from the Mountain South and related areas as "hillbillies", "peckerwoods", "crackers", "rednecks"... I have never experienced that myself, so I don't know how it feels.
By and large, and as an outside observer here, I would say that Whites in general (regardless of class) are less racially aware and awake than Blacks, Latinos and Asians. Some would argue this is because they are the racial majority in this country or were at least so traditionally. Personally having never been white myself I cannot be sure if that is the case, and I don't think I could really get an honest opinion about this from my husband.
This being said, some of my absolute best friends are these hillbillies, peckerwoods, crackers and rednecks. But then again I live in the South and prefer a rural lifestyle anyway.
Quote:The black bourgeoisie does far more for poor blacks who show promise.
The black bourgeoisie is far more racially aware than the white bourgeoisie. As a result, finding those blacks who show the most promise and assisting them elevates the race as a whole. This is a very old trend. Indeed it is precisely the action advocated by Booker T. Washington.
Booker T. Washington Wrote:Few things can help an individual more than to place responsibility on him, and to let him know that you trust him.
Quote:But know well: the black bourgeoisie does as well as possible at preparing their kids to be chips off the old block. That is no different than skilled workers edging their kids toward the skilled trades.
Yes, and? I would say that most parents, or at least good ones, want their child to have a life at least as prosperous, if not more so than their own.
Quote:It is up to parents, irrespective of origin, to promote learning among their children and to insist upon maximal rigor in K-12 education
In my experience there is a vast difference between learning and education. I have met people with PHD's that I wouldn't trust to cross the street and high school drop outs that I trust to run my business in my absence. (mind you I'm not absent much or often of course)
Quote:There is not and has never been a classless society.
True but also irrelevant. A "classless society" is impossible without reducing everyone in that society to abject poverty given the uneven distribution of talent and ability. Rather a "good" and "just" society should seek instead to make available to those who are able and talented to opportunities to advance themselves. Once it has done so it is up to the individual to seize those opportunities.
I shan't bother arguing further on our individual circumstances as I've said elsewhere that I have seized those opportunities that presented themselves to me, where you PBR have not.
Quote:Quote:The racial politics coming from the left for decades has been that blacks and other persons of color are incapable of obtaining education, job opportunities and even loans without crumb handouts from the Democratic party. Anyone who actually thinks about this for more than five seconds actually realizes what this left is saying, and it rings loud and clear for someone is very conscious of his racial identity. The Democrats have said and been saying since the 1960s at least "Because you are a Nigger, you need thus and so hand out from us and we of course need your vote. Something for something, because we understand your ignorant nigger ass could never understand how to look up the Latin Quid Pro Quo."
Of course we all know the loving kindness that the Hard Right has for the poor in a society in which owners, executives, landlords, shysters, and loansharks are the kings. The Hard Rights treats all low proles badly irrespective of ethnicity and religion. We have a President who ridicules learning. This said, if social mobility no longer exists, then learning is strictly an elite practice that must price out multitudes.
We aren't talking about the "hard right", whatever that is supposed to mean. We are talking about the racial politics of the Left here. Having been both on the left and the right I can say that the Right is largely unconcerned with racial politics of any stripe and more concerned with class politics. Even the so-called alt-right, national socialists and their ilk are all creatures of the left. Is the right more likely to be composed of the haves rather than the have-nots? Certainly. In order to be conservative (beyond some vague sense of social conservationism) one would have to have something worthy of being conserved. However, that is not my point and never has been here.
My point is, to put it bluntly, that the left seeks to teach people that because they are this race or that race, or this sex, or that sex or what have you that they are either especially privileged or degraded because of that status. To not see that for the racism, sexism and homophobia it is is to blind oneself to the reality of what racism, sexism and homophobia are.
Booker T. Washington Wrote:No greater injury can be done to any youth than to let him feel that because he belongs to this or that race he will be advanced in life regardless of his own merits or efforts.
Quote:Quote:Given the choice between that, and the Klan, I'll take the Klan any day of the week. Their racism is naked and understood by even the most ignorant of persons. Conversely the Soft Bigotry requires thought and reading between the lines.
NO YOU WON'T!
I don't think you are qualified to say what I will and won't do, say or think PBR. You aren't my Massa and THIS NIGGER left the plantation quite a few years ago.
I also don't care what you think the Klan want to do, or would do if they could. They can't and they never will be able to again. We've already had a state of affairs akin to Nazi Germany in this country. It was called the Jim Crow South and it was dominated by the DEMOCRATIC Party. And when the Nazis were writing their racial laws what laws did they use? Jim Crow laws. Which were written by legislators from which party? Why the Democratic one. Leopards are not known for changing their spots.
I also won't bother to address your psudohistory of the Democratic Party either. People can watch Dinesh D'Souza's movies and read his books for themselves. Much like they can read your swill for themselves.
And for the record I voted for Obama twice. Not because he is half-black, but because John McCain picked a crazy person as his running mate, and Mitt Romney was just too fucking weird.
RE: The Coronavirus - Kinser79 - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 05:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(05-15-2020, 04:47 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote:(05-13-2020, 02:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The gun-toting demonstrators against necessary precautions taken for the coronavirus do not represent the people.
People don't protest against the lockdowns because they love big guns and want Reagan back. People are sick and tired of staying at home and spending all the day looking at screens. People are sick and tired of not being able to participate in a live music event, or kiss a cousin's cheek to say hello. People are also scared of what's happening to the economy, both in the UK and the USA.
Also the precautions are mostly necessary to protect old people, because young and middle aged people rarely die of Covid. Why didn't the government simply isolate old people, and let the rest enjoy normal life? Maybe this would be the case if the Covid pandemic happened in 2005, or 1995, or 1985.
Some people would rather kill others than be inconvenienced. Some people value their own money over other’s lives. Such people see an act intended to save lives as tyranny. Some people would sit on a life saving report in order to look better politically. Some people will ignore a professional piece of advice for the good of the community out of selfish interest.
All of that’s less a moral judgement than a statement of fact. You can read a moral judgement in it if you wish. The question is what is to be done of it.
After the trigger, people are supposed to reject the unravelling hedonism and selfishness and sacrifice for the good of the common community. Some are not willing to do that. Community pressure to force it is sometimes required. This trip around, more so than others.
Or some people would rather work for a living than get a government ration. Or they value having their own money over their own life. I know I do, I work with the public every day and have since this 'pandemic' started.
There is no moral judgement here, there are only two sides here: Those who want to get back to living their lives on their terms and those who want to virtue signal about those people living their lives on their own terms.
History has a habit of bypassing the virtue signalers. As I said elsewhere in five or so years the Carona Karens will be openly mocked because those who simply want to get on with life will be victorious.
Edited to Add: And don't even get me started with all the morons who demand to "speak with my manager" at my restaurant. They always love it when I say "Okay but he won't give you what you want either because I'm the owner and therefore his boss."
RE: The Coronavirus - Bob Butler 54 - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 06:41 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Or some people would rather work for a living than get a government ration. Or they value having their own money over their own life. I know I do, I work with the public every day and have since this 'pandemic' started.
There is no moral judgement here, there are only two sides here: Those who want to get back to living their lives on their terms and those who want to virtue signal about those people living their lives on their own terms.
History has a habit of bypassing the virtue signalers. As I said elsewhere in five or so years the Carona Karens will be openly mocked because those who simply want to get on with life will be victorious.
There are those who want to turn the turnings backwards, to go back to what we once were. Unlikely. If you want to run by unravelling selfishness and hedonism during a crisis, you are going to be out of step. You can try to run against the will of most of the people, but if you do so you are likely to get trampled. The vague principles that hold true during three plus turnings don't hold true in a crisis heart.
You have always clung to the elites, whether it be the Communist Party or your father. This has obvious advantages most of the time. Not just now. You might want to run with the people for a little while.
RE: The Coronavirus - Kinser79 - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 06:50 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(05-15-2020, 06:41 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Or some people would rather work for a living than get a government ration. Or they value having their own money over their own life. I know I do, I work with the public every day and have since this 'pandemic' started.
There is no moral judgement here, there are only two sides here: Those who want to get back to living their lives on their terms and those who want to virtue signal about those people living their lives on their own terms.
History has a habit of bypassing the virtue signalers. As I said elsewhere in five or so years the Carona Karens will be openly mocked because those who simply want to get on with life will be victorious.
There are those who want to turn the turnings backwards, to go back to what we once were. Unlikely. If you want to run by unravelling selfishness and hedonism during a crisis, you are going to be out of step. You can try to run against the will of most of the people, but if you do so you are likely to get trampled. The vague principles that hold true during three plus turnings don't hold true in a crisis heart.
I would hardly call wanting to get back to work 'hedonism' unless the meaning of that word has suddenly changed without my noticing it.
Edit to Add: I am fortunate in that coffee and donuts are considered essential in Florida, and my Son's job never shut down since he doesn't deal with the public and buildings still need their tile work finished. My husband on the other hand has been on furlough since March and were it not for my son stepping up to help with bills we would be much much worse off than we are.
RE: The Coronavirus - Kinser79 - 05-15-2020
Felt this video is relevant.
RE: The Coronavirus - Bob Butler 54 - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 06:58 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:
Felt this video is relevant.
I consider myself pretty blue with respect to the virus. I mean, nothing that Rachel Maddow and Governor Cumo said last night made me want to double check. And yet, with this guy, I didn't recognize myself at all. His idea of what the blue mind set was simply didn't touch me. That made me believe his mind set was made in la la land. His news source would be mostly lies, and his beliefs thus bogus.
If you find the video at all relevant, you are likely of the same level of not reality.
RE: The Coronavirus - Kinser79 - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 07:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(05-15-2020, 06:58 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:
Felt this video is relevant.
I consider myself pretty blue with respect to the virus. I mean, nothing that Rachel Maddow and Governor Cumo said last night made me want to double check. And yet, with this guy, I didn't recognize myself at all. His idea of what the blue mind set was simply didn't touch me. That made me believe his mind set was made in la la land. His news source would be mostly lies, and his beliefs thus bogus.
If you find the video at all relevant, you are likely of the same level of not reality.
Or I'm simply not Blue, which neither is Styx. That being said, I would check everything Maddow says and certainly Cuomo. I wouldn't trust either as far as I could throw them.
Both of us are in the Libertarian camp. Though I would say I'm in the line of Nationalist Libertarianism where as Styx is more ambiguous in re guards to nationalism and the national question.
RE: The Coronavirus - Bob Butler 54 - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 07:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Or I'm simply not Blue, which neither is Styx. That being said, I would check everything Maddow says and certainly Cuomo. I wouldn't trust either as far as I could throw them.
Both of us are in the Libertarian camp. Though I would say I'm in the line of Nationalist Libertarianism where as Styx is more ambiguous in re guards to nationalism and the national question.
Oh, I’ve checked Rachel against any other things on other nights, especially when I first started watching her. She has earned her way to a trusted source by now. But the point is that I am blue and did not recognize myself in Styx’s version of what the blue believe. He lives in la la land. In order to be comfortable there, he had to have at some point put together a large number of what seem to me to be lies.
Basically, what the blue reports of the red saying seem pretty much accurate, usually backed up by clips of the red folk actually saying them. What the red say about the blue are badly often badly distorted or lies.
If you also live in la la land, what you input is likely to be of similar quality…. Worthless.
RE: The Coronavirus - pbrower2a - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 06:50 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(05-15-2020, 06:41 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Or some people would rather work for a living than get a government ration. Or they value having their own money over their own life. I know I do, I work with the public every day and have since this 'pandemic' started.
There is no moral judgement here, there are only two sides here: Those who want to get back to living their lives on their terms and those who want to virtue signal about those people living their lives on their own terms.
History has a habit of bypassing the virtue signalers. As I said elsewhere in five or so years the Carona Karens will be openly mocked because those who simply want to get on with life will be victorious.
There are those who want to turn the turnings backwards, to go back to what we once were. Unlikely. If you want to run by unravelling selfishness and hedonism during a crisis, you are going to be out of step. You can try to run against the will of most of the people, but if you do so you are likely to get trampled. The vague principles that hold true during three plus turnings don't hold true in a crisis heart.
You have always clung to the elites, whether it be the Communist Party or your father. This has obvious advantages most of the time. Not just now. You might want to run with the people for a little while.
As a rule a vehicle wheel goes forward, unless it is skidding as if hydroplaning, when the upper part of the tire is headed backward. With a tank, the upper treads are going backward. The generational cycle is like that in many ways. Some progress comes to an abrupt end and even reverses. But wheeled transport is usually more economical than the alternative. Horses might be more effective in some cases, but they are more capricious and they must be fed even if they aren't working -- and they must rest to forage.
The bad behavior of the 3T that got us into our current pickle is the last thing we need to recover. If by some chance one enjoyed soms of its aspects, then it will likely be back in about seventy years. Obviously I won;t be around, and in view of human nature as the generational cycle operates, people will again be seeking easy money in highly-liquid investments instead of investing in plant and equipment that create the jobs. that promote a consumer economy instead of one big, glitzy (and doomed) casino economy. Were we to go back to the recent 3T we would be setting up nearly the same calamities only to be in a worse position in which to respond because such would gut even more of the assets and talents necessary for turning America around.
Somehow I see the people who want to open America prematurely as doomed but clueless. It is not a question of liberalism versus conservatism; it is one instead of wise practice instead of recklessness and corruption. Conservatives would be wise to recognize that their next successful President will act much more like Obama than like Trump, and all that could possibly be wrong with Obama is that he was not a conservative. Of course, people whose idea of a fitting protest is to carry their beloved guns around and deny the reality of the danger of COVID-19 by mass but mask-less rallies seem to be acting in consummate folly. If we have no counter-protests it is because the liberal side knows what the issues are for themselves.
... Howe and Strauss suggested that kindness, caution, and conscience are the tools of character necessary for achieving a satisfying conclusion to a Crisis war. OK, COVID-19 isn't exactly a war, but it certainly offers danger and mass death characteristic of a Crisis War. Statistically I can see little difference between death in combat (such as crashing and burning in a downed aircraft, drowning as one's ship or submarine sinks, being blasted into a pink mist when one steps on a landmine, being riddled with machine-gun fire, or being crushed under a falling building that one cannot escape as it is bombed -- and dying of an unusually-nasty respiratory disease for which we Americans are ill prepared because respiratory infections rarely kill healthy people in a First-World society or privileged people in somewhat-poorer places.
It is clear what we must do to avoid contracting and transmitting this horrible disease. We all know. More people are catching on. Fewer people are going out in public without masks. Most of us are washing our hands more often, and we are keeping distances. We are getting accustomed to not doing many things that we used to do with little thought. We are developing (or at least most of us -- blockheads less likely to survive might not be developing those sound habits) -- like seeking out reputable sources and credible leaders instead of seeking people who tell us what we want to believe. We are beginning to recognize that a steady supply of goods at high prices is better than an unsteady supply of bargains. Big Business will be unable to use some of the corner-cutting means of keeping costs down at the expense of workers.
I expect the stock markets to further tank. Add to this, games with money supply to make the economy perform as the national leadership wants at the moment will start to fail. I can't say that we will quite go back to the pattern of the late 1940's in banking (as a depository institution and as a lender) in relying upon depositors for capital for investment with the expectation that prudent borrowers will pay back because they prosper. Subprime loans will of the sort that flourished and fizzled in the Double-Zero Decade won't be possible. Bankers will be unable to sell people on taking out a mortgage loan that they have no chance of ever paying back on the assumption that foreclosing on a defaulting mortgagee whose property is rising in value is more profitable than lending on more modest housing. I expect real estate values to crash in some places as people find that they no longer need to live in high-cost places just to be able to hold a job while some recently-ravaged urban areas become attractive places for raising families.
Forward has always been Crisis Eras in which the great absurdities of the outer world come crashing down, a High (or recovery) in which people establish credible institutions that facilitate prosperity and comfort, an Awakening Era in which people challenge the mechanistic and often conformist assumptions of an economic machine, an Unraveling in which people try to have fun without thinking too deeply (because such is exhausted), and finally a Crisis Era in which people make momentous sacrifices for survival of what is dear and necessary. We find in a Crisis Era that some sacrifices are necessary for the survival of nation and community, in a High that material comfort is worthy of some constraints, in an Awakening that if we act as automata we lose our human characteristics, and in an unraveling that hedonism and the profit motive aren't all bad. No era within the Saeculum is perfect, and much that is possible in one stage of the Saeculum is impossible in another.
RE: The Coronavirus - Eric the Green - 05-16-2020
(05-15-2020, 07:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(05-15-2020, 06:58 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:
Felt this video is relevant.
I consider myself pretty blue with respect to the virus. I mean, nothing that Rachel Maddow and Governor Cumo said last night made me want to double check. And yet, with this guy, I didn't recognize myself at all. His idea of what the blue mind set was simply didn't touch me. That made me believe his mind set was made in la la land. His news source would be mostly lies, and his beliefs thus bogus.
If you find the video at all relevant, you are likely of the same level of not reality.
I've seen this idiot before, some years ago.
RE: The Coronavirus - Bob Butler 54 - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 03:39 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:(05-15-2020, 07:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I consider myself pretty blue with respect to the virus. I mean, nothing that Rachel Maddow and Governor Cumo said last night made me want to double check. And yet, with this guy, I didn't recognize myself at all. His idea of what the blue mind set was simply didn't touch me. That made me believe his mind set was made in la la land. His news source would be mostly lies, and his beliefs thus bogus.
If you find the video at all relevant, you are likely of the same level of not reality.
I've seen this idiot before, some years ago.
I'm not convinced he is an idiot. His way of looking at things is well thought out, but his ideas on how blues think are way off. That means he managed to create a view of the world which has nothing to do with reality.
That is likely necessary to justify what he wants to justify. If your thinking has a particular answer first then creates an image of the world based on justifying what you have already decided, you wind up with weird ideas that don't fit anything real.
RE: The Coronavirus - Bob Butler 54 - 05-16-2020
Last night Rachel put on a clip of Trump saying that if you test, you find someone contaminated with the bug, which is bad.
That sort of reminds me of a western, I think it was Dances with Wolves, where one chief used a magic spell centered on if you closed your eyes, they couldn't see you. You became invisible. In the movies, it worked. They walked out of a massacre that way.
I just have the feeling this isn't the movies. You can't make bad things go away by closing your eyes.
RE: The Coronavirus - Eric the Green - 05-16-2020
![[Image: 97227400_10222288258260536_1675398623988...e=5EE5C404]](https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/97227400_10222288258260536_167539862398828544_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=dn_JpdNQZ8MAX_nDFep&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=9dcc9609fe14624e7d2256ee06ef9d3e&oe=5EE5C404)
RE: The Coronavirus - Bob Butler 54 - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 05:10 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
This assumes the new bug reacts poorly to heat. The summer climate creates the gap between the 1st and 2nd waves. Not absolutely clear that will be there this time.
But, yes.
RE: The Coronavirus - Warren Dew - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 04:04 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Last night Rachel put on a clip of Trump saying that if you test, you find someone contaminated with the bug, which is bad.
Good to see that Maddow is trusting Trump now.
RE: The Coronavirus - Eric the Green - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 05:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(05-16-2020, 05:10 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
This assumes the new bug reacts poorly to heat. The summer climate creates the gap between the 1st and 2nd waves. Not absolutely clear that will be there this time.
But, yes.
The point is, however, that the second wave comes because we make mistakes. And we are making them.
RE: The Coronavirus - Bob Butler 54 - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 01:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The point is, however, that the second wave comes because we make mistakes. And we are making them.
We are making mistakes. In spades we are making mistakes.
Just saying, for those who live in la la land, that they may not have the extra months before the fantasy collapses.
RE: The Coronavirus - Warren Dew - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 01:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The point is, however, that the second wave comes because we make mistakes. And we are making them.
The second wave would happen even if we weren't making mistakes. It tooks us decades to wipe out smallpox; we're not going to wipe out Covid-19 in a few months.
RE: The Coronavirus - Eric the Green - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 06:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:(05-16-2020, 01:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The point is, however, that the second wave comes because we make mistakes. And we are making them.
The second wave would happen even if we weren't making mistakes. It tooks us decades to wipe out smallpox; we're not going to wipe out Covid-19 in a few months.
Not now, because we have let it get away from us thanks to Trump.
RE: The Coronavirus - Warren Dew - 05-16-2020
Eric, the only way there would have been to avoid it would have been to shut down all incoming travel about December 31, including returning citizens. I don't think that was unrealistic, especially considering how the WHO was then claiming there was no evidence of human to human transmission, which they continued to claim for months.