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+---- Thread: America is a sick society (/thread-595.html)
RE: America is a sick society - Bob Butler 54 - 01-03-2017
(01-02-2017, 08:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Progressive regimentary regulation affects only wealthy business interests. They are the ones who are restricting us. The army is not filled with those folks.
But libertarian economics uses the slogans of "freedom" to confuse people about this.
I would say both cultures are irritated to similar degrees when the other tries to force its way of life on the entire country. Perhaps the violent and militant aspects of the Scotts Irish culture and tradition makes them feel more comfortable with military life. Perhaps not. However, it seems safe to say that both the red and blue folk are unhappy with having to deal with the other.
I'd add that from either perspective, for good reason. If you haven't figured out why the red folk dislike what the blue folk try to do to them, you really aren't listening at all. Members of both cultures might well want to get away. However, military life not for everybody, and the sacrifices that have to be made by some are emphatically very real.
But I emphatically do agree that some people adapt very well indeed to military life. If anyone doubts, On Killing is a worthy read.
RE: America is a sick society - David Horn - 01-03-2017
(01-02-2017, 07:54 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:(01-02-2017, 04:43 PM)TnT Wrote: An observation about something that startled and amazed me over the last ten years that relates to this:
The meme that's out and about tells us that our soldiers all suffered greatly from many deployments into the Middle East. I know several firefighters and paramedics and EMTs who have been deployed. Then return and go back to work at either one of the local fire services or EMS providers.
Then, surprisingly, they can't wait to be deployed again!! Yes!
When I chat with them they tell me how much they enjoy the relative freedom, the cameraderie, the simplicity of life. The "rules" are straightforward. You work, you blow stuff up, you shoot stuff, you fly stuff, you eat, you sleep, you drink, you enjoy one-another's company. And then people call you a "hero." And you get to be a part of something that seems much larger than yourself.
Kind of illustrates just how little freedom we have left and how much progressive regulatory regimentation has infiltrated all aspects of everyday life.
Can I assume yo have no military experience? If you did, you would understand the inherent dichotomy. Life in a warzone has no relevance to life outside one.
RE: America is a sick society - TnT - 01-03-2017
(01-03-2017, 12:56 PM)David Horn Wrote:(01-02-2017, 07:54 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:(01-02-2017, 04:43 PM)TnT Wrote: An observation about something that startled and amazed me over the last ten years that relates to this:
The meme that's out and about tells us that our soldiers all suffered greatly from many deployments into the Middle East. I know several firefighters and paramedics and EMTs who have been deployed. Then return and go back to work at either one of the local fire services or EMS providers.
Then, surprisingly, they can't wait to be deployed again!! Yes!
When I chat with them they tell me how much they enjoy the relative freedom, the cameraderie, the simplicity of life. The "rules" are straightforward. You work, you blow stuff up, you shoot stuff, you fly stuff, you eat, you sleep, you drink, you enjoy one-another's company. And then people call you a "hero." And you get to be a part of something that seems much larger than yourself.
Kind of illustrates just how little freedom we have left and how much progressive regulatory regimentation has infiltrated all aspects of everyday life.
Can I assume yo have no military experience? If you did, you would understand the inherent dichotomy. Life in a warzone has no relevance to life outside one.
I think I do understand it. And I hope that my comment did not convince you all that I believe that ALL those deployed have this seemingly anomalous attitude toward deployment. Clearly there are many who return with terrible disabilities, both physical and mental.
I have had ten years of experience in EMS on the street which perhaps mirrors some of the stresses and challenges of military life, though clearly we are not nearly as much in harm's way as a soldier in a combat zone. On the other hand, we ARE in harm's way at times, and we have no weapons with which to defend ourselves. I have personally been in many combative situations. I doubt if a single field employee in our service has not.
Then, there are things seen that no one should have to see. It's a kind of dark joke amongst us that you can't un-see something that you've seen.
The camaraderie is similar. When, over our radios, we hear one of ours requesting help in a combative situation, protocols are ignored, our own safety is often ignored. Multiple (unarmed) nearby ambulance crews rush to the scene. Usually we and the police arrive at about the same time. Which can be a good thing in some cases.
This brings me to another concept that one runs across a lot. You just challenged me by saying, "I assume you have no military experience." There is this attitude that if one has not had the EXACT same kind of stressful experience as another, that there is simply no way to understand another person's angst.
I would submit that a five year old who has had the shit beat out of him for years, has PTSD that's not a whole lot different than that suffered by combat soldiers, or that suffered by my co-workers, or by law enforcement, or by domestic violence victims, etc., etc.
My story was only a piece of the puzzle. I tell it because the societal level of understanding of combat soldiers is incomplete if we only hear about the burdens, the risks, and the disabilities suffered by those who are deployed. And it raises the question of who we are as a species.
I think we are hard-wired with a lot of tendencies that are just below the surface, that we often deny and try to push down, often unsuccessfullly. I think for example that we are all hard-wired with xenophobia. Men may possibly be hard-wired to be sexual predators. All of us may be hard-wired to be more comfortable in a Tribe or a tribe-like environment. War, combat, may well be another feature that we all come with.
RE: America is a sick society - Eric the Green - 01-03-2017
(01-03-2017, 12:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(01-02-2017, 08:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Progressive regimentary regulation affects only wealthy business interests. They are the ones who are restricting us. The army is not filled with those folks.
But libertarian economics uses the slogans of "freedom" to confuse people about this.
I would say both cultures are irritated to similar degrees when the other tries to force its way of life on the entire country. Perhaps the violent and militant aspects of the Scotts Irish culture and tradition makes them feel more comfortable with military life. Perhaps not. However, it seems safe to say that both the red and blue folk are unhappy with having to deal with the other.
I'd add that from either perspective, for good reason. If you haven't figured out why the red folk dislike what the blue folk try to do to them, you really aren't listening at all....
The blue folk are trying to "impose" awareness of reality and hope for the future. The red folk insist on their illusions. They don't like having them taken away. And the greatest illusion of all, though one among many, is that they need a gun, Bob. That one's for you
Bring the "military life" home all the time.
RE: America is a sick society - Galen - 01-03-2017
(01-03-2017, 11:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: Eric: And the greatest illusion of all, though one among many, is that they need a gun, Bob."
Me: Thinks on situations that individual Republicans have told me then......(face palm) oh ffs Eric.
I have found having a firearm around to be quite useful from time to time.
Helpful when dealing with two-legged predators.
RE: America is a sick society - Galen - 01-03-2017
(01-03-2017, 11:19 PM)taramarie Wrote:(01-03-2017, 11:14 PM)Galen Wrote:(01-03-2017, 11:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: Eric: And the greatest illusion of all, though one among many, is that they need a gun, Bob."
Me: Thinks on situations that individual Republicans have told me then......(face palm) oh ffs Eric.
I have found having a firearm around to be quite useful from time to time.
Yes I would agree with that. See I went over to Joburg, South Africa. Rated as one of the most dangerous cities in the world. That is where I realized the benefit of a weapon and protection. But watch Eric dismiss that. I wonder if he has ever been in danger before and how he would handle it if a gun was pointed at him.
Considering how annoying Eric the Obtuse is, I would have expected someone to have beaten the shit out of him at some point in his life. Yet he strangely acts as if such things are not possible. I suspect that a visit to one of the nastier parts of South Africa would supply him with valuable experience, should he survive.
RE: America is a sick society - Galen - 01-03-2017
(01-03-2017, 11:35 PM)taramarie Wrote:(01-03-2017, 11:30 PM)Galen Wrote:(01-03-2017, 11:19 PM)taramarie Wrote: Yes I would agree with that. See I went over to Joburg, South Africa. Rated as one of the most dangerous cities in the world. That is where I realized the benefit of a weapon and protection. But watch Eric dismiss that. I wonder if he has ever been in danger before and how he would handle it if a gun was pointed at him.
Considering how annoying Eric the Obtuse is, I would have expected someone to have beaten the shit out of him at some point in his life. Yet he strangely acts as if such things are not possible. I suspect that a visit to one of the nastier parts of South Africa would supply him with valuable experience, should he survive.
Lol exactly. It would be a big IF. I was lucky enough to have a partner who was born and raised there and I was wise enough to listen to his advice given I was the ignorant foreigner and I value living. Experiencing such a city was a real eye opener and rather shocking. Sometimes you bloody well need that protection. His area may be relatively safe but I reckon it would be safe to assume some areas, not so much. Thing is those who are bloody idiots with their guns bring the rest down.
There aren't that many idiots. Its the gangs and other criminal types that are the real problem and they tend to be very creative about getting things that are banned. Unfortunately for Eric the Obtuse superstitious incantations seem to be ineffective against the law of supply and demand.
RE: America is a sick society - Galen - 01-04-2017
(01-04-2017, 12:06 AM)taramarie Wrote:(01-03-2017, 11:52 PM)Galen Wrote:That is the thing. They will get guns regardless. So perhaps they should think about changing culture rather than focusing on guns? That way people may feel they do not need guns as much. Who knows I am open to ideas. But thing is if a certain place is dangerous you do not walk around unarmed. That very well could be a death sentence. I would not know if there were not that many idiots. I would need stats on that to be sure.(01-03-2017, 11:35 PM)taramarie Wrote:(01-03-2017, 11:30 PM)Galen Wrote:(01-03-2017, 11:19 PM)taramarie Wrote: Yes I would agree with that. See I went over to Joburg, South Africa. Rated as one of the most dangerous cities in the world. That is where I realized the benefit of a weapon and protection. But watch Eric dismiss that. I wonder if he has ever been in danger before and how he would handle it if a gun was pointed at him.
Considering how annoying Eric the Obtuse is, I would have expected someone to have beaten the shit out of him at some point in his life. Yet he strangely acts as if such things are not possible. I suspect that a visit to one of the nastier parts of South Africa would supply him with valuable experience, should he survive.
Lol exactly. It would be a big IF. I was lucky enough to have a partner who was born and raised there and I was wise enough to listen to his advice given I was the ignorant foreigner and I value living. Experiencing such a city was a real eye opener and rather shocking. Sometimes you bloody well need that protection. His area may be relatively safe but I reckon it would be safe to assume some areas, not so much. Thing is those who are bloody idiots with their guns bring the rest down.
There aren't that many idiots. Its the gangs and other criminal types that are the real problem and they tend to be very creative about getting things that are banned. Unfortunately for Eric the Obtuse superstitious incantations seem to be ineffective against the law of supply and demand.
The number of accidental deaths due to firearms in the US is about 600 per year. Like I said, there aren't that many idiots.
RE: America is a sick society - Warren Dew - 01-04-2017
(01-03-2017, 12:56 PM)David Horn Wrote:(01-02-2017, 07:54 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:(01-02-2017, 04:43 PM)TnT Wrote: An observation about something that startled and amazed me over the last ten years that relates to this:
The meme that's out and about tells us that our soldiers all suffered greatly from many deployments into the Middle East. I know several firefighters and paramedics and EMTs who have been deployed. Then return and go back to work at either one of the local fire services or EMS providers.
Then, surprisingly, they can't wait to be deployed again!! Yes!
When I chat with them they tell me how much they enjoy the relative freedom, the cameraderie, the simplicity of life. The "rules" are straightforward. You work, you blow stuff up, you shoot stuff, you fly stuff, you eat, you sleep, you drink, you enjoy one-another's company. And then people call you a "hero." And you get to be a part of something that seems much larger than yourself.
Kind of illustrates just how little freedom we have left and how much progressive regulatory regimentation has infiltrated all aspects of everyday life.
Can I assume yo have no military experience? If you did, you would understand the inherent dichotomy. Life in a warzone has no relevance to life outside one.
You can make whatever incorrect assumptions you want.
RE: America is a sick society - David Horn - 01-04-2017
(01-04-2017, 02:27 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(01-03-2017, 12:56 PM)David Horn Wrote: Can I assume you have no military experience? If you did, you would understand the inherent dichotomy. Life in a warzone has no relevance to life outside one.
You can make whatever incorrect assumptions you want.
Feel free to enlighten us, though I stand on my previous comment. Going about armed in an us-or-them environment tends to distort the value of "them" and lower the inhibitions of "us".
RE: America is a sick society - Bob Butler 54 - 01-04-2017
(01-03-2017, 07:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The blue folk are trying to "impose" awareness of reality and hope for the future. The red folk insist on their illusions.
The belief that one's own side has reality and a solid basis to move towards a healthy future, while the other side has illusions, is not unique to either faction. Mind you, we need more fact checkers. I don't know if Trump doesn't care whether his lies are obvious lies, or whether his grip on reality is lost.
(01-03-2017, 07:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: They don't like having them taken away. And the greatest illusion of all, though one among many, is that they need a gun, Bob. That one's for you
Humans divide into groups. If they aren't careful, they can come to disrespect the other group to the point that the other guy's right to life and property become lost. One gets war and strife. See Syria. See Chicago. Again, I allow myself to daydream occasional of a Roddenberry Federation style benign culture where strife has become obsolete. We aren't seeing it in my life time. Thus, we need defense, and for many this means self defense.
What will it take to get rid of the strife? One direction to push is freedom from want. There has to be enough resources for all and a culture that makes sure that all get a least the basics. If there is not enough to go around, humans tend to form groups that will seize enough for their own to have enough.
The other culture can't be demonized. It should be perceived as worthy of respect rather than worthy of scorn and violence. The world can't be divided between Us and Them with strong efforts to portray Them as insane, evil, stupid, or etc...
The above two paragraphs are among the reasons I lean progressive. I favor an inclusive economy, safety nets, and respect for minorities.
And I distrust demonization and hate, even by fellow progressives... perhaps especially by people who portray themselves as progressive. They are poisoning the message.
In rural areas, the response time for government provided security is often perceived of as too slow, in part due to distance. People perceive the ideal necessary practical defense differently as the situation is different. The certainties you are locked in on don't apply everywhere. This is before one considers the weight of culture and tradition. People will not move off of basic values regarding a life and death survival situation, with these values handed down for generations, unless the values have been observed to have clearly failed. They have not been observed to have clearly failed.
As you say, reprising our views is pretty futile if it is measured by the likelihood of either of us changing the other's mind. However, not everyone who disagrees with you is evil, insane or stupid. They have a culture they perceive of has having worked for a long time and is still working. If you try to come in from the outside and make major changes to said culture for no good valid reason its members can perceive, [understatement] there will be resistance. [/understatement]
RE: America is a sick society - Eric the Green - 01-04-2017
(01-04-2017, 05:57 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(01-03-2017, 07:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The blue folk are trying to "impose" awareness of reality and hope for the future. The red folk insist on their illusions.
The belief that one's own side has reality and a solid basis to move towards a healthy future, while the other side has illusions, is not unique to either faction. Mind you, we need more fact checkers. I don't know if Trump doesn't care whether his lies are obvious lies, or whether his grip on reality is lost.
(01-03-2017, 07:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: They don't like having them taken away. And the greatest illusion of all, though one among many, is that they need a gun, Bob. That one's for you
Humans divide into groups. If they aren't careful, they can come to disrespect the other group to the point that the other guy's right to life and property become lost. One gets war and strife. See Syria. See Chicago. Again, I allow myself to daydream occasional of a Roddenberry Federation style benign culture where strife has become obsolete. We aren't seeing it in my life time. Thus, we need defense, and for many this means self defense.
What will it take to get rid of the strife? One direction to push is freedom from want. There has to be enough resources for all and a culture that makes sure that all get a least the basics. If there is not enough to go around, humans tend to form groups that will seize enough for their own to have enough.
The other culture can't be demonized. It should be perceived as worthy of respect rather than worthy of scorn and violence. The world can't be divided between Us and Them with strong efforts to portray Them as insane, evil, stupid, or etc...
The above two paragraphs are among the reasons I lean progressive. I favor an inclusive economy, safety nets, and respect for minorities.
And I distrust demonization and hate, even by fellow progressives... perhaps especially by people who portray themselves as progressive. They are poisoning the message.
In rural areas, the response time for government provided security is often perceived of as too slow, in part due to distance. People perceive the ideal necessary practical defense differently as the situation is different. The certainties you are locked in on don't apply everywhere. This is before one considers the weight of culture and tradition. People will not move off of basic values regarding a life and death survival situation, with these values handed down for generations, unless the values have been observed to have clearly failed. They have not been observed to have clearly failed.
As you say, reprising our views is pretty futile if it is measured by the likelihood of either of us changing the other's mind. However, not everyone who disagrees with you is evil, insane or stupid. They have a culture they perceive of has having worked for a long time and is still working. If you try to come in from the outside and make major changes to said culture for no good valid reason its members can perceive, [understatement] there will be resistance. [/understatement]
It's like Tom Lehrer said,
"I'm sure you'd agree we ought to love one another, and I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT!" -- Tom Lehrer, 1965
It's hard to observe brotherhood. But labelling people as bad in one way or another is not the most polite or effective form of communication.
"National Make Fun of the Handicapped Week" (I think we can nominate a new chairman for THAT cause lol)
It's more than a little amusing however that you throw in "no good valid reason." There's every good reason that the southern and rural American culture needs to make "major changes" to their culture they "perceive is working for them," to the extent that it indeed is divisive and violent (and loves the modern efficient tools of violence as a cult obsession), and is imposing its culture upon the rest of us-- which it is doing with the strong help of its Republican representatives in our government. And to the peril and disadvantage of all of us, including themselves.
It will take realization on their own part to change this "culture" in those ways. Meanwhile, there's a contest, called our current 4T, and in this 4T, it is necessary to defeat them politically. We are losing, currently. What that means, first of all, is not to change them so much, but to mobilize the opposing culture, which we now call blue. I do believe our republic and world hang in the balance of that mobilization, and that victory, in this 4T Crisis. That IS the 4T Crisis, in fact! So, "no valid reason" is about as far from reality as it can be. But it's true, how much of the opposing culture itself can be changed, may not amount to much. It will have to be forced to go along however, politically, in the union as a whole at least, if we are to survive. Or, perhaps, to separate off again, so that the rest of us CAN do some of what needs to be done.
Of course, as I should have made clear by now, this does not include a government program to forcibly take away all guns from everyone. There is a suitable compromise. The problem with that is, one side is willing to compromise; the other side isn't. So to get our compromise, and thus save some lives, it will be necessary for the blue side to win.
RE: America is a sick society - Eric the Green - 01-05-2017
(01-03-2017, 07:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The dark realities of today's neo-liberal society, according to Henry Giroux
starts @ 6:42
https://youtu.be/gJfK6kBr9GI?t=6m42s
RE: America is a sick society - Bob Butler 54 - 01-05-2017
(01-04-2017, 08:13 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: We've got lots of problems with wildlife in my hood.
And it's not due to encroachment, given that my particular subdivision was carved out 130 years ago and was developed ad hoc, lot by lot, not all at the same time. So we have everything from Edwardian to recent new construction.
We also have some loons who do things like feed the wildlife. Beyond this we end up inadvertently feeding the wildlife via the easy opening "Waste Zero" compost, recycling and trash bins (on wheels with hinged top for robot arm operation of the collection vehicle). So we have too much wildlife versus the pre-Columbian "Eden" condition.
We have a nabe that can no longer tolerate the raccoons. I know this because I started to hear a certain sound. It's the sound of a sublethal rapid fire air gun - literally an air operated machine gun that fires little plastic pellets. Keeps 'em at bay. If we didn't have firearm discharge regs I am positive there would be lethal countermeasures in play by numerous nabes and even me at times.
I've a similar story from back in the 1970s, though I won't claim any significant political meaning. The local chapter of the Society for Creative Anachronism, a medieval re-creation group, owned a residence at the time. They practiced all sorts of ancient arts from sword fighting to dancing to... archery. Thus, when a bird started feasting on the content of the residence's garden, they didn't have a fully automatic air gun available. All they had was a bow.
The Barony of Carolingia's archery champion tried to scare the thing off... but was better than she thought she was. She scored a glancing hit. I was told the result was a most indignant squawk. However, the bird never returned to the garden.
I won't claim the incident makes an important statement about the difference between Boomers and the newer generations.
RE: America is a sick society - Odin - 01-05-2017
(01-05-2017, 02:38 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(01-04-2017, 08:13 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: We've got lots of problems with wildlife in my hood.
And it's not due to encroachment, given that my particular subdivision was carved out 130 years ago and was developed ad hoc, lot by lot, not all at the same time. So we have everything from Edwardian to recent new construction.
We also have some loons who do things like feed the wildlife. Beyond this we end up inadvertently feeding the wildlife via the easy opening "Waste Zero" compost, recycling and trash bins (on wheels with hinged top for robot arm operation of the collection vehicle). So we have too much wildlife versus the pre-Columbian "Eden" condition.
We have a nabe that can no longer tolerate the raccoons. I know this because I started to hear a certain sound. It's the sound of a sublethal rapid fire air gun - literally an air operated machine gun that fires little plastic pellets. Keeps 'em at bay. If we didn't have firearm discharge regs I am positive there would be lethal countermeasures in play by numerous nabes and even me at times.
I've a similar story from back in the 1970s, though I won't claim any significant political meaning. The local chapter of the Society for Creative Anachronism, a medieval re-creation group, owned a residence at the time. They practiced all sorts of ancient arts from sword fighting to dancing to... archery. Thus, when a bird started feasting on the content of the residence's garden, they didn't have a fully automatic air gun available. All they had was a bow.
The Barony of Carolingia's archery champion tried to scare the thing off... but was better than she thought she was. She scored a glancing hit. I was told the result was a most indignant squawk. However, the bird never returned to the garden.
I won't claim the incident makes an important statement about the difference between Boomers and the newer generations.
Thanks for the morning laugh, Bob!
RE: America is a sick society - Eric the Green - 01-05-2017
Respect black folks; don't shoot them.
![[Image: 15780971_378739702479783_518515209658267...e=591F1C16]](https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15780971_378739702479783_518515209658267113_n.jpg?oh=075003981498fa81afd2b7f39e2c1535&oe=591F1C16)
RE: America is a sick society - Anthony '58 - 01-06-2017
(12-28-2016, 03:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:(12-28-2016, 02:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:(12-27-2016, 12:44 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I believe it is time to revisit this ideology by beginning a separate thread on this relatively new 4T forum, which I now intend to do, if for no other reason than the fact that the Trump administration promises to deliver "neoliberalism on steroids."
Every success holds the key to its own undoing. I would have preferred another alternative than the GOP dominance we're about to endure, but it's the solution that happened. The blame? There's plenty to share, but fully 90% of it resides with the Democratic Party, and its habit of excessive self absorption. Now, they get pulled into the street, and have to find their way. If they fail, then they dissolve and are replaced. In the end, the neoliberal model will fail, because it has no structural integrity, but in the interim, we will suffer the indignities we fully deserve.
I am tempted to believe that the GOP 'happy time' of political lockstep in which solutions not offered from outside the GOP are rejected completely will become a political disaster. People who will get hurt or left behind in the transformation of America into a "Christian and Corporate State" will go to the street, and they will organize politically.
The success of the Tea Party demonstrates that successful causes do not require well-honed politicians to change the majorities in Congress. It is about time for younger politicians in their 30s (by 2020 almost entirely Millennial adults) to have success in reaching high elective office. If Boomers like Hillary Clinton cannot excite them, then a Boomer like Donald Trump can offend them. Oh, so America is to be 'great' by becoming a high-price, cheap-labor country in which education is derided and partisan politics of one side shapes everything?
I see little evidence that Millennial adults would on the whole make political choices that hurt their children.
I expect that Donald Trump will replace the Awakening ditty "All you need is Love" with "All you need is Work"... there will be plenty of work, as is the norm in any fascist society. The problem is that the pay attached to the work is a travesty, and that the work becomes destructive of human qualities.
If there is a dark side to the Millennial Generation is that it could morph into the reason-is-everything ethos of Jacobins and introduce the 2020 version of the guillotine (nitrogen asphyxiation?) as the solution to the presence of people unduly connected to the discreditable past.
Organize politically?
They will do a lot more than that: With treason having been destigmatized by the Boom Awakening - "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, NLF is gonna win," "In the end even treason might be worth a try," etc. - they will enter into open collaboration with ISIS, etc.
And if this sounds too extreme, not only consider the source -
- but also at least two instances from past history: During the 15th-Century peasants' revolt, the peasants in the Balkans collaborated with a Muslim enemy, the Turks, against the Byzantines, accounting for why Bosnians, Albanians, and Kosovars are predominantly Muslim today; and the ancestors of today's Pakistani Muslims were low-caste Hindus who converted to Islam to escape the Hindu caste system at about the same time. So the Muslims have a long, proven track record of being really good at this - a lot better than the Communists ever were (otherwise the South would have been a hotbed of communism because of its poverty relative to the rest of the U.S. throughout the early and mid-20th Century).
RE: America is a sick society - pbrower2a - 01-06-2017
American liberals would never collaborate with ISIS, an entity as undemocratic and illiberal as Stalinism or Nazism. They would easily collaborate with a democratic Japan, Indonesia, or India because of shared values even with great differences of culture; democracy is an internationalist ideal, much as German liberals who survived the Devil's Reich found it easy to collaborate with the British or Americans.
I can imagine American fascists collaborating with Islamofascism because for authoritarian types, culture is not so precious as is t5he desire to exploit and abuse people. Communism? Commies found that rank-and-file members of the fascist militias (Hlinka Guard in Slovakia, Arrow Cross in Hungary, Iron Guard in Romania, and Ustase in Croatia) would sell out their old bosses for their own gain -- and they would get to keep beating up political opponents such as liberals, conservatives, and democratic socialists as they did for fascist regimes.
RE: America is a sick society - Eric the Green - 01-06-2017
Another reason to overcome our latent racism and respect African Americans (and thus speak out against Sessions):
“Hidden Figures” is a story about reaching for the stars while fighting racial and gender barriers. The new movie follows the careers of three black women who worked at NASA’s Langley headquarters in Virginia during the 1950s and ‘60s to help launch the first American into space. Long overlooked, their story is finally being told. Jeffrey Brown reports.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/hidden-figures-brings-nasas-overlooked-black-pioneers-light/
RE: America is a sick society - pbrower2a - 01-06-2017
Sessions is going to be a brittle target for anti-racists.
I expect practically every Trump appointee to be rushed through the confirma5tion process and confirmed on partisan lines. Democrats are $crewed for at least the next four years in federal politics. About the only thing that Republicans will be unable to do is some egregious violation of the Constitution or to try to undo Supreme Court decisions directly. Stare decisis applies as a well-protected principle in jurisprudence.
I would not be surprised if Republicans tried to outlaw or 'merely' regulate the Democrats into irrelevance as Commies did in central Europe in the late 1940s. Such would indicate that they have no intention of losing any election.
If we do not have the White House or any meaningful power in Congress -- we have the streets. Most big cities have Democratic majorities with police chiefs who will not stop lawful protests. They will bust rioters, but tough luck to the rioters and especially any violent counter-protesters.
I expect one-sided, hurtful politics from Republicans for the next four years. In the meantime we Democrats will be honing our rhetoric and learning activism. This is a Crisis Era, and the drift toward hostility to the classist ideology of Republicans will be slow. It is unlikely that Trump and the Hard Right Republican Party will ever have anything to offer liberals except fear. In the British colonies in the early 1770s America went from being resoundingly Tory (just think of John Adams' rightful defense of British soldiers) to pro-independence as George III tried to tighten his grip. By early 1776 George III lost his grip on Greater Boston -- before people who had recently had no cause to oppose the King could not think of any alternative to independence.