(02-08-2018, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-08-2018, 02:40 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-07-2018, 09:46 PM)Cynic Hero Wrote:

(02-07-2018, 04:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Now Trump is really showing us who he is. He wants a military parade. He wants to make like some fascist or commie dictator, to outshine Kim Jung Un.

To: Washington, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser

The Washington Post just announced that Trump plans a massive demonstration of military power in Washington, D.C. This parade will not do anything to keep our country safe, and it will not honor the men and women in uniform. Its entire purpose is to let Donald Trump play dictator for a day, further eroding democracy, and pushing our country even closer to authoritarianism.

This announcement must not be treated as normal. I urge you to use your position as mayor of our nation's capital to prevent President Trump from holding his dangerous war parade in your city.
https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/tell-dc-mayor-bowser?akid=198456.17451352.3HoT-R&rd=1&source=mo&t=13

Trump may have obvious personal flaws, but this is the best thing in years if not decades for American national security. The parade is not for its practical imperatives but is important that it sends a message to our enemies: That America is not to be messed with.

Dunno about that man.  The deep state is an overbloated expensive mess. How about this? Could it be that the deep state is it's own worst enemy ?

Talk about not fit for purpose.

Fixed the link

(02-08-2018, 05:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-08-2018, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-08-2018, 02:40 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: <snip>

Dunno about that man.  The deep state is an overbloated expensive mess. How about this? Could it be that the deep state is it's own worst enemy ?

Talk about not fit for purpose.

Fixed the link

This particular phenomenon is not about the deep state. Even the Pentagon is not too thrilled with Trump's new military reality show. It's the shallow state, namely Mr. Trump, that is the problem here. Most of the deep state is just government employees and officials doing the jobs they are needed to do, and are good at doing.

Brower's post is right on point.

Quote:The former U.S. Navy SEAL who says he fired the shots that killed Osama bin Laden ripped President Trump's proposal for a military parade in the nation's capital.

"A military parade is third world bullshit," Robert J. O'Neill tweeted on Thursday.

"We prepare. We deter. We fight. Stop this conversation."

The comments come after the White House said President Trump has asked the Pentagon to explore holding "a celebration" for Americans to show their appreciation for the armed forces. The military says it has begun moving forward with the request.

"President Trump is incredibly supportive of America's great service members who risk their lives every day to keep our country safe. He has asked the Department of Defense to explore a celebration at which all Americans can show their appreciation," White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said in a statement earlier this week.

Trump repeatedly has expressed interest in holding a display of America's military might and reportedly upped his calls for a parade after witnessing the Bastille Day celebrations on a trip to France last summer.

The Washington Post reported earlier this week that at a recent meeting between Trump and top military officials the president's wishes were "suddenly heard as a presidential directive."

(02-07-2018, 09:46 PM)Cynic Hero Wrote:

(02-07-2018, 04:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Now Trump is really showing us who he is. He wants a military parade. He wants to make like some fascist or commie dictator, to outshine Kim Jung Un.

To: Washington, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser

The Washington Post just announced that Trump plans a massive demonstration of military power in Washington, D.C. This parade will not do anything to keep our country safe, and it will not honor the men and women in uniform. Its entire purpose is to let Donald Trump play dictator for a day, further eroding democracy, and pushing our country even closer to authoritarianism.

This announcement must not be treated as normal. I urge you to use your position as mayor of our nation's capital to prevent President Trump from holding his dangerous war parade in your city.
https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/tell-dc-mayor-bowser?akid=198456.17451352.3HoT-R&rd=1&source=mo&t=13

Trump may have obvious personal flaws, but this is the best thing in years if not decades for American national security. The parade is not for its practical imperatives but is important that it sends a message to our enemies: That America is not to be messed with.

Quote:Trump may have personal flaws?

(02-08-2018, 06:21 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-08-2018, 05:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-08-2018, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-08-2018, 02:40 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: <snip>

Dunno about that man.  The deep state is an overbloated expensive mess. How about this? Could it be that the deep state is it's own worst enemy ?

Talk about not fit for purpose.

Fixed the link

This particular phenomenon is not about the deep state. Even the Pentagon is not too thrilled with Trump's new military reality show. It's the shallow state, namely Mr. Trump, that is the problem here. Most of the deep state is just government employees and officials doing the jobs they are needed to do, and are good at doing.

Brower's post is right on point.

I thought Der Trumpenfurfur's shit show was obvious.  I guess not...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQsop7XWsAAmdnh.jpg

But, of course it's the deepstate man.  Like every other banana republic , the USA is home to lots of graft and corruption.
The cherry on top is Der Trumpenfurfur's militaristic impulses.

Besides, it's not a problem of people doing their jobs or not. It's problem of complexity , duplication, mission creep, etc.
IOW, it's a structural issue.

(02-09-2018, 02:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Deep state USA Graft and corruption, duplication, mission creep, complexity: do you have examples that would expand on your point?

We know the big things. Money rules politics, and Republicans protect this system. You know how the Citizens United decision went, and whose appointees voted for what there. The media is overly commercialized and not giving people any info.

I think there's always complexity in large systems. From my observation, the problem lies more in how people are voting. As George Carlin put it, average folks keep voting for people who don't give a fuck about them at all. People vote their prejudices, values and brainwashing. They keep settling for propaganda that trickle-down, hate-welfare economics actually works, when it doesn't. We have the government that we deserve. People have assumed that government and politics are bad, so why pay any attention? No, people need to pay attention.

(02-09-2018, 04:00 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes the Deep State (Armed Forces, law enforcement, and the CIA) to protect our democracy, then so be it. They may not be compatible with a Salvador Allende, but  they seemed to have no problem with Obama.

(02-09-2018, 08:50 PM)bobc Wrote:

(02-09-2018, 04:00 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes the Deep State (Armed Forces, law enforcement, and the CIA) to protect our democracy, then so be it. They may not be compatible with a Salvador Allende, but  they seemed to have no problem with Obama.

Thank you for being honest enough to say how you really feel. That belief would apply to much of the "progressive" left.
For decades you probably condemned the abuses of the FBI, CIA, Patriot Act, 1970's CIA, etc.
Now you are just fine with the Deep State being a branch of government above that of the President and Congress.

(02-10-2018, 01:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have plenty of conservative values. I consider law and order necessary for a civil society because lawlessness turns democracy into a sham. I consider tradition a viable alternative for destructive trends in the name of progress, and even a means of finding ways to deal with economic and technological change. I strongly oppose the merger of Big Government and Big Business... and indeed I question whether Big Government is itself a virtue. Legal precedent, established process, and diplomatic protocol exist to mitigate dangerous courses of action. I consider much of the lore of the past, including the great blossoming of intellectual inquiry of the ancient Greeks and the moral teachings of the Hebrew prophets relevant to modern life because such knowledge is best not re-learned the hard way.

(11-14-2016, 12:00 AM)Galen Wrote: It is laughable because the KKK these days is about a dozen guys and half of them are FBI informants.  I just read an opinion piece by Peters and you're right about the comparison.

(02-10-2018, 05:21 PM)bobc Wrote:

(02-10-2018, 01:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have plenty of conservative values. I consider law and order necessary for a civil society because lawlessness turns democracy into a sham. I consider tradition a viable alternative for destructive trends in the name of progress, and even a means of finding ways to deal with economic and technological change. I strongly oppose the merger of Big Government and Big Business... and indeed I question whether Big Government is itself a virtue. Legal precedent, established process, and diplomatic protocol exist to mitigate dangerous courses of action. I consider much of the lore of the past, including the great blossoming of intellectual inquiry of the ancient Greeks and the moral teachings of the Hebrew prophets relevant to modern life because such knowledge is best not re-learned the hard way.

If you thought about things a little differently, you would see that Trump is our best hope towards restoring the proper role of government.

Quote:The very fact that the Deep State and the Press are so hysterically against him, while being just fine with Hillary, should indicate to you that it isn't moral uprightness that they are upholding. They are against him because he threatens their way of life. Their way of life is corrupt, with laws applied by whim, coming down like a ton of bricks on those they don't like, and completely absent for those in their group.

Quote:We need to sweep away the Deep State, and noone other than Trump is capable or desiring of doing that.

Quote:Just because the Deep State opposes someone that you (I think in error of your own actual views) also oppose, does not mean that you should want them to prevail.

Quote:You are also well aware that in the Fourth Turning, precedent and protocol get thrown away. Our choice is to make America Great Again, or to resemble something like Venezuela , which many on the left only a few years ago said we should emulate.

Quote:I understand you distrust Trump's motives, but I think you are mistaken about that.
The combination of Big Business and Big Government is something that Trump opposes. What he needs now are many more Republicans in Congress and the Senate, so as not to be beholden to whatever the 50th Senator demands, which might well be something he is against.

(02-10-2018, 05:21 PM)bobc Wrote:

(02-10-2018, 01:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have plenty of conservative values. I consider law and order necessary for a civil society because lawlessness turns democracy into a sham. I consider tradition a viable alternative for destructive trends in the name of progress, and even a means of finding ways to deal with economic and technological change. I strongly oppose the merger of Big Government and Big Business... and indeed I question whether Big Government is itself a virtue. Legal precedent, established process, and diplomatic protocol exist to mitigate dangerous courses of action. I consider much of the lore of the past, including the great blossoming of intellectual inquiry of the ancient Greeks and the moral teachings of the Hebrew prophets relevant to modern life because such knowledge is best not re-learned the hard way.

If you thought about things a little differently, you would see that Trump is our best hope towards restoring the proper role of government.

The very fact that the Deep State and the Press are so hysterically against him, while being just fine with Hillary, should indicate to you that it isn't moral uprightness that they are upholding. They are against him because he threatens their way of life. Their way of life is corrupt, with laws applied by whim, coming down like a ton of bricks on those they don't like, and completely absent for those in their group.

We need to sweep away the Deep State, and noone other than Trump is capable or desiring of doing that.

Quote:Just because the Deep State opposes someone that you (I think in error of your own actual views) also oppose, does not mean that you should want them to prevail.

You are also well aware that in the Fourth Turning, precedent and protocol get thrown away. Our choice is to make America Great Again, or to resemble something like Venezuela , which many on the left only a few years ago said we should emulate.

Quote:I understand you distrust Trump's motives, but I think you are mistaken about that.
The combination of Big Business and Big Government is something that Trump opposes. What he needs now are many more Republicans in Congress and the Senate, so as not to be beholden to whatever the 50th Senator demands, which might well be something he is against.

(02-10-2018, 06:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-10-2018, 05:21 PM)bobc Wrote:

(02-10-2018, 01:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have plenty of conservative values. I consider law and order necessary for a civil society because lawlessness turns democracy into a sham. I consider tradition a viable alternative for destructive trends in the name of progress, and even a means of finding ways to deal with economic and technological change. I strongly oppose the merger of Big Government and Big Business... and indeed I question whether Big Government is itself a virtue. Legal precedent, established process, and diplomatic protocol exist to mitigate dangerous courses of action. I consider much of the lore of the past, including the great blossoming of intellectual inquiry of the ancient Greeks and the moral teachings of the Hebrew prophets relevant to modern life because such knowledge is best not re-learned the hard way.

If you thought about things a little differently, you would see that Trump is our best hope towards restoring the proper role of government.

The very fact that the Deep State and the Press are so hysterically against him, while being just fine with Hillary, should indicate to you that it isn't moral uprightness that they are upholding. They are against him because he threatens their way of life. Their way of life is corrupt, with laws applied by whim, coming down like a ton of bricks on those they don't like, and completely absent for those in their group.

We need to sweep away the Deep State, and noone other than Trump is capable or desiring of doing that.

With the likely exception of some military and intelligence departments, the Deep State is just honorable folks going about the business of serving the people. It performs necessary and desirable functions, and keeps the real Deep State, namely corporate and big business America, from ruling over our lives to our detriment of everyone but themselves.

Quote:

Quote:Just because the Deep State opposes someone that you (I think in error of your own actual views) also oppose, does not mean that you should want them to prevail.

You are also well aware that in the Fourth Turning, precedent and protocol get thrown away. Our choice is to make America Great Again, or to resemble something like Venezuela , which many on the left only a few years ago said we should emulate.

I doubt many people on the Left in American thought we should emulate Venezuela. Trump and his followers are doing just that, by submitting and depending on a strong man type of rule.

Quote:

Quote:I understand you distrust Trump's motives, but I think you are mistaken about that.
The combination of Big Business and Big Government is something that Trump opposes. What he needs now are many more Republicans in Congress and the Senate, so as not to be beholden to whatever the 50th Senator demands, which might well be something he is against.

Trump supports his class of rich folks, and ONLY his class of rich folks. His sole motive is to enrich himself and his friends, and that's why he appoints alligators to his swamp, and opposes every regulation that keeps the people healthy and free. Trump is interested in one thing: corruption, that supports himself, his family and his rich friends. Everything he does supports this fact. What the people need now is many more Democrats in congress, so that his evil actions can be blocked, and the people can eventually re-enter the path of progress.

Quote:A former top aide to Donald Trump's presidential campaign will plead guilty to fraud-related charges within days — and has made clear to prosecutors that he would testify against Paul Manafort, the lawyer-lobbyist who once managed the campaign.

The change of heart by Trump's former deputy campaign manager Richard Gates, who had pleaded not guilty after being indicted in October on charges similar to Manafort's, was described in interviews by people familiar with the case.

"Rick Gates is going to change his plea to guilty,'' said a person with direct knowledge of the new developments, adding that the revised plea will be presented in federal court in Washington "within the next few days.''

That individual and others who discussed the matter spoke on condition of anonymity, citing a judge's gag order restricting comments about the case to the news media or public.

Quote:For a decade prior and on through Trump’s populist crusade, Paul Manafort and Rick Gates used offshore accounts, hidden income, falsified documents and laundered cash to maintain Manafort’s lush life of multiple homes, fine art, exquisite clothes and exotic travel, the government says.

In a richly detailed expanded indictment filed Thursday, special counsel Robert S. Mueller III parted the curtain shielding how two longtime Washington influence merchants worked the system. The government contends that Manafort, who was Trump’s campaign chairman for five months before being fired, used people all around him, from his buddy Gates to banks, clients and the IRS, to build a life of conspicuous consumption.

Quote:Prosecutors say that Manafort made monthly payments to the home improvement company, many of them in six-figure amounts, drawn from accounts that he and Gates controlled in Cyprus and the Grenadines, companies with names such as Global Highway Limited and Lucicle Consultants.
Another $655,000 allegedly went to a Hamptons landscaper over a 2½ -year period. A second landscaper got $165,000 over the following two years.

The indictment describes how money poured into the coffers of the businesses that could turn a house into a state-of-the-art entertainment complex. It alleges that a lighting and home entertainment company in Florida got $1.3 million from five Manafort-controlled entities. Over two years, an antique-rug shop in Alexandria collected $934,000 from Manafort’s Cypriot accounts, prosecutors say.

Manafort spent $849,000 at one men’s clothing shop in New York City in 34 visits over six years — an average of $25,000 per shopping venture. Another clothing store, in Beverly Hills, collected $520,000 from Manafort on nine dates over five years, about $58,000 per visit.