(11-11-2020, 11:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Biden's margin in the popular vote could easily look like a landslide number after all is said and done.

(11-11-2020, 11:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 10:41 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 02:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is strange that Nassau County NY should be listed as Republican. New York is only 80% counted, and its vote is well below what the polls said it should be. Probably a lot of mail-in votes are outstanding, and they are likely strongly Democratic and from NY and it suburbs. NY is counting those votes at a glacial speed, if at all. CA is not much faster; it is up to 92% today. But it's trend has been steady at 64%+ Biden. The uncounted votes here in CA are mostly drop-offs, so they may not be as lopsidedly Democratic. Mail-in voting started a month or so before election day and have been counted all along.

Long Island, essentially Nassau and Suffolk Counties, are or have been reliably Republican for decades.  LI is where the Republicans go to pout, after working in the City in cushy jobs.  The degree of cynicism isn't even lost on them.  They know they're being feckless.

I noticed that Biden's margin in New York State was almost 10% lower (so far) than Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in New York State in 2016. Not that it makes any practical significance, slow votes coming in from absentee voters throughout New York State (I can imagine Trump doing much better in such economically-nuked places as the Trails of Tears along I-86 and I-90). Figuring that late-counted votes could make the New York state margin (and the national margin) much larger than what we have so far, maybe we will end up with a national margin closer to perhaps Obama in 2008 than Obama in 2012. Votes are still being counted, and not only in New York.

Update : I checked the numbers for incomplete voting, and the two states least close to counting their votes are Alaska (75%)  and New York State (80%). States less than 97% away from fully counting their votes are   California (92%), Colorado (95%), Illinois (92%), Maryland (93%), New Jersey (93%), Ohio (96%), Louisiana (95%), South Dakota (94%), and Utah (95%). Except for perhaps Utah the outstanding votes are likely to raise Democratic margins or cut Republican margins nationwide. (South Dakota isn't going to make a difference,  and the outstanding votes in Trump wins Louisiana and Ohio are likely to come from D-leaning voters (big cities, and Democrats have tended to vote heavily in early or absentee voting even in counties that all in all went Republican.

Biden's margin in the popular vote could easily look like a landslide number after all is said and done.

(11-10-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-09-2020, 01:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-09-2020, 11:54 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-07-2020, 09:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: If Democrats are not prepared to play hardball from now on, they will be the losing party soon.

Ah, still in the argument and divide unravelling mindset, rather than the unify and solve crisis pattern.  

I see that you're still clinging to wishful/ hopeful rhetoric and the 3T way of  thinking. Guess what, the shoe is on the other foot and you shouldn't believe any of the Liberal love dove kumbuya BS that's being expressed by the Liberal media today. As I mentioned before, it's a race to the bottom and the Democrats are winning and neither Presidential candidate that you and every other Liberal minded fool  elected is strong enough to keep this country together.  Eric and I have been in agreement for several years, we just differ in who we see ( which side ) coming out on top so to speak.

Despair is a losing proposition. Trump has taken America into a moral cesspool, and getting us out of it won't be easy. It is wisest to look for the best in human nature and foster it. It won't be easy, as Donald Trump has poisoned much of what passes for thought in many of us. Maybe we will be fortunate and, free of seeing his moronic tweets, we won't keep looking at sewage. Looking at a scrap-heap is depressing, but at least that is one way to get the metal in decrepit machines and vehicles back into commercial activity and utility. Trump's invective offers us no possible benefit.

I expect Joe Biden, now arguably the last connection that we have to a time of GI politics, to recall what was right about the GI world, one that fostered inclusion even without such as an objective, one that promoted rationality, one that saw service as an objective instead of something to evade, fairness as a test for judgment, and convention as the fallback. Note well that much that is GI-like in the Millennial generation will be welcome now; Trump is about as uncharacteristic of a Civic/Hero generation as he can be. Joe Biden may be nothing new, but 'nothing new' is far superior to novel perversion. 

Donald Trump is the antithesis of a Civic/Hero world. I look at the scientist and see a process that depends upon truth disembodied from a personality. Someone like Einstein could say that e=mc^2 all that he wanted, but he found mathematical proof behind it and others found experimental backing beneath it. A sound economy works for people other than the economic elites. Capitalism is here to stay, but the rationale of capitalism is that people other than capitalists can fare well. Maybe we need some economic reforms such as changes in the tax laws that give a break to small business as opposed to bureaucratized behemoths that themselves are doomed to their internal rot and lack of innovation. 

Trump will be gone from the scene, and such nefarious influence as he has on American life will also vanish. We will probably have a safe and effective vaccine for COVID-19 fairly soon -- but not soon enough that people who do reckless things contract it and die. We are already past 240,000 deaths in America from COVID-19; it could have been far less had the President followed the lead of political leaders of both Parties, local officials, medical science, and even Big Business. Trump has damned us into another, more complete lockdown in time for the Super Bowl.  What Trump did wrong, Biden will do right... and we will be wearing masks. 

I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.

(11-11-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.

(11-11-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 11:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 10:41 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 02:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is strange that Nassau County NY should be listed as Republican. New York is only 80% counted, and its vote is well below what the polls said it should be. Probably a lot of mail-in votes are outstanding, and they are likely strongly Democratic and from NY and it suburbs. NY is counting those votes at a glacial speed, if at all. CA is not much faster; it is up to 92% today. But it's trend has been steady at 64%+ Biden. The uncounted votes here in CA are mostly drop-offs, so they may not be as lopsidedly Democratic. Mail-in voting started a month or so before election day and have been counted all along.

Long Island, essentially Nassau and Suffolk Counties, are or have been reliably Republican for decades.  LI is where the Republicans go to pout, after working in the City in cushy jobs.  The degree of cynicism isn't even lost on them.  They know they're being feckless.

I noticed that Biden's margin in New York State was almost 10% lower (so far) than Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in New York State in 2016. Not that it makes any practical significance, slow votes coming in from absentee voters throughout New York State (I can imagine Trump doing much better in such economically-nuked places as the Trails of Tears along I-86 and I-90). Figuring that late-counted votes could make the New York state margin (and the national margin) much larger than what we have so far, maybe we will end up with a national margin closer to perhaps Obama in 2008 than Obama in 2012. Votes are still being counted, and not only in New York.

Update : I checked the numbers for incomplete voting, and the two states least close to counting their votes are Alaska (75%)  and New York State (80%). States less than 97% away from fully counting their votes are   California (92%), Colorado (95%), Illinois (92%), Maryland (93%), New Jersey (93%), Ohio (96%), Louisiana (95%), South Dakota (94%), and Utah (95%). Except for perhaps Utah the outstanding votes are likely to raise Democratic margins or cut Republican margins nationwide. (South Dakota isn't going to make a difference,  and the outstanding votes in Trump wins Louisiana and Ohio are likely to come from D-leaning voters (big cities, and Democrats have tended to vote heavily in early or absentee voting even in counties that all in all went Republican.

Biden's margin in the popular vote could easily look like a landslide number after all is said and done.

Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.

(11-11-2020, 10:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-10-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Despair is a losing proposition. Trump has taken America into a moral cesspool, and getting us out of it won't be easy. It is wisest to look for the best in human nature and foster it. It won't be easy, as Donald Trump has poisoned much of what passes for thought in many of us. Maybe we will be fortunate and, free of seeing his moronic tweets, we won't keep looking at sewage. Looking at a scrap-heap is depressing, but at least that is one way to get the metal in decrepit machines and vehicles back into commercial activity and utility. Trump's invective offers us no possible benefit.

I expect Joe Biden, now arguably the last connection that we have to a time of GI politics, to recall what was right about the GI world, one that fostered inclusion even without such as an objective, one that promoted rationality, one that saw service as an objective instead of something to evade, fairness as a test for judgment, and convention as the fallback. Note well that much that is GI-like in the Millennial generation will be welcome now; Trump is about as uncharacteristic of a Civic/Hero generation as he can be. Joe Biden may be nothing new, but 'nothing new' is far superior to novel perversion. 

Donald Trump is the antithesis of a Civic/Hero world. I look at the scientist and see a process that depends upon truth disembodied from a personality. Someone like Einstein could say that e=mc^2 all that he wanted, but he found mathematical proof behind it and others found experimental backing beneath it. A sound economy works for people other than the economic elites. Capitalism is here to stay, but the rationale of capitalism is that people other than capitalists can fare well. Maybe we need some economic reforms such as changes in the tax laws that give a break to small business as opposed to bureaucratized behemoths that themselves are doomed to their internal rot and lack of innovation. 

Trump will be gone from the scene, and such nefarious influence as he has on American life will also vanish. We will probably have a safe and effective vaccine for COVID-19 fairly soon -- but not soon enough that people who do reckless things contract it and die. We are already past 240,000 deaths in America from COVID-19; it could have been far less had the President followed the lead of political leaders of both Parties, local officials, medical science, and even Big Business. Trump has damned us into another, more complete lockdown in time for the Super Bowl.  What Trump did wrong, Biden will do right... and we will be wearing masks. 

I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.

Dude, the people on your side who were rioting and looting and destroying peoples property are the antithesis of the Civic/Hero world. If you're going to keep posting partisan bullshit without thinking, I'm here to teach you and show you and everyone else how stupid and how pathetic and deplorable people like you, people like those above you and the people above them really are these days. WE HAVE FOUR YEARS TO USE YOU AS EXAMPLES TO TEACH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TO STAY AWAY FROM FOR THEIR OWN GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP BEING POLITICALLY/FINANCIALLY DECIMATED. You don't have a pot to piss in which means you get to live out the last years of your life living like a stray dog or being rounded up executed by some Blue Fascists that you thought were just garden variety socialists. You are now in the position that I've been telling you that you would be in when the time comes.

(11-11-2020, 10:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.

They said much the same of the governor of New York, FDR.  The reason FDR got elected in as decisive an election as Biden was because their predecessors went with the old values and did not address the primary problem the culture was facing.  Not a good idea in a crisis.  Yet, Hoover thought he shouldn’t try to regulate the economy or find jobs, and Trump aligned against solving the bug and racist violent policing.  For that matter, Buchanan was all in favor of slavery.

I figure that the time makes the man, not the other way around.  In a crisis the old values fail and are dumped on, but that cannot happen until they and the new values have been debated and a bad president who tries to implement the old values after their time is passing, and shows their weakness and failure.  At that point the grey champion steps in and oversees the new values.  He later gets the credit associated, perhaps not fully deserved.

I would not have picked Biden either, but right now he is set up in a good place.

(11-12-2020, 12:56 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 10:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-10-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Despair is a losing proposition. Trump has taken America into a moral cesspool, and getting us out of it won't be easy. It is wisest to look for the best in human nature and foster it. It won't be easy, as Donald Trump has poisoned much of what passes for thought in many of us. Maybe we will be fortunate and, free of seeing his moronic tweets, we won't keep looking at sewage. Looking at a scrap-heap is depressing, but at least that is one way to get the metal in decrepit machines and vehicles back into commercial activity and utility. Trump's invective offers us no possible benefit.

I expect Joe Biden, now arguably the last connection that we have to a time of GI politics, to recall what was right about the GI world, one that fostered inclusion even without such as an objective, one that promoted rationality, one that saw service as an objective instead of something to evade, fairness as a test for judgment, and convention as the fallback. Note well that much that is GI-like in the Millennial generation will be welcome now; Trump is about as uncharacteristic of a Civic/Hero generation as he can be. Joe Biden may be nothing new, but 'nothing new' is far superior to novel perversion. 

Donald Trump is the antithesis of a Civic/Hero world. I look at the scientist and see a process that depends upon truth disembodied from a personality. Someone like Einstein could say that e=mc^2 all that he wanted, but he found mathematical proof behind it and others found experimental backing beneath it. A sound economy works for people other than the economic elites. Capitalism is here to stay, but the rationale of capitalism is that people other than capitalists can fare well. Maybe we need some economic reforms such as changes in the tax laws that give a break to small business as opposed to bureaucratized behemoths that themselves are doomed to their internal rot and lack of innovation. 

Trump will be gone from the scene, and such nefarious influence as he has on American life will also vanish. We will probably have a safe and effective vaccine for COVID-19 fairly soon -- but not soon enough that people who do reckless things contract it and die. We are already past 240,000 deaths in America from COVID-19; it could have been far less had the President followed the lead of political leaders of both Parties, local officials, medical science, and even Big Business. Trump has damned us into another, more complete lockdown in time for the Super Bowl.  What Trump did wrong, Biden will do right... and we will be wearing masks. 

I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.

Dude, the people on your side who were rioting and looting and destroying peoples property are the antithesis of the Civic/Hero world. If you're going to keep posting partisan bullshit without thinking, I'm here to teach you and show you and everyone else how stupid and how pathetic and deplorable people like you, people like those above you and the people above them really are these days. WE HAVE FOUR YEARS TO USE YOU AS EXAMPLES TO TEACH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TO STAY AWAY FROM FOR THEIR OWN GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP BEING POLITICALLY/FINANCIALLY DECIMATED. You don't have a pot to piss in which means you get to live out the last years of your life living like a stray dog or being rounded up executed by some Blue Fascists that you thought were just garden variety socialists. You are now in the position that I've been telling you that you would be in when the time comes.

How do you know that the people 'rioting and looting' are on my side? I would betray such people to law enforcement and prosecution because security of person and property from overt crime is necessary for freedom and prosperity. I reported a drunk driver to local law enforcement in full awareness of what would happen to him were he arrested in the condition in which he was. I have suggested that people use their cameras, still or moving, to document riots that exploit lawful protests. 

I know enough to avoid people with hammer-and-sickle devices just as I know enough to avoid people who have swastikas or KKK emblems. I don't trust Antifa... and certainly not the Boogaloo Bois. 

We need to humanize capitalism so that we can avoid a proletarian revolution... you know, the sort that uses hammer-and-sickle devices.

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

(11-12-2020, 04:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 12:56 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [quote pid='59183' dateline='1605151673']
[quote pid='59137' dateline='1605023643']
I'll take wishful and hopeful rhetoric over despair. Pessimists all too often get what they expect and never like it.

Dude, the people on your side who were rioting and looting and destroying peoples property are the antithesis of the Civic/Hero world. If you're going to keep posting partisan bullshit without thinking, I'm here to teach you and show you and everyone else how stupid and how pathetic and deplorable people like you, people like those above you and the people above them really are these days. WE HAVE FOUR YEARS TO USE YOU AS EXAMPLES TO TEACH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TO STAY AWAY FROM FOR THEIR OWN GOOD BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP BEING POLITICALLY/FINANCIALLY DECIMATED. You don't have a pot to piss in which means you get to live out the last years of your life living like a stray dog or being rounded up executed by some Blue Fascists that you thought were just garden variety socialists. You are now in the position that I've been telling you that you would be in when the time comes.

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

(11-12-2020, 03:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

Trump got some destruction done. Yes, he got things done. I hope Biden can get some things done, starting with reversing as much as he can of what Trump got "done." Or, we're "done" for.

I agree with Bob and even more with David.

(11-12-2020, 03:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

Trump got some destruction done. Yes, he got things done. I hope Biden can get some things done, starting with reversing as much as he can of what Trump got "done." Or, we're "done" for.

I agree with Bob and even more with David.

(11-12-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason  and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.

(11-12-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason  and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.

(11-13-2020, 05:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason  and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.

I tend to think that it was ideology that has played the major role. No doubt people's lifestyle in cities tends to condition people there to be less persuaded by the self-reliance ideology than people's lifestyle in rural areas. But the self-reliance ("neo-liberal, free-market") ideology has been clearly spelled out, and framed as opposition to government. Even though conservatives don't really oppose government when it comes to the things they want government to do for them, like put up various barriers to other countries, or supporting "law and order" and repressing drugs and outlawing abortion and supporting wars and the military and imposing their religion on us and stuff like that. But the temptation of the slogan is still very persuasive, because conservatives vote on their fears and their wrong values and don't bother too much with logic. So "less government", "government is the problem", means government should not be requiring a conservative to have his hard-earned, self-reliantly-earned money "stolen" from him to pay for those "lazy" (you know who) people who refuse to work and are dependent on that problematic government. And the scare-words "socialism" and "law and order" and "2nd amendment" are most effective in arousing the fears that stoke this self-reliance ideology.

Quote:And this ideology makes the believers in self-reliance and independence feel better and feel superior to those "dependent" liberals. This is Classic Xer's constant refrain. I think it is ideology, and it is also reinforced by lifestyles and greater access to culture, education and diversity in urban areas as opposed to the parochial and provincial atmosphere in rural areas, plus the sheer racial, ethnic and religious diversity in cities, and especially in many coastal and border areas that are closer to the outside world and more connected to it than the contiguous red-state heartland is. But there are also people who believe in either ideology who live in the opposing region too, although not too many in the most rural and most urban areas.

Quote:Before the sixties, and especially a century or so ago, heartland people were often genuine populists who voted for what they would now call "socialist" programs. The blacks were well-repressed and didn't alarm people with their liberation demands yet. We've always had fears of immigrants now and then, especially non-white ones. But sometimes, like in the "great" America Trump extols, it was pretty-well suppressed. There have been counter-cultures all along, but in the sixties maybe they took their liberation farther and spread it wider than before. Feminism and gay rights especially threatened the male ego. And the Cold War also had solidified anti-communist and anti-socialist opinions. So as the new stronger forces of liberation arose, somehow the neo-liberal ideology appealed to the red state and red county folks more now. And when the charming faux-macho actor appeared, they flocked to his great communication. And now they love the swindler TV star who satirically and openly proclaims his selfish disregard for others, because he gives unrepentant voice to their own similar feelings and prejudices.

(11-11-2020, 10:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who cares? Biden won. So, what's so great about Bumbling Biden? I didn't see anything great about Biden. So, what do you know about Biden? Was Biden ever great? Well, I have to say is he better be great because that's what the Democrats are going to keep the country and fulfill all of its obligations or find themselves being depleted and directly competing with America itself. We're going to win dude because nature always wins.

They said much the same of the governor of New York, FDR.  The reason FDR got elected in as decisive an election as Biden was because their predecessors went with the old values and did not address the primary problem the culture was facing.  Not a good idea in a crisis.  Yet, Hoover thought he shouldn’t try to regulate the economy or find jobs, and Trump aligned against solving the bug and racist violent policing.  For that matter, Buchanan was all in favor of slavery.

I figure that the time makes the man, not the other way around.  In a crisis the old values fail and are dumped on, but that cannot happen until they and the new values have been debated and a bad president who tries to implement the old values after their time is passing, and shows their weakness and failure.  At that point the grey champion steps in and oversees the new values.  He later gets the credit associated, perhaps not fully deserved.

I would not have picked Biden either, but right now he is set up in a good place.