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+---- Thread: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory (/thread-401.html)
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Ragnarök_62 - 02-07-2017
(02-06-2017, 11:31 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:(02-06-2017, 09:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Everything You Need to Know About Steve Bannon, Breitbart, & RussiaReading "The Naked Communist" and especially "The Naked Capitalist" it's apparent that the twisted "horizontal" view was already being developed by the Skousens, themselves devotees of Quigley and various long discredited anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
By Quaid
Friday Nov 18, 2016 · 11:07 AM PST
Steve Bannon, Breitbart, & The Alt-Right Is Working With Russia and Here is Proof
"The global elites" = The Jews, etc.
It's all a bunch of bull shit. Dangerous bull shit.
Jew baiting stuff is silly.
Man, what a whacky world!
1. Yes, we need strong borders. Like I said, I'm diseaseophobic.
2. Folks' beliefs shouldn't be meddled with. Folks should be able to choose what religion or no religion like the Constitution sez. Sheesh we're rehashing that??????? Folks' should also have total free speech , again. Damn snowflakes and employers need to butt out.
3. Mixed economy:
4.Stuff like health care, basic housing, and food should be set at a livable level.
5. End all wars of choice. Blowing up and droning brown people is stupid. Let them do their own thing. The world does not need to be built in our image.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Marypoza - 02-07-2017
(02-07-2017, 12:11 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:(02-06-2017, 11:31 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:(02-06-2017, 09:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Everything You Need to Know About Steve Bannon, Breitbart, & RussiaReading "The Naked Communist" and especially "The Naked Capitalist" it's apparent that the twisted "horizontal" view was already being developed by the Skousens, themselves devotees of Quigley and various long discredited anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
By Quaid
Friday Nov 18, 2016 · 11:07 AM PST
Steve Bannon, Breitbart, & The Alt-Right Is Working With Russia and Here is Proof
"The global elites" = The Jews, etc.
It's all a bunch of bull shit. Dangerous bull shit.
Jew baiting stuff is silly.
Man, what a whacky world!
1. Yes, we need strong borders. Like I said, I'm diseaseophobic.
2. Folks' beliefs shouldn't be meddled with. Folks should be able to choose what religion or no religion like the Constitution sez. Sheesh we're rehashing that??????? Folks' should also have total free speech , again. Damn snowflakes and employers need to butt out.
3. Mixed economy:
4.Stuff like health care, basic housing, and food should be set at a livable level.
5. End all wars of choice. Blowing up and droning brown people is stupid. Let them do their own thing. The world does not need to be built in our image.
-- ok so is there any reason why Rags can't run the world?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 02-07-2017
Quote:Reading "The Naked Communist" and especially "The Naked Capitalist" it's apparent that the twisted "horizontal" view was already being developed by the Skousens, themselves devotees of Quigley and various long discredited anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
"The global elites" = The Jews, etc.
It's all a bunch of bull shit. Dangerous bull shit.
Carroll Quigley? Are you claiming that he was anti-Semitic? If so, please cite me something anti-Semitic that he wrote. Pretty sure the elites he was talking about were almost all WASPS.
Nor do I remember him having been "discredited". Citation?
I mean, is a guy who sees Russians/Chinese behind everything that happens ("Where are my car keys! DAMN THOSE COMMIE BASTARDS!") really criticizing other people for being conspiracy theorists?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 02-07-2017
(02-07-2017, 04:32 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:(02-07-2017, 02:27 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:Quote:Reading "The Naked Communist" and especially "The Naked Capitalist" it's apparent that the twisted "horizontal" view was already being developed by the Skousens, themselves devotees of Quigley and various long discredited anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
"The global elites" = The Jews, etc.
It's all a bunch of bull shit. Dangerous bull shit.
Carroll Quigley? Are you claiming that he was anti-Semitic? If so, please cite me something anti-Semitic that he wrote. Pretty sure the elites he was talking about were almost all WASPS.
Nor do I remember him having been "discredited". Citation?
I mean, is a guy who sees Russians/Chinese behind everything that happens ("Where are my car keys! DAMN THOSE COMMIE BASTARDS!") really criticizing other people for being conspiracy theorists?
Please note the "and" operand. Quigley was not anti Semitic as far as I can tell. And certainly he was an academic, in contrast with the crackpot Skousen gang (who can't shoot straight). Nonetheless, his model of an "Atlantacist" cabal running the whole world - hell, that is right up Neo-Nazis' alleys plus these days also is in synch with Eurasianist beliefs and certain radical Islamic ones. Quigley cannot be blamed but unfortunately many brigands have found what he wrote to be some sort of cause celebre and twisted it to their own designs.
So, are you disputing the veracity of his claims directly, or just indirectly by playing guilt-by association semantic games?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 02-07-2017
Quote:I dispute his and anyone else' notions of a so called "Atlantacist" cabal.
Where exactly is the "Atlantac Ocean" again?
Once is a typo, twice is just ridiculous.
Quote:That's right in there with the "bankster" smear.
Who exactly are these banksters?
Presumably people who work at banks. Although I believe the correct nomenclature is "bankers".
Considering the financial industry has more than doubled in size as a share of the economy since 1980, money is apparently speech, and the Gini ratio for the US has soared, I don't believe it unreasonable to refer to the owners of large agglomerations of financial capital as a distinct class.
Quote:Anything that creates an artificial boundary between "the salt of the Earth" and so called "elites" is highly suspect. Things don't really work that way.
Yeah, I am going to have to disagree on that one. Hierarchy, social stratification, and inequalities in wealth and access to power/resources are pretty standard in human societies. The Pareto rule is a thing. So, I am going to stick with Pareto, Mosca, Quigley, Weber, Burnham, Dye, et al. and the evidence from, you know, all of human history versus random guy on the Internet.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Eric the Green - 02-07-2017
Come on Mr. X, are you going to allow a situation in which I have to agree with SomeGuy instead of You?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 02-07-2017
(02-07-2017, 09:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Come on Mr. X, are you going to allow a situation in which I have to agree with SomeGuy instead of You?
Come on in, Eric, the water's fine!
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Ragnarök_62 - 02-07-2017
(02-07-2017, 09:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Come on Mr. X, are you going to allow a situation in which I have to agree with SomeGuy instead of You?
Sorry, but your agreement with anyone is not important.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Eric the Green - 02-07-2017
(02-07-2017, 10:35 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:(02-07-2017, 09:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Come on Mr. X, are you going to allow a situation in which I have to agree with SomeGuy instead of You?
Sorry, but your agreement with anyone is not important.
Sorry, your statement that my agreement with anyone is not important, is not important.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Ragnarök_62 - 02-07-2017
(02-07-2017, 11:12 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(02-07-2017, 10:35 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:(02-07-2017, 09:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Come on Mr. X, are you going to allow a situation in which I have to agree with SomeGuy instead of You?
Sorry, but your agreement with anyone is not important.
Sorry, your statement that my agreement with anyone is not important, is not important.
Sorry, your opinion about my statement[s] are not important.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 03-02-2017
Quote:Those who tend to loudly cry out "fake news" in certain areas of operation may in fact be actual producers of fake news.
You mean like the MSM?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 03-02-2017
(03-02-2017, 12:49 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:Quote:Those who tend to loudly cry out "fake news" in certain areas of operation may in fact be actual producers of fake news.
You mean like the MSM?
I read a good article today in my local paper about the push by conventional outlets to make news 'interesting', and how that's perverted the news business in general. The author made a good point. The news is now presented in a style that's more entertaining, by being more pointed. He argued that they still stuck to the truth, but tended to be more selective than they have been --- sins of omission, I guess.
So is accurate but incomplete news "fake"? I don't think that's the right word, since we are awash in truly fabricated news. It's still not what it used to be ... boring and nuanced. I grew up with the old style news. I miss it.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 03-02-2017
So instead of out and out fabrications (which, as I have already pointed out to you in another thread, have occurred in reputable outlets), there's just a bunch of selective reporting of facts, innuendo, gossip, and opinion masquerading as fact?
This is your defense?
PS Since this is the "OMG! PUTIN HAKKED TEH ELEKTION!" thread, can anybody explain explain to me what the Sessions hooplah is about?
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 03-02-2017
(03-02-2017, 04:12 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: So instead of out and out fabrications (which, as I have already pointed out to you in another thread, have occurred in reputable outlets), there's just a bunch of selective reporting of facts, innuendo, gossip, and opinion masquerading as fact?
This is your defense?
The point of my referenced comment (not mine, though I share the opinion) was limited to selective reporting. Innuendo and gossip tend to be products of the lesser media, like TMZ and, oh yeah, Brietbart. Opinion is OK, if it's on the Opinion page.
SomeGuy Wrote:PS Since this is the "OMG! PUTIN HAKKED TEH ELEKTION!" thread, can anybody explain explain to me what the Sessions hooplah is about?
As I noted on another thread, perjury is a felony, and the AG is the last person on earth who should be perjuring himself. Loretta Lynch got mauled for just meeting with Bill Clinton for a few minutes, and she never denied it.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 03-02-2017
Quote:The point of my referenced comment (not mine, though I share the opinion) was limited to selective reporting. Innuendo and gossip tend to be products of the lesser media, like TMZ and, oh yeah, Brietbart.
No, not really. Not anymore.
Quote:Opinion is OK, if it's on the Opinion page.
The point is that it isn't. I gave you an example on the fake news thread.
Quote:As I noted on another thread, perjury is a felony, and the AG is the last person on earth who should be perjuring himself. Loretta Lynch got mauled for just meeting with Bill Clinton for a few minutes, and she never denied it.
Even Franken is veering away from calling it perjury. I looked at the transcripts, I am not sure you have a case for it.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - Bob Butler 54 - 03-02-2017
I never took the Hillary e-mails all that seriously, but of late is is fashionable for extreme partisans to blow stuff all out of proportion. One just has to insert a little bit of innuendo into every new cycle and it might outrun the Energizer Bunny. There are reasonable reasons for the conversation with the Russians, but one can also imagine treason if one feels like doing so. It becomes guilty until proved innocent.
Joe McCarthy's 1950s era Red Menace act was more sinister, but in terms of accusations being thrown around with much hyperbole, things are getting out of hand. Still, after the Hillary e-mails, the progressives likely think the rules have been changed, and turnabout becomes fair play.
Fake news... Big lies... You might achieve tactical victories on a day by day news cycle by news cycle basis. I have a feeling that Truth is taking long term damage. This sort of thing isn't likely the sort of habit we want our media and politicians to get into.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - SomeGuy - 03-02-2017
Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - TeacherinExile - 03-02-2017
(03-02-2017, 04:47 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
And here's a snippet from my favorite "socialist rag." (Not that I'm a socialist: I rather prefer Marxist critiques to Marxist prescriptions, as they have played out in reality.)
"The Slow Collapse of Imperial Republics"
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/01/trump-russia-election-legitimacy-imperial-power/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=email_this&utm_source=email
...If people could step outside their partisan selves for one minute, I’d ask you to consider the following fact as yet another sign of late imperial disjunction: For the last eight years, we’ve had a president who half the country thinks is Muslim, Kenyan-born. For the next four, maybe eight, years, we will have a president who half the country thinks is the Manchurian Candidate, Russian-born. I can’t think of a greater symptom of the weird fever dream that is the American empire, whereby the most powerful state on earth imagines, over a twelve to sixteen year period, that its elected leaders hail from the far reaches of its various antagonisms.
What ties these events together is either that they cast serious doubt on the democratic legitimacy of American institutions [including the Fourth Estate] or that they drag those institutions into the delegitimating mud of the most sordid scandals...
Most Americans--and certainly those who voted for Trump--could give a good goddamn about "fake news," wherever it originates...
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 03-02-2017
(03-02-2017, 04:33 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:David Horn Wrote:The point of my referenced comment (not mine, though I share the opinion) was limited to selective reporting. Innuendo and gossip tend to be products of the lesser media, like TMZ and, oh yeah, Breitbart.
No, not really. Not anymore.
Are you arguing that Breitbart is now a legitimate news source, or you just like the juicy news on TMZ?
SomeGuy Wrote:David Horn Wrote:Opinion is OK, if it's on the Opinion page.
The point is that it isn't. I gave you an example on the fake news thread.
Where?
SomeGuy Wrote:David Horn Wrote:As I noted on another thread, perjury is a felony, and the AG is the last person on earth who should be perjuring himself. Loretta Lynch got mauled for just meeting with Bill Clinton for a few minutes, and she never denied it.
Even Franken is veering away from calling it perjury. I looked at the transcripts, I am not sure you have a case for it.
Al Franken isn't a lawyer. If I was in his position, I wouldn't make that case either. Several lawyer/legislators have made the case, which is a much better option.
In any case, is it more or less egregious than lying about a blowjob. That seems to be the standard.
RE: If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory - David Horn - 03-02-2017
(03-02-2017, 04:47 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
Are you arguing that turnabout is not fair play? I know Bob is always on the side of compromise, but is letting this pass a compromise or a free pass to do anything?
We have a Congressional majority that got to be one by saying no to everything, and now wants the minority to let bygones be bygones. If the Democrats lie down and agree to let this pass, they will have performed the greatest self-neutering in history. Remember, the Democrats let the eight years of Clinton investigations go and tried to work with GWB. That didn't work at all well. I don't see them doing that twice, and they stand on pretty firm ground with Trump and the current Congress. They may lose, but they have to go down fighting if they ever expect to be taken seriously again.